75 replies to this topic

[Octavulg]

HALLS OF THE BLIND: The Bronze Prophets

They can see what you see not...vision milky then eyes rot...when you turn, they will be gone...whispering their hidden song... - Excerpt from the heretical ramblings of the 'prophet' Melchior Keb

Long and strange is the saga of the Bronze Prophets of the Adeptus Astartes. Though once among the finest of marines, the calamities which afflict them have caused many to question their purity. There can be little doubt that their origins lie in that most benighted of times - the Cursed Founding.

Origins
Our wars are fought on the edge of Limbo, as its winds roar around us.
The scars of our battles lie on the inside, not on our skin.
The destruction those wounds wreak may leave nothing.
We are the veterans of the wars of the mind, and we know no fear, for the Emperor is with us.
- Inscription above the entrance to the Bronze Prophets' Fortress Monastery

Bronze Prophet

Like many Cursed Founding chapters, little or nothing is confirmed about the creation of the Bronze Prophets. Despite this, many horrific legends surround them, whispered in darkness by the fearful.. Whether these tales are created by the Prophets themselves or are whispers of truth that have slowly spread across the Imperium is impossible to say.

These legends say that the Bronze Prophets, in the early years of their founding, were a mighty force. They were keen of eye, strong of limb, and sharp of intellect, even by the standards of Space Marines. The enemies of mankind fell before them, and each victory was cause for great rejoicing in the Auguria, their monastery on their home world of Pawrath. Many are the stories of their victories – the Dark Eldar raiders outmaneuvered and crushed in the Catacombs of Saint Leoric, the daemonic incursion driven back in the skies above Raja Kush, the annihilation of an Iron Warrior Grand Company at the Battle of Sinclair's Hope – these are only some of the great deeds accomplished while the Chapter was young and eager.

But their prowess was not limited to the battlefield. The Bronze Prophets' Librarians were some of the most puissant the Imperium had ever seen, and their gifts at foreseeing the future almost unparalleled. They took the myriad strands of the future and wove them to form a tapestry which pleased them, letting the Emperor guide them toward the best course of action. Indeed, these gifts of prophecy were a large part of what allowed the Bronze Prophets to achieve their great successes on the battlefield. Nonetheless, their talents were not limited to mere prediction - stories of Bronze Prophet Librarians striking enemy fighters from the sky with their minds and annihilating men with a word still echo in the ears of the enemies of Man.

In dark corners of the Imperium, it was whispered that the power and might of the Prophets heralded the dawning of a new era for the realm of Man. Even in the halls of power and the palaces of the mighty, the unwise and the foolish swore to each other that the Chapter’s victories were a sign of the Emperor's return. Such mutterings drifted to the Bronze Prophets' ears, and they were pleased. It is said that it was this pleasure that was their downfall.

And They Are Evil in My Sight
The mind of the Emperor is not that of a man. It is that of a god. All the knowledge of the universe, that ever was and ever will be. If we could touch it, grasp even a moment of the infinities that it must encompass, we could be even more than we already are. Would that we could witness such a thing.
– Montress the Golden, Chief Librarian of the Bronze Prophets

The Chief Librarian of the Bronze Prophets was Montress the Golden, a man whose powers surpassed even those of his abnormally powerful brethren. Montress was a gifted soothsayer and powerful psyker, eager to scry beyond the limits which bound his compatriots. He looked back in time to the very dawn of the Imperium itself and forward to times where even the stars would fade away. It is also said that Montress reached out and touched the minds of the enemies of Man – Orks, Eldar, heretics, and the darkest of aliens that are only whispered of today. He knew them all, and the weaknesses inside them, and the Bronze Prophets used those weaknesses to win victory after victory. But still there was knowledge he did not possess, and he grew obsessed with touching the mind he knew contained the knowledge of the future of humanity itself – the mind of the Emperor.

Montress swore that by touching the mind of the Emperor he would be able to see the true path for the chapter and the Imperium, and change the galaxy as his master would want. The beacon of the Astronomican, he claimed, also projected the mind of the Emperor into the galaxy. By touching this, one could touch the knowledge of the Emperor – feel his thoughts, know his wisdom. One night, when the four moons of Pawrath aligned in the sky, the Chapter's most powerful Librarians met in conclave, that together they might do what he alone could not. They would look into the mind of the Emperor.

Together, they reached out across the fullness and breadth of space and time, twisting the fabric of reality with their efforts, reaching for the Astronomican and the mind of their Lord and ultimate creator. They looked forward into the future, and back into the past at the same time, and at the same time as that they looked nowhere at all. And as they raised their heads, triumphant, their very eyes poured from their heads as dust, and their sanity poured away with it.

Some say that they were destroyed by the power of the Astronomican, some by the glory of the mind of the Emperor, and some that their fate is a lesson from the Emperor for all who would overreach their station. Others claim that it is a mere representation of the inner corruption being a psyker forces on all so cursed. Whatever the reason, the legends all agree that ever since, the Librarians of the Bronze Prophets have succumbed to the same curse as they reach the apex of their power - their eyes rot away, and their minds rot with their eyes. Those who fall to the curse remain chained below the Monastery to gibber in riddles that will steer the course of the Chapter and the Imperium, and that as year follows year, their numbers grow.

The Bronze Prophets themselves are silent on the subject. Some few in the Imperium claim these legends are but slander and that the Bronze Prophets are still the titans they were five thousand years ago, but their ranks dwindle with each passing century. But the truth is not important, for the Emperor protects.

Home World
The Emperor reveals his ways to you clad in yellow! Believe in yellow, for it is the color of the Emperor, and of the future! Follow the yellow sign, and you shall find the truth of the Emperor!
- Unknown street corner preacher, Pawrath

The home world of the Bronze Prophets is Pawrath, a small planet in the far north-east of Segmentum Tempestus. A mostly temperate world, Pawrath's population is concentrated in the feuding city-states which dot the coastline and island chains of its eastern continent. The city-states of Pawrath vary wildly in their governmental styles and favored methods of warfare, but all prosecute their struggles with abandon. Duchies and republics, petty empires and anarcho-syndicalist communes, all constantly vie with pike, sword, and other, stranger weapons for territory, resources or honour. The people are united only by their faith, and the commonalities of architecture, thought and language it has brought.

The Auguria

The Auguria, Fortress-Monastery of the Bronze Prophets, is far larger than its outer walls would appear. Its sprawling tunnels stretch for kilometers away from the city that 'contains' it, extending into the mountains beyond the city and under the ocean beside it. Having been gradually adjusted, modified and expanded over the past five thousand years, it is now questionable whether even the Bronze Prophets can really understand the full extent of the tunnels.

Starship launches, smelting, mining and the other obtrusive activities necessary to the functioning of a modern Space Marine chapter are conducted far away from the central monastery itself in the mountains, where much of the Chapter's armory can also be found. This keeps such activities away from the eyes of the planetary population, who virtually never travel so far into the mountains - meaning their lack of return when they do so is always safely dismissed as accident. The undersea tunnels guard precious chapter relics, and many are secured with failsafe mechanisms which flood the tunnels should any invader penetrate - obviously, more delicate chapter artifacts are stored elsewhere.

The Bronze Prophets' extensive Librarium occupies a variety of vast caverns throughout the complex, and its extensive archives have been eyed covetously by many in the Inquisition for the variety of knowledge they possess on the subject of psychics, prophecy and the Emperor. Imperial authorities have been allowed access to these labyrinths rarely, and never unescorted, and the truth of the rumors regarding maddened seers chained beneath the monastery thus remains undetermined.

The church on Pawrath is a powerful institution – the Ecclesiarchy has deep roots in the world, and belief in the Divine Emperor runs at least as deep in the hearts of the citizens. The Imperial Cult is the one organization on Pawrath that can remain relatively aloof from the various internecine conflicts which make the planet so useful as a Space Marine recruitment ground. Education and learning are, for better or ill, maintained by the agents of the Emperor's divinity, and thus almost all aspects of Pawrathan life which are shaped by intellectuals are equally shaped by the influence of the church. The gothic arches and buttresses of fortresses, the invocations of the Emperor's blessing in books, the thoughts of the aristocracy and politicians – all follow the forms of the Imperial faith.

From high to low, Pawrath is pervaded by a belief in the Emperor – specifically, a belief that the Emperor reveals his will to his people so they might better conform to his wishes in all things. The people of Pawrath have, as their belief deepens, become more and more devoted to determining just what the Emperor wants. Through consultation with soothsayers, arcane prophecies, the reading of omens, close consultation of holy texts – every citizen of Pawrath is determined to conclude just what it is they can do to ensure their rightness in the Emperor's eyes. This belief has unsurprisingly extended itself to the Chapter, whose views on the importance of their prophetic gifts mesh well with it.

Whatever the Bronze Prophets may think of the beliefs of the people, their Fortress Monastery remains a silent observer of all these things. The Fortress Monastery, known as the Halls of the Blind to many outside the Chapter and as the Auguria to the Marines themselves, sits within the large Church complex within the largest city on Pawrath. Though initially the citizens were sure that this was a sign of divine blessing for the city, and that the Space Marines would aid them against their enemies, it soon became clear that the choice was driven by the city's central location and large population base. The walls of the Auguria do not open to the outside, except to allow recruiting parties to enter and exit. It only watches, its presence reminding the people equally of their duties to the Emperor and the consequences of failing in that duty.

The population of the planet has little contact with the Prophets, looking at them as something between protectors, demons and gods. Many former Chapter Masters and Captains are preserved in the memory of the population as nigh-mythical heroes and villains. The people’s only real interaction with the Chapter is during recruitment drives, which are conducted as trials of strength and skill in every city, organized by the local authorities under the direction of a Chapter representative. Those who succeed will be taken to the Auguria for further training. Those who fail remain in the cities, ever dreaming of their lost chance to serve the Emperor.

Beliefs
In knowing the teachings of the Emperor, we have become stronger.
- Inscription over the entrance to the Bronze Prophets' Librarium

Unsurprisingly, it is by the prophetic abilities of their Librarians that the Bronze Prophets define themselves. They see the predictive abilities of psykers as the means of humanity's eventual triumph over its enemies, and see their own remarkable gifts in this area as a sign both of the Emperor's favor and of their superiority to humanity in general, and even to other Adeptus Astartes. The Emperor, as the most powerful psyker yet known to humanity, is seen as an ideal to which all mankind can aspire (though, of course, the Bronze Prophets are closer than most). Becoming more like the Emperor and fulfilling his plans for humanity is something of an obsession for many Marines of the chapter.

The Spectre of Cariz

Inquisitorial authorities have noted with interest a popular rumour which has of late surged through the cities of Pawrath, believing that it may hold some clue as to the truth at the heart of many of the legends surrounding the Bronze Prophets Chapter. Inquisitor Terpsichor Govannin has submitted her intention to proceed to Pawrath to conduct a more thorough investigation. Below is a transcript of information provided to Rogue Trader Takeshi Maisonneuve by a local source 9.172.982.M41.

Dozens of years ago, the first man saw the Spectre. We did not know it at the time, of course - he was found dead in the street by his house one morning, his face contorted and his eyes wide. No one knew what he had seen. Some days later, another man was found. Finally, the daughter of the Duke of Cariz himself, Baratzia the Fair, was found with her guards - only she had survived, and her mind was destroyed by the horror of what she had encountered. She babbled of a giant demon, and a curse of the Emperor, and clawed at her rescuers. It is said the Duke himself freed her from the torment her life had become, before setting out with his personal guard to seize the monster's head.

There were fifty of them that night. Their armor was crafted in the finest steel, smelted in this very city and forged into perfect plate in Valisi. The weapons they bore were the best a wealthy man could buy - and the Dukes of Cariz have always been wealthy. They stalked the darkened streets, peering into the shadows, hands on their sword hilts, fingers on the triggers of their offworld pistols. They came to the Plaza of the Dukes, and it was there they saw the monster.

It sat on the edge of a fountain, clad in a torn and tattered robe, its frame fully half again the height of a man. The flashes of its body beneath the robe revealed that it was gaunt, nearly a skeleton, and from its mouth poured a constant stream of imprecations and twisted, nonsense sayings - sayings that nonetheless seemed to echo with meaning in the ears of the Ducal Guard. The survivors claimed that nothing they heard made sense to them, but it seemed as though with each word that spilled from the creature's mouth, another guard ran screaming into the night or collapsed incoherently to the ground, riven by terror. Only the Duke could bring himself to approach the monster.

He stood before the beast and raised his pistol, and it was only then that the creature seemed to notice his presence. It raised its head and for a moment the Duke was able to look the monster full in the face. For one horrible moment the rambling stopped and its voice became terrifyingly clear, though only the Duke was close enough to hear its words. With a whimpering cry, he collapsed to the ground. As he lay gurgling on the cobblestones, the beast stood, peering from the darkness of its hood at the remaining guards. As one, they turned to flee, suddenly sure that life as cowards and traitors to their lord could be no worse than the fate the awaited them in that dark square.

They were wrong. Many died by their own hands over the next few weeks. The Duke sits even now in the tower where he has lived ever since, calling the empty air by his daughter's name. His son rules the city in his name, and will be Duke some day.

And at night we lock our doors, and hope the Spectre passes by.

Their reliance on the visionary gifts of the Librarians is correspondingly immense. Librarians will be consulted for many decisions made by Marines, whether personal decisions or choices which affect the whole chapter. In addition to the words of their own Librarians, they also eagerly seek out other potential sources of information about the future and its prediction – the tunnels beneath their Fortress-Monastery are reputed to be full of tome after tome of ancient prophecy, some accurate, some merely the ramblings of madmen. All of it is analyzed and searched for meaning before being stored in the Chapter Librarium, as are the many other tomes they discover in their hunt for prophetic lore. Those Marines who do not possess prophetic gifts themselves still often participate in the interpretation of the prophecies of others, and many of the chapter’s greatest leaders have lacked the gift of sight themselves.

The Chapter Librarians are thus seen as manifestations of the Emperor's will, and accorded a prestige and importance rare in other Chapters. Where in some Chapters Librarians are shunned, in the Bronze Prophets they are viewed with a quiet reverence, admired for their spiritual proximity to the Emperor. This does not grant them any more authority than in other Chapters – the Prophets remain fully cognizant of the risks of daemonic possession and insanity that accompany the gifts of the witch.

The Chapter's obsession with predicting the correct course of action in any situation has grown more and more pronounced as time goes by, no doubt at least partly due to the influence of the people of their home world, who are, if anything, even more obsessed with the same practice. The Bronze Prophets appear to be dedicating themselves more and more to a standard they seem to be unable to fully determine or comprehend, fighting ever-greater foes and committing themselves to battles further and further afield. Imperial observers have speculated that this reaction may well be confirmation of the terrifying legends which surround the Chapter, and that the Bronze Prophets have viewed their curse as a rebuke from the Emperor himself. Many of these same observers have questioned what the result will be when the Bronze Prophets are finally forced to face their own imperfections and the impossibility of knowing the Emperor's omniscient will.

Organization
All that lies within these doors will not avail you without the wisdom to know when and where to use it.
– Inscription over the entrance to the Armory of the Auguria

Generally speaking, the Bronze Prophets are a Codex chapter. The predictive gifts of the Librarians are not easily utilized in tactical combat, where the battle can be over before a Librarian can determine what route will secure victory. Thus, the Chapter follows the Codex Astartes and maintains dedicated adherence to its principles of warfare.

The Librarians of the Bronze Prophets are found throughout the chapter in combat roles, providing a valuable role in assisting their brethren in battle. Their oracular gifts are used to do what the chapter knows their enemies will not expect, and also to bolster the abilities of warriors in combat. Bronze Prophet Librarians have been recorded as producing a wide variety of effects in their compatriots, ranging from the swiftness of an Eldar to maniacal rage to increased potency of weapons and armor.

The amazing power displayed by the Librarians is coupled with an unusually short service life - few Librarians seem to see more than a century of combat before they disappear from public view. This, of course, only adds to the dark rumours surrounding the eventual fate of Chapter Librarians. Nonetheless, they are a powerful weapon in the Chapter's arsenal, and their abilities go some way toward compensating for the usual supply and equipment shortages common to Cursed Founding chapters. The Chapter Librarium maintains numbers in excess of most chapters, and companies maintain additional Librarians on semi-permanent assignment.

Combat Doctrine
Information is ammunition.
– Fragment of an ancient tactica in the Librarium of the Bronze Prophets

Despite their obsession with prediction, the Bronze Prophets have not yet reached the point where they can be easily paralyzed, waiting for the right course to be revealed to them. Though they eagerly pursue any clue which appears, they understand that sometimes no such insights will be forthcoming, and their battle doctrine (as well as their conduct off the field) has thus remained relatively orthodox and flexible.

The Bronze Prophets prefer to use their psychic gifts and psychological warfare against an opponent instead of direct force. A few days of being constantly outmaneuvered is usually enough to break the morale of any force, and the Prophets see this as a key component of ensuring their victories. Often Chapter Librarians will reach out to touch the minds of their enemies, wracking the foe with demoralizing nightmares and visions before a final, crushing, assault.

The Marines of the chapter enjoy using their gifts to taunt and toy with the enemy. They seem to take an almost perverse delight in allowing their enemies the apparent opportunity to escape - though their prophetic gifts make it nearly impossible for the enemy to do so. This has been known to cost the Prophets what would have been an easy victory, a fact that does not seem to diminish their cruel tendencies in this regard.

Gene-seed
The process of becoming an Astartes irrevocably changes the nature of a man. It is the answer to the questions of humanity – and yet it makes the questions pointless. You will see all the answers to your questions, Initiate – you will simply no longer care.
– Apothecary Serris of the Bronze Prophets

The gene-seed of the Bronze Prophets, like that of all Cursed Founding chapters, appears unusual. Though the genetors of the Adeptus Mechanicus are certain that it has been modified from its original form, they are uncertain as to how, or what that original form might be. However, it does not appear unstable, and the Marines within the Chapter who lack psychic gifts show no particular flaws which can be ascribed to their genetic heritage, and the Chapter's regular tithes are both timely and of at least minimal acceptability.

Acknowledgements and Thanks

Many thanks to Strike Captain Lysimachus, Commissar Molotov, KingHongKong, The Nephilim, Ace Debonair, Ferrus Manus, and all the others who helped out, critiqued, and pointed out the numerous mistakes I made en route to this.

Both the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ordo Hereticus have noted that the marked prophetic abilities of the Bronze Prophets do not appear to have any relation to the populations they draw their recruits from. Their unusually high incidence of Librarians, and those same Librarians' unusual levels of power and powerful gifts of prophecy would appear to be tied to their gene-seed - and it is theorized that this same ability is why the Bronze Prophets may have been created. The benefits of this appear obvious, but those familiar with the Cursed Founding know that a price must have been paid. What that price is, only the Emperor yet knows.

Battlecry
They will hear us roar it in the night. And they will be afraid. - Chaplain Andor Spurrier

We will take your lives and your souls!

* * *

Updated to revise a bunch of the text and add the Astronomican angle. It occurred to me while I was rereading this. And no, I’m not ripping off the Moirae.

Comments and thoughts very welcome.

Edited by Octavulg, 07 March 2013 - 07:11 AM.

[Commissar Molotov]

I wondered who'd used the quote from Diablo.

Which of the contests was this entered into?

[voi shet magir]

I am impressed by your dedication to the marine painter, and also you competence with that whole passive voice IA thing that usually grates when people who aren't you try to use it.

Golden wants to look at the Emperor, and his eyes melt, and then what? What does it mean for the rest of the article?

[Octavulg]

Contest 3, IIRC. The non-standard codex one. They would work quite well as a Chaos army (which actually holds them well to the old Cursed Founding rules).

I love that quote from Diablo. The actual Halls of the Blind weren't as cool as I'd hoped, so I tried to make mine a bit neater.

* * *

Thank you very much.

They're a Cursed Founding chapter. Looking at the Emperor triggered their curse, and now all their Librarians fall into madness and have their eyes rot out. Classic overconfidence causing tragedy and downfall. It's the manifestation of their Curse - and they've missed the point, and are now trying to use it for their own ends. They're not humbled, and they're just clinging to their beliefs all the harder now that they've been shown that they might be wrong. I should probably work on that.

I also really should make it a little more evident which of those rumours is the truth.

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm a little confused why they're 'Bronze' prophets, yet their Chapter scheme appears to be white and pink. I'm not one of those that insists that "Red Swords" need necessarily be red - the Red Scorpions and the Dark Hands are just two Chapters that show there's greater flexibility than that. Yet what of their scheme is bronze? What significance does bronze have?

They can see what you see not...vision milky then eyes rot...when you turn, they will be gone...whispering their hidden song... - Excerpt from the heretical ramblings of Melchior Keb, believed by heretics and unbelievers to be a prophet.

Overworked, I think. You would only need to say "Excerpt from the heretical ramblings of the 'prophet' Melchior Keb."

Long and strange is the saga of the Bronze Prophets chapter of the Adeptus Astartes. Though once the finest of marines, the calamities which have afflicted them have caused many to question both their faith and their purity. There can be little doubt that their origins lie in that most benighted of times - the Cursed Founding.

The finest of Marines? I'd suggest qualifying that statement with 'among the'.

As is usual for many Cursed Founding chapters, little or nothing is confirmed about the creation and early years of the Bronze Prophets. Despite this, many horrific legends surround them. Whether these legends are created by the Prophets themselves to spread fear and horror to their enemies, or are whispers of truth that have slowly spread across the Imperium is impossible to say.

I'm not sure about this paragraph - we don't know that 'little or nothing is confirmed...' about most Cursed Founding Chapters. We know the Sons of Antaeus, the Lamenters, so on and so forth were created in the twenty-first founding. As a result, we know some facts. Ultimately, this paragraph doesn't contribute to the article and I'd suggest simply removing it.

Legend tells us that the Bronze Prophets, in the early years of their founding, were mighty and strong. Their marines were keen of eye, strong of limb, and sharp of intellect, even by the standards of Space Marines. The enemies of mankind fell before them, and the rejoicing was great in the Halls of the Prophets, their monastery on their home world of Pawrath. Their prowess was not limited to the battlefield. Their Librarians were some of the most puissant the Imperium had ever seen, and their gifts at foreseeing the future almost unparalleled. Their psykers took the myriad strands of the future and wove them to form a tapestry which pleased the Prophets, letting the Emperor guide them in the use of their gifts to produce success on the battlefield. In dark corners of the Imperium, it was whispered that the power and might of the Prophets
heralded the dawning of a new era for the Imperium, and that their capability, honor, and foresight might be a sign of the Emperor's return. Such mutterings, of course, drifted to the Bronze Prophets ears, and they were pleased. It is said that it was this pleasure that was their downfall.

I don't think you should use '...tells us...' in your article, as that seems a little too familiar and confessional. The IA article isn't really the place for it. I would, however, suggest expanding slightly upon this, letting us have a bit more detail and a little less hyperbole - this is a Chapter that's fallen somewhat from grace, and as a result it helps to appreciate them at their height in order to fully comprehend the scope of their descent.

The Chief Librarian of the Bronze Prophets was Montress the Golden, a man whose powers surpassed even those of the abnormally powerful Bronze Prophets. He was most gifted at foreseeing the future, as well, and often used this gift to push his sight beyond the limits which bound his compatriots. With his gift, he saw from the dawn of the Imperium to the end of time itself. Some said that what he saw there had driven him
mad, but if so, he showed no sign of it. Always he was a marine of the Emperor. But there remained dark spots, which his vision could not see. These dark spots surrounded the Emperor, and Montress hungered for a vision of his lord. With such a vision, he knew he could see the true path for the chapter and the Imperium, and change the galaxy as his master would want. One night, when the four moons of Pawrath aligned in the sky, he called together the three other most powerful Librarians of the chapter, that together they might do what he alone could not. They would look on the face of the Emperor.

Together, they reached out across the fullness and breadth of time, twisting the very fabric of space itself. They looked forward into the future, and back into the past at the same time, and at the same time as that they looked nowhere at all. And as they raised their heads to tell each other of their triumph, their very eyes poured from their heads, now dust and emptiness, and their sanity drifted away with their eyes. Ever since, says the legend, the Librarians of the Bronze Prophets have succumbed to the same curse as they reach the apex of their power - their eyes rot away, and their minds rot with their eyes.

I'm a little unsure about this. Tigurius and Mephiston are generally painted as being pretty much the most powerful Space Marine psykers. Tigurius is predisposed to visions and dreams, but the sheer power of Montress seems somewhat unfeasible to me - even as an Alpha-class psyker, I'm not sure he could view ten thousand years of history just like that. It's also not clearly worded that he couldn't see the Emperor's face - I'm referring specifically to the 'dark spots' reference. If he can view the events of the Heresy, surely he'd be able to see the Emperor's face? I realise it's a conceit for the furtherance of your Chapter, and yet I'm unsure.

As a note on narratological progression, you're talking about Pawrath before you've told us about it being their homeworld.

You have to consider that the Imperium is an environment where idolatry is fully encouraged. Statues of the Emperor abound. If you've ever seen the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer there are a number of depictions of the Emperor (at least two or three). Why the significance of 'seeing the face of the Emperor'? I like very much the idea of linking his powers with a number of fellow Librarian in a seance of sorts, but I do wonder if you should scale back Montress's powers a bit. Once he communes with his brothers, you can send that lightning bolt of information down his brain, no questions asked.

Some say that the vision of the Emperor was too much for their flawed natures to bear, and that the Bronze Prophets slew them for their arrogance. Some say that they were destroyed by the strain of attempting to see too much, and that their fate is a lesson from the Emperor for all who would overreach their station. Others claim that it is a mere representation of the inner corruption being a psyker forces on all so cursed. Still others say that though their minds are gone, their gifts of prophecy remain, and that they and those who fall after them are kept chained in limitless ranks below the Chapter's monastery, forever speaking in riddles and parables that the Prophets interpret to steer the course of the Chapter and the Imperium. And some simply say that such a horrible fate was only another sign of the Emperor's displeasure at the Cursed Founding, forced into manifestation by Montress' meddling with space and time.

This paragraph is terrible, honestly. It's too long and convoluted. And I really have to wonder just how wide-spread this knowledge would be - certainly the Inquistion would be after these Librarians, for a number of reasons.

Also, 'limitless' ranks?

and go some way toward compensating for the usual supply and equipment shortages common to Cursed Founding chapters.

The Black Dragons, Fire Hawks and Lamenters didn't seem to suffer from supply and equipment shortages. I don't think it's necessarily an automatic restriction.

Honestly, I think your Beliefs section should be far larger. You talk in your later post about 'overconfidence' and 'clinging to their beliefs' - you need to go further and tell us more. Certainly, I find it hard to believe any other Librarian would've followed in the path set by Montress. Perhaps you could talk about their relationship with the Eldar - it strikes me that they might well be interested in learning how the Farseers can do it so reliably. You could also look at how the rank-and-file of the Chapter relate to the Librarians.

In the homeworld section I'd perhaps consider why it's a worthwhile world to recruit from. I had wondered what made the psykers from this planet so powerful/plentiful. I would've thought the Black Ships would've made this planet a prime recruiting ground! You mention it in the gene-seed section, and I suppose the casual reader could see it as a token gesture to the Thousand Sons, and yet I still find myself a bit stuck. I'm not sure psychic powers have ever been stated to be related to the gene-seed - I don't think it says so in IA: Blood Ravens, and the Relictors article talks about how warp storm activity increased the percentage of psykers on Torva Minoris.

I think what I'd like to see is a slight restructuring of the article. The Chapter as it is seems simply a vehicle for the story of Montress - nothing more. It's a bit awkward, as was seen in how you talk about 'Pawrath's four moons'. Look at how the themes of arrogance and over-reaching confidence can be applied throughout the rest of the article. I'd also think that looking at your Chapter's relationships with other institutions in the Imperium would be very useful indeed in helping to ground them.

The idea of a psychic conclave, or Librarians communing in a seance of sorts in order to interpret the Emperor's tarot or clarify an ambiguous vision is something you could certainly look at including. Like a string of fairy lights, if one Librarian blows, perhaps the others can end up being damaged from the mental feedback - showing the risk of tampering with the strands of fate.

[Octavulg]

I'm a little confused why they're 'Bronze' prophets, yet their Chapter scheme appears to be white and pink. I'm not one of those that insists that "Red Swords" need necessarily be red - the Red Scorpions and the Dark Hands are just two Chapters that show there's greater flexibility than that. Yet what of their scheme is bronze? What significance does bronze have?

It felt all gothicky. Bronze and brass are those great, gothic, easily tarnished colors that feel so appropriate to the grimdarknessofthefarfuturewherethereisonlywar. It evokes bells, tarnishing, statues, age and nasty little primitive wars.

Also, you must admit that the Lavender Prophets lacks the same ring. I was planning to do all decorations and such in bronze. A good start to that would be to redo the scheme to involve that, I think.

Frankly, the whole thing was hammered together at the last minute and draws heavily from the Cask of Amontillado (Montress the Golden? Montress d'Or? I'm an evil man) et al. Gothgothgothgothgoth . I, of course, am not quite as good at this as Poe.

Overworked, I think. You would only need to say "Excerpt from the heretical ramblings of the 'prophet' Melchior Keb."

100% correct. Amended.

The finest of Marines? I'd suggest qualifying that statement with 'among the'.

Indeed. Amended.

I'm not sure about this paragraph - we don't know that 'little or nothing is confirmed...' about most Cursed Founding Chapters. We know the Sons of Antaeus, the Lamenters, so on and so forth were created in the twenty-first founding. As a result, we know some facts. Ultimately, this paragraph doesn't contribute to the article and I'd suggest simply removing it.

Well, it was the largest since the first, and we've met like six chapters...

That said, I was really meaning to refer more to the details of their creation than to anything else.

I don't think you should use '...tells us...' in your article, as that seems a little too familiar and confessional.

Dead right. Changed to 'says'.

The IA article isn't really the place for it. I would, however, suggest expanding slightly upon this, letting us have a bit more detail and a little less hyperbole - this is a Chapter that's fallen somewhat from grace, and as a result it helps to appreciate them at their height in order to fully comprehend the scope of their descent.

Indeed. I'm probably better off going with a DA style semi-omnipotence, aren't I?

I'm a little unsure about this. Tigurius and Mephiston are generally painted as being pretty much the most powerful Space Marine psykers. Tigurius is predisposed to visions and dreams, but the sheer power of Montress seems somewhat unfeasible to me - even as an Alpha-class psyker, I'm not sure he could view ten thousand years of history just like that. It's also not clearly worded that he couldn't see the Emperor's face - I'm referring specifically to the 'dark spots' reference. If he can view the events of the Heresy, surely he'd be able to see the Emperor's face? I realise it's a conceit for the furtherance of your Chapter, and yet I'm unsure.

Well, the Emperor is a hugely powerful psyker. He could distort things around him somehow.

In regards to his power, you have a definite point. Of course, Montress is now dead or insane, so Tigurius and Mephiston are still #1.

As a note on narratological progression, you're talking about Pawrath before you've told us about it being their homeworld.

Pawrath being their homeworld is mentioned in the previous paragraph, actually.

You have to consider that the Imperium is an environment where idolatry is fully encouraged. Statues of the Emperor abound. If you've ever seen the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer there are a number of depictions of the Emperor (at least two or three). Why the significance of 'seeing the face of the Emperor'?

There's depictions of religious figures (and others) all over the place. However, they're often idealized and such - and that's after mere hundreds of years. After a couple of millenia, who would know what the Emperor truly looked like?

Plus, it's something the man who can see everything doesn't know. That right there could be motivation enough.

You're telling me that, given the opportunity, Christians wouldn't try to see the face of Jesus? Or even of a lesser figure, like John the Baptist?

I like very much the idea of linking his powers with a number of fellow Librarian in a seance of sorts, but I do wonder if you should scale back Montress's powers a bit. Once he communes with his brothers, you can send that lightning bolt of information down his brain, no questions asked.

Fair enough. Perhaps they need to assemble in conclave in order to get the power to scry back to the heresy at all, and he called all the Librarians together in order to achieve the goal of seeing the Emperor.

This paragraph is terrible, honestly. It's too long and convoluted.

Agreed, honestly. However, I don't entirely want to just flat-out state what happened to the Bronze Prophets - I kind of like having these initial years being lost in legend, while I could cover the rest of the chapter in more rational and conventional terms.

Amended like so:
Some say that they were destroyed by the strain of attempting to see too much, and that their fate is a lesson from the Emperor for all who would overreach their station. Others claim that it is a mere representation of the inner corruption being a psyker forces on all so cursed. And some simply say that such a horrible fate was only another sign of the Emperor's displeasure at the Cursed Founding, forced into manifestation by Montress' meddling with space and time. Whatever the reason, the legends all agree they and those who fall after them remain chained below the monastery, forever speaking in riddles with which the Prophets steer the course of the Chapter and the Imperium.

Does that work better?

And I really have to wonder just how wide-spread this knowledge would be - certainly the Inquistion would be after these Librarians, for a number of reasons.

Well, there is precedent for stuff being in IAs that no one would really know. That said, the Inquisition should be sniffing around - but the usual secretiveness of chapters should defend them somewhat from this.

How the rumours got out and spread is an even better question. One which honestly stumps me a little. This is the sort of large-scale disaster that might leak to the people of the home world and further from there.

Also, 'limitless' ranks?

Hyperbole. Changed. I want vast, vaulting caverns full of half-dead mad superhumans who scream forth prophecy from cracked and bleeding lips.

Y'know. Like everybody wants.

QUOTE
and go some way toward compensating for the usual supply and equipment shortages common to Cursed Founding chapters.

The Black Dragons, Fire Hawks and Lamenters didn't seem to suffer from supply and equipment shortages. I don't think it's necessarily an automatic restriction.

True. Mostly prompted by the old restrictions in the Cursed Founding rules.

Honestly, I think your Beliefs section should be far larger. You talk in your later post about 'overconfidence' and 'clinging to their beliefs' - you need to go further and tell us more.

Indeed.

Certainly, I find it hard to believe any other Librarian would've followed in the path set by Montress.

Ah, I was unclear here. I meant they eventually all lose their eyes and their minds, not that they all set up a giant scrying conference. They get too powerful, and they fall. Whether they do anything or not.

Perhaps you could talk about their relationship with the Eldar - it strikes me that they might well be interested in learning how the Farseers can do it so reliably.

They might. OTOH, what with the overconfidence et al, they may not feel that they've done anything wrong - the Eldar only succeed because they're dirty xenos.

Of course, them hunting down Eldar for information and crazy experiments could be wholly appropriate.

You could also look at how the rank-and-file of the Chapter relate to the Librarians.

Good plan.

In the homeworld section I'd perhaps consider why it's a worthwhile world to recruit from. I had wondered what made the psykers from this planet so powerful/plentiful. I would've thought the Black Ships would've made this planet a prime recruiting ground!

More detail on this is a good idea.

You mention it in the gene-seed section, and I suppose the casual reader could see it as a token gesture to the Thousand Sons, and yet I still find myself a bit stuck. I'm not sure psychic powers have ever been stated to be related to the gene-seed - I don't think it says so in IA: Blood Ravens, and the Relictors article talks about how warp storm activity increased the percentage of psykers on Torva Minoris.

IIRC, IA Thousand Sons claims that the higher rate of psychics was related to the genetics.

Actually, you're looking at the wrong part of what they do for who their Primarch is. It's not how many of them see, it's that they see...

I think what I'd like to see is a slight restructuring of the article. The Chapter as it is seems simply a vehicle for the story of Montress - nothing more. It's a bit awkward, as was seen in how you talk about 'Pawrath's four moons'. Look at how the themes of arrogance and over-reaching confidence can be applied throughout the rest of the article. I'd also think that looking at your Chapter's relationships with other institutions in the Imperium would be very useful indeed in helping to ground them.

Good idea.

The idea of a psychic conclave, or Librarians communing in a seance of sorts in order to interpret the Emperor's tarot or clarify an ambiguous vision is something you could certainly look at including. Like a string of fairy lights, if one Librarian blows, perhaps the others can end up being damaged from the mental feedback - showing the risk of tampering with the strands of fate.

Indeed. Keep in mind that the whole eye thing is their curse, and the seance just activates it.

Thanks a lot for your help, Mol. Greatly appreciated.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Very interesting. I'm actually liking the idea of a Chapter that has taken a fall but didn't take the hint. Very cool.

Other than a couple grammatical hiccups, my concerns are few. One is that you state that they are not well supplied because they are a Cursed Founding Chapter. I think this should be expanded on; it's not a reason in itself but a blanket application of the ill fortune of Cursed Founding Chapters.

The scheme is killing me. Is there any significance behind the pink?

I'd elaborate on how these 'dark rumors' spread and how arrogant they are.

Otherwise, sweet stuff.

[Octavulg]

It's supposed to be more lavender than pink. If everyone else sees it as pink, I should revise it. It's the scheme I thought of for the Praetors of Orpheus before I discovered they actually already had a scheme. Shame. Nobody ever does pastel Space Marines. Apparently, inthegrimdarknessofthefarfuturethereisonly black, red and grey.

I'll elaborate a bit on the poorly supplied aspect, the arrogance, and on the rumours (sort of. It's tricky to figure out how, honestly).

[Donkey Kong]

Hey, Octavulg! I know we didn't hit it off at first, and I apologize for that. Congratulations on getting the Ice Lords in the Librarium, and hopefully I can be of some help here.

Origins

Some said that his quest for the truths of the past had driven him mad, but if so, he showed no sign of it. But there remained dark spots,

A very large nit pick, but I think that “but” is a bit overused here, maybe just getting rid of the but before “if so” would smooth it out a little.

Whatever the reason, the legends all agree they and those who fall to the curse thereafter remain chained below the monastery, forever speaking in riddles with which the Prophets steer the course of the Chapter and the Imperium.

I cannot lie, that was a very interesting read. It was gruesome, gave me a rather nasty mental image too, but this is the only bit that confuses me. If the librarians are insane, why does the Chapter continue to listen to them? Also I know it's kinda nitpick-y, but writing like the Chapter is directing the entire Imperium is a little overwhelming.

Home World

rising sharply out of the dust and rock that surrounds it, often framed by crackling lightning and the shrieksand roars of the terrible creatures

There is a typo here, should be shrieks and.

Beneath the monastery lie seemingly endless catacombs, tombs and vaults, where the rumoured blind seers of the chapter may lie.

I apologize beforehand if I come off as ignorant:
The blind seers, if I read correctly, are the librarians who have had their eyes disintegrate and mark the Chapter's curse. Now, you've jumped between the legend and the actual events and for what it's worth, you can't seem to agree on whether or not the curse and the blind seers even exist.

If it is a curse and the Chapter chains them up, which I believe you have said, I think you could have the whole legend explain the proposed origins (which it currently does, and does very well I might add), and then have everything else explain that the blind seers do exist and are chained to some room in the Fortress Monestary.

I know you only intended for it to be the beasts, but I think it might be interesting if the blind seers could also be rumored to contribute to the moaning? Food for thought.

horrific beasts of the wastelands

You've mentioned beasts quite a lot in this section, and I'm honestly curious. I know it's jumping to conclusions, but I'm honestly imagining varghulfs and I think it'd be interesting if you expanded on what they are.

With the emphasis you've placed on psykers, and with a seemingly religious populace, how would they view psyker children? I know you didn't really give the idea and I am just assuming, but it seems that there are more or more powerful psykers in the Chapter, would it make sense for you to have a higher than average psyker population?

with many choosing a life of quiet contemplation in monastery or convent

There is a wee grammatical mistake here, it would be easily solved by you simply putting an “a” in between “in” and “monastery”.

Combat Doctrine

in combat roles, providing a valuable role in assisting their brethren in combat.

It is somewhat redundant to repeat combat.

so they are both nigh-indestructable

You've misspelled indestructible.

few Librarians seem to see more than a century of combat before they disappear. This, of course, only adds to the dark rumours surrounding the eventual fate of Bronze Prophet Librarians.

This sort of clarifies my whole issue with whether or not the blind librarians actually exist. Are Chaplains responsible for taking them away, and if they're so active in combat, wouldn't the Space Marines see the librarians taken away.

Nonetheless, they are a powerful weapon in the Chapter's arsenal, and go some way toward compensating for the usual supply and equipment shortages common to Cursed Founding chapters.

This is new information to me, and a little weak for an explanation. Also, just for curiosity's sake, how else do they manage with supply shortages?

a fact that does not seem to diminish their cruel tendencies in this regard.

A very nasty habit, eh? It's little quirks like these that make a lot of Chapters interesting to me, my only question is whether or not you're going to expand on why they're so malicious? Hunting tendencies of the “horrific beasts” could be a good reference here. There seems to be a small formatting error here with the word, “regard”, just thought I'd point it out.

Beliefs
This section is a little underdeveloped for now, as I see it, and I think that some of the outmaneuvering could be in the combat doctrine. In the beginning you mentioned something about the Chapter's faith being questionable:

the calamities which have afflicted them have caused many to question both their faith and their purity.

From what I've read, they are more than loyal to the Imperium, trying to see into the future for the benefit of mankind. They also got their curse from a legend surrounding a desire to see the Emperor. Their faith doesn't seem to be misplaced at all. Their purity is a completely different issue, but you've addressed that very well so far.

Gene-seed

Their unusually high incidence of Librarians, and those same Librarians unusual levels of power would appear to be tied to their geneseed - and it is theorized that this same ability is why the Bronze Prophets may have been modified in the first place.

Well, this throws my original idea of a psyker population on the homeworld to the wind, but maybe no so much. I don't recall ever hearing about psychic powers coming from the gene seed, but heightened powers may have some influence.

You also have gene-seed as a single word instead of the dash in between them.

I honestly hope this helps you with your IA. They're a very cool and quirky Chapter. I also apologize if any spelling corrections are due to differences in European and American English.

EDIT: Just to throw in these final two cents, the trim does look like pink, lavender is a dark purple, currently you've got a magenta.

Best of luck,
KHK

Edited by KingHongKong, 05 January 2010 - 01:13 AM.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

The only thing not going for me is the color scheme. Ooh, I have heard about these bronze prophets, said to be legends even among other astartes - but their color scheme is white and pink? Really. I think I am going to call in some favors from some night lords over here, I don't care if they aren't loyal they at least have a decent color scheme.

That may be a little harsh, but still. I have a special dislike for marines who claim to be the terror of the galaxy and where ridiculus colors. IFs, UMs, and Emperors Children would be so much better if their color schemes weren't a bright color! Bright yellow and blue! Really people, who was the person who thought that was a good idea? Good thing the IFs have the crimson fists to redeem them, and UMs have a lot of successor possibilities if it weren't for - No, not going to bring that up. My point is bright colors are for eldar and tau. No self respecting marine is going to paint their armour sky blue or next to neon yellow. The only reason the Emperors Children do so is because they are so addicted to sensory overload they don't care what anyone thinks.

End of rant.

My point is this - White is fine, but marines don't do pink. Rainbow marines don't do pink. So my suggestion is this - change what is pink to be bronze. Don't know how you are going to pull that off with the marine painter, but anything is better than pink.

[Octavulg]

KHK:

A very large nit pick, but I think that “but” is a bit overused here, maybe just getting rid of the but before “if so” would smooth it out a little.

No nit-pick too large. Though here we see the problem with grammar nitpicks, which is why I eventually stopped bothering with them until the Chapter's submitted to the Librarium - some bastard of an author can just go and rewrite the entire paragraph, making the effort pointless . This piece has disappeared in the current revision, which should be up soon.

Also, thank you for not going back to the Stone Hearts. I'd have been forced to answer most questions re them with "I don't really give a damn these days." Which would be true, but rude.

I cannot lie, that was a very interesting read. It was gruesome, gave me a rather nasty mental image too, but this is the only bit that confuses me. If the librarians are insane, why does the Chapter continue to listen to them? Also I know it's kinda nitpick-y, but writing like the Chapter is directing the entire Imperium is a little overwhelming.

Crazy people producing accurate prophetic visions is a rather old concept. They'd hardly be the first.

Fair point re Imperium thingy. Though of course, the Bronze Prophets think they are. Also it feels overblown, legendary, and conspiracy-theory-esque. Which kinda fits the theme, IMO.

There is a typo here, should be shrieks and.

Also fixed, though shrieksand is a concept that intrigues me. The home world may change to accomodate it.

I apologize beforehand if I come off as ignorant:
The blind seers, if I read correctly, are the librarians who have had their eyes disintegrate and mark the Chapter's curse. Now, you've jumped between the legend and the actual events and for what it's worth, you can't seem to agree on whether or not the curse and the blind seers even exist.

Hey, I did say rumoured blind seers.

I'll try and be a bit clearer. It's supposed to be uncertain, but the IA's supposed to suggest the idea and carefully present only evidence suggesting the legend is true.

If it is a curse and the Chapter chains them up, which I believe you have said, I think you could have the whole legend explain the proposed origins (which it currently does, and does very well I might add), and then have everything else explain that the blind seers do exist and are chained to some room in the Fortress Monestary.

It always pains me to be explicit. While it often helps (it certainly helped the Ice Lords a lot), I've always greatly enjoyed IAs that play a little more hard-to-get with the truth. I'm going to try and stick with avoiding directly confirming the legend for as long as possible. If I must, I'll do so, but if I can avoid it, I'd prefer to. I only have two IAs with dark secrets, so I'd like to be all cloak and dagger about one of them.

Though it's totally true, just to get that out of the way.

I know you only intended for it to be the beasts, but I think it might be interesting if the blind seers could also be rumored to contribute to the moaning? Food for thought.

Not bad. Not bad at all. I've been needing a quote for the home world, and now I have one. And a Kipling reference (in the quote itself). So a win on two counts.

You've mentioned beasts quite a lot in this section, and I'm honestly curious. I know it's jumping to conclusions, but I'm honestly imagining varghulfs and I think it'd be interesting if you expanded on what they are.

The home world may change vastly in character (though I kind of like its simplicity next to Franklin's World or Cathe). I'm really not a fan of the beasts, and may get rid of them for a concept I like better. Renaissance Italy has some appeal, and it's appropriately gothicky.

With the emphasis you've placed on psykers, and with a seemingly religious populace, how would they view psyker children? I know you didn't really give the idea and I am just assuming, but it seems that there are more or more powerful psykers in the Chapter, would it make sense for you to have a higher than average psyker population?

I really, really need to hammer home that the high proportion of psykers is the Chapter, not the population. It's the manifestation of their curse, and their curse is inextricably linked to their geneseed. They were specifically chosen for something their geneseed can do that others cannot. And, no, I'm not telling people what it is.

There is a wee grammatical mistake here, it would be easily solved by you simply putting an “a” in between “in” and “monastery”.

Pluralised them instead, both out of innate contrariness and because it's arguably more correct to talk about plural people going plural places.

It is somewhat redundant to repeat combat.

Hey, this was hammered out in the space of an hour or two for the Iron Man contest, then callously abandoned.

Fixed. You may note that my writing ability derives far more from my abilities at revision than, well, writing ability.

You've misspelled indestructible.

Wordpad has no spellcheck. But I regret nothing.

Fixed.

This sort of clarifies my whole issue with whether or not the blind librarians actually exist. Are Chaplains responsible for taking them away, and if they're so active in combat, wouldn't the Space Marines see the librarians taken away.

Should make it clearer that they disappear from public view. The Chapter knows exactly where they are. Hell, there are likely a few very public witnesses when they drop screaming to the floor and their eyes drip out from behind their hands.

God this is fun to write.

This is new information to me, and a little weak for an explanation. Also, just for curiosity's sake, how else do they manage with supply shortages?

The supply shortages are supposedly a problem faced by all Cursed Founding chapters (see the White Dwarf Cursed Founding rules, available online if you know where to look, not that you should). It's part bad luck and part the fact that Cursed Founding chapters basically have everything they touch turn to excrement.

A very nasty habit, eh? It's little quirks like these that make a lot of Chapters interesting to me, my only question is whether or not you're going to expand on why they're so malicious? Hunting tendencies of the “horrific beasts” could be a good reference here. There seems to be a small formatting error here with the word, “regard”, just thought I'd point it out.

I should expand a little, but beyond a certain point everyone's just going to guess where they came from and how they were modified, and that's no fun.

Error is fixed, and I had thought that came from an error when cutting and pasting into the master document. Weird.

This section is a little underdeveloped for now, as I see it, and I think that some of the outmaneuvering could be in the combat doctrine. In the beginning you mentioned something about the Chapter's faith being questionable:

I have looked at the next several sections, and the only explanation seems to be that divisions were inserted arbitrarily to get it done before the deadline.

From what I've read, they are more than loyal to the Imperium, trying to see into the future for the benefit of mankind. They also got their curse from a legend surrounding a desire to see the Emperor. Their faith doesn't seem to be misplaced at all. Their purity is a completely different issue, but you've addressed that very well so far.

The Imperium is very good at confusing the two, but your point is a good one. It is now purity.

Well, this throws my original idea of a psyker population on the homeworld to the wind, but maybe no so much. I don't recall ever hearing about psychic powers coming from the gene seed, but heightened powers may have some influence.

Thousand Sons did. There's also another Legion where it was suggested that they acquired certain psychic powers because their Primarch had them. And that's all I'm saying on the subject.

You also have gene-seed as a single word instead of the dash in between them.

Fixed.

EDIT: Just to throw in these final two cents, the trim does look like pink, lavender is a dark purple, currently you've got a magenta.

The color scheme has also been revised for the new version, and I'm much, much happier with this one. And this one does look lavender.

I know we didn't hit it off at first, and I apologize for that. Congratulations on getting the Ice Lords in the Librarium, and hopefully I can be of some help here.

No worries, and you were.

* * *
Dark Apostle Thirst:

First, it's supposed to be more a lavender than a pink. It came out brighter than intended, and has been revised as part of the grand 2.0 thing I started working on right after finishing the Ice Lords.

Second, colors aren't scary. Eight foot tall superhumans firing hundreds of high-explosive rockets per minute and ripping people in half with their hands are scary. If they're scary in black, red, or dark blue, they're scary in white, yellow or even pink.

Finally, consider medieval heraldry. Note the points of commonality between space marines and medieval knights. Note that medieval heraldry is about a lot more than scaring your opponent.

Oh, and the chest eagle is supposed to be bronze, more or less. Fortunately, bronze seems to come in about a hundred different shades.

* * *

v.2.0 is up.

[Wildfire]

Two things. First, I love this quote!

The process of becoming an Astartes irrevocably changes the nature of a man. It is the answer to the questions of humanity – and yet it makes the questions pointless. – Apothecary Serris of the Bronze Prophets

Second, I'm curious which chapter other than the Thousand Sons got increased psychic powers from their gene-seed. I don't remember any fluff like that, and I'm curious.

[Octavulg]

Thank you.

And no legion other than the Thousand Sons had generally increased psychic powers. Must have been something more specific.

And that's all I'm saying on the subject.

[Ace Debonair]

The population of the planet has little contact with the Prophets, looking at them as somewhere between protectors, demons and gods. Many former Chapter Masters and Captains are preserved in the memory of the population as mystical heroes and villains. A deeply religious people, the Pawrathans are devout in their worship of the Emperor, with many choosing a life of quiet contemplation in monasteries or convents. Otherwise, they tend to be farmers and herders. Of course, fending off the depredations of the horrific beasts of the wastelands is enough to make even simple people such as them hardy and dangerous enough for Space Marines.

That last sentence needs editing slightly, I think. We all know that those people themselves don't just become space marines, but that's what the sentence implies.

And that's the only mistake that grabbed me by the face. This chapter is very entertaining to read about!

Also, I think that colour scheme is pretty good.
I personally would have added more bronze, since right now the name is slightly at odds with the colours, but heck. It's a good scheme.

[Lysimachus]

I have to say, in terms of ideas, I really can't see anything wrong with this one, it certainly conjures up some very cool mental images.

Colour scheme is good, does still look a bit pink to my eyes, but I don't think that's a problem, it's not a girly pink in any way and as an accent colour it's a refreshing change. More bronze could work though, although I'm not sure where I'd add it...? EDIT: Hmm, just looking at scheme again, what about reversing the inside of the shoulder pads, i.e. bronze with white markings?

Are you at the stage where you'd like more detailed proof-reading, grammar crit, etc or are you still developing the ideas? Did notice one or two little bits, but there's no point going through them if you're still planning bigger changes!

All in all, very nice though.

Lysimachus

Edited by Strike Captain Lysimachus, 05 January 2010 - 07:56 AM.

[Octavulg]

That last sentence needs editing slightly, I think. We all know that those people themselves don't just become space marines, but that's what the sentence implies.

Edited from Space Marines to recruitment.

And that's the only mistake that grabbed me by the face. This chapter is very entertaining to read about!

Danke.

Also, I think that colour scheme is pretty good.
I personally would have added more bronze, since right now the name is slightly at odds with the colours, but heck. It's a good scheme.

Indeed. The scheme came before the Chapter (I was going to use it for the Praetors of Orpheus, but it turns out they've got blue instead of lavender).

* * *

I have to say, in terms of ideas, I really can't see anything wrong with this one, it certainly conjures up some very cool mental images.

Thanks.

Colour scheme is good, does still look a bit pink to my eyes, but I don't think that's a problem, it's not a girly pink in any way and as an accent colour it's a refreshing change. More bronze could work though, although I'm not sure where I'd add it...? EDIT: Hmm, just looking at scheme again, what about reversing the inside of the shoulder pads, i.e. bronze with white markings?

I'm not really open to changing it, unfortunately. Doing what you suggest'd make it harder for me to paint in Epic, and I already have enough problems in that regard.

Are you at the stage where you'd like more detailed proof-reading, grammar crit, etc or are you still developing the ideas? Did notice one or two little bits, but there's no point going through them if you're still planning bigger changes!

I'm still trying to accumulate ideas for them, honestly. Are there any points that seem to need expansion or further explanation? Any questions you have about them best answered in the IA? That sort of thing.

* * *

Like I said, I'm looking for places where the IA should be or could be expanded a bit. Right now it feels a little short - not very, but a little.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Perhaps you could talk about their relationship with the Eldar - it strikes me that they might well be interested in learning how the Farseers can do it so reliably.

They might. OTOH, what with the overconfidence et al, they may not feel that they've done anything wrong - the Eldar only succeed because they're dirty xenos.

Of course, them hunting down Eldar for information and crazy experiments could be wholly appropriate.

If you do go down that route, perhaps some 'friends' to help cover up your activities would be useful? An uneasy marriage of convenience could be made with some Revivicators (Thorian Sourcebook, page 8) of a more Radical bent.

Actually, you're looking at the wrong part of what they do for who their Primarch is. It's not how many of them see, it's that they see...

I can think of two possibilities, and the absence of something rules one of them out.

[Octavulg]

If you do go down that route, perhaps some 'friends' to help cover up your activities would be useful? An uneasy marriage of convenience could be made with some Revivicators (Thorian Sourcebook, page 8) of a more Radical bent.

*Octavulg looks at what you wrote. Realizes you're quoting him. Reflects that he should reread the thread more closely. *

That said - good idea. I may expand a little in this direction.

I can think of two possibilities, and the absence of something rules one of them out. msn-wink.gif

Keep in mind, I may just have not mentioned it so as not to make it too obvious. Also, they were tinkered with, so some of the telltales may not be there.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

I can think of two possibilities, and the absence of something rules one of them out.

Keep in mind, I may just have not mentioned it so as not to make it too obvious. Also, they were tinkered with, so some of the telltales may not be there.

If it's what I think it is, then I don't think you should mention it. Subtlety seems rare in IAs these days.

[Lysimachus]

Ok, some thoughts on this one finally:

Origins
Good. Nothing in particular to add here but to be honest I’d move the quote at the top from here to the top of the Organization section. It’s brilliantly written but it doesn’t come into this bit, and would fit better further down.

‘Evil in my sight’ section

Some say that they were destroyed by the strain of attempting to see too much, and that their fate is a lesson from the Emperor for all who would overreach their station. Others claim that it is a mere representation of the inner corruption being a psyker forces on all so cursed. Whatever the reason, the legends all agree they and those who fall to the curse thereafter remain chained below the monastery, forever speaking in riddles that the Bronze Prophets use to steer the course of the Chapter and the Imperium.

What do the Bronze Prophets themselves think is the reason? How do they feel about what Montress and his brothers did?

Homeworld
Nothing much to add here, I guess if it needs bulking up a bit perhaps some more detail on the ‘horrific beasts’

Beliefs/Org
I get that the Librarians are held in high regard by the Chapter, but how do they themselves feel about their gifts and the curse that they must know is coming? Do they each think they could be the one to overcome it (and likely fail, of course) or are they resigned to their fate, that one day they will join their mad brothers in the depths? Not sure which section you could add that to, maybe it’s more a beliefs thing…

Gene-seed
Little point, but how is the gene-seed otherwise? Stable? Do the non-psychic brethren have any problems; are they affected by the curse in any way?


Still love it, just some thoughts if you’re looking to expand further!

Lysimachus

PersonalChallenge 5/30

Edited by Strike Captain Lysimachus, 07 January 2010 - 09:42 PM.

[Argon]

This is really good. The whole "Marines that are superior to other Marines" thing had some hints of MISS to me, but the fact that they took a fall but haven't gotten the message balances it out in my opinion.

The only real issue I had was this:

The Bronze Prophets' Librarians were some of the most puissant the Imperium had ever seen

Fancy word is fancy . I had to look it up, which is a rare experience for me. I'm curious as to why you chose that word. You could replace it with "powerful" and keep the meaning of the sentence.

GAUNTLET COMMENTS CHALLENGE: 1/20

Edited by Argon, 07 January 2010 - 10:53 PM.

[Octavulg]

Origins
Good. Nothing in particular to add here but to be honest I’d move the quote at the top from here to the top of the Organization section. It’s brilliantly written but it doesn’t come into this bit, and would fit better further down.

True. It's been replaced with a Blue Oyster Cult/Moorcock reference.

What do the Bronze Prophets themselves think is the reason? How do they feel about what Montress and his brothers did?

Good question. I'm not sure they think about it too much - it risks damaging their belief system. I can think of several possibilities - they blame the ritual, think what happened was a good thing, or have decided that, hey, just because we're almost as awesome as the Emperor doesn't mean we ARE as awesome as the Emperor. They also may not have decided yet - its only been a few millenia.

Likely the "not quite as awesome" thing.

If it weren't for the fact that everyone who gets really, really powerful falls down with their eyes bleeding out of their skulls, I suspect someone would have already tried this again. These boys are quite arrogant.

Homeworld
Nothing much to add here, I guess if it needs bulking up a bit perhaps some more detail on the ‘horrific beasts’

I'm actually not really satisfied with the home world. It feels so cookie-cutter. I'm tempted to move a bit toward Renaissance Italy, since it feels a little more gothic.

I get that the Librarians are held in high regard by the Chapter, but how do they themselves feel about their gifts and the curse that they must know is coming? Do they each think they could be the one to overcome it (and likely fail, of course) or are they resigned to their fate, that one day they will join their mad brothers in the depths? Not sure which section you could add that to, maybe it’s more a beliefs thing…

I'd imagine the individual reaction varies. I'll likely throw in something about the wildly varying temperaments of BP Librarians.

Gene-seed
Little point, but how is the gene-seed otherwise? Stable? Do the non-psychic brethren have any problems; are they affected by the curse in any way?

I shall expand this - I'm thinking I may mention how the modern Bronze Prophets seem to not quite measure up to those of legend, though the geneseed is of course unchanged. Reader's decision whether this is simply the difference between legend and reality or the corruption extends deeper than suspected.

* * *

This is really good. The whole "Marines that are superior to other Marines" thing had some hints of MISS to me, but the fact that they took a fall but haven't gotten the message balances it out in my opinion.

I was intending to mention the ambiguity of the legend's claims in the geneseed section, as mentioned above.

Also, none of my chapters are incredibly super, because I always end up commanding them IRL. I assure you, tis a great leveller.

Fancy word is fancy laugh.gif . I had to look it up, which is a rare experience for me. I'm curious as to why you chose that word. You could replace it with "powerful" and keep the meaning of the sentence.

I could. But I like fancy words. Hell, you should use as many fancy words as you can - but you should always try and be sure you know what they mean.

Also, it seemed to fit with the slightly-overwrought nature of the original prose for the piece. I was thinking of "The Cask of Amontillado" a lot when I wrote it first. As you might notice from the protagonist's name.

[Donkey Kong]

I'm tempted to move a bit toward Renaissance Italy, since it feels a little more gothic.

I have a few mixed reactions to this. Firstly, the Renaissance is pretty famous for making a huge population skeptical on the teachings of the church, you're people are extremely pious, you say yourself that most have either dedicated themselves to the Imperial cult or are just farmers.

I was thinking of "The Cask of Amontillado"

Good taste in short stories, Octavulg. Are you a mason ?

As far as your homeworld section, these are usually my favorites to write, but it still seems lacking. I know you wanted a sprinkle of "Everything you know is a lie" but personal opinion says you've used a handful instead of a pinch.
First, it starts with a rather brilliant quote, including the possibility that it's the blind seers making noises. However, after that there's almost no mention of it. It's just food for thought, but maybe you can tie in some belief of demons with the populace and the marines by having cattle trails crossing close to the Fortress Monastery and have farmers tell stories. You could even have people just saying the noises are inhuman and demonic.
The beasts add, if anything, the possibility that the blind seers aren't even there under the Fortress Monastery. I think that if you expand on what they are it makes it more vague where you want in around the Chapter's secrets.
On recruitment, it was easy to tell that the people were hardy even when you just said that they're living next to beasts that are a match for super human space marines. You say that they make for a good picking, but you still don't say how. Does the Chapter go into towns and seek out children? Do they visit the churches? Do they wait for little sheep boys with the flock to come around the mountain and beat a monster with a walking stick?

Sorry I don't have time to comment more, but something's better than nothing, right?
KHK

[Octavulg]

I have a few mixed reactions to this. Firstly, the Renaissance is pretty famous for making a huge population skeptical on the teachings of the church, you're people are extremely pious, you say yourself that most have either dedicated themselves to the Imperial cult or are just farmers.

I'd change the people, too, don't worry. And trust me, there were a lot of good pious folk in the Renaissance.

Good taste in short stories, Octavulg. Are you a mason laugh.gif ?

I prefer Scotch Tape.

As far as your homeworld section, these are usually my favorites to write, but it still seems lacking. I know you wanted a sprinkle of "Everything you know is a lie" but personal opinion says you've used a handful instead of a pinch.
First, it starts with a rather brilliant quote, including the possibility that it's the blind seers making noises. However, after that there's almost no mention of it. It's just food for thought, but maybe you can tie in some belief of demons with the populace and the marines by having cattle trails crossing close to the Fortress Monastery and have farmers tell stories. You could even have people just saying the noises are inhuman and demonic.
The beasts add, if anything, the possibility that the blind seers aren't even there under the Fortress Monastery. I think that if you expand on what they are it makes it more vague where you want in around the Chapter's secrets.

It does muddy things in the wrong way a bit, doesn't it. I'm thinking the home world needs a rebuild. All there is to it. Too cliche in any case right now.

On recruitment, it was easy to tell that the people were hardy even when you just said that they're living next to beasts that are a match for super human space marines. You say that they make for a good picking, but you still don't say how. Does the Chapter go into towns and seek out children? Do they visit the churches? Do they wait for little sheep boys with the flock to come around the mountain and beat a monster with a walking stick?

I kinda like the last one.

I'll come up with something.

[The Nephilim]

… the annihilation of an Iron Warrior Grand Company at the Battle of Sinclair's Hope.

I find this one a stretch. How could a single chapter destroy an entire grand company that also uses slave-fodder and traitor guard, which probably outnumbers the Codex Chapter anywhere from 2:1-3:1 in marines alone? That seems highly unlikely.

Nonetheless, their talents were not limited to mere prediction - stories of Bronze Prophet Librarians striking enemy fighters from the sky with their minds and annihilating whole companies with a word still echo in the ears of the enemies of Man.

Whole companies? That’s alpha level psyker power. Those are rare. You have multiple alpha level psykers in a Chapter sounds a little ridiculous. Not even the Blood Ravens have that. You’re like Blood Ravens on psyker-steroids.

Together, they reached out across the fullness and breadth of space and time, twisting the fabric of reality with their efforts. They looked forward into the future, and back into the past at the same time, and at the same time as that they looked nowhere at all. As they raised their heads to tell each other of their triumph, their very eyes poured from their heads as dust, and their sanity drifted away with their eyes. Ever since, says the legend, the Librarians of the Bronze Prophets have succumbed to the same curse as they reach the apex of their power - their eyes rot away, and their minds rot with their eyes.

Aren’t there psykers monitoring the Emperor? If such a thing was detected, the retaliation would be swift and brutal. The way the Black Library has described the use of psychic energy is similar to that of throwing a pebble into a pond. The bigger the peddle, to bigger the waves. Something like that I would imagine being a freaking boulder thrown into the pawn. Sentries would be alerted people scrambled and so on. How did they avoid that detection? Was there a battle with the monitors? Were the librarians traced back to their homeworld? If they were, what was the Inquisition’s response?

Also what does the Chapter do with the crazy librarians? It wouldn’t do well for them at all to have them escape, so are the restrained, put down, something else? Has one ever escaped and sown terror somewhere?



After thoughts: Very well written, despite seeming ridiculously over-powered. Your chapter is begging to fall to the Architect of Fate.