The Emperor's Champion Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Grey Knights were PRE-Second Founding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raulmichile Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Aye, apparently they were the 666th Chapter created during the second founding. Although this isn't exactly an ancient piece of fluff (I believe its in the Daemonhunters codex) I wouldn't be suprised if it got retconned during the HH book series. Old (original Fluff). For instance, the second founding chapters are direct descendants of the legions. I don't have my book nearby but it is clear that second founding didn't create 666+ chapters. What (old) fluff says is that Grey Knights were the 666th chapter created in a later founding to help the Inquisition hunting daemons because (old fluff said) daemons were so ugly and malevolent that even normal marines could become mad when confronted with them. In fact, every no-GK marine who was in contact with daemons had to be "mind numbed". For normal humans, they were simply sacrificed or sent to labour camps to die there (1st. Armaggedon War, anyone?. With current fluff, my grandma can see, chat and even fight daemons without the risk of being removed from existance. Daemons are so common thes days... :wallbash: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Raulmichile Posted Today, 06:48 AM With current fluff, my grandma can see, chat and even fight daemons without the risk of being removed from existance. Daemons are so common thes days... Not to mention our special +2 Str Power Weapons. <_< Grey Knights are at the time of the Second Founding. I quote Codex:DH ". . . it was around the time of the Second Founding that the Emperor ordered the creation of this secret Chapter of Space Marines . . . the creation of the Grey Knights was undertaken in great secrecy (p6)." The new Codex: SM concurs with "The Grey Knights were the first of the new Chapters to be created during the Second Founding (p41)." The bit below about hints of the GKs being created during the Heresy sound like the author's personally formed and unsubstantiated by GW conspiracy theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Loken Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 One question, and it's not a dig at anyone, how did the Emperor manage to order the creation of the Grey Knights during the Second Founding? Weren't he interred into the Golden Throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Its never really been explained. The Emperor seems to have time to do a whole lot of things on the way back to Terra from Horus' ship. I assume they took the scenic route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 First of all, even after his horrific injuries at the hands of Horus, the Emperor has some time to give orders to his cronies. Collected Visions states that Mallacor the Sigilite had left some of his own power in the Golden Throne so that the Emperor could do this (even though this completely destroyed him in the process) so the Emperor was able to tell Dorn and some others his plans. Secondly, even though its quite old fluff now, the 'Inquisitor' trilogy has a sequence of a character communicating with the Emperor telepathically. Essentially its almost like he has some vast multi-mind (how else could he do all the things he does which involve splitting his attention?) but this makes me think that the Emperor can make his wishes known, perhaps to the High Lords of Terra, and does not only exist as a consciousness within the warp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I always kinda figured along those lines pacific81, except i think the High Lords know whats the emperor wants done, and then dont do it. i dont think the emperor would be happy with the religious hate filled imperium of man. it makes the game more ironic to me. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 I always kinda figured along those lines pacific81, except i think the High Lords know whats the emperor wants done, and then dont do it. i dont think the emperor would be happy with the religious hate filled imperium of man. it makes the game more ironic to me. wolf lord kieran yes I agree, I think this is the greatest irony, and also the greatest sadness of what has happened to the Imperium. There is a great quote in Horus Rising by Sinderman that proves to be quite prophetic.. "Right does not follow might. Mankind has a great, empirical truth to convey, a message to bring, for the good of all. Sometimes that message falls on unwilling ears. Sometimes that message is spurned and denied, as here. Then, and only then, thank the stars that we own the might to enforce it. We are mighty because we are right, Garviel. We are not right because we are mighty. Vile the hour when that reversal becomes our credo." There was also the Age of Apostasy in M36 where Vandire took control of both the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra, so both the beurocracy and religous side of the Imperium, and began the Reign of Blood, only finally overcome by the combined effort of many marine chapters. So, this would seem to suggest that in reality the Emperor has little actual control over the Imperium, as this caused a civil war that almost finished the Imperium off and surely he would not have allowed the usurping by Vandire to take place! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kil78 Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 the second founding was about 100 years after the heresey IIRC. that does not mean that garro and his boys could not have formed a precursor to the grey knights which opperated beforew the second founding. infact it makes sense that they would then use the second founding to "ligitimize" this group into a chapter during this founding. side note: the chapter number 666 is just a designation number, it does not mean that their were 665 other chapters at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Garro and the crew may have had experience fighting warp spawn, but they will have had more fighting unclean xenos during the Crusade. Deathwatch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 kil78 Posted Today, 08:10 PM side note: the chapter number 666 is just a designation number, it does not mean that their were 665 other chapters at the time Maybe the Emperor foresaw the Ultramarines founding 2/3rds of the future 1000 Chapters, so started the numbering for non Ultramarine-successors at the 2/3rds mark. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Let's also be honest with ourselves. Being wtihin the true nature of the Inquisition...we'll probably never know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Let me say it again. Grey Knights were PRE-Second Founding. They were the 21st "Legion" created but were numbered 666. Probably a joke from The Emperor thinking it ironic to give his demon hunters the Number of The Beast (after all, who else but The Emperor would possibly get that reference in the year 30,000-ish?). Indeed now that I think about it it actually makes sense that a "Chapter" of Grey Knights can defend the whole Imperium since they were created before Legions were broken down into Chapters, meaning there might easily be a Legion-ish number of Knights out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigger-than-Jesus Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Indeed now that I think about it it actually makes sense that a "Chapter" of Grey Knights can defend the whole Imperium since they were created before Legions were broken down into Chapters, meaning there might easily be a Legion-ish number of Knights out there. I think I remember seeing that there's around the same number of knights as space pups, maybe more. And Garro and some of his men could have been latent psykers suppressing their abilities out of respect of the council of Nikea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I'd be more inclined to believe them to be Black Templar sized. Not quite enough Wolves to go around, but the BT's are all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 3000 is a common estimate I see round here on the B&C, no idea where it comes from though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerelius Posted January 2, 2009 Share Posted January 2, 2009 If you read in the Collected Visions (HH) Malcador is told by the Emp before Malcador gets put into the Throne to gather a group of men that can be trusted and atha are unfinchingly loyal to become the pre cursors of the Inquistion free to root out Heresy in His Imperium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakiwis Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 I would still think that before the Grey Knights became the Grey Knights they should have had a precussor. I think that Precussor would be Garro, Qurze (sp?) and other marines not neccessarily just from the surviving death guard from the Eisenstien to form that precussor since deamons at that time are not as commonplace as the 40k timeline. I would assume the surviving Death Guard will be absorbed into that group since they do not have a chapter anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 since deamons at that time are not as commonplace as the 40k timeline. :blink: "Daemons are not as common" :lol: Sir, they've just caused the biggest schism ever to happen amongst the human race. Those daemons are just as common as they are in the 41st millenium. It's their human followers who have got better. Other than that, *Shrugs* its your opinion. Nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remiel Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 If anything I'd say that Garro may have been used to create the Ordo Hereticus, as an Inquisitor. It makes sense as he witnessed first hand what a traitor could do the scheme of things, not so much the full brunt of Chaos demons and the like. And his stern personality is that of an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 3, 2009 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Whilst I would agree that that would be more plausible, the Ordo Hereticus does not come into existence until M.35 in the aftermath of the Age of Apostasy. Garro is out as a candidate for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arbogast1 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Whilst I would agree that that would be more plausible, the Ordo Hereticus does not come into existence until M.35 in the aftermath of the Age of Apostasy. Garro is out as a candidate for that. unless he was secretly hibernating underneath the Golden Throne :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of the Emperor Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Whilst I would agree that that would be more plausible, the Ordo Hereticus does not come into existence until M.35 in the aftermath of the Age of Apostasy. Garro is out as a candidate for that. Maybe he pulled a Bjorn the Fell-handed and got stuck in a sarcophagus... I declare from now on that being imprisoned in a dreadnought shall be called "Pulling a Bjorn the Fell-handed" and being kept alive for the sole purpose of collecting your bodily fluids and armor chunks shall be called "Pulling a Most Beneficent and Immortal Master of Mankind, the God-Emperor." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrantDaKiller Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Well the Horus Heresy artbook says that eight marines were chosen from the traitor legions who have resisted their fall. I quote: "Sire these others are known to you. Each of them is a Space Marine. They have cast aside their allegiance to Primarch and Legion who have sided with Horus and pledged themselves anew to you, their Emperor and father. I have chosen these eight since allied to their unflinching loyalty they each are blessed with paranormal skills, kept dormant in respect of your previous commands. However these skills are most apt in combating the horrors that have recently emerged from the warp and i know that they will be needed in the comming years." "Malcador you have judged well, these eight Space Marines do indeed have a vital role to play in the future of the Imperium, though veiled in secrecy they will be." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Their canonicity is disputed. See here for an example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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