Lord_Urbonov Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Good point Aias. So little is known about the Legion that their intentions, short and longterm can only be skeptical at best. Even with my theory, I personally have no idea as to how or what the Alpha Legion would do after the fall of Horus and the Emperor. Did they turn full traitor, are they loyalist still, was their a schism, do they make mankins stronger by attacking their weakness? Who knows. Strengthening them by attacking their weaknesses? Hey! That's Cypher's bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aias Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Strengthening them by attacking their weaknesses? Hey! That's Cypher's bit! Maybe that's the Dark Angel's real secret. There are no more DA... they're all just big-L Loyalist Alpha Legion infiltrators who took the place of the chapter when it fell to Chaos. Unforgiven, Fallen... they're all just the AL making their big play. Anyway, enough of that silliness, though. Back on topic. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Evar Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Strengthening them by attacking their weaknesses? Hey! That's Cypher's bit! Maybe that's the Dark Angel's real secret. There are no more DA... they're all just big-L Loyalist Alpha Legion infiltrators who took the place of the chapter when it fell to Chaos. Unforgiven, Fallen... they're all just the AL making their big play. Anyway, enough of that silliness, though. Back on topic. Dare you to post that theory in the DA forum. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Strengthening them by attacking their weaknesses? Hey! That's Cypher's bit! Maybe that's what some of the other Fallen do as well. Hell, maybe they, Cypher, some of the Alpha Legion, and the Horusian sect of the Inquisition are all working together to strengthen the Imperium by attacking its weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Skaav Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 A very thought provoking peice I was recently reading through my 4th Edition Chaos Codex (the one before the current edition came out, it's the one with the black border intsead of the one that looks similar to the new Space Marine codex) and way on page 40, there is a whole page of rules for Alpha Legion, using Chaos Cultists and the like, and this rule for Daemons... I quote from the codex as follows... "DAEMONS: The Alpha Legion cannot normally rely on Daemons remaining stable for long enough for them to be useful because they are so far from the eye of terror, when operating on a world there they "secured" the belief of Chaos cults, they will gladly add daemons to the diversity of their attacks. Because of this the Alpha Legion may include Daemon Packs, but only Cultist Units may carry Icons to summon them." Note I've underlined the part I think is the most important in relation to this thread. Yes it is true that the above rule says that the Alpha Legion can use Daemons, but it's the bit that says they can't carry the Icons to use them that at the time made me wonder why and it does say that they will "gladly add" Daemons to their army, but with what this thread is saying, is this just one of their many ploys? Until I read your whole post, it didn't make much sense as such, but it is opening my mind to many more possibilities in regards to the Alpha Legion, and Cultists are very much the Alphas personal agents and scouts before they arrive, as well as plausible recruiters. Ok, so I myself am using an actual rule here as my example, but it has to be based upon some form of background doesn't it? Also yes it was a rule written before the Horus Heresy books came into the shops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lay Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Strengthening them by attacking their weaknesses? Hey! That's Cypher's bit! Maybe that's what some of the other Fallen do as well. Hell, maybe they, Cypher, some of the Alpha Legion, and the Horusian sect of the Inquisition are all working together to strengthen the Imperium by attacking its weaknesses. If attacking weak spots strengthens the Imperium, then how can you hope to weaken it by attacking it at all? At Lay, remember that that is only one explanation givin by one source. There are dozens of different recounts of the same event over 20 years worth of rulebooks and codexes, all of which take the specifics on unique paths. I don't recall that many different versions of that event, nor do they differ that much. It's actually pretty much in line with fluff bits that had been around since Realms of Chaos and more recent fluff concerning the other legions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 If attacking weak spots strengthens the Imperium, then how can you hope to weaken it by attacking it at all? The idea behind a Horusian philosophy is not to destroy the Imperium. The way they strengthen the Imperium is by, in one way or another, exposing its weaknesses so that the Imperium will strengthen those areas. Say a world's PDF is insufficiently trained or numbered. A Horusian Inquisitor, Cypher, certain Fallen, certain Alpha Legionnaires might inspire through any number of available means internal or external foes to attack in such a way that they were repelled, but that the Imperium realized 'oh snap, we gotta strengthen this planet's PDF.' Thus, through the filling of these chinks in the Imperium's proverbial armor, the whole grows strong. Now, if one of these Horusians did not regulate the strength of the attack (through what means they could procure) properly, or if the attack were made outside their influence, our aforementioned world might fall. At least, this is the gist of the Horusian philosophy as I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted October 11, 2008 Author Share Posted October 11, 2008 One thing to add. I finally got a chance to look at the new Space Marine Codex today and turned to see the fluff section for the fall of Horus and the siege. Interestingly enough, All it says is when it seemed that Chaos was about to push through the inner walls, that the Emperor and the Loyalists took the fight to the traitors on their own ship, and from there claimed victory. No mention of shields, no mention of Horus or his situation, no explanation at all as to "how" he took the fight to the ship. If anything, it just shows how different a viewpoint the loyalists take it. Should that only be read, one might get the impression that the attack to Horus' ship was just that, a planned attack to win the siege with no "way in" needed to accomplish. That it was all under control and that victory from the Loyalists was never in doubt, as was this ability to get onto Horus' personal ship. Really. Truly the wheels continue to turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Think we can put that down to perspective. There has always been a mention of the shields- always. I guess Smurfs just needed to say they had an IWIN button the whole time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord arkon Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 You certainly put forward a good, convincing arguement and I for one love fluff but still I'm not sure personally, it does make perfect sense and is a very valid way in which you interpted the very open Legion book but still I'm not sure at this point so I'm still gonna stick with the official take of things until otherwise stated but thankyou very much this is obviously well thought out and certainly has put a new spin on things for me! I look forward to any future ideas of yours! :tu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalfedan Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 This may sound odd, but I BELIEVE IT. I don't quite know why but i just seems very possibly true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 I think i have to agree here, i think it could easily be true and i will go so far as to say its the best constructed arguments i think i have seen on these forums. I have always loved the Alpha Legion and their methods but, to read your posts Candleshoes, if it were to be true, they are the Imperiums saviours and my respect for them would increase ten fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAtrox Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Well, this is a lot better than that theory about Horus being on the Golden Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Skaav Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Well, this is a lot better than that theory about Horus being on the Golden Throne. I know this is literally going off topic but... :cuss! HORUS ON THE GOLDEN THRONE?!?! I might have to look into this further! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAtrox Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I know this is literally going off topic but... :cuss! HORUS ON THE GOLDEN THRONE?!?! I might have to look into this further! Its trash. Make a separate post if you want the details. I'm sure B&C members are more familiar with it than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 I am at the moment working on the last details for a Roboute Guillman theory, where had Horus not rose up to chaotic power and unleashed Civil War upon Mankind, it would have been Roboute through true civil war (not chaos stemmed) who would have caused chaos to be unleashed. Itrigued? You'll have to wait friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Urbonov Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I am at the moment working on the last details for a Roboute Guillman theory, where had Horus not rose up to chaotic power and unleashed Civil War upon Mankind, it would have been Roboute through true civil war (not chaos stemmed) who would have caused chaos to be unleashed. Itrigued? You'll have to wait friends. /Mind Explodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I am at the moment working on the last details for a Roboute Guillman theory, where had Horus not rose up to chaotic power and unleashed Civil War upon Mankind, it would have been Roboute through true civil war (not chaos stemmed) who would have caused chaos to be unleashed. Itrigued? You'll have to wait friends. not to burst your bubble, but another thread here "if loyalists became traitors project*" already had this theory bounced around quite a bit i think...both chaos guilliman and regular not chaos but still pretty cranky guilliman. *still on the fron page of this sub-forum. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAtrox Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The Ultramarines are already going against a lot of the ideas that Guilliman put forward. They have their own empire out there on the Eastern Fringes. Can you imagine the sheer number of soldiers they could muster? Not to mention if they got all their successors to back them? Ultramar might was well be an autonomous state - and this is exactly the kind of thing that was preached against. Marine commanders should not be in positions of that much power and if it wasn't for the Hive Fleets I think you'd see Calgar flexing his influence much more often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Or perhaps Sicarius when he takes over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorns Padawan Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Candleshoes: I sincerly look forward to reading your next theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deus lo volt Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Outstanding post bro! One of the best I've read in a long time ;) As far as your next theory, just remember: The Eyes of Ultramar are now upon you! :lol: ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelestialSon Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Isn't this whole theory, and all theories presented here putting too much faith in prophecy? If anything, the Horus Heresy demonstrates time and time again that prophecy always leads to a dead end. The fact of the matter is that Horus was killed because Dorn was the better commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I wouldnt go far enough to say Dorn was a better commander than Horus, i would say in the end Horus died because because he proved to the Emperor he finally crossed a unforgivable line. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamafore Posted December 31, 2008 Share Posted December 31, 2008 It is often looked at that within the novel Legion, there are only 2 truth holders, that is to say, 2 bodies in which the audience can look to for unquestioned honesty without fault. 2 bodies that in a book of Lies and Deceit, are the only way for us to gauge what is real and what is not. These bodies are Dinas Chayne, and the Cabal itself. Chayne is ruled by unchangeable values where to lie is as alien as being able to sprout wings. To him, lies are a waste of time and have no value whatsoever for good or for ill. He is essentially un-corruptable. The Cabal, the actual council (not Grammaticus) is truthful in the sense that lying to humans, is a step towards giving them the benefit of equality on a galactic level… and since the Cabal despises the simplicity of man, they must be dealt with in a brutal, honest fashion. Lies are meant to deceive equals, and they certainly wouldn’t even speak to men unless it was to say something of worth. Plus, Abnett himself has on several occasions made it known to readers that these 2 character groups were the bearers of truth in his novel, it really isn’t rocket science for us to put 2 and 2 together. First, I would like to remind you, as you yourself have pointed out, The Cabal are aliens. Mr. Abnett has done a very good job in the past showing us, that aliens 9even sometimes post huamns like marines and their chaos counterparts) think differently then we humans do. Eldar, for instance, are not just effeminate humans with pointy ears and a fetish for tight armour. Their concepts of truth and lies may not exactly be the same as ours. With all due respect, I think you are making some assumptions to their thinking here. Now, take the information overload that is Legion into your head, and see it from the eyes of those 2 sources alone. The Cabal give us the most important information. Understand that if you accept that the cabal is a truth holder, YOU MUST believe everything they say, not just the bits and pieces that make sense to you. You don’t get to pick and choose. Why not? The easiest and best way to lie is to mix in truths. While some of what they said could be true, it doesn't mean everything they say is on the straight and narrow. ...they offer the 2 outcomes of the Horus Heresy, and ask the Alpha Legion to choose their place, there is choice involved. The choice to make the path of the events your own, but end up in the one of the outcomes, it doesn’t have to be cut and dried. The choice was: 1) Horus wins, in his self loathing he immolates man and extinguishes it as a vessel for chaos. The galaxy is allowed to live due to humanity’s sacrifice. 2) The Emperor wins, is placed within the golden throne and bring Horus down with him, stagnation occurs and the worlds are torn by war for thousands of years, allowing chaos to slowly triumph The acuity followed this, and the future played out for them, they lived a lifetime in an instant. You ALL think Alpharius/Omegon chose option 1, SOULY based on the principal that the Alpha Legion fought on Horus’ side. You are wrong. The Primarchs never answered out loud. The Primarchs chose the 2nd option. They chose against the prolonged life of the Xenos of the galaxy and chose the continual struggle against evil, even in the face of certain defeat. You Heard Me. The Alpha Legion chose the 2nd option... ..If any of you cannon guys out there know, to read all the editions rule books, army books, and fluff articles… is a lot to handle… and surprisingly enough, the articles tend to differ on the specifics, especially when seen from different accounts, both loyalist and traitor. Here is where you become a historian in a way, and decide for yourself the best course of interpretation on controversial material. To say that everything that was written about the Siege of Terra is presented in the same voice, demeanour, and outlook is foolish. It is a myth, there to be interpreted by us. This is my interpretation on over 2 decades worth of material. Their moment came during the worst point of the Siege of Terra. With broken walls, and enclosing Traitors, the siege was in its last hour. We know that Horus’ ship lowered its shields. This is a fact, but as to why it was lowered is up to incredible debate. Some say he did it out of an emotional purpose, as a last chance, as a mock, you may look at it in any way, for this is one of the pivotal moments in the Heresy that is openly up to us to wonder about. To me, Horus doesn’t seem to show any remorse, regret or emotion until the moment he is about to strike down the Emperor. This is the first time, and because of that, it wasn’t him who lowered his shields… it was the Alpha Legion. They are responsible for betraying Horus, lowering his shield, and giving Man, the Imperium, and the Emperor the only way to Victory. They gave up Horus. This is where i think your theory goes off the rails. Again, I think you are making a few assumptions and drawing erroneous conclusions from them. While you make a good judgment on the Alpha legion's character, I think you are mistaken in the reasoning behind their choice. It is mentioned several times in the novel that they do not believe the Utopian vision of the Imperium can triumph, they believe that war will continue forever. If they did indeed choose to fight against chaos (as yo suggest they did, by becoming double agents), according to the vision they had been shown, while they would have won, they know it would only end in eventual defeat as chaos would slowly devour the galaxy. Hardly a choice for a legion apparently renowned for looking at the big picture. You may feel your interpretation of their choice validated by the possibility of them being the ones who lowered the shields on Horus's ship. I find this difficult to believe for several reasons. 1. It is very important to consider Horus and his state of mind at teh battle of Terra. Horus was a very pridefil leader, it made him a good one, but was also possibly a flaw. The attack on Terra was his best chance to topple the Emperor. The thought of defeat was inconceivable for him, because it would mean that, even with all the advantages he was still unable to defeat his father. He would never has considered retreating and attacking, because that would be admitting that he had lost even when everything has gone exactly as he had planned. Thus, when the whispers of the Dark angels and Space wolves approaching forces (and I'm mentally recalling what it said in several re-tellings of the story) "he knew his gamble had failed. Even at this point, he still believed he was stronger, that he could win. If the Emperor died, it wouldn't matter if the DA or Space wolves arrived, he would have won. In 90% of the tellings of the story I've heard, that's why he lowered his shields, a last shot at the Emperor before he was proven the lesser by defeat. It was never about regret, as i doubt there was any left in Horus at all. 2. Logistically, as another poster pointed out, the majority (if not all) of historical accounts place the Alpha legion no where near Holy Terra (much like the ultramrines, Word Bearers, and the survivors of the drop site massacres.) 3.There is no mention anywhere of someone bringing down Horus shield's against his will, it has always been reported as intentional. GW's lore can at times be convoluted, but for a major plot point like to be true without any hints what so ever seems like a bit of a stretch. Finally I would like to speculate a bit on the vision the Cabal showed, because I do agree something is a bit amiss. If I am correct, and the alpha legion Did choose to fight for Horus to kill chaos in the long run, there is a problem right there. They did fight for Horus, and yet Horus still lost. That was not one of the outcomes shown by the cabal. This means either of two things. They were wrong, or they lied (damn xenos!). Personally, the only visions I put any stock in are those that come from Eldred. The space elf nicked Abbadon, so he's got my respect. Thought for the Day: All wars are Crimes. I don't recall that they said if they joined Horus, that he would win, just what would happen if he won, or if the Emperor won. The impression I got was if they joined either side, that side would have a better chance at winning. It would appear they sided with Horus, but Horus still lost. Such is the fortune of war, you see it several times in today's military history, just can't think of any examples right now. Ask me when its not 3am here. Also, I realize its in oxymoron, but it IS possible to tell the truth and still be lying through your teeth. Its just difficult to do, especially when your doing it to someone who looks at the little details. It's mainly all a matter of perspective. Something else bothers me with your theory Candleshoes, if we just look at Legion, bad thing to do, its is not CLEAR why they did anything. As you said their choice is not voiced at the end of the book, just when asked by the shipmaster, I think been awhile since I read it, Alpharius just says and I quote, "For the Emperor." Please bear in mind that I have not read any of the codexes most of my information comes from Lexicanium and novels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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