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1500p Undivided Warband (or something)


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#1
janekk

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HQ

2x Daemon Prince = 130p = 260p
Wings

ELITES

Chaos Terminators = 105p
3x Terminator, 3x Combi-Melta

TROOPS

2x Chaos Space Marines = 205p = 410p
10x Chaos Marine, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Flamer
Chaos Rhino

Chaos Space Marines = 225p
10x Chaos Marine, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Meltagun
Chaos Rhino, Combi-Melta

= 1000p

Main thought of this list is to "keep it cheap so I can get more bodies", I made lots of savings by not using expensive champions and not spending points on upgrades for prince (and lookie that way I can afford two of them to fill my lack of power fists in csm squads), list works quite well for me with one exception. I want to drop termicide as they just won't work for me, in almost every game I used them they literally did nothing and 10% of army doing nothing is quite a setback. Problem is that for 105p I can't find good replacement. I was thinking about squad of raptors which would go well with that wall of rhinos but there is nothing to trim points from, maybe dropping one prince, getting winged lord to acompany instead ( but "working" winged lord is more expensive than bare bones prince :( , well I would love to have lord instead of twin princes cheddar but as I'm not best player out there I would also like to have working list to compensate :evil: ). I also consider oblits, they would surely come in handy but again there is nothing I can trim points from for second oblit. Any ideas what to take what to change/drop? I'm highly indecisive guy so I need your comments :P .

Edited by janekk, 06 April 2009 - 02:12 PM.


#2
Bonham1963

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May I suggest you drop one of the DP's. Change the dp to MOS, drop the wings and give him warptime. Keep the rhinos, bare bones. All they need is they twin linked bolter, as combi melta is a waste. At a 1000 pts, you don't really need 2 hq and you have 3 troop choice, which is plenty at 1000 pts. Use the points you save on 3 oblits. Oblits are the swiss army knife of chaos and I would walk him in with the DP. DP can take wounds for oblits and they will be a mobile heavy weapon platform. Best of luck.

#3
the jeske

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Change the dp to MOS, drop the wings and give him warptime

0_0 you never ever drop wing from a DP . You can do many things like taking icon of khorn or not taking psychic powers , but you always take wings. otherwise the DP is like a hth carnifex .

as the army goes . 1k pts isnt unbalanced thats one thing and I would not advice playing a lot of games at this number of pts , as it surelly leds to some people quiting the game . But aside of that its a good place to lear how to use stuff . Play some games with 4 troops and 2 HQs . then try to play with 1 hq 3 troops and 4 oblits . Try to play 1hq 2x3termis and troops 3 . try out pms instead of csm or a more assault version of the list with zerkers . 1k pts is a nice place to learn to play.

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#4
Zhukov

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I would not advice playing a lot of games at this number of pts , as it surelly leds to some people quiting the game .


Haha thats so true. A regular oponent of me quitted playing 1000 points w/ his marines as he got stomped over and over again against chaos and orks. So he ended up buying some termies to play deathwing. But indeed after a while 1k isnt fun anymore, you'll want to play 1500+.

but anyways:

Its good enough for 1k. Actually if you take 2 princes and some troops its good enough anyway for 1k against most armies.
But to make it real good, believe you want 2 Oblits at 1k.

Edited by Zhukov, 06 April 2009 - 08:27 AM.

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#5
janekk

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I would not advice playing a lot of games at this number of pts , as it surelly leds to some people quiting the game .


Haha thats so true. A regular oponent of me quitted playing 1000 points w/ his marines as he got stomped over and over again against chaos and orks. So he ended up buying some termies to play deathwing. But indeed after a while 1k isnt fun anymore, you'll want to play 1500+.

but anyways:

Its good enough for 1k. Actually if you take 2 princes and some troops its good enough anyway for 1k against most armies.
But to make it real good, believe you want 2 Oblits at 1k.

Oh my my, if Jeske and Zhukov don't scream at this list that its poor, weak etc. and even write "Its good enough" then it means I can safely go to tourney.

Ok seriously now. I definitely would want oblits as I seriously lack long range fire support here but I'm affraid that dropping one prince to get them won't do as I need those 2 princes to compensate for lack of fists (at least thats how I see it :) ).

I never heard that one about 1000p beign unbalanced, but I suppose you're right. The thing is I wanted to practice a little bit more before going for highier points. I'm newcomer to 40k, I started not long time after launch of 5th Edition and I rarely play, around once weekly, with lots of breaks, and around 75% of my games are 500p skirmishes, also so far I do as you suggested, try out stuff, I rarely play with same list again. But with your comment in mind I think I'll go for 1500p right away. I'll edit this list for 1500p and post it later.

EDIT:

Here it goes:

HQ

Chaos Sorcerer = 165p
Wings, Warptime, Plasma Pistol, Melta Bombs

TROOPS

2x Chaos Space Marines = 205p = 410p
10x Chaos Marine, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Flamer
Chaos Rhino

Chaos Space Marines = 215p
10x Chaos Marine, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Meltagun
Chaos Rhino

Chaos Space Marines = 170p
10x Chaos Marine, Icon of Chaos Glory, Missle Launcher

FAST ATTACK

Chaos Raptors = 240p
Aspiring Champion, Lightning Claws
8x Raptor, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2x Flamer

HEAVY SUPPORT

2x Obliterator Cult = 150p = 300p
2x Obliterator

= 1500p

I took CSM unit with Missle Launcher for dedicated objective camper. I know that people preffer Plagues but its undivided warband + they can actually do something when sitting on that objective + I done plagues before so its time for something new. I usually don't take plasma pistols as they are expensive, risky, only one shot but I think that with warptime it should work well and buy its points back (Blam! Headshot :D ). In absence of princes oblits will take care of dreadnoughts and other stuff dangerous to powerfistless csm. I'll test it out tomorow if I'll find time. Any comments/suggestions are welcome.

Edited by janekk, 06 April 2009 - 02:41 PM.


#6
Zhukov

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Drop the raptors, take some fists in your csm squad and where did the 2 princes go?!?

good sorcerer setup though.

Edited by Zhukov, 06 April 2009 - 04:30 PM.

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#7
janekk

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Why drop raptors? They should be good retinue for sorceror. Putting him in csm unit is no no since I will lose spec weapon, letting him fly around alone is even worse idea. I didn't take fists to get more bodies (1 Aspiring Champion with fist = about 3,5 CSM), one of reasons to do this is to try something different, other is that I fail with dice so missing all attacks from champ isn't unusual. I know that leaves my CSM with less flexibility but they still have their grenades so unless I will run into dread, wraithlord, other highly resistant CC monstrosities I should be fine and that certainly can be achieved by tactics and stuff. About princes, well thats one of two reasons I started this thread, first most important was to replace termicide with something useful, second was to do something different than twin princes. From your comment I take that this sorc is alright for HQ? But what would you recommend for his living shields, raptors seem to be cut perfectly for this role (I guess I'll probably hear something about zerkers :rolleyes: ). No comment about campers?

Edited by janekk, 06 April 2009 - 06:04 PM.


#8
chillin

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I'm not a big fan of sorc w/ WT, a lord or a DP are still both better in CC. If you go w/ sorc use a shooty sorc pwr. Also I don't like PP on characters (or champs for that matter). As Zhukav sz, you need some PF champs in your csm squads, they have short ranged meltas and flamers so they will be in CC.
Also as Zhukav said, I wouldn't use raptors as a retinue, too expensive, no better in CC or more durable the reg csm's but 30% more expensive. I never take a ret for my winged lord or sorc. I advance him behind rinos, then leap frog him from unit to unit as he is needed.

#9
janekk

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I'm not a big fan of lord in comparsion to sorceror, ok DW's are nice but so is re rolling hits and wounds, and sorc can use force weapon to instant kill enemy HQ's, about Plasma pistol, I'm not a fan myself especialy on champs but take in consideration that with warptime I can reroll to hit (so I need 2 consecutive 1 to overheat) and to wound, with that its almost guaranteed MEQ kill and points back, to get shooty power with warptime I would have to pay at least 20p more than for plasma and plasma works for me as it can kill marines, harm vehicles from side etc. Sorc with only shooting power can only shoot not so game breaking power, with warptime he slaughters in CC and plasma pistol is bonus from warptime. I haven't done any calculations but everyhing seems to add up :jaw: .

Well CSM are meant to get in CC but Powerfist champ is lots of points, instead of champs I got about half of brand new CSM unit in rhino. I did this because I don't see powerfist beign so compulsory, against infantry I have enough attacks so champ is luxury here, against armour I have grenades (and against vehicles like landraider that grenades cant scratch fist isn't much better), only thing that can threaten me are walkers and MC's with very high toughness but I can avoid them/shoot them down with oblits. Well probably as usual I'm missing something here.

Hmmm.... ok raptors are more expensive but they get jump packs after all, so better threat range, they can move 12" and assault, Csm can acomplish this only with expensive LR, but I guess its not that much after all. You convinced me to take something else but question is what?

Well I intended to hide raptors + Sorc behind rhino wall but doing this with only sorcerer is something that I didn't think about. Actually thats very intresting option.

Thanks for input it certainly gave me something to think about :jaw: . But as always further comments and suggestions are welcome.

#10
Iron_Chaos_Brute

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Drop the raptors, switch sorc (the build hurts) for a WT prince if you don't want lash (cheaper and better), get more oblits, drop the ML squad and buy fists.
There is no surer way to get me to tear your army list up for you than claiming that it's unbeatable.

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#11
the jeske

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Oh my my, if Jeske and Zhukov don't scream at this list that its poor, weak etc. and even write "Its good enough" then it means I can safely go to tourney.

the truth is that chaos compering to some lists at 1k pts [ork biker lists for example or DW] isnt really that good . I had most success with 4 troops armies with no bling just tough troops and 2 hqs .


No comment about campers?

yep a 170 pts RL is way way over costed.

only thing that can threaten me are walkers and MC's with very high toughness but I can avoid them/shoot them down with oblits

I dont think you can avoid a winged tyrant or prince [specially a lash one] or an eldar build that plays with 2 WL and an avatar. and there is no way you are going to take them out with 4 oblits . same with dreadnoughts , if someone uses them they should be iron clads in drop pods and while it is true that you can smoke them with 4 oblits[unless someone knows how to block LoS with the pod . But this is just 2 dreads . there is a big chance you will also have other targets you want to counter[the ironclad drop dreads are there to do just that force you to revert fire power for a turn or two] and then your in trouble.


as the sorc + raptors go . well its not a set up i like , but it aint bad in itself . I woudl take a fist there for sure . hq+squad cant end up tar pited by a single[much cheaper] unit and they actually cant even hurt a wright lord . dont worry about low I on the fist and less attacks m if the sorc is there you already have a lot of power attacks coming from the unit. Personally I would go with a lord +raptors .

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#12
janekk

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No comment about campers?

yep a 170 pts RL is way way over costed.

Thats what I wanted to hear, I suppose there is no reason to take big camper unit, because if enemy goes for home objective its already all lost.

only thing that can threaten me are walkers and MC's with very high toughness but I can avoid them/shoot them down with oblits

I dont think you can avoid a winged tyrant or prince [specially a lash one] or an eldar build that plays with 2 WL and an avatar. and there is no way you are going to take them out with 4 oblits . same with dreadnoughts , if someone uses them they should be iron clads in drop pods and while it is true that you can smoke them with 4 oblits[unless someone knows how to block LoS with the pod . But this is just 2 dreads . there is a big chance you will also have other targets you want to counter[the ironclad drop dreads are there to do just that force you to revert fire power for a turn or two] and then your in trouble.

Well lash doesn't work on rhinos? ;) Well other than that I think you're right even slowa** wraithlords can't be avoided that easly if enemy will put them up front blocking way to rest of army, well this means fists go back to squads. Eh, I wanted power armoured semi horde :P

as the sorc + raptors go . well its not a set up i like , but it aint bad in itself . I woudl take a fist there for sure . hq+squad cant end up tar pited by a single[much cheaper] unit and they actually cant even hurt a wright lord . dont worry about low I on the fist and less attacks m if the sorc is there you already have a lot of power attacks coming from the unit. Personally I would go with a lord +raptors .

If I count right its third person which doesn't likes my sorc :lol: . Well actually I didn't worry about low I, I took claws cause they look cool (but more seriously, I didn't take fist to see if I can avoid getting tar pitted and rely on oblits to take out dangerous stuff, normaly I would put fist in there, but I suppose now there is no reason to learn it hard way)


Wait a second I think I just saw something weird..........

Personally I would go with a lord +raptors .

Thats right! No princes?! You actually recommend getting lord (and raptors)? I didn't expect that, honestly.
Question is how viable option lord is (and raptors)? Do you recommend him (and raptors) just because I want something different than twin princes? And what setup for lord? Str5 DW would be alright?

Ps. So far it seems like building working list other than "done to death" twin princes, fist champs, and some oblits etc. is harder than I thought. Well some options are better than others I suppose. Damn you GW, why can't you properly test out your rule sets?

#13
the jeske

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Thats right! No princes?! You actually recommend getting lord (and raptors)? I didn't expect that, honestly.

well if your taking raptors for hth [and as I said before not the best of choice in my eyes] , then a lord has a better kill ratio then a sorc . specially the nurgle one with a demon weapon. with re-roll it is far better against every opponent you will face [save maybe tanks].
as how good he is . well he aint a DP . he has good sides [you dont have to worry about psychic hoods etc] and bad sides[you roll 1 on demon weapon , you screwd]. lords are nice for LR armies when they can support units like zerkers to break other hard hth armies [like chaos] , they are offten used as counter set ups to ork bikers[with blissgivers] or hard anti meq[generally nurgle is seen as best choice].


So far it seems like building working list other than "done to death" twin princes, fist champs, and some oblits etc. is harder than I thought. Well some options are better than others I suppose.

yes we all more or less play with same armies . most decisions are really cosmetic . like if we want to take fists for obejctive camper units , or can rapid fire plasma squads get away without having champs . the main job of a list builder today is how to get around 25pts fists and stuff going up in points and still have a working army without playing 2k-2250pts games.

"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#14
Zhukov

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Ps. So far it seems like building working list other than "done to death" twin princes, fist champs, and some oblits etc. is harder than I thought. Well some options are better than others I suppose. Damn you GW, why can't you properly test out your rule sets?


Well its kinda sad, but true. You gotta ask yourself the question if you want you play real competative or not. If you know the answer you probably know by now what to do.

And yes I dont like a sorcerer either, but I do like the setup.

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