Ethrion Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 My question is regarding the end of the novel Fulgrim so from here on in are spoilers: After killing his brother Ferrus Manus, Fulgrim's veil of chaos is lifted and he sees everything in total clarity; all the acts he has committed up until that point, all the lies dressed up as truths. The guilt at what he does overcomes him, all because the daemon in the sword has chosen to show him the truth of things. The realization drives him at first to want to commit suicide but then the sword convinces him to allow to be granted oblivion, which as Fulgrim realizes too late is also a trick. Fulgrim's soul is pushed to the far recesses of his mind, imprisoned and forced to watch what the daemon does in his stead. Later Horus is told what has happened by the daemon masquerading as Fulgrim and is horrified. He vows once his campaign is finished to kill the daemon and release his brother but asks himself "what power can unmake a daemon?" Obviously Horus doesn't get a chance to find out because he is later killed by the Emperor (a similar fate befalling him regarding the clarity that is granted after it is too late). Therefore Fulgrim is still trapped inside the daemon prince and my question is this: is it possible for Fulgrim to be released from his prison within the daemon, could Horus or anyone for that matter free Fulgrim. It seems like the novel is very clear in stating that the 'original'/'good' Fulgrim is trapped inside a daemon unlike other primarchs that willingly became daemon princes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 i do believe that the "original" (the matter of his "good"ness is a whole other debate) could be freed, but i doubt anybody who actually cares has the power, and thos that have the power to probably dont care. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I agree with Kieran. I think it would take a Psyker with the power of the Emperor to do it. Maybe Uldrad Ulthran knows, but he isn't telling. It's possible, but it isn't likely. Besides I don't think Fulgrim would get a royal welcome back into the Imperium anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted November 12, 2008 Author Share Posted November 12, 2008 LOL I'm sure he wouldn't <_< but yeah I guess only the Emperor could release him. But I suppose slightly in Fulgrim's defense his actions and judgments were all influenced and clouded by chaos, upon having the veil lifted as it were he was in that brief moment himself once more. In the same way that the Emperor saw Horus, his favoured son, return for the briefest of moments before he died. I'm sure that Fulgrim is lost forever but on some level (for me at least) it's nice to know that he didn't give himself over entirely to chaos knowingly and deliberately as did some of the other primarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 The way I see it, the other daemon Primarchs were elevated to Daemonhood. Fulgrim was possessed. There's a difference, as Fulgrim is no longer in control of his own body, whereas the Daemon Primarchs are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 We don't know that for sure yet. Fulgrim is the only traitor Primarch who has been discussed in detail (with the exception of Horus) so we have no way of knowing whether Peturabo, Angron, Magnus etc. went through a similar process. They may all have had their reasons for a beef with with the Emperor, but when they were presented with the horror of what had happened to their legion and a final realisation of the forces they had allied themselves with, then perhaps a similar situation would have happened to them. Although I guess that you could argue that the end result is the same - possessed or no, they all carry a deeply disturbed and hateful opinion of the Emperor and the Imperium, and carry out all kinds of horrors regardless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I'd personally prefer them to be sane (relatively speaking, of course; how sane can Angron really ever be?) and in complete control of themselves; Fulgrim should be the sole, tragic exception. The Emperor's errors, oversights, negligences, perceived slights, rebukes, and all of that should factor deeply in the Primarchs' characters and their falls from grace. By the way, I just listed out the nine loyalists, and not one of them seems to have had the somewhat-troubled relationship with the Emperor many of the Traitors had. Apparently the Primarchs lack resiliency- the ones who were wronged failed to rise above it, while all of those who stayed loyal seemed to have quite the happy-family thing going on with ol' Dad- they stayed with him because they had no real challenges to overcome in their relationship with Him. Fulgrim was manipulated by a *cough*PLOTDEVICE*cough* demon-sword Horus, who in turn was just wangsty about the Big E leaving... other than that, they all had their reasons to resent him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 What you have pointed out there Imperialis_Dominatus is perhaps the most important thing when discussing that monsters are created, they are not born. Fortunately the series of HH books has gone beyond the childish perception of things being inherently 'evil'. We can see the seeds being sown by the Emperor's destruction of Angron's slave army, the turning of Peturabo's legion into a 'garrison' force pushed to breaking point, the upbringing of Konrad Kurze etc. My only regret is that not more was made of the Primarch's poor treatment and giving this as a reason for them turning, and instead a 'variable' was introduced in terms of the daemon sword for Fulgrim, and the anathaema for Horus. I was really hoping that we would see Horus pushed to breaking point, and a series of bad decisions by Terra leading him to believe that the only way for Mankind to succeed was by his turning traitor. I feel even the CCG and 'collected visions' did a better job of Horus' frustrations, although McNeils approach did improve for Fulgrim. Evenen without the whispered temptations of the possessed blade, it was possible to see why Fulgrim made the decisions he did. But as it stands, the HH team seem to be going almost entirely with the 'influenced by chaos' argument for why the Heresy happened. This is a great shame IMO, it would have been much more effective to have a rational and human reason for the schism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEFF4i Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 It is a sad, sad, thing. But I think even if they could, they should leave Fulgrim in there. His treachery deserves such a punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 i have always wanted to point this out, and finally have a chance: to go against the "every loyalist primarch had a solid family structure and thats why they didnt turn to emo whiny traitors": 1. the Lion survived ALONE on a death world during his formative years, and then took control of the people who "rescued" him. 2. Corax was a terrorist, and bombed the living crap out of his oppressors. not exactly mister rogers. 3. the Wolf's wolf family was killed before him by poisoned arrows, with only 2 surviving (again, on a death world). he is then adopted by humans. and this is just off the top of my head. wolf lord kieran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 i have always wanted to point this out, and finally have a chance: to go against the "every loyalist primarch had a solid family structure and thats why they didnt turn to emo whiny traitors":1. the Lion survived ALONE on a death world during his formative years, and then took control of the people who "rescued" him. 2. Corax was a terrorist, and bombed the living crap out of his oppressors. not exactly mister rogers. 3. the Wolf's wolf family was killed before him by poisoned arrows, with only 2 surviving (again, on a death world). he is then adopted by humans. and this is just off the top of my head. wolf lord kieran I was talking about their relationship with the Emperor, not the upbringing they had on their planets. Most of them had it pretty hard. Rob and Dorn, though... where did Dorn even come from? I've looked around and all I've found is that he ran into the Emperor's fleet with his own. Meh. And it's no wonder Rob turned out the way he did. No character-building death world for him, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contaminus Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 And it's no wonder Rob turned out the way he did. No character-building death world for him, no. Omg, not being born on the arsehole of the galaxy must make him a 2D and unimpressive character! I finally see it now! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emperor's Champion Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 I think "elevation to demonhood" is fishy in and of itself. I think it's just cooperative possession. Symbiotic rather than parasitic possession. I myself don't believe that anyone can truly become a demon, only take on already existing Warp forces to add to their "base" form. Kinda like Bionics. They don't make you mechanical. THEY are mechanical and you just happen to be semi-permanently attached to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moranimal Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Back to the original topic, if you have read Fulgrim, the last words hint that ... ... Fulgrim is now imprisoned in the painting. As his demon possessed body leaves the stage area where the last tragic opera took place, Fulgrim's painting is now what Fulgrim used to look like, not the demon possessed entity of when he was still somewhat in control of his faculties. As the lights are shut off, Fulgrim is forever - we'll see - to be be left in darkness. That being the case, there is some hope of eventually freeing Fulgrim. However, his body has been changed by the demon occupying it for some 10,000 years now. We'll see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 Omg, not being born on the arsehole of the galaxy must make him a 2D and unimpressive character! I finally see it now! :yes: Not 2D. Never said that. No. Don't put words in my mouth because you've had bad experiences with other people who critique your beloved Chapter. I'll elaborate later, on a project I suspect you won't be interested in. I think "elevation to demonhood" is fishy in and of itself. I think it's just cooperative possession. Symbiotic rather than parasitic possession.I myself don't believe that anyone can truly become a demon, only take on already existing Warp forces to add to their "base" form. Kinda like Bionics. They don't make you mechanical. THEY are mechanical and you just happen to be semi-permanently attached to them. Interesting ideas. Very interesting. For it is indeed the power of the Warp flowing into someone that makes them a Prince, and what is possession if not a massive increase in (sentient) Warp power in a person's psyche? That being the case, there is some hope of eventually freeing Fulgrim. However, his body has been changed by the demon occupying it for some 10,000 years now. We'll see what happens. He's probably not sane at all either. Body impure or no, his mind is likely broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific81 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 And it's no wonder Rob turned out the way he did. No character-building death world for him, no. Omg, not being born on the arsehole of the galaxy must make him a 2D and unimpressive character! I finally see it now! <_< Haha :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 Back to the original topic, if you have read Fulgrim, the last words hint that ... ... Fulgrim is now imprisoned in the painting. As his demon possessed body leaves the stage area where the last tragic opera took place, Fulgrim's painting is now what Fulgrim used to look like, not the demon possessed entity of when he was still somewhat in control of his faculties. As the lights are shut off, Fulgrim is forever - we'll see - to be be left in darkness. That being the case, there is some hope of eventually freeing Fulgrim. However, his body has been changed by the demon occupying it for some 10,000 years now. We'll see what happens. Yeah I wasn't entirely sure when I read that myself: Was the book hinting that the soul of Fulgrim had been passed into the painting and was looking back in horror at the daemon now occupying his body? Or is Fulgrim's soul still trapped within his daemon form in the far recesses of his mind and that only the appearance of the painting changed from the grotesque image to the former glorious image of the primarch? I wasn't 100% with what was being eluded to by that last part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 How Dorian Grey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taffeh Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 It is a sad, sad, thing. But I think even if they could, they should leave Fulgrim in there. His treachery deserves such a punishment. I think the final message of the book is one of him being 'imprissoned for his crimes'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Back to the original topic, if you have read Fulgrim, the last words hint that ... ... Fulgrim is now imprisoned in the painting. As his demon possessed body leaves the stage area where the last tragic opera took place, Fulgrim's painting is now what Fulgrim used to look like, not the demon possessed entity of when he was still somewhat in control of his faculties. As the lights are shut off, Fulgrim is forever - we'll see - to be be left in darkness. That being the case, there is some hope of eventually freeing Fulgrim. However, his body has been changed by the demon occupying it for some 10,000 years now. We'll see what happens. Yeah I wasn't entirely sure when I read that myself: Was the book hinting that the soul of Fulgrim had been passed into the painting and was looking back in horror at the daemon now occupying his body? Or is Fulgrim's soul still trapped within his daemon form in the far recesses of his mind and that only the appearance of the painting changed from the grotesque image to the former glorious image of the primarch? I wasn't 100% with what was being eluded to by that last part. I myself think that the painting is a prison. And the warp does bend reality, so the painting could represent the last point in Fulgrim's brain that is his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyp100 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 WELL, what would happen to this painting...? I MEAN, if it was on the ship, surely it would...Well, a number of things could happen, it moving to the warp, or the ship being blown up on Terra is the 2 biggest ideas, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moranimal Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 It will to interesting to see how they address (and I suspect they will) Fulgrim's command ship and the painting. I suspect you'll see some band of EC make off with it at some point, and now have it hanging somewhere. Whether they even realize what it is is certainly open to conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Hunter Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 You guys are all talking about darkness and stuff. Why don't they just turn the light back on so fulgrim can escape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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