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ARMY LIST CRITQUE


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8 replies to this topic

#1
Darkapostle222

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Well...I think that i've finally put together my basic army list for tournaments, campaigns and such.....

HQ: Chaos Lord

Terminator Armor, Mark of Khorne, Pair of Lightning Claws Cost: 140

Elites: Chaos Terminators

Terminator Champion, Power Fist, combi weapon, Reaper Autocannon, Chainfist Cost: 215

Elites: Possessed Chaos Space Marines

Aspiring Champion Cost: 140

Troops: Chaos Space Marines

Aspiring Champion (Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol), Icon(Chaos Glory), Plasma gun, Heavy Bolter Cost: 200

Troops: Chaos Rhino

Twin-linked Bolter, Havoc Launcher

Cost: 55

Troops: Chaos Space Marines

Aspiring Champion, Meltagun Cost: 130

Troops: Khorne Bezerkers

Skull Champion (Plasma Pistol) Cost: 177

Heavy Support: Havocs

Aspiring Champion, Power Weapon, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Autocannon

Cost: 170

Heavy Support: Predator

Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Extra Armor, Havoc Launcher Cost: 165

Fast Attack: Chaos Bikers

Biker Champion (Power Weapon, Meltabombs) Plasma gun Cost: 182

TOTAL: 1574

Please comment and tell me what i should change.....


The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time-Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers Legion

Index Astartes: Scions of Khorne

#2
Brother Nihm

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Moving this to the Army List Forum.
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My Blog | My Gallery | Call of Chaos: IV, V

#3
the jeske

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well am shoting at the dark here as I dont see the squads size . but from the looks of it list is bad.

Troops: Khorne Bezerkers

Skull Champion (Plasma Pistol) Cost: 177

a plasma that can kill him and not a power weapon or fist for a unit that is all about hth , I aks why would you do that . also seems kind of a small . What is it 5/6 man right?

Heavy Support: Predator

Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, Extra Armor, Havoc Launcher Cost: 165

static . gets stuned does nothing . sponsons work against different targets then the main weapon. It costs 165pts when your army is build around 5 man squads.

Fast Attack: Chaos Bikers

Biker Champion (Power Weapon, Meltabombs) Plasma gun Cost: 182

ok .. why ? [also why does their champion get a power weapon and the zerker one doesnt] a single melta bomb wont stop tanks , a single plasma gun wont stop meq or MC . its small and it has to get close[and faster then the rest of your army ] to work best ,so it will die unsupported in hth .

Heavy Support: Havocs

Aspiring Champion, Power Weapon, Lascannon, Missile Launcher, Autocannon

you put an asp champion with a power weapon in havocks and you dont even make them 4 specials ones with icon of khorn , but static ones[and again ... the zerker champ is runing around without a weapon ???] . you put 3 different weapons so it cant counter any target [save for low AV units ] real good. + its static and I think its either 5 or 6 man what is kind of a slow you have 4 models with bough gear in that unit .

Troops: Chaos Space Marines

Aspiring Champion, Meltagun Cost: 130

ok I understand that this is the objective camper . But why does it have a naked asp champion[or an asp champion at all] ? and why does it have a 12" range gun when its going to sit on an objective [and if something get in to 12" range those 5 guys are dead with or without a single melta gun].


Troops: Chaos Space Marines

Aspiring Champion (Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol), Icon(Chaos Glory), Plasma gun, Heavy Bolter Cost: 200

Troops: Chaos Rhino

Twin-linked Bolter, Havoc Launcher

the second csm unit in your army . only that is 10 man strong , only with rhino . where ever it goes it goes with the support of 3[am not sure here] bikers ... it will end up in hth and you give them an asp champion with a power weapon [so in case they run up in to a walker or MC, they can lose more easilly] and a plasma pistol [nothing like a nice assault weapon that can kill your power weapon armed asp champion] and aplasma gun +hvy bolter[well as your moving and assaulting a lot with this unit , nothing helps more then a nice rapid fire and hvy weapon].

Elites: Possessed Chaos Space Marines

Aspiring Champion Cost: 140

well normally if one doesnt want the best build there is one can put one , maybe two[in bigger pts games] weaker units in to an army . but thats considering the rest of the army is build good and yours isnt . nothing thinking about the rest of your army for a second , this unit is too small for a hth and too slow [no rhino no LR] and asp champions are not worth the cost it only gives +1A .

Elites: Chaos Terminators

Terminator Champion, Power Fist, combi weapon, Reaper Autocannon, Chainfist Cost: 215

reapers are overcosted for the same price you can buy 5 combi weapons and do more dmg on any unit in the game . you dont need a fist and a chain fist in the same unit of termis . generally for chaos assault termis its 1 fist for each full 3 terminators [also if you want extra attacks buy the IoK and not champions] . also foot slogging terminators or deep striking them to do hth is a very bad idea .
for the 215 pts you spent on this unit I would buy 2x3 terminators all with combis it works better.

HQ: Chaos Lord

Terminator Armor, Mark of Khorne, Pair of Lightning Claws Cost: 140

wings make him faster . Good thing you didnt buy him a demon weapon.



Generally speaking , I hope you didnt buy/glue this army yet , because its really really weak . and am not talking here about tournaments , its too weak for normal friendlly games . you have small troops , overinvested non scoring units tons of wasted pts and no reall anti tank or moblity to speak of . list desinger job.... a bad one.

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#4
Zhukov

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Well its always nicer to hear things from more people so: I agree with Jeske.

Edited by Zhukov, 18 March 2009 - 09:02 AM.

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#5
harvarn

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hey Darkapostle222,

but it looks like the army is neither here nor there. In short the army can do Everything, but cant do anything... meaning it is so watered down they cant excel in anything...

Berserkers
you dont give a plasma pistol and not a power weapon to your champion cause... for one he might die to the gun not from the enemy... and also I5, S5, WS5, AND 5 attacks from a champion using a power weapon will slice 3-4 marines on average... berserkers are not for shooting but for killing... if khorne sees this Khârn will chop yer head fr this...

Termies,
Your termies also suffer from the neither here nor there... problem, you got to know what you want to do with them, if you want to deepstrike and blow something up more combi weapons, if its for fire support you can drop the combi weapon and put reapers and (twinlink)bolters... or for anti personel then heavy flamer and combi weapons

Havocs
Also neither here nor there... why spend on a champion knowing if it gets charge they will die regardless of having a power weapon or not... ALSO 3 different weapon combinations? either 4 missiles, 4 lascannons, 4 autocannons, or 4 hbt if you want to mix 2 missiles and 2 autocannons or 2 missiles and 2 lascannons... Or light anti tank anti personnel then 2hbt, 2 auto cannons.... in your combination shooting will be a mess S9,8,7? good luck downing a tank with those.

Predator
You dont mix weapons on units, for that "if i get hit by a tank i got a TW lascannon, if i get charge by troops a hbt..." designate it, like, twin link lascannon turret, and lascannon sponsons thats 3 shots! with one twin link! even a land raider will fear that pred.

or AP predators autocannon, heavy bolters, havoc launchers - thats 2 S7 6 S5 and 1 Twin link S5 blast template...

in your settings if a tank comes by its 1 S9 twin link shot... or vs marines 1 S9 twin link shot and 6 hbt shots... frying an IG or a gaunt with a lascannon is a waste of time.

SPEED issue
your force does not have the range to make them able to support one another, your bikes will die first, then your rhino, then your walking troops eg. khorne berzerkers, possessed and csm, finally the static units like havoc squad. they should be able to move around the same speed range to allow your units to work in synergy. What was your plan with the bikes? support? taking out transport? or anti infantry? or T6 Turbo to claim objectives?

Assault or Shooty short/mid/long?
csm is a small army where mistakes will land u a defeat. If the army is design for assault they should be more assault base with more rhinos for mobility... and preds to support the advance...

or maybe shooty base?
then have max 1 assault base troop for support. Rest should be either design to maximize their fire power between short range 6-12" or medium fire power builds 12" to 36" and long 36" to 48" armies that are design for this range distances and not mix of all three will work extremely well... your play style does define which style you use... if you like head on rushes then get them assault base with short range fire support... or sit back and blow things up u need to spend more pts on the right heavies to make it work for you and support units like DP with lash to lash enemies to the open and let your oblits fry them with plasma cannon shots etc...

there are very good post on guides on how to build a csm army.

#6
JamesI

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Check your costs too. There's no way your Marine unit with aspiring champion, power weapon, plasma pistol, plasmagun, heavy bolter and icon costs only 200.

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#7
Darkapostle222

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Okay....I've taken into account what all the comments have said, and have revised much of my list....

Please look and comment!

HQ: Chaos Lord

Terminator Armor, Mark of Khorne, Pair of Lightning Claws Cost: 140

Elites: Chaos Terminators Total Models: 5

Terminator Champion, Power Fist, combi weapon, Reaper Autocannon, Chainfist Cost: 215

Elites: Possessed Chaos Space Marines

Total Models: 5

Aspiring Champion Cost: 140

Troops: Chaos Space Marines Total Models: 7

Aspiring Champion (Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol), Icon(Chaos Glory), Plasma gun Cost: 175

Troops: Chaos Rhino

Twin-linked Bolter, Havoc Launcher

Cost: 55

Troops: Chaos Space Marines Total Models: 6

Aspiring Champion (Power Sword), Meltagun Cost: 130

Troops: Khorne Bezerkers Total Models: 9

Skull Champion (Power Sword), Plasma Pistol Cost: 234

Heavy Support: Havocs Total Models: 7

Aspiring Champion, 3x Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter

Cost: 225

Heavy Support: Predator

Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Extra Armor, Havoc Launcher Cost: 195

Fast Attack: Raptors Total Models: 8

Champion (Power Weapon), Icon of Khorne, Melta, Flamer Cost: 245

TOTAL: 1754


The difference between Gods and Daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time-Lorgar, Primarch of the Word Bearers Legion

Index Astartes: Scions of Khorne

#8
PlagueWarriorOfDeath

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HQ: Chaos Lord
Terminator Armor, Mark of Khorne, Pair of Lightning Claws Cost: 140


This is alright, however without a Land Raider he is either foot slogging or Deep Striking, both of wich are BAD for HTH anything. Deep Strike keeps them out of the fight until at least turn two and then gives them the chance to die outright. foot Slogging is even worse because it means they won't get into hth... ever. Like Jeske said give him wings and put him with the Raptors.

Elites: Chaos Terminators Total Models: 5
Terminator Champion, Power Fist, combi weapon, Reaper Autocannon, Chainfist Cost: 215

This unit is all over the place still. You don't have a transport for them so they aren't going to get much hth, the champion is unnessessary, the power fist and the Chainfist is too much, lose one of them. Unless the Combi is a Plasma then it and the Reaper clash as they go against each other for range. Choose whether or not they are going to be long ranged support or mid ranged support. Unless you get them a raider they won't do much good in a hth setup.

Elites: Possessed Chaos Space Marines
Total Models: 5
Aspiring Champion Cost: 140

I havn't played possessed so I can't say based on experience, though I don't hear a lot of good about them. There are some things that are wrong with this squad though. first, the aspiring champion isn't worth it, 15 points for +1 attack? No thanks I'd rather another possessed. Secondly it's too small. 5 Men hth units die really fast unless they are terminators. Thirdly, they have no transport. Like the rest of your army they will get shot down long before you even reach the enemy.

Troops: Chaos Space Marines Total Models: 7
Aspiring Champion (Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol), Icon(Chaos Glory), Plasma gun Cost: 175
Troops: Chaos Rhino
Twin-linked Bolter, Havoc Launcher

This squad is too mixed up. You need focus if you are even going to make your opponent work to beat you. The CC Champ and the plasma clash, the squad is either going to be covering or they are going to be attacking. Take your pick. Plus the squad is too small, it's better than 5 man but since this squad seems to be a dedicated objective camper, lose the champ, up it to 10 men and grab another special weapon.
The rhino is illegal. You can only have on extra pintle mounted weapon and you are paying for two, meaning you have 3 pintle mounted weapons.

Troops: Chaos Space Marines Total Models: 6
Aspiring Champion (Power Sword), Meltagun

Again, this squad is too small. If it is going up into close combat then it will need more men. Up it to 10, grab another melta and put a fist on the champion.
Also, I don't know for certain where that rhino is going, but this squad should get it instead of the plasma. It will need it more as it has no long ranged capabilities.

Troops: Khorne Bezerkers Total Models: 9
Skull Champion (Power Sword), Plasma Pistol

Drop the PP, it's not worth 15 point to get one shot that may well kill one of your hth specialists. This unit needs a rhino or it will die before it knows what hit it.

Heavy Support: Havocs Total Models: 7
Aspiring Champion, 3x Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter

Drop the champion, you don't need him as this will be the last unit that should get combat, why pay for an extra attack that you won't ever use? Champions are taken to gain access to hth weapons, the extra attack is a bonus. You're still splitting the weapons, either take four ML or a combination of 4 anti-tank weapons (Las and missles) since you have no other tank hunting besides the pred which will die quickly being one of two tanks on the table.

Heavy Support: Predator
Lascannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Extra Armor, Havoc Launcher

you don't need the havoc launcher as it will do nothing against what this thing is shooting at. Drop it. The extra armour is pretty much useless, too much points for what it will do, which is just about nothing.

Fast Attack: Raptors Total Models: 8
[font="Times New Roman"]Champion (Power Weapon), Icon of Khorne, Melta, Flamer

Drop the Khorne, change the flamer to a melta and bump the squad down a bit and trim out the champion. If you do give the Lord wings the keep the icon, drop the champion and change the melta for a flamer.

Edited by PlagueWarriorOfDeath, 10 April 2009 - 03:33 AM.

In war, you needn't make worry about making mistakes, simply wait for your opponent to make one.

"The Emperor is dead, yet you grovel at a corpse in hopes of salvation. There is no salvation in the course you currently travel, only death. Embrace the powers and live on for eternity!"

#9
Brother Gothard

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I just wanted to add something: next time you post an army list, make the format more 'eye friendly.' I think everyone who replied with advice deserves a medal for reading your post.
"And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking and racing to come up behind you again"