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[LI01] Alt-Heresy IA: White Scars WIP


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#51
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I've updated the Origins section, unfortunately I can't really highlight the individual changes as they are all over the place.

A couple of things for the future;

I'm going to need help placing sidebars. My large monitor/resolution really screws over formatting (for example the opening paragraph/abstract is barely two lines). I will attempt to guess but people are going to have to tell me if they work or not.

John, are you wanting to post this when it is ready? I'm interested to see if people could tell they are authored by someone else but worried people will go "Well, eventually the numbers have started to effect the quality" :)

#52
Aurelius Rex

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On when to post, I don't know if we need to save a couple of articles (UM and WS?) as original for the Legio Imprint, or indeed if or when it is still going ahead. Six IA's and the overview would be a nice number, making it part one of three. Alternatively we could stretch it to nine IA's with the SW and Tsons the new content if he needs more time. I will contact Chris about the status of the Imprint project.

As to authorship, it would obviously go out under your name. ;)

I have had real trouble getting the mojo to write the last few days. The Space Wolf IA is coming together in my head, but not on paper - it's kicking my arse, to be honest. Not giving up on the project - just a speedbump on the road /feeling under the weather is all. I will print off the origins section and get back to you with comments ASAP, Phil.
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Alternate Heresy Index Astartes articles for the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Raven Guard, Word Bearers,
Ultramarines, White Scars, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Blood Angels available as a pdf
Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#53
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On when to post, I don't know if we need to save a couple of articles (UM and WS?) as original for the Legio Imprint, or indeed if or when it is still going ahead. Six IA's and the overview would be a nice number, making it part one of three. Alternatively we could stretch it to nine IA's with the SW and Tsons the new content if he needs more time. I will contact Chris about the status of the Imprint project.

I'm not sure about going straight to 'print', my work needs a dozen eyes to check over it before it is that good. I think the Imprints should be themed as much as possible, the linking legions found together under one roof as it would be. So, the first would be the Overview article, the Loyal Istvaan Legions (Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Raven Guard) along with the Ultramarines are a must. I don't know who else could fit in their, but with the Ultramarines I would suggest the Word Bearers and the Alpha Legion. I think those six would make a very nice group of Legions to be linked. Then I would suggest the Siege of Terra Legions, which could include the White Scars. The Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Iron Hands, along with the Night Lords, Sons of Horus and Iron Warriors. That would leave the Salamanders, White Scars, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Death Guard for the final Imprint, almost the "others". This might be a little ideal and postpone the Imprints until the correct Legions are done, but I believe you have almost been doing them in that order (well, the Ivstaan Legions anyway) and I think it will give the best final product. I'm happy for the White Scars to be one of the suprise 'bonus' material for the Imprint if you believe they are good enough, but I'm not sure replacing the Alpha Legion with them makes sense for the other Legions.

As to authorship, it would obviously go out under your name

Obviously, but I was thinking about the first post in Liber (if it doesn't go straight to print). Maybe it is just me questioning if my IA can stand up to yours and if the Frater would notice a different author due to style or quality.

I have had real trouble getting the mojo to write the last few days. The Space Wolf IA is coming together in my head, but not on paper - it's kicking my arse, to be honest. Not giving up on the project - just a speedbump on the road /feeling under the weather is all. I will print off the origins section and get back to you with comments ASAP, Phil.

There is an obvious reason for that, the Space Wolves suck :D I know what you mean when you just hit a little speed bump and you just need to overcome it. I've hit the same with Shadows Like Statues but Uni work is just a bit heavy now to be too focussed on speed bump overcoming. Thankfully, I still have mojo for IA's and the White Scars and even Wings of Death keep getting little minutes here for some work.

#54
Aurelius Rex

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On the order of the IA's, I have been working on it in the themed way you were suggesting. As much as possible I have also tried to alternate loyalists and traitors, but this has not always worked. ;) This was the rough plan...

First was the betrayed Istvaan legions:
1) World Eaters (Loyal)
2) Emperor's Children (Loyal)
3) Raven Guard (Traitor) - placed after the EC because of the Fabius Bile connection

Then the legions caught up inside Ultramar Segmentum during the Heresy:
4) Word Bearers (loyal)
5) Ultramarines (Traitors)
6) Alpha Legion (Loyal) - This is the plan - I know Matt is still working on this and there are months before it gets near being needed

The next linked group were 7) the Space Wolves, 8) Thousand Sons and 9) Dark Angels, due to the SW attacking the Tsons, linking up with the DA to head back to Terra, and being held up by the remnants of Magnus's legion. The reason for placing them before the Siege legions was that they were linked by the events that happened at the start of the Heresy, like Nikaea and the Scourging of Prospero... And I started writing the Wolves IA! :(

That rounds out as nine IA's plus the overview. Because that was a nice round nine, I had thought that the Siege of Terra legions (including your White Scars) and the others like the Death Guard (which comes last) and the Iron Hands seemed to fall into a logical second group. It gave me concern that your White Scars were not in the initial nine plan, as I didn't want to hold them up for a long time. It probably doesn't matter as much which order they are posted on the board, but if the Imprint idea goes ahead, would you mind them being in with the other siege legions in the second (of two) Imprint?

Otherwise, if we want nine legions in Imprint one, then I would be happy to bump the DA (rather than the AL) to have the Scars appear first... It would certainly be quicker to include yours than to have to write a whole new article. ;)

I don't have the theoretical order of the other nine on me, but the Siege legions were linked appropriately such as the Night Lords and Imperial Fists, IF and Sons of Horus, Blood Angels and Iron Warriors.

Sorry for the scattershot apptoach of the post... Brain not firing today. On the roadbump thing, I finally finished the first properly drafted section of the SW article last night, and started work on the second, so hopefully things should start flowing better from here on in.


Regarding the quality issues, don't do yourself down, Phil. I wouldn't have offered you the gig if I didn't think you were up to it. :) There are inevitably going to be differences in writing styles anyway, but if you don't mind me sticking my oar in with the polishing side of things to get it sounding similar, I don't mind doing it.
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Alternate Heresy Index Astartes articles for the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Raven Guard, Word Bearers,
Ultramarines, White Scars, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Blood Angels available as a pdf
Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#55
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The Thousand Son-Space Wolf-Dark Angel Connection does sound like it needs to be either at the end of Part 1 of 2 or the start of Part 2 of 3. I think the three awkward Legions are the Death Guard, Salamanders and White Scars. Whilst the latter two are invovled in the Siege of Terra, they don't actually do that much bar being their. Unlike The Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Iron Hands who all take a more active role in the matter. The Death Guard are just difficult because they don't do anything :( You don't have to stick to equal numbers, you could do a 6/5/7 split if it made more sense. You would just have to pad the middle one out with more extra content (which we will force you to do for the Imprints, like an interview with you etc :) ). I think the Imprints should be left until they work perfectly, there is no need to rush them out quick because you have 6 IA's instead of waiting until the right articles are ready.

Regarding the quality issues, don't do yourself down, Phil. I wouldn't have offered you the gig if I didn't think you were up to it. smile.gif There are inevitably going to be differences in writing styles anyway, but if you don't mind me sticking my oar in with the polishing side of things to get it sounding similar, I don't mind doing it.

;) Thanks for the boost. And as I am sure some Viking lord said once "Oar away..."

It would certainly be quicker to include yours than to have to write a whole new article.

Give me a few weeks to finish Uni and go to therapy and I might be wanting to write another ;)

#56
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I've added a different belief section, I'm not sure which I prefer the wording of.

#57
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I much prefer the new wording on the beliefs, Phil. Just to get picky, though. :D

The ideologies and practices of the White Scars have travelled a dark path much like the Legion itself. The teachings of the Legions Preachers are structured around two core pillars which all brothers live, and die, by.

There is a close repetition of 'Legion'... In fact, preachers doesn't sound quite right in this context. Who is responsible for their religious education? Probably not chaplains, admittedly. You mentioned the storm seers - do they take a secondary role?

These central beliefs are that one must attain all that is possible and that one must live to their body’s fullest capabilities. If an Imperial Preacher taught these words to his flock they would be virtues of life, creeds that would surely send a soul to the table of The Emperor, but the twisted minds of the White Scars have belittled these tenants to nothing more than greed and ecstasy.

In a religious context the word is 'tenets'. Other than that it is a really good line!

They want for all that is not theirs and yearn for what they have not.

Not as sure about this line though... possibly because the first and second parts seem to replicate one another. I like the intent, though. Could the intention of the second part be something along the lines that they lose interest in what they have and it soon pales and fails to satisfy them - that the grass is always greener, or the gold is always shinier when it belongs to someone else?
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Alternate Heresy Index Astartes articles for the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Raven Guard, Word Bearers,
Ultramarines, White Scars, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Blood Angels available as a pdf
Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#58
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I'll look into those things, the grass is greener sounds good. Any thoughts on the re-worded origins?

#59
Aurelius Rex

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Just a quick word on the intro paragraph, Phil. I am fine with the word count - the main thing is that you get the flavour of the legion across and this seems to do it. Better short than needlessly waffling for the sake of it.

Though a trusted friend to the Warmaster, it was Jaghatai’s fate to fall to the clutches of Slaanesh. The Dark Lord of Ecstasy played to the desires of the White Scars; their greed for all that glitters, their want for all that is not theirs.

Perhaps 'Jaghatai Khan's fate' - it seems slightly too informal just to use his first name in this context. :D

The roar of engines was once the terrifying war cry of one of The Emperor’s legions now declares the death of an Imperial world for few can withstand the butchery of the White Scars; favoured of the Dark Prince.


The dirts part of the sentence doesn't seem to scan properly. Perhaps:
'The roar of engines, once the terrifying war cry of one of The Emperor’s legions, now declares the death of Imperial worlds, for few can withstand the butchery of the White Scars; favoured of the Dark Prince.'

... Or somesuch.

John.
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Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#60
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Okay, today will have the last push to get it complete before midnight :lol:

Everything is okay, I need to reread for grammar/spelling mistakes

I need to add a couple more sidebars (I'm thinking Red Highway Massacre for one), then see where some details could be explained further via sidebars.

I believe thats it.

John, what do you want me to do with this when I'm done? Do you want to have a read through before it goes to Liber, is it going to Liber, will Batman every find his lost biscuits?

#61
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I am printing it off now, Phil. If you are going to do proof reading then I will hold off on the typos and concentrate on the meat of the article. I usually do four proofreading passes to cut out all that I can - not just catching typos but also seeing if it scans, ideas that I have missed or should be somewhere else etc.

Feedback later.
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Ultramarines, White Scars, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Blood Angels available as a pdf
Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#62
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I'll have a read through as well. Points edited into this post as they come.

their greed for all that glitters, their want for all that is not theirs

Putting an 'and' in the middle of this might work slightly better, otherwise to me the sentence just seems unfinished, like there should be another desire listed.

The roar of engines, once the terrifying war cry of one of The Emperor’s legions, now declares the death of Imperial worlds, for few can withstand the butchery of the White Scars; favoured of the Dark Prince.

This sentence could be reworked to read a bit easier and grandly. ie.

"While once the roar of the 5th Legion's engines declared the arrival of Imperial vengeance, they now herald the coming of anarchy and destruction at the hands of the Dark Prince's favoured legion."

Still could probably do a little better but you get the idea. Just "death of Imperial worlds" sounds a little weak in the current version.

These texts tell about a time before the Imperium of Man had welcomed Mundus Planus into its bosom, when the people called their home Chogoris.

Think you could use a better phrase instead of the underlined section.

...paint a picture of an earth covered with soaring mountains....

Earth? Would planet be better?

Around these waterways, vast cities had sprouted under the command of the Palatine.

When you say waterways, I imagine rivers, creeks and such things rather than seas.

Though they had achieved little beyond basic black powder technology, these metropolises were fruitful and productive.

Again, I think some better phrasing could be used here. Ie. "these metropolises were havens of luxury and learning."

Opposed to these high walls lay the spartan land of the Empty Quarter, whose barrenness stretched as far as the eye could see.

Barrenness is a little wierd here, as the plains are covered in grass. Maybe it's just me but when I see barrenness, I think more of a desert.

The tribesmen weren’t without fear themselves, many of their fables telling of the dreaded Talskar tribe and their Khan.

Just wondering how they reacted to the Khan's Legion arriving and everything. Did Jagahatai disappear from his old clan with no fanfare etc.? Did the legends used to tell of how he stalked the land still etc?

A couple of times you use "Fifth Legion" but later on you use "fifth legion". I'll get specific places later.

Ong heeded to the words of his son, approaching many tribes under banners of peace. Many laughed him out of their encampments, some even going as far to call the Talskar out to battle, believing their Khan to be weak. When Ong could not be defeated by brute force, more devious tactics were implemented against him. Raiders of the Kurayed tribe ambushed the Khan of the Talskar but their courage failed as father and son fought back-to-back even though all those who had rode with them that day had fallen. Against the odds, eased by the smooth tongue of Jaghatai, a fledging alliance grew, promoting unity across the plains. As the united tribes prospered, gaining from each other’s strengths more flocked to the banner. Jaghatai was held as a champion of the times, holding true to the ideals and virtues of his teachings. Even as this young nation bloomed to life, fate would play heavily against it.

This paragraph seems a little choppy to me and doesn't flow that well in terms of what happens.

Coming across three horsemen, their garb identifying them as Palatine cavalry, attempting to ravish a young tribes-woman, Jaghatai’s code of honour spurred him into action. The years of luxury had not dimmed the skills of the young warrior, Jaghatai taking the heads of two and allowing the third to tell his people not to use the Empty Quarter as a plaything. Returning to his tribe, Jaghatai was not to know that he had damned himself, his father and his people that day, for one of the men he had killed had been a favoured son of the Palatine and soon an army stood on the plains craving for revenge.

This is the first time you mention luxury. Maybe it needs mentioning in the previous paragraph? Also, not sure on the use of plaything. Perhaps it should refer to "the tribesman of the Empty Quarter" rather than "the Empty Quarter".

We shared our food, our gers and our horses; we gave and ask for nothing in return. I was wrong.

"Asked"?

Outraged by their treachery, Jaghatai swore that the Empty Quarter would die by his sword.

Should it be "the tribes of the Empty Quarter"? Other it sounds a little odd saying a place will die by his sword ;) Especially since it isn't really a united country.

Finding pleasure in the screams of pain that surrounded them, they elongated the torture of their enemies. Survivors of an assault were allowed to escape, only to be chased down at the glee of Jaghatai’s men. Striking from all sides, only to retreat to make sure their enemy feared their return. The legends of the Aŭdac took form from these horrors and by taking their rights of conquest in armour, horses and women, the Talskar only grew in strength. Not even a united force, like the one Jaghatai had dreamt of himself, could withstand their fury, their warlord Temüjin slain by the Nightmares own hand.

Perhaps mention Jaghatai ordering his men to make the tribespeople feel their own pain a thousandfold in vengeance. And then they start taking pleasure in it. A bit more of a natural progression to me. Apostrophe for Nightmare's

A much greater foe was needed to halt the terror that was the Talskar, the coming of the Imperium of Man. The Emperor Himself is said to have walked upon the soil of the Empty Quarter, after the Palatine had offered his allegiance. Sensing one of His sons, the Emperor wandered the lands in search for one of humanities greatest heroes.

The first sentence doesn't really work I think. Humanities=humanity's.

Upon hearing the story of His so called son, The Emperor flew into a rage, distraught by how low one of His offspring had fallen. Though it pained Him to do so, He smote His son like only a father could. “You have destroyed were you could have conquered; you have terrorised those you could have ruled. You are no son of mine.” He knew the words were a lie; for all that Jaghatai was not he was of His blood. Forced to embrace this ghoul, the Emperor sung to the urges of the Khan; the treasures of the Golden Palace, the strength of Imperial Arms, the victories that would be his.

The actions of the Emperor seem a little contradictory.

#63
Aurelius Rex

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Looks like Matt has raised the bar for feedback. The intro paragraph suggestion sounds really good. :) A lot of the points I will have here on the origins will echo what he has already covered. Apologies for the brevity of the responses, Phil.

Origins
The inhabitants of Mundus Planus know nothing about the past of their world, the truth hidden deep in ancient lore secretly locked away.

The bolded section seems weak - especially the secretly. The Word Bearer norm-IA mentions a couple of sources about first contact with the primarchs: the Speculum Historiale - the exhaustive history of the great crusade by Carpinius, and strangely the Apocrypha of Skaros, about Lorgar first meeting The Emperor. It also mentions texts being sealed away in the Library Sanctus on Terra. Some selected mentions might add some gravitas to the opening of this section.

The few images that have survived, along with the verses of word, paint a picture of an earth covered with soaring mountains, vast green plains, and deep turquoise seas.

Bolded section could be re-worded.

Around these waterways, vast cities had sprouted under the command of the Palatine.

Echo Matt's response. Perhaps 'around the coasts' or somesuch? You may need to briefly explain who / what the Palantine is / was. It was not initially clear if they were a people / society, or if the Palantine was their leader. I know it becomes contextually clearer later, but perhaps a half-line?

Scattered across these grass plains were tribes of horsemen; nomads whose savagery and lust for battle was the terror of the civilised.

The sentence seems to end strangely. ...'civilised city-dwellers'? There was no actual conflict between the tribes and the Palantine at this point, right? Also, were the Palantine actually civilised? Perhaps a semantic point... British colonial types would go off and attack and plunder tribes and act distinctively un-civilised, but they would see themselves bringing civilisation to the savages. I am probably over-thinking this again. :)

The tribesmen weren’t without fear themselves, many of their fables telling of the dreaded Talskar tribe and their Khan, or leader. Though he was called many names, such as Aŭdac, Ciĥttera and Mephaeta, amongst his own he was Jaghatai, the great warrior. His legend began when Ong, Khan of the Talskar, happened upon a small child wandering lost across the plains.

Could explain that Khan means leader.
What is the relevance of the other alternate names? Is it a reference to the Ghengis Khan research you did? I am not certain it adds that much beyond colour, and doesn't seem to tie in to anything later.
The third sentence tripped me up as you are at first talking about Jaghatai, Khan of the Talskars, and then dip back into talking about Ong, Khan of the Talskars. I know what you mean, but it felt jarring. Is there a better way to word it?

Teaching him the arts of much valued by their society, Jaghatai became a master of the bow, the sword and the horse.


Other than the stray 'of', this is a great line. :)

His tactical wisdom and foresight earned him the respect of many of his father’s bondsmen, though many mocked him for his preaching of a united tribe of the plains.

Simple word replication.

Ong heeded to the words of his son, approaching many tribes under banners of peace.

How about: 'Sensing the power and potential of his son, Ong heeded the young Jaghatai's words, approaching...'


That is the first A4 page of notes, Phil. More later, but I am really liking how this is coming together. :)
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Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#64
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I've just finished my degree today (woot), so I'll be getting onto finishing this ASAP. Some quick questions though on grammar, mainly capital letters which confuse me;

Is it Legion or legion? Fifth or fifth (when referring to the Legion)...

#65
Aurelius Rex

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Congratulations on completing the degree, Phil! :D What do you plan on doing next? Further degrees, which may be even more important at the moment with the recession, or leaping into the world of work?

As to capitalisation, mine is a bit wobbly at times too, but I would go on the same basis as is used for titles, so you could say 'I spoke to the sergeant yesterday' has no capitalisation, but 'I spoke to Sergeant Rhadamanthys yeaterday' would have one.

On that basis, if you are just talking about 'the legion' then no caps, but 'the Fifth Legion' would be capitalised.

Does that sound right, Matt?
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Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#66
Sigismund Himself

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Sounds fine to me, but I'm not the most reliable when it comes to English technicalities :P

Congrats on the degree Phil, chemistry wasn't it?

I'll try to give feedback on the rest of the article tonight, if I don't get too distracted by the rugby match. I'll edit it into this post.

++Edit++ Going over the Ultramarines took longer than I thought it would and the rugby match turned out to be rather interesting :) I've started on the feedback, but I'll hold it back until it's a bit more complete.

#67
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Congratulations on completing the degree, Phil! thumbsup.gif What do you plan on doing next? Further degrees, which may be even more important at the moment with the recession, or leaping into the world of work?

Congrats on the degree Phil, chemistry wasn't it?

It was in Biochemistry. I was hoping to do a PhD, but I've got to wait on what degree classification I got before I can really secure what I want to do. That being said, I am moving in with Laura, my girlfriend, down around the Keele area so I'll be all growing up :)

As for the White Scars, I'll get on the edits ASAP.

#68
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Personally, I've found the tendency of the Alt. Heresy articles to just appear in the Librarium a little questionable. Liber's there for a reason - why would you not want to make use of it?

It's also likely hurting the readership.

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#69
Aurelius Rex

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I take it that this is directed primarily at me. ;) I see what you mean, but there are lots of different ways and styles for developing an IA article. Personally I line to work on it slowly and quietly, fleshing out things either on my own, or with a small group of people whose opinion I trust before posting on Liber Astartes for more feedback. Others start from nothing on Liber - often literally nothing, asking others to effectively write their article and come up with the ideas! - and build from there. There isn't anything sinister about it just appearing - simply personal preference, and the fact that some of the things included in one IA pay off in later linked ones, which is a problem not found in one-off IA development. I also wanted to have he IA's developed here as it opened the process up to the mods and also the Lexi's (and AD's if there are any left), though in practice it has been only Phil, Sig, Ferrus Manus, Sanctus and you who have commented, Oct... I got more varied feeback when I posted the earlier articles in the mods only area before, but then other than this project this part of the forum has become a backwater, I am sad to say. ;)

I have considered doing a 'from nothing' (alt-)IA on the board just to see how it goes, though. It would be interesting to see how the process would differ. The thing that stopped me doing this with the SW article, or intending to with the forthcoming Tsons or DA ones is the need to keep back a batch of previously unseen articles to bundle in with the first six or so in SCC's Legio Imprint idea... though worryingly Chris has not replied to my recent PM request about this or been on the board in over a fortnight. :)

Soooo... I would say it is down to preference, and that I will certainly be thinking of doing one on Liber as an experiment to see how it goes in the future.

+++Edit:

I was hoping to do a PhD

Hehe, you realise that people would not stop calling you 'Dr Phil' after the US TV shrink!*

Oh, and I will be putting up the feedback on the Great Crusade section later this evening. It is jumping ahead, I know, but I left my notes on the earlier section on the other side of Edinburgh, and it will be a few days before I get back to collect them. I will also send the IA:UM and WB word docs over to you shortly.




* Or whatever it is he does... I only know him via references to him on other shows and movies.
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Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#70
Ferrata

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Personally, I've found the tendency of the Alt. Heresy articles to just appear in the Librarium a little questionable. Liber's there for a reason - why would you not want to make use of it?

I'm not sure if I or John has incorrectly understood this, but I believed you were suggesting that the Alt-H articles are posted directly into the Librarium, which they are not. John has always posted the IA in Liber before hand but just as a 'finished' article, although he does respond to the feedback. If John is correct in his reading, then I agree with him. This project requires the 'behind closed doors' approach as can be seen with the numerous posts in Liber offering suggestions on what they think a certain legion should be like. As this is all inter-connected it can't have the same level as user-input changing major things about each legion as a normal chapter would.

--

Hehe, you realise that people would not stop calling you 'Dr Phil' after the US TV shrink!*

I didn't think of that :)

#71
Octavulg

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OK...I responded to a post from Ferrata asking whether he should just post straight to Liber or what. That post is now gone. Either I am very, very tired, or somebody's been making pointless use of their moderatorial powers.

That said:

I take it that this is directed primarily at me. msn-wink.gif


No more than the simple fact that you're the primary author/the one who's done all the submissions so far.

I see what you mean, but there are lots of different ways and styles for developing an IA article. Personally I line to work on it slowly and quietly, fleshing out things either on my own, or with a small group of people whose opinion I trust before posting on Liber Astartes for more feedback. Others start from nothing on Liber - often literally nothing, asking others to effectively write their article and come up with the ideas! - and build from there. There isn't anything sinister about it just appearing - simply personal preference, and the fact that some of the things included in one IA pay off in later linked ones, which is a problem not found in one-off IA development.


Ah, I think you've misunderstood me a little. I'm not saying you should start in Liber and finish in Liber, more that you should stop there briefly before punting it to the Librarium. I think you'd see an increase in readership and you'd get far more eyes checking it for errors/unclear points. Doing it the other way feels so...elitist.

That said, with the exception of the Raven Guard, you did actually do this, so that's fine. :D I missed the first two postings.

I have considered doing a 'from nothing' (alt-)IA on the board just to see how it goes, though. It would be interesting to see how the process would differ. The thing that stopped me doing this with the SW article, or intending to with the forthcoming Tsons or DA ones is the need to keep back a batch of previously unseen articles to bundle in with the first six or so in SCC's Legio Imprint idea... though worryingly Chris has not replied to my recent PM request about this or been on the board in over a fortnight. unsure.gif


SCC's lack of appearance is getting downright worrying and more than a little unhelpful.

* * *

John has always posted the IA in Liber before hand but just as a 'finished' article, although he does respond to the feedback.


I missed the first two, evidently. Though I don't see the Raven Guard.

If John is correct in his reading, then I agree with him. This project requires the 'behind closed doors' approach as can be seen with the numerous posts in Liber offering suggestions on what they think a certain legion should be like. As this is all inter-connected it can't have the same level as user-input changing major things about each legion as a normal chapter would.


Actually, posting the structure for how it would work for critique and then building IAs to a revised structure might. But I agree - it's simply not feasible to do inter-linked IAs in such a fashion, with the possible exception of the whole project beginning in such a fashion.

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#72
Ferrata

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Ah, you were responding to this line "John, what do you want me to do with this when I'm done? Do you want to have a read through before it goes to Liber, is it going to Liber, will Batman every find his lost biscuits?". You misunderstood what I meant by 'not going in Liber'. John has attempting to contact Chris about Legio Imprints and had wanted to keep one or two IAs per Imprint back from the public eye before the release to make it worth downloading. If it was only for the funky format and having something on your computer, the downloads would be okay but if there was some never seen before IAs then the downloads would be up. We were not intending to by-pass Liber to go the Librarium but instead by-pass Liber to go into an Imprint :D

++ Edit ++

Just checked, the Raven Guard IA was posted way back in February

Edited by Ferrata, 07 June 2009 - 10:08 PM.


#73
Aurelius Rex

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The Great Crusade
As with all things in his life, Jaghatai took to commanding his legion with ease. Training them on the plains of Chogoris, he adapted to the bike over the horse with the skill only a son of The Emperor could. Unwilling to trust His new found son with an expedition of his own, the White Scars were enlisted to aid others. Serving alongside Dorn, Guilliman and Magnus, the Scars became infamous for being reckless allies; abandoning their duties to charge the flanks of the enemy, chasing those who fled and bathing in the agony of the foe. It was whilst fighting alongside the Luna Wolves that Jaghatai found purpose. Horus, angered by the needless losses his Legion had took taken / suffered / sustained? because of Jaghatai’s actions, struck his younger brother, telling the wild Primarch to act like a commander and not a dog. Instead of lashing back, Jaghatai embraced his brother, saying he had finally met a man he could respect.

A couple of suggestions on wording in red.

The White Scars and their Primarch were reborn, becoming a respected ally and trusted friend of Horus. Indeed, the Legion became popular amongst expeditions of the Great Crusade, their swift strikes timed beautifully to crush the enemy. When The Emperor decreed that Jaghatai would lead his own expedition, twelve of his brothers Legions sent representatives to congratulate him, three of them personally attending the great feast. Though sad to be leaving the comfort of those he held dear, Jaghatai’s face was alight with pride as his father bestowed this honour upon him.

A word replication, but I am not sure that it can be got around. :D
I really like the plot of Horus turning him around and giving Jaghatai the tough love The Emperor should have doled out! ;) However, I think that what happened needs to be sold and explained better / in more depth, and also explain what Khan said to turn his brothers back towards the path of being responsible.

Many new worlds fell to the war machine of the White Scars, so swift were their actions that the Imperium failed in documenting many. The battle honours for the legion did little to represent the number of victories that the Scars claimed. From the Hive World of Kerait to the jungles of Olkhun, it seemed where ever wherever the fifth legion took to battle, glory and triumph stood with them. Jaghatai personally headed many of the battles himself, his modified jet bike streaming across a cushion of hot air, his huge shoulders thrusting his power lance deep before assaulting the enemy with his sword. Not only did his men see the honour of the man, but those who he defeated would gratefully serve the Khan of the Imperium.

And caps on Fifth Legion?
The cushion of hot air section of the sentence somehow feels off, or unnecessary / detracting. Possibly it is the hot air reference that makes me think of pompous windbags... Probably my problem, but it trips me up. :)

For a second time when his life looked fruitful and promising, Jaghatai was struck down. The isolation from his brothers who he had begun to trust, love and depend upon troubled the Primarch deeply. He had only once felt loneliness like this before, during the battle against the Palatine. Without council from those who he respected, such as Horus and Mortarion, he took the responsibility of each and every death, either brother, ally or foe, as his own personal sin. Constantly confined to his war room, he spent sleepless nights stalking over tactical maps, over-viewing the great wide- or far-reaching arms of his expedition. He became distant from the warfront, instead swamped by petitions for his presence, local governors seeking aid in petty disputes or to honour them by accepting invitations for social gatherings. For a man born under the night stars with blood on his hands, the imprisonment of the diplomatic world was a grinding axe worse than death. Alone, with no-one to turn to for conversation without sly meanings, he attempted to find tranquillity in this sea of chaos that was becoming his life, learning to appreciate the many great artefacts which had come to adorn his chambers. Tributes, bribes, gifts, each item was tainted by hidden meanings, underhand favours and silent wants.

How about a slight re-arrangement... 'He had felt loneliness like this only once before, during the battle...'?
Word replication on 'over', and in any case I would ironically also suggest replacing the second one with another replication - 'viewing and reviewing'.

These years were not kind to the wild Primarch, he became less the warlord and more the bureaucrat, separated from the rush of battle and the emptiness of the plains. His only connections to the frontline were the few times he was able to abandon his quarters and feast in the lust of war. Whilst Jaghatai was shown the heroic efforts of his forces to inflict as little collateral damage as possible, his men plundered armouries, reliquaries and treasuries seeking the perfect gift for their Lord. Those who brought him the most precious items were heavily favoured, and soon Jaghatai was surrounded by sycophants instead of leaders, minions not heroes. As he listened to their tales of valour, honour and bravery, warzones were scavenged by blade and blood in the most brutal of ways to satisfy his wants. The tide of victories earned by Jaghatai’s expedition slowed to a trickle, the poor tactical acumen of the Khans inflicting losses of brothers to more focussed on pillaging than fighting.

The first bolded section seemed to need tightening, somehow. I take it that Jaghatai was lied to by his commanders about how they were acting, correct? If so, this would be important to raise, and might be interesting to emphasise later on in the legion's character if it is the case, or continues to be the case. Similarly, I love the last line, but does it continue later, in which it would be a fascinating aspect to cover in the legion later. ;)
'Inflicting losses' doesn't seem to fit well in the flow of the sentence. Do you mean that they lost a lot of their own men?

The item which gained the lion’s share of the Khan’s pride was the twin pair of gauntlets named Mamonas and Avauras, who had been bestowed to him by the High Priest of Ikesentii. (Much more subtle! :P ) The jewel incrusted gages were of little combat use, their protection compromised by the golden weaving and the delicately placed stones, but the Great Khan had a decreasing need for weapons of war, instead his vanity took dominance. It is said that he became bound to them, unwilling to leave their presence, even as going as far as to declare that ‘only the might of a son of The Emperor was equal to their beauty and magnificence’.

The last quote is a little long, which stops it being catchy - could removing the underlined words tighten it up?


Edit - I obviously totally misunderstood your intention, Oct, as I have dilligently and actively posted all of these - with perhaps the exception of the original overview because it isn't really an IA, but that always gets mentioned and linked to, if only in the signature - as a former Liber mod I continue to value the place and want to get their input.
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Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn

#74
Octavulg

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Army rules'd seem an obvious thing to work up, if folk were so inclined. They were one of the mildly neat parts of the original IA articles, after all.

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#75
Aurelius Rex

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I have left out army rules because creating and playtesting a balanced army isn't something I could do properly. I don't even have time to paint up one of each, but I would love to try it. :D

I take your point, but I doubt anyone would actually paint up an army of these guys to play with, so it seems a waste of effort I would rather put into something I can do better, like writing the background. :lol: If people want to do this, possibly with apocalypse rules where balance and force structure is not an issue, then it should be simple enough to construct a characterful army by reading the IA and paying close attention to the organisation and combat doctrine sections.

Edit - Urgh! With all the feedback posting I forgot to send the word docs, Phil. I will have to send them tomorrow evening when I get back to the computer where they are stored. Oh, and on the SW, I don't have a fancy word doc yet - I just cut and paste it roughly into word when I want to work on it... that is probably the easiest thing for you to do as well.
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Alternate Heresy Index Astartes articles for the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Raven Guard, Word Bearers,
Ultramarines, White Scars, Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Blood Angels available as a pdf
Click here for the Legio Imprint download thread
Iron Warriors +++ Iron Hands +++ Alpha Legion +++ Dark Angels

Index Astartes: Scions of Dorn