Fixing Daemonhunters

[Aidoneus]

I've been playing Grey Knight-heavy daemonhunters for a couple years now, and I love them to death. No other army can match them for amazing backstory, stunning models, and sheer amount of awesome! Unfortunately, our codex is very old, and it's getting harder and harder to be competitive. Now I'm not one to sit here and whine, so instead, I decided to write my own update. Here it is!

 

This is meant to be a supplement to Codex: Daemonhunters. I believe that the basic format of the codex and the units therein is good, and only needs tweaks to bring it up to speed. I have gone page-by-page, and recorded any changes I deemed necessary to 1) bring the codex in line with current rules, and 2) beef the codex up to current power standards. The only two exceptions are two new Fast Attack choices I added, just because they've been in my head for a long time, and were too cool to not include.

 

This first post is going to be a Table of Contents, and I will divide my rules changes up into subsequent posts.

 

One last thing before I get started. These are all my own ideas. Many of them I have thought about for a while, but others just seemed like a good idea at the time. I am willing to discuss these changes with you, and even change my rules if I agree that your solutions are better. Just remember, I'm trying to keep this simple and also true to the spirit of Daemonhunters.

 

 

Table of Contents

 

1) Special Rules

2) Psychic Powers

3) The Armoury

4) Vehicle Upgrades

5) HQ

6) Elites

7) Troops

8) Transports

9) Fast Attack

10) Heavy Support

11) Special Characters

 

Relevant Links:

Updating GK Fast Attack (concluded in post #58 of that thread)

Updating DH Allies

New GK Army Lists

1000pt New GK Batrep vs. Chaos

Playtesting New Grey Knights

[Aidoneus]

1) Special Rules

 

Page 8

 

Daemons: (added according to post #151)

All references in this codex to "daemons," "the daemonic," or any variety thereof refer to the following units:

 

Eldar: Avatar

Dark Eldar: Warp Beasts

Chaos Daemons: Everything (including soulgrinders)

Chaos Marines: Daemon Princes, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons, Possessed, Chaos Spawn, vehicles with Daemonic Possession (which defilers have automatically)

Daemonhunters: Daemonhosts, Daemonic Adversaries

 

This list does not include units that exist in Apocalypse or Imperial Armour publications, nor any codices published after this update. In those cases, players should use common sense when determining what counts as daemonic.

 

 

Squad-Based Psychic Powers: (added according to post #339)

Grey Knight Terminators and Purgation squads can both use squad-based psychic powers. When using these powers, roll psychic tests using the highest leadership in the squad. For Terminators, the Brother Captain or Grand Master will count as the focus for the power, and the template must touch his base. In both units, if a Perils of the Warp is rolled, resolve D3 Perils attacks against the squad.

 

 

Fearless: (added according to post #65)

Grey Knights are inured to every manner of horror and death from their initiation; no power in the galaxy or beyond it can blunt their purpose. As such, they are Fearless. Additionally, Grey Knights are an elite force, used to fighting against vastly superior numbers. They do not take wounds from losing close combat.

 

 

Deep Strike: (edited according to post #107, 398)

Grey Knights are commonly teleported into position where they are needed most. Any unit or character with the Grey Knight special rule may be held in Reserve and enter play by Deep Strike even in missions which do not normally allow Deep Strike or Reserves.

 

 

The Shrouding:

The combined psychic prayers of Grey Knights are focussed in battle to constantly confuse and wrong-foot their enemies, blinding their corrupted senses with the shining light of their faith and resolution.

 

Each time an enemy unit fires at a unit of Grey Knights it must check if it can see them. Roll 4D6 and multiply this result by 2, giving a number between 8 and 48. This is the number of inches the Grey Knights can be spotted at, and if the unit is within this range then firing is conducted normally. A unit which fails to detect Grey Knights misses its chance to fire at an alternative target in the confusion. Barrage weapons fire as normal, but never count as having line of sight if the Grey Knight targets are outside the spotting range. Normal Night Fight skills and equipment such as searchlights have no effect on this power, but units which include a psyker can re-roll the dice and accept the second result instead. Actual Night Fight conditions override this rule.

 

 

Teleport Assault: (added according to post #98)

At the beginning of your first turn, you must choose half of your deep-striking Grey Knights squads (rounding up) to make a 'Teleport Assault.'. Units making a teleport assault arrive on the player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining units is rolled for as normal.

 

 

True Grit: (added according to post #344)

Any Grey Knight in power armour may count its Storm Bolter as an additional single-handed weapon in close combat. Grey Knights using their Storm Bolter in this way do not gain the +1 attack bonus for charging.

 

 

Rites of Exorcism:

The very presence of Grey Knights is nigh intolerable to Daemons. Their psychic purity and sonorous chants of detestation repel the daemonic and make it hard for them to remain near the Grey Knights. If any Grey Knights are on the table, all Daemons lose their Fearless rule. All daemons attempting to charge Grey Knights must roll for their Assault range as if they were moving in difficult terrain.

 

 

Daemonic Infestation: (edited according to post #151)

Whenever an enemy unit of Daemons taken as Troops is killed, the opponent may bring it back into play during his next turn by moving it on from his table edge exactly as if it were coming in from reserves. Daemon units brought back this way do not count as Scoring units, although they may contest objectives, and if they are killed again they give the Grey Knight player another Kill Point.

[Aidoneus]

2) Psychic Powers

 

Page 12

 

Banishment: (edited according to post #20)

Cast at the beginning of any assault phase. Any daemon unit with a model in base-to-base contact with the psyker must immediately take a Leadership check at -1 Ld (this modifier is cumulative with any other Leadership modifiers the daemons are subject to). The unit takes an automatic wound for each point it failed the test by, with no save of any sort allowed.

 

 

Holocaust:

(ignore sentence referring to partials)

 

 

Scourging: (added according to post #156)

AP 4

Assault 4

 

 

Null Zone:

(add Null Zone from Codex: Space Marines to list of Powers)

[Aidoneus]

3) The Armoury

 

Page 16

 

Anointed Weapon: 10pts, weapon upgrade

Bolter: 1pt

Chainfist: 25pts

Daemonhammer: 25pts

Daemonhunter Force Weapon: 25pts

Hell Pistol: 1pt

Lightning Claw: 15pts

Pair of Lightning Claws: 25pts

Plasma Pistol: 10pts

Power Fist: 15pts

Power Weapon: 10pts

Thunder Hammer: 20pts

 

Combi-Weapons: all 10pts

Eviscerator: 20pts

Incinerator: 15pts

Psycannon: 25pts

 

Bionics: 15pts, superscript 2

Carapace Armour: 5pts

Icon of the Just: 15pts

Psycannon Bolts: 8pts

Refractor Field: 10pts

Terminator Armour: 16pts

Orbital Strike: Xpts (same as codex HS choice), superscript 1

 

Null Zone: 20pts

 

Aegis: 10pts, Dreadnoughts only

Extra Armour: 15pts

Psycannon Bolts: 10pts, 20pts for a Crusader

Searchlight: free

Smoke Launchers: free

 

Ignore superscript 4

 

 

Anointed Weapon: (edited according to post #137, 156)

May only be taken for close combat weapons. Against Daemons, an anointed weapon will always cause wounds on the roll of 4+, unless this roll would normally need to be less. Against vehicles with the Daemonic Possession rule, and against Soul Grinders, the anointed weapon confers 2D6+Strength for armour penetration. Ignore the one per army rule.

 

 

Daemonhammer: (added according to post #126)

Remove the one per army rule.

 

 

Bionics:

Bionics allow a character who has suffered a crippling injury to return to service. Bionics confer the Feel No Pain special rule to the character equipped with them.

 

 

Page 17

 

Combi-Weapons:

(includes combi-flamers, combi-meltaguns, combi-plasma guns, combi-grenade launchers, and combi-needlers)

 

 

Digital Weapons: (added according to post #409)

A model with digital weapons may re-roll one failed roll to-wound in close combat per turn.

 

 

Grimoire of True Names: (added according to post #126)

Ignore the one per army rule.

 

 

 

Page 18

 

Storm Shield:

A storm shield confers a 3+ invulnerable save on the bearer. A model bearing a Storm Shield may never receive an additional attack in close combat for being armed with two close combat weapons.

 

 

Sacred Incense: (added according to post #126)

Ignore the one per army rule.

 

 

Teleport Homer:

If any friendly unit Deep Strikes within 6 inches of a model with a teleport homer, they do not roll for scatter, and instead land on target.

 

 

 

Page 19

 

Thunder Hammer:

Follows rules in main rulebook.

 

 

Orbital Strike: 1 per army. (added according to post #74)

 

May be melta-torpedo for Xpts, lance strike for Ypts, or Psi-Bomb for Zpts (as Codex: Daemonhunters)

 

Barrage Bomb is called Psi-Bomb and ignores invulnerable saves

 

During his shooting phase, the inquisitor may forgo shooting and instead call for the orbital strike. Select one piece of terrain on the board that the inquisitor has line of sight to. The strike is keyed to that piece of terrain. The Orbital Strike counts as an ordnance barrage, following the profile and special rules of the type selected. It lands every turn starting when the inquisitor calls for it, and must be centered in the terrain to which it is keyed. If the inquisitor forgoes his shooting, and has line of sight to the template, it scatters 2D6" minus his BS, otherwise it scatters the full 2D6. In any subsequent shooting phase, the inquisitor may forgo his shooting and call for the strikes to stop. When he does, the strike still lands on that turn, but will not land in any future turns.

[Aidoneus]

4) Vehicle Upgrades

 

Page 19

 

Aegis:

The Dreadnought counts as having The Aegis special rule, with an effective Leadership of 10.

 

 

Blessed:

The vehicle gains +1 to any armour penetration rolls it makes against Soulgrinders or any enemy vehicles with the Daemonic Possession upgrade. Additionally, any Daemons attempting to assault the vehicle must roll for their charge range as if assaulting through difficult terrain.

 

 

Psycannon Bolts: (edited according to post #107)

Any bolt weapon (storm bolter, twin-linked bolter, heavy bolter, hurricane bolter, or the bolter part of a combi-weapon) on the vehicle becomes AP 4 and ignores invulnerable saves.

 

 

Smoke Launchers:

(function as per the main rulebook)

 

 

Also, because there's no better place to put this...

 

Assault Cannon:

Heavy 4, Rending

 

Heavy Flamer:

Assault 1, Template

[Aidoneus]

5) HQ

 

Page 23

 

Grey Knight Hero: (edited according to post #65, 171)

WS 6

Comes with Icon of the Just automatically

Grand Master may purchase 2 Psychic Powers

 

Brother Captain: 60pts

Grand Master: 150pts

[Aidoneus]

6) Elites

 

Page 24

 

Daemonhost: (edited according to post #74)

80pts

Eternal Warrior

Random Abilities are not psychic powers

Powers happen at the beginning of the movement phase

 

 

Page 25

 

Grey Knight Terminators: (edited according to post #20, #151)

Brother Captain: 60pts

Grey Knight Terminator: 45pts

Psycannon: 20pts

Grey Knight Terminators can purchase a Land Raider dedicated transport for +250pts

 

 

Deathcult Assassins:

Frag, Krak, and Defensive Grenades

Squad: 1-3 (together)

Stealth

Replace Independent with following:

 

Strike Team:

Before the game begins, the Daemonhunter may split the unit up. In this case, the Deathcult Assassins all operate separately, and count as separate units for the duration of the game.

 

 

Page 26

 

Officio Assasinorum Operative: (edited according to post #201, 425)

Frag, Krak, and Defensive Grenades

Stealth

May be taken in lists that do not include an inquisitor or inquisitor lord.

May not be taken as allies unless a Daemonhunters Inquisitor Lord is also part of the force.

 

 

Vindicare Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #179, 201, 250, 425)

110pts

BS 7

 

Headshot! : Whenever the Vindicare rolls a 6 to-hit (on his first attempt, not the re-roll for having BS7) with his Exitus Rifle, the shot automatically wounds and counts as AP1.

 

 

Page 27

 

Culexus Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #201, 425)

105pts

 

Etherium:

Any unit wishing to shoot at or charge the Culexus Assassin must first pass a Leadership test: if the test is failed they may not target the Assassin, but may target another unit instead. No psychic power may target the Assassin, or include it in an area of effect.

 

Soulless:

Any unit (friend or foe) with a model within 12" of the Culexus Assassin suffers a -3 Ld penalty. This is cumulative with other Ld penalties.

 

 

Page 28

 

Callidus Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #214, 226, 425)

120pts

The Neural Shredder is a single-handed weapon, and therefore gives the Callidus the +1 attack bonus for having two single-handed weapons.

Against vehicles, the Neural Shredder automatically makes one roll on the vehicle damage table, with a -4 modifier

Jump Back becomes Hit and Run

 

 

Eversor Temple Assassin: (edited according to post #201, 425)

95pts

Fast Shot: Executioner Pistol is assault 2

[Aidoneus]

7) Troops

 

Page 29

 

Storm Troopers: (edited according to post #416)

Frag and Krak Grenades are free

Plasma Gun: 15pts

Flamer: 5pts

 

 

Grey Knights: (edited according to post #74, 151)

Frag, Krak and Defensive Grenades

Ignore sentence about Deep Striking if taken as Fast Attack

Justicar may purchase one psychic power from the armoury

Incinerator: 5pts

Psycannon: 15pts

[Aidoneus]

8) Transports

 

Page 30

 

Transports:

Treat as dedicated transports as per the rules in the main rulebook

Ignore counting as open-topped

Two models may fire out the top of a Rhino

 

 

Rhino:

35pts

Has the Repair special rule, as per Codex: Space Marines

 

 

Chimera: (edited according to post #226, 416)

55pts

Amphibious

Has no hull-mounted lasguns

Has 5 Fire Points

Comes with turret multi-laser and hull heavy bolter

 

Multi-laser can be upgraded to:

-Heavy Bolter: free

-Heavy Flamer: free

-Autocannon: +5pts

-Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: +10pts

 

May purchase Camo Nets +20pts

May purchase pintel heavy stubber +10pts

 

 

Land Raider: (edited according to post #226)

Power of the Machine Spirit

Assault Vehicle

[Aidoneus]

9) Fast Attack

 

New Fast Attack Unit (added according to Updating GK Fast Attack thread: see table of contents for link)

 

Purgation Squad (edited according to post #425)

Unit size changed to Justicar + 4-9 Grey Knights

Incinerator: 10pts

Psycannon: 20pts

 

Special Rules: The unit May choose ONE of the following...

 

-When teleporting in, the unit may re-roll the scatter and distance dice exactly like with a twin-linked blast weapon. They must accept the new results, even if they are worse! +10pts

 

-The squad has the psychic power Gate of Infinity. The entire squad counts as casting the power, exactly like Holocaust in a grey knight terminator squad. They are not subject to taking wounds when teleporting more than one model, as described in the power. +25pts

 

-The squad has the Heroic Intervention special rule. This ability may not be used during the first game turn. +15pts

[Aidoneus]

10) Heavy Support

 

Page 31

 

Purgation Squad: (edited according to post #151, Updating GK Fast Attack thread: see table of contents for link)

(Moved to Fast Attack. See post #10)

 

 

Orbital Strike: (edited according to post #74)

(Changed to wargear option. See Armoury post.)

 

 

 

Page 32

 

Grey Knight Land Raider: (edited according to post #226, 425)

Uses the rules from Codex: Space Marines

 

 

Grey Knight Land Raider Crusader: (edited according to post #226, 425)

Uses the rules from Codex: Space Marines

 

 

Grey Knight Land Raider Redeemer: (edited according to post #20, 425)

Exactly as Codex: Space Marines

May upgrade flamestorm cannons to ignore invulnerable saves for +10pts

 

 

Grey Knight Dreadnought: (edited according to post #74, 277, 425)

Psycannon: 30pts

Multi-Melta: 25pts

Plasma Cannon: 30pts

 

Heavy Flamer: 5pts

Incinerator: 10pts

 

May take Drop Pod transport as per Codex: Space Marines. Drop Pods are not subject to the Drop Pod Assault special rule, and will role to come in from reserves as normal.

 

May be upgraded to Venerable for +50pts

-makes BS 5

-gives venerable rule, as per Codex: Space Marines

 

May be given Shrouding for +30pts

 

 

This is the last of my main posts. I'm now opening this thread up to discussion. Please tell me what you think, both in terms of what you like and what you don't. I'm happy to explain any change I made, and also to hear you make your case for a change you would like for me to make. Hopefully, if we all work together, we can turn this into a set of rules that everyone is happy with, and which will let us once again take to the field of battle proud to be called Daemonhunters!

[killersquid]

I don't understand why bikers are necessary, I would imagine they are far to bulky to fill the role Grey Knights work. I really hate the idea of Grey Knights on bikes. Makes them seem more like codex:space marines then they are not. Jetpack greyknights makes more sense to me. but I don't understand why a 'minimalistic changes' includes adding two entire new units which have not been mentioned before ever, besides by wanting fans. Why not just keep the teleport squads? They are in themselves very cool. Maybe work with what we have, before abandoning them at the first chance.

 

Banishment seems a little too complicated. Why does every model need to take a test? How about each unit within X range needs to take a test, then takes the difference in wounds by how much they failed by. Seems a lot more simpler and intuitive too me.

 

Besides that, looks alright at first glance. I am just worried about adding things that space marines have, just because we don't. I like it that Grey Knights operate wildly differently then codex marines. They don't need to have units that are the same.

[Shunch]

All in all, very nice. The changes you've made aren't so drastic that its a complete overhaul, but are good enough in that they've addressed the more important points. Mostly, all your ideas seem fine - its mostly just clarifications and wording that I could have a problem with.

 

 

=Special Rules=

Army wide teleport is good, only because your average GK is not soem combat monster that could abuse the ability. Termies being able to choose the lowest scatter is good as well. As for the Shrouding, I very much like the rule allowing psyker units to re-roll - i think it brings a level of realism to the prior "uber cloud of invisibility". I feel that the actual effects are a bit weak though. My feelings are that, on average, a PAGK should be able to fire their stormbolters at maximum range whilst being outside of the average distance for the shrouding - that said, it may not be necessary now that the army as a whole is stronger. I have no complaints about rites of exorcism. I'm not so keen on the daemonic infestation though. It seems forced and out of place to me. I almost would say that Rites of Exorcism should be non-standard and have to be purchased in order to balance out the armies initial strength versus daemons. I'm not sure.

 

=Psychic powers=

As long as I'm right in assuming that the psychic powers from the codex that haven't been changed carry over exactloy, there shouldn't be any normal problems. I think banishment is a little on the weak side though - sure, it may kill a few daemonettes, but a base Ld 10 blooodthirster really won't care. Perhaps make the loss in wounds equal to the amount failed by, even if it meant taking away the -1 modifier?

 

=Wargear/Upgrades=

No real complaints.

 

=HQ=

Again, no problems. I might make the Grand Master more like 150 points, but I'm not too sure on that.

 

=Elites=

Daemonhosts have had their more important issues addressed, to at least put them on par with normal daemons. You might consider lowering them to 80 or 75 points though, even with the benefits. Correcting the ridiculous extra point added onto the termies was nice as well. As for Death-Cult Assassins, I don't think I like the strike team rule. I know where you're trying to go, but I still don't like. Perhaps you could just have DCA not give up kill points? The operatives seem fine, but I've always felt that the Culexus should be immune to psychic powers. Wouldn't that make sense?

 

=Troops=

no problems. Only thing I might change is no longer making the Justicar mandatory.

 

=Transports=

Simply bringing the old rules up-to-date. Nothing shocking here. just clean, succinct, and efficient.

 

=Fast Attack=

The lancers are fine, but the GK attack bike strikes me as a bit hokey. My only complaint for the assault squad is why they can't have incinerators. You might consider bolt pistols instead of storm bolters, too. I know it goes against the whole Grey Knights theme, but it seems like it would remove the large shooting power in a unit that can move 12" and shoot 24", and put more emphasis on assault.

 

=Heavy Support=

Hooray for the potentially useful barrage bomb! Also, I like the spotter special rule. The only thing I might add is giving the spotter the ability to turn off the barrage, assuming he is alive. I feel as though the redeemer should cost a bit more, but have Purified Flamestorms that ignore invulnerable saves.

 

 

All together, the changes you've made are very solid. Little alterations like this that it would realistically take GW next to nothing in time and energy to put out could make GK so much stronger an army.

 

Cheers,

Shunch

[Dzudzilla]

Just a couple of questions, would Grey Knights be able to purchase said transports or not? And about the lancers...i haven't been following the inquisition project lately, so could you explain the reasoning behind putting them on regular bikes instead of jetbikes as was originally suggested in 7eal's project? Other than that...why can't GW do this? Simple, effective...everyone's happy...

 

*typos , sorry english isn't my native language

*oh, and evidence would suggest that the GK redeemer is going to have flamestorm incinerators mounted, so no invulnerable saves...

[Ozybonza]

I would make the Brother Captain WS 5 and only have the GM as WS 6.

 

Teleport homers should cost more (I think they do for regular SM).

 

For simplicity's sake, I would replace true grit with a bolt pistol. I assume Space wolves will loose it in their new codex.

 

I'm also not sold on GK with bikes but I think Jump packs are OK. If you do have bikes, give the attack bike twin linked versions of it's weapons.

 

Incinerators should be free - you do loose one attack and your NFW afterall. Also psycannons should get a drop in points or be assault/heavy 4 or alternatively have rending. For a regular GK squad it's just not worth having, especially seeing as you loose the other weapons.

 

Transports - I think regular GK squads should have a rule saying they can only ride in land raiders, other than that follow the mainrulesbook. With the new rules, it will be oh-so tempting to buy storm troopers just for their chimera.

 

Speaking of storm troopers, should probably update to be in line with the new IG codex ie: 16 points each and actually good.

 

BTW I am of course all for bringing standard wargear in line with Codex:SM. I also play Dark Angels so I have three sets of the same wargear to worry about atm!

 

All in all, very good job you've done!

[FunkyEntropy]

I've always thought bikes are a little hokey for a universe technologically advanced enough to have hot plasma death flying every which way. Personally, I'd much rather see Grey Knights on some sort of mechanical steed. Fits the "knight" part to a T, and could potentially look pretty frikkin' sweet. Plus, since they wouldn't have the (5)T that comes with bikes it would help keep costs down.

 

Also, I think the costs of special weapons for PAGK squads should be toned down. The opportunity-cost of a psycannon/incinerator is just way too high most of the time.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Ozybonza Posted Today, 05:05 AM

I would make the Brother Captain WS 5 and only have the GM as WS 6.

 

What? If Grey Knights are better than Marines at CC (the WS 5), then the same should apply to our characters. Even a basic SM Captain is WS 6. Give the Grey Knight Hero Brother-Captain WS 7, the Terminator squad leader Brother-Captain WS 6, and the Grand Master WS 8. Heck, if Chaos can get up to WS 10 our characters should at least be able to get near that without needing a mandatory Grimoire of True Names.

 

For simplicity's sake, I would replace true grit with a bolt pistol. I assume Space wolves will loose it in their new codex.

 

No! True Grit with Storm Bolters is one of our unique abilities, don't throw it away just because it saves time.

 

i haven't been following the inquisition project lately,

 

I'm afraid the Inquisition Project can probably be pronounced dead. 7eAL hasn't appeared for some time, and really there's only been 3 of us down there for a while now. Still, now that the codex is coming, if anyone could find some contact details for whoever is writing the next DH codex, they're welcome to everything we've done down there. After all, it is their IP.

[White Russian]

You have some very interesting changes proposed, I agree with special rules you have revised to some extent. Although I became a sad panda right when i saw your proposition of fast attack.While we do lack fast attack and need something in that department, we are not smurfs, why would any self-respecting Grey Knight swap his =I= shoulder plate for an ugly "U" and paint his armour pimp-blue.

We should not get jump packs nor bikes nor drop pods. Grey Knights use teleportation, not just throw things down from their barge. I would see a unit of Grey Knights with some special in-game teleportation available (even though it still might be a tad hokey). No bikes as they are too big to teleport. Maybe a unit of regular PAGK with either a storm or combat shields available to them and some sort of quickening spell that would make them charge 12" and give them furious assault?

While dreadnaught is good, I would like to see an ironclad version available, or an upgrade at least.

 

Interesting thoughts.

Cheers

[number6]

I don't have time at the moment to offer any critiques, but at the same time I don't feel they're necessary. Your changes are all minor tweaks that are in keeping with your stated goal of keeping the current flavor and unique qualities of GKs intact. To me, the success of such an endeavor is measured by my willingness to allow an opponent to use them against me. I can say that your modifications would, without reservation, be welcome on any gaming table I am on.

 

Ace work, Aidoneus. :)

[Aidoneus]

Wow, so many replies! I'm certainly excited that this is stirring up this much interest. Reading through, I'm definitely agreeing with some, although not all, of the changes you guys are recommending. Keep the comments coming guys!

 

I don't understand why bikers are necessary, I would imagine they are far to bulky to fill the role Grey Knights work. I really hate the idea of Grey Knights on bikes. Makes them seem more like codex:space marines then they are not. Jetpack greyknights makes more sense to me. but I don't understand why a 'minimalistic changes' includes adding two entire new units which have not been mentioned before ever, besides by wanting fans. Why not just keep the teleport squads? They are in themselves very cool. Maybe work with what we have, before abandoning them at the first chance.

This is a common sentiment, so I'll address it here, since you mentioned it first. As I said, I admit that these two units fall outside my normal minimalism. The thing is, I've giving Teleport to every grey knight unit in the army, making our one and only Fast Attack unit pointless. I thought we needed something to fill that role, and since I'd already thought of these units anyway, I threw 'em in. Of course they're up for discussion, both in terms of refining these particular units, or replacing them with something better. However, I feel that even an approach like mine needs to add some Fast Attack unit(s), to keep from limiting our choices to only 4 FO categories.

 

My thought with the bikers was that they fit the knight theme. I see those halberd-shaped Nemesis Force weapons, and I just think, "those would work really well as lances!" I figured giving them Furious Charge would represent the utility of using them as such entering combat, and would steer the squad a bit more towards close combat, as opposed to space marine bikers who are pretty much just shooty units. The Assault Squad I don't like conceptually as much, but there are examples of fluff references to it (like that new "cover art" floating around, for example), and it certainly makes sense that the GKs would have something like that. One last thought: with so many daemons being so fast (winged, cavalry, fleet, etc) I thought Grey Knights should have some options that were equally fast to counter that threat.

 

Banishment seems a little too complicated. Why does every model need to take a test? How about each unit within X range needs to take a test, then takes the difference in wounds by how much they failed by. Seems a lot more simpler and intuitive too me.

I agree that my current version is too complicated. I do think it should be dependent on base-to-base contact though, like the original. How about this:

 

Banishment:

Cast at the beginning of any assault phase. Any daemon unit with a model in base-to-base contact with the psyker must immediately take a Leadership check at -1 Ld (this modifier is cumulative with any other Leadership modifiers the daemons are subject to). The unit takes an automatic wound for each point it failed the test by, with no save of any sort allowed.

 

.Besides that, looks alright at first glance. I am just worried about adding things that space marines have, just because we don't. I like it that Grey Knights operate wildly differently then codex marines. They don't need to have units that are the same.

I fully agree. But come on, do you honestly think adding in bikers and assault squads is going to make us "silver smurfs"? I understand your concern, but at the same time, if we don't allow ourselves a single new unit just because spacies have them, that's extremely limiting. After all, our land raiders don't make us smurfs, do they? And they're not even as unique as my lancers or GK assault marines. Just sayin'.

 

 

=Special Rules=

Army wide teleport is good, only because your average GK is not soem combat monster that could abuse the ability. Termies being able to choose the lowest scatter is good as well. As for the Shrouding, I very much like the rule allowing psyker units to re-roll - i think it brings a level of realism to the prior "uber cloud of invisibility". I feel that the actual effects are a bit weak though. My feelings are that, on average, a PAGK should be able to fire their stormbolters at maximum range whilst being outside of the average distance for the shrouding - that said, it may not be necessary now that the army as a whole is stronger. I have no complaints about rites of exorcism. I'm not so keen on the daemonic infestation though. It seems forced and out of place to me. I almost would say that Rites of Exorcism should be non-standard and have to be purchased in order to balance out the armies initial strength versus daemons. I'm not sure.

Teleport: Thanks for the encouragement!

Shrouding: Actually, the psyker thing is quote word-for-word out of our codex. :P Don't worry, I didn't see it there either until I was copying it down last night. About the range: the current range is 3D6x3. That gives a minimum of 9", an average of 31.5", and a maximum of 54." My version gives a min of 8", an average of 28", and a max of 48." So mine is a little shorter range, just to make it a little more useful, without going overboard (harlequins we are not). Remember, at the end of the day, Shrouding should just be keeping heavy weapons off your backs; it's not intended to limit enemy range to within your own threat bubble.

Daemonic Infestation: You're absolutely right in that it was forced. I was trying to think of a good way to do it without making it overpowered. I figured one squad a turn... But no, you're right. It needs to be redone. I just don't know how.

 

=Elites=

Daemonhosts have had their more important issues addressed, to at least put them on par with normal daemons. You might consider lowering them to 80 or 75 points though, even with the benefits. Correcting the ridiculous extra point added onto the termies was nice as well. As for Death-Cult Assassins, I don't think I like the strike team rule. I know where you're trying to go, but I still don't like. Perhaps you could just have DCA not give up kill points? The operatives seem fine, but I've always felt that the Culexus should be immune to psychic powers. Wouldn't that make sense?

Daemonhosts: I considered 80pts, but I don't want to get into the habit of lowering points willy-nilly. Those boosts should help. If other people think they're still too weak though, I could lower that a bit.

 

=Fast Attack=

The lancers are fine, but the GK attack bike strikes me as a bit hokey. My only complaint for the assault squad is why they can't have incinerators. You might consider bolt pistols instead of storm bolters, too. I know it goes against the whole Grey Knights theme, but it seems like it would remove the large shooting power in a unit that can move 12" and shoot 24", and put more emphasis on assault.

Okay, yeah, the attack bike is hokey. I wanted to get incinerators and psycannons in there, but I agree that attacks bikes shouldn't be the way to do that. Is there any way to mount those on regular bikes, or should I just leave the special weapons to the footsloggers?

Assault squads: Bolt pistols are right out. Pfft. We wouldn't use such paltry sidearms! One thought I did have was making their storm bolters 18", or even 12" range. Give it an excuse like it's hard to aim while flying. :P Rules-wise, I think it would do what you want, which I agree is a good idea.

 

=Heavy Support=

Hooray for the potentially useful barrage bomb! Also, I like the spotter special rule. The only thing I might add is giving the spotter the ability to turn off the barrage, assuming he is alive. I feel as though the redeemer should cost a bit more, but have Purified Flamestorms that ignore invulnerable saves.

Barrage bomb: I know, right! Simple solutions to simple problems. Even makes it more fluffy to boot.

Spotter: That might be fun. I think I'll add that. Maybe during your shooting phase, if he's alive, he can call for the strikes to stop, so starting next turn they don't come in any more?

 

 

Just a couple of questions, would Grey Knights be able to purchase said transports or not? And about the lancers...i haven't been following the inquisition project lately, so could you explain the reasoning behind putting them on regular bikes instead of jetbikes as was originally suggested in 7eal's project? Other than that...why can't GW do this? Simple, effective...everyone's happy...

:P Thanks.

Transports: Grey Knights cannot purchase transports. I was thinking over giving GKTs an option to take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport (seems to be standard now), but PAGKs are walking. Of course, they can always hop in someone else's ride mid-battle, according to the main rulebook.

Lancers: I've never seen 7eal's project. I know it's there, but 7eal's approach (with absolutely no offense meant to 7eal) is too far-reaching for me. I prefer just subtle changes. That being said, I can tell you why I chose bikes over jetbikes. Only the Master of the Ravenwing has a jetbike; the rest of the imperium has lost the technology! And anyway, we're bulky guys, and we need bulky rides. And finally, I think regular bikes are closer to horses than jetbikes, thus fitting the theme.

 

*oh, and evidence would suggest that the GK redeemer is going to have flamestorm incinerators mounted, so no invulnerable saves...

I don't think this should be standard, but I definitely like it as an upgrade option! Consider it done.

 

 

I would make the Brother Captain WS 5 and only have the GM as WS 6.

I think you'll find more people complaining that I left their WS so low! Anyway, a space marine captain has WS6, so a GK brother-captain should as well.

 

Teleport homers should cost more (I think they do for regular SM).

Do they now? I always remembered being annoyed that ours cost extra, which is why I lowered it. Can anyone tell me for sure how much a spacie tele homer costs?

 

Incinerators should be free - you do loose one attack and your NFW afterall. Also psycannons should get a drop in points or be assault/heavy 4 or alternatively have rending. For a regular GK squad it's just not worth having, especially seeing as you loose the other weapons.

Here's the thing: most GK armies include incinerators and/or psycannons. I know mine do. Yes, they're expensive, but they're obviously still worth taking. My motto: if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But then again, you're not the only one to mention this, so I suppose I'm up for the debate. Convince me to lower the price, and I'll do it.

 

Transports - I think regular GK squads should have a rule saying they can only ride in land raiders, other than that follow the mainrulesbook. With the new rules, it will be oh-so tempting to buy storm troopers just for their chimera.

At the moment, GKs can ride in rhinos or razorbacks from a host spacie army, and they can ride in immolators, rhinos, or chimeras from a host witch hunters list. I don't see this as a problem. If GKs were on the field of battle with some ISTs, and the ISTs were on foot and their transport were just hangin' out by the GKs, why shouldn't the grey knights be able to hop in for a quick ride?

 

Speaking of storm troopers, should probably update to be in line with the new IG codex ie: 16 points each and actually good.

I plan to do this when that codex actually comes out.

 

 

I've always thought bikes are a little hokey for a universe technologically advanced enough to have hot plasma death flying every which way. Personally, I'd much rather see Grey Knights on some sort of mechanical steed. Fits the "knight" part to a T, and could potentially look pretty frikkin' sweet. Plus, since they wouldn't have the (5)T that comes with bikes it would help keep costs down.

That, to me, seems hokey. There also isn't much evidence of such mechanical creations. I think the bike fits well enough.

 

 

What? If Grey Knights are better than Marines at CC (the WS 5), then the same should apply to our characters. Even a basic SM Captain is WS 6. Give the Grey Knight Hero Brother-Captain WS 7, the Terminator squad leader Brother-Captain WS 6, and the Grand Master WS 8. Heck, if Chaos can get up to WS 10 our characters should at least be able to get near that without needing a mandatory Grimoire of True Names.

Let's not go overboard here. You're talking about greater daemons, who are the consummate masters of hand-to-hand combat. There's no way we're going to even approach that! I'm be willing to go so far as WS7 on the GM, but I'm not even convinced that that's necessary. Where is is writ that we're all that great at close combat?

 

 

You have some very interesting changes proposed, I agree with special rules you have revised to some extent. Although I became a sad panda right when i saw your proposition of fast attack.While we do lack fast attack and need something in that department, we are not smurfs, why would any self-respecting Grey Knight swap his =I= shoulder plate for an ugly "U" and paint his armour pimp-blue.

Again, I see this as a big leap of logic. How does using equipment available to smurfs make us the same as them? We still have NFWs, we still have storm bolters, we still deep-strike (yep, even bikers), we still have all those GK special rules, we're still WS5, and I gave 'em furious charge to represent the lances. What do smurfs have? combi-bolters. I, for one, do not fear being confused with them.

 

We should not get jump packs nor bikes nor drop pods. Grey Knights use teleportation, not just throw things down from their barge. I would see a unit of Grey Knights with some special in-game teleportation available (even though it still might be a tad hokey). No bikes as they are too big to teleport. Maybe a unit of regular PAGK with either a storm or combat shields available to them and some sort of quickening spell that would make them charge 12" and give them furious assault?

We use teleportation, but not to the exclusion of all else. How do we get our land raiders down? or our dreadnoughts? Those have to land conventionally somehow. I figure a drop pod is exactly what the GKs would use to land a dreadnought. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

 

As for re-teleporting, two problems: first, is there any evidence GKs do that? Second, isn't that just making us like a space marine libbie with Gate of Infinity, or necrons with Veil of darkness?

 

While dreadnaught is good, I would like to see an ironclad version available, or an upgrade at least.

Same questions: Is there evidence GKs have this? Does it not make us more like regular spacies?

 

 

I don't have time at the moment to offer any critiques, but at the same time I don't feel they're necessary. Your changes are all minor tweaks that are in keeping with your stated goal of keeping the current flavor and unique qualities of GKs intact. To me, the success of such an endeavor is measured by my willingness to allow an opponent to use them against me. I can say that your modifications would, without reservation, be welcome on any gaming table I am on.

Thanks 6! I look forward to hearing a more in-depth response from you later. I'm sure you can set me straight on a lot of things! :sweat:

 

 

Thanks again for all your replies everyone! I'll work on getting these changes incorporated in my first few posts. Meanwhile, keep the ideas coming!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

We use teleportation, but not to the exclusion of all else. How do we get our land raiders down? or our dreadnoughts? Those have to land conventionally somehow. I figure a drop pod is exactly what the GKs would use to land a dreadnought. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

 

GK Dreadnoughts use Drop Pods - Forgeworld have already given us that option. Land Raiders use Thunderhawk Transporters, as usual. However, Drop Pods are inferior to teleportation - why bother risking getting shot down on the way if you can just appear instantaneously out of thin air?

 

While dreadnaught is good, I would like to see an ironclad version available, or an upgrade at least.

Same questions: Is there evidence GKs have this? Does it not make us more like regular spacies?

 

No. GKs use far less Dreadnoughts than anyone else, they don't like the idea of being 'canned up' and must give personal consent before it can happen. It stands to reason that they would have far less variants. You could get away with making them all Venerable, to represent the greater skill to which a Grey Knight is trained, but that's about it.

[Shunch]

Shrouding: Actually, the psyker thing is quote word-for-word out of our codex.

Whew, good thing I don't play GK very much, or I would've been terribly pissed. Learn something new everyday I guess; in this case, it wasn't that how the Shrouding works, it was that I'm semi-illiterate :P

 

Anyways, thanks for providing answers to my questions, and so thoroughly too!

 

As for the discussion on drop pods, my personal feelings are that Grey Knights should not have them - for several reasons. One, I feel doing so is too smurfy. I can take pseudo-assault marines, and maybe even bikes, but podding dreads just seems unnecessary to me. While I understand there would be a desire to field an all-deepstriking GK army, with dreads as support, I still don't like it. As it is, I feel that the few dreadnaughts possessed by the GK would be too valuable to be committed via drop-pod - it seems that their role would be strategic vanguard deployment, in heavy landers.

 

That said, I could still bear the drop-pod, because as I typed out the phrase "all-deepstriking GK army",

I got excited enough to compromise.

 

I wanted to get incinerators and psycannons in there, but I agree that attacks bikes shouldn't be the way to do that. Is there any way to mount those on regular bikes, or should I just leave the special weapons to the footsloggers?

Personally, I would say leave the psycannons to the poor bloody infantry. If the biker squad really wants it, they can always give the Justicar psycannon bolts. Incinerators though, can be man portable. After all, if a normal marine can operate a plasma gun or a standard flamer when he's on a bike, why shouldn't the best of the best (of the best) be able to use slightly larger flamethrowers?

 

Thats all for now.

 

Cheers,

Shunch

[Aidoneus]

That said, I could still bear the drop-pod, because as I typed out the phrase "all-deepstriking GK army",

I got excited enough to compromise.

hehehe... yeah. That thought makes me very happy indeed.

 

Oh, by the way, I realized I never replied to part of your post (so much for thoroughness :P )

=Elites=

As for Death-Cult Assassins, I don't think I like the strike team rule. I know where you're trying to go, but I still don't like. Perhaps you could just have DCA not give up kill points? The operatives seem fine, but I've always felt that the Culexus should be immune to psychic powers. Wouldn't that make sense?

Deathcults: What, specifically, do you not like about the strike team rule? I thought this would probably be contentious, and I'm perfectly willing to change it if that's what consensus dictates. But I'd like more information on your feelings towards it. As for giving up no KPs, that's an option, but I'm afraid of suddenly seeing lists with 9 DCAs all over the place. Anyway, this needs to be discussed more.

 

Culexus: I agree. Consider it done.

[Shunch]

Deathcults: What, specifically, do you not like about the strike team rule? I thought this would probably be contentious, and I'm perfectly willing to change it if that's what consensus dictates. But I'd like more information on your feelings towards it. As for giving up no KPs, that's an option, but I'm afraid of suddenly seeing lists with 9 DCAs all over the place. Anyway, this needs to be discussed more.

I'm not entirely sure what it is, but the rule just doesn't sit right with me. Like the Rites of Exorcism rule, it just feels kind of forced or unnatural. Before I can put my finger on it, I have to know what the rule is actually trying to accomplish. Is it just because? Or is there a special reason that you feel DCA should have this ability? As for seeing lists with 9 assassins present, let's not jump to the conclusion that not giving up KP will make the DCA off the hook. If it does become a problem, you could bump squad size up to 1-4 or even 1-6, but make the unit choice only 0-1.

 

Also, should the Culexus get an increase in cost because of the psyker immunity? If so, by how much? It's important to remember that etherium already gives it some measure of protection against psykers, especially in conjunction with the Soulless special rule.

 

Cheers,

Shunch

 

 

EDIT: Dyslexia off the starboard side, Cap'n!

[Dzudzilla]

Hmm, i wonder why are Dreadnoughts considered to be too big for teleportation...I mean, we use teleports to transport entire squads of Terminators at least if you go by the description in the codex ( the fluff piece for Stern has him teleporting with his battle brothers, numbers unspecified but i'd assume that they mean more than two...and they're not jumping out one by one, all of them at once ). If a squad of fully equipped terminators are not too bulky to be teleported why should we accept as fact the notion that Dreadnoughts are?

The Grey Knights have been using this technology for millennia, surely someone must have thought of it and tried it as well...Anything to improve their chances against the forces of chaos.Probably borderline heresy on my part but nevertheless...Or do you think they are considered to be too valuable to risk their loss via an accident?