MuGGzy Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I just finished The Flight of the Eisenstein and I am still REALLY enjoying this series. I have been reading the BL books since the late 80s/Early 90s when the couple of books were printed in 5X8" format paperbacks and have rarely enjoyed a series of books more from them. Anyways, upon closing this latest book I realized that they basically showed us how the Inquisition starts. I was giddy when I realized they were basically saying that Garro and "the 70" were the founding group for the Inquisition (along with the First Saint, and some Silent Sisters). As cool as this idea is, it seems to conflict a bit with established fluff in regards too the Astartes participation in the Ordos does it not? I mean I suppose in 10K years the original Ordo Astartes (previously DG) could have all diead after laying the foundations for the seperate Ordos, but as it stands, we don't see many (any?) Astartes functioning SOLELY as Ordo forces. Even the Grey Knights are a Chapter that pledges TOO the Ordo Maleus and are not actually Inquisition forces themselves. I just thought the subtle suggestion at the very end there was very cool and hopefully foreshadows more to come on this subject. I am stopping at the book store on my way home to get the next book so feel free to refrain from spoiling anything that is revealed later in the series other than "ya dude it explains more later". :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Well, technically the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus. That is their mission, so yeah, they are Inquisition exclusive. I've yet to see verified canon as to whether Garro actually was part of the founding. The issue conflicting with it is two things; 1) Some speculation that the Grey Knight geneseed comes directly from the Emperor. The other speculation is that they are the best of the best from other chapters, with a specialty in fighting daemons. I might be mistaken, but I've never seen either side verified. 2) We don't actually know when His Most Holy Inquisition came to be. Was it being established before it was announced? The Emperor, after being wounded, officially founded the Ordos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 JEFF4i Posted Today, 07:44 PM Well, technically the Grey Knights are the Ordo Militant of the Ordo Malleus. That is their mission, so yeah, they are Inquisition exclusive. I've yet to see verified canon as to whether Garro actually was part of the founding. The issue conflicting with it is two things; 1) Some speculation that the Grey Knight geneseed comes directly from the Emperor. The other speculation is that they are the best of the best from other chapters, with a specialty in fighting daemons. I might be mistaken, but I've never seen either side verified. "Official Rumour" is better than speculation - its the only explanation of GK geneseed we are ever given, and regardless of where it comes from it is "unique" in regards to 'normal' geneseed. Grey Knights are also all psykers. This rules out Garro, Loken, whoever being part of the Grey Knights. However, the original box-out for the Eisenstein 70 in IA: Death Guard provided a number of rumours for what happened to the 70. One was the Garro became the Lord of Flies - that's now covered by Decius. Another was that he joined the Apothecarion on Terra looking for a cure for Nurgle's Rot - thats covered by Voyen. The remaining two are that they die as prisoners, or that they become a dedicated force hunting Nurgle. Judging by the ending, its doesn't look as though he's going to stay a prisoner . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Malachi Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I'd love to think that Garro starts up the inquisition, but it doesn't seem all that likely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esinhorn Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 They could still be the forefathers of the Grey Knights remember pskers were not too popular in 30k. After the Heresy they would have pick of anyone coming off the Black Ships. Find 1000+ young men to train into marines and there you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moranimal Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 There's no reason at all why Garro, Qruze, and the 70 can't be the founding of the GK. Although GK are pyskers, the initial membership may not have been, it's something that evolved during the evolution of the GK. (They may have also had limited ability which hasn't been explored yet.) Also, since SM are really not immortal in the truest sense of the word, once the original founders passed away - whether due to combat, accident, old age, etc. - newer members had to be drawn from somewhere or created. Let's just enjoy the ride. Many of the characters will reappear in later books, such as the assault on Earth's moon and on Terra itself. Can you imagine the look on some of the traitor legion faces when they see Garro, Qruze, Tarvitz, etc. defending the palace, or boarding their ships in space? Do you know how pissed Fulgriim would be - as well as Horus - when the news reaches them!?!?!?!?!? This is going to be great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 moranimal Posted Today, 08:31 PM There's no reason at all why Garro, Qruze, and the 70 can't be the founding of the GK. Although GK are pyskers, the initial membership may not have been, it's something that evolved during the evolution of the GK. Only if the GKs are vanilla marines in disguise. They are not. GW even came out and explicitly stated that GKs are highly different from SMs, hence their different playing style. The only way I can see this working is if GW actually write the retcon of the initial design for GKs (which had them using bolter exactly like the Legions/Chapters) into the story of how the Inquisition was founded. I do hope Garro turns up though. There is a mention in the original IA: Death Guard that the Eisenstein 70 became some kind of independent undercover force specifically targeting Nurgle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Being founder members of the Ordo Malleus or the Inquisition in general doesn't mean their Gene Seed was ever anything to do with the Grey Knights. The most likely explaination is that they just became part of the Inquisition. The GK geneseed was derived from the Emperor himself. Job's a good un. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Commander Vespasian Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 The excerpt regarding the Grey Knights, to be found in the latest Space Marine Codex, says that it is rumoured that the Grey Knights foundation dates to a period during The Great Crusade itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 SamaNagol Posted Today, 10:21 PM Being founder members of the Ordo Malleus or the Inquisition in general doesn't mean their Gene Seed was ever anything to do with the Grey Knights. The most likely explaination is that they just became part of the Inquisition. The GK geneseed was derived from the Emperor himself. Job's a good un. Yup. Thats how I see it too. But thats not what I was replying to. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Weaver Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Says in ye ole' C:SM that the Grey Knights we part of the second founding. Not sure how that plays into this equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 its typical GW fluff...most sources contradicts the previous sources and convincing people of a differing view point is as likely as teaching calista flockheart to eat a cheese burger. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esinhorn Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 From the mouth of Abnett himself Anything in the new Horus Heresy Novels is CANON and supercedes old info. Infact the whole Horus Heresy is really due to the fact that GW was under a time crunch to put out its game and it was easier and quicker to make the marines two different colors and say it was civil war than finish the ork side they were planning to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Well, for me its enough that they go on to form 'some kind of organisation' - its pretty much spelled out that this is either the ordo or the inquisition, - being 'tasked with rooting out heretics so this cannot happen again' says this to me, short of it saying "yes these guys did go on to form the Inquisition. Yes, thats the same inquisition thats in 40k and everything, for all you guys who like to post on forums!" its pretty explicit :P Kind of like Abnett made the mistake of not writing explicitly that Loken was vapourised, then his component atoms spread to every corner of the galaxy and was therefore thoroughly dead, thus preventing all of the 'but Loken is still alive!' threads. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Kind of like Abnett made the mistake of not writing explicitly that Loken was vapourised, then his component atoms spread to every corner of the galaxy and was therefore thoroughly dead, thus preventing all of the 'but Loken is still alive!' threads. :) Why is it a mistake? Good writers will always add things like the lack of Lokens death in books to add taking points that create discussion, that leads to people wanting to read more to find out what happens. Pretty simple really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Indeed, I should also have added that writing explicitly that something has happened can sometimes detract from the overall impact of the story. Writing that Loken 'slowly faded into darkness' or some such like is far more engrossing than 'Loken died'. But in this case, as with the formation of some 'ordo' at the end of the Eisenstein, I think its pretty obvious of the intended objective of the writer. On the other hand, the amount of "but Loken isn'd dead" 'discussions' which have taken place, makes me think Abnett might have been better advised to follow George Lucas's decision at the end of 'Phantom Menace' to have a character cut in half and fall down a mile high tunnel to remove any suggestion of that character return. Its like people wishing for Richey James to appear back as front man of the Manic Street Preachers again - it isn't going to happen, and even if it did now would it really matter so much? I don't think you can really class it as 'discussion', reading the end of Galaxy in Flames and somehow gleaning from this that Loken is somehow still alive is just a value judgement, wishful thinking, and from which no meaningful discussion can take place. Thats my opinion anyway, but I'll go on record to say that if Loken ever appears back in an HH novel, based subsequently to GiF and alive, then I'll eat my hat along with a side garnish of plastic sprue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Did you know Darth Maul didn't actually die from that? Same as Boba Fett not dying in the Sarlacc pit I guess. Both somehow survive and come back later. So if THEIR deaths were more definitive than Loken's....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Did you know Darth Maul didn't actually die from that? Same as Boba Fett not dying in the Sarlacc pit I guess. Both somehow survive and come back later.So if THEIR deaths were more definitive than Loken's....... The only true canon released by Star Wars comes from the movies. Loken's dead, its okay to let go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Pacific81 Posted Today, 05:01 PM Thats my opinion anyway, but I'll go on record to say that if Loken ever appears back in an HH novel, based subsequently to GiF and alive, then I'll eat my hat along with a side garnish of plastic sprue. Haven't you ever heard of tempting fate? (Or the BL writers?) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Did you know Darth Maul didn't actually die from that? Same as Boba Fett not dying in the Sarlacc pit I guess. Both somehow survive and come back later.So if THEIR deaths were more definitive than Loken's....... The only true canon released by Star Wars comes from the movies. Loken's dead, its okay to let go... Actually that's not true at all, the movies are only a fraction of the canon. I could care less about Loken's fate, he served his purpose. I'm just saying, there's nothing definitive. He COULD be alive (in the distant past of the far future). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Did you know Darth Maul didn't actually die from that? Same as Boba Fett not dying in the Sarlacc pit I guess. Both somehow survive and come back later.So if THEIR deaths were more definitive than Loken's....... The only true canon released by Star Wars comes from the movies. Loken's dead, its okay to let go... Actually that's not true at all, the movies are only a fraction of the canon. I could care less about Loken's fate, he served his purpose. I'm just saying, there's nothing definitive. He COULD be alive (in the distant past of the far future). We were both right, and my last off-topic post here...hehe... From, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon The Holocron is divided into 5 levels: G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays. T-canon[1] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee[2]. C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon. S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories. N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Grey Knights are second founding aren't they? It was the Custodes that were pre-Crusade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Aye, apparently they were the 666th Chapter created during the second founding. Although this isn't exactly an ancient piece of fluff (I believe its in the Daemonhunters codex) I wouldn't be suprised if it got retconned during the HH book series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scar Weaver Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 Aye, apparently they were the 666th Chapter created during the second founding. Although this isn't exactly an ancient piece of fluff (I believe its in the Daemonhunters codex) I wouldn't be suprised if it got retconned during the HH book series. Like I said in my earlier post, it's in the new codex. Read the thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruck Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 I think that Garro and his survivors did have a hand in the Inq's founding. But maybe more in the way of what inquistors do now. I mean space marines are superhuman, and daemons can even terrify them (if i recall, Loken in Horus Rising was scared when Jubal turned, though he was reluctant to admit it). Garro and the survivors showed an exception to the rule. The reason that space marines stopped becoming 'inquisitors' could be that regular humans gained their faith in the emperor after he ascended to the Golden Throne, which gave them the courage to withstand the horrors, etc. etc. As for the Custodes, they were about what 10,000 strong? maybe more? Could it be possible that the grey knights were part of them that simply became sectioned off or were simply more specialzed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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