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What do I need in a 1k list?


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#1
Freakiq

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I've just started building a Death Guard army for a friendly tourny one month away.

I know I'll be inluding 2 7-man squads in Rhinos and maybe a dakka predator but not much else.


So I wonder, what are the essential units in a balanced 1000pt DG army and is there anything special I need to think of as a newborn Nurgling?

Edited by Freakiq, 27 April 2009 - 09:16 AM.


#2
veidin

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My 1000 pt DG army is as follows.

HQ: DP, Wings, MoN, Rot - 165

Troops: 6 PM, 2 flamers, champ, P fist - 188
6 PM, 2 flamers, champ, P fist - 188
6 PM, 2 Meltas, champ, P fist - 198

Transports: 3 Rhinos - 105

Heavy: 2 Oblits - 150

Total: 994

Otherwise you could drop one of the flamer PM squads and go 2 more oblits, or another DP.

#3
Zhukov

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In 1k I find that either 1 Dp + 4 Oblits or 2 Dp's + 2 Oblits is the way to go. Dakka pred is not 'wrong', but its not the best choice either.

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#4
Freakiq

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Thanks for the replies!

I'll be following your advice and increasing the Plague Marines to 3 Rhino mounted 7-man squads.
Still unsure about how to arm them but I'm thinking a Flamer and Melta in each squad for versatility.

Will check the local store for Obliterators, If they don't have any I'll stick to the Dakka Predator or maybe switch to a Poissessed Vindicator.

For HQ I'll take a flying prince with Warp Time for some extra cc power and tank busting.

#5
nurglez

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some people like mixing special weapons, but most prefer going for 2 of the same.

Winged prince with warptime is always a good choice :D

#6
Freakiq

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My latest updated list:

Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Warp Time. 175

7 Plague Marines, Champion Upgrade, Power Fist, Plasmagun, Flamer.
Rhino with Dozerblade and Havoc Launcher. 276

7 Plague Marines, Champion Upgrade, Power Fist, Plasmagun, Flamer.
Rhino with Dozerblade and Havoc Launcher. 276

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession. 145

Predator, Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade, Twin-linked Bolter, Extra Armour. 125


Exchanged the Meltaguns for Plasmas in order to make the PM's more specailized in dealing with light and heavy infantry since they would be wasting shots firing at tanks anyway.

And I know 2 squads of PM's feels a bit small but I felt it was worth to sacrifice them in order to bring more vehicles and up the killing power of the list.

It might be a bit light on anti tank but since I figured every unit in the army can deal with at least armour 10 units it shouldn't be a problem.


Thinking about skipping the Havoc launchers and giving the Champions and Rhinos combi-flamers and meltas.


Thoughts?

Edited by Freakiq, 27 April 2009 - 02:06 PM.


#7
veidin

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Drop havoc launchers, also you now have mixed an assault special weapon with a rapid fire special which will deny you a charge. A single Vindicator probably wont last long enough to make its points worth while. With mass 4+ cover saves the 145 pts you spent on it, will be destroyed before it kills more than 2 troops. Lastly unless you just want your Pred rolling around not shooting extra armour wont help, since shaken rolls will deny your shooting, which is what a Pred is there for.

#8
Freakiq

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Drop havoc launchers, also you now have mixed an assault special weapon with a rapid fire special which will deny you a charge. A single Vindicator probably wont last long enough to make its points worth while. With mass 4+ cover saves the 145 pts you spent on it, will be destroyed before it kills more than 2 troops. Lastly unless you just want your Pred rolling around not shooting extra armour wont help, since shaken rolls will deny your shooting, which is what a Pred is there for.


Actually I'm kinda counting on the low amount of anti tank and the number of Ork players around (Orks lack good anti tank) to keep my tanks safe.
The extra armour for the predator is to ensure that if it gets into trouble I'll at least be able to get out of there and maybe take up a better firing position.

Would remove the extra armour if I needed the points though.

As for the Vindicator, I could get some Obliterators instead but that would make my transports and my Predator draw more anti tank fire, and with the horde armies around here I doubt there will be a lack of targets out of cover for it to kill.

Edited by Freakiq, 27 April 2009 - 02:44 PM.


#9
veidin

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Right but keep in mind you need to be within 24" to fire your cannon, most orks are gonna be trukked up and those are assault vehicles. Your Vind is gonna take a str 10 power claw to its rear end. Just my experience with single Vindicators :P

#10
Zhukov

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Really Obliterators are much better than a single vindi, especially in 1k, because its gives you much needed versatility. Obliterators wont go down to small arms fire easily either, in my experience Oblits = comparable to tank if it comes to drawing heavy fire.

Really Obliterators = win. And I'm not only speaking from out theory, I almost tried every unit in the codex and 1 vindi nor 1 pred is any good really.

And DONT mix flamer with plasma. Make them 2 flamers and 2 plasmas. You need the anti tank in the form of Oblits too.

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#11
Freakiq

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Really Obliterators are much better than a single vindi, especially in 1k, because its gives you much needed versatility. Obliterators wont go down to small arms fire easily either, in my experience Oblits = comparable to tank if it comes to drawing heavy fire.

Really Obliterators = win. And I'm not only speaking from out theory, I almost tried every unit in the codex and 1 vindi nor 1 pred is any good really.

And DONT mix flamer with plasma. Make them 2 flamers and 2 plasmas. You need the anti tank in the form of Oblits too.


The thing is that since it's only 1000 points I'm not likely to face heavy fire.

Might change the plasmaguns for more flamers if I can find enough of them.

Edited by Freakiq, 27 April 2009 - 05:50 PM.


#12
veidin

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Really Obliterators are much better than a single vindi, especially in 1k, because its gives you much needed versatility. Obliterators wont go down to small arms fire easily either, in my experience Oblits = comparable to tank if it comes to drawing heavy fire.

Really Obliterators = win. And I'm not only speaking from out theory, I almost tried every unit in the codex and 1 vindi nor 1 pred is any good really.

And DONT mix flamer with plasma. Make them 2 flamers and 2 plasmas. You need the anti tank in the form of Oblits too.


The thing is that since it's only 1000 points I'm not likely to face heavy fire.

Might change the plasmaguns for more flamers if I can find enough of them.


Famous last words. :P Again you wont face heavy fire from orks but you're going to face Str 10 power claws. 24" range means you're going to get one shot off before a Trukk is on top of you with Orkz spilling out assaulting it into destruction.

#13
Freakiq

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Famous last words. :P Again you wont face heavy fire from orks but you're going to face Str 10 power claws. 24" range means you're going to get one shot off before a Trukk is on top of you with Orkz spilling out assaulting it into destruction.


That's why you shoot the Trukks first. :P



After debating with myself I've decided for some more changes:

Removed the Havoc Launchers from the Rhinos and gave them and my champions combi-flamers as well as switching the Plasma Guns for more flamers.


Anyways, the list as it stands now is as follows:

Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Nurgle, Warp Time. 175

7 Plague Marines, Champion Upgrade, Power Fist, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Flamer.
Rhino with Dozerblade and Combi-flamer. 271

7 Plague Marines, Champion Upgrade, Power Fist, Combi-flamer, Flamer, Flamer.
Rhino with Dozerblade and Combi-flamer. 271

Vindicator, Daemonic Possession. 145

Predator, Heavy Bolters, Dozer Blade, Twin-linked Bolter, Extra Armour. 125


I'm still considering switching the Vindicator for some obliterators as I'm being offered a good deal on them by a friend.

#14
DemetriiTZ

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1. No Havoc Launchers.
2. No plasma. Plasma is awful in 5e. Abundant cover saves coupled with overheat chances (even if they're slim), combined with an inability to handle AV14. You'll do as much damage with a pair of meltaguns or flamers, combined with pistol shots and a full strength charge, if not more damage.
3. Powerfists in every squad. Fine choice. However, you're very low on scoring power.
4. No uncloned heavy choices.

You keep talking about tournament armies like you know what you'll face beforehand. If someone runs a Land Raider (or a pair), you're boned. And yes, you'll see Land Raiders in a 1k army, mainly because people know there are folks out there (like you) who can't imagine squeezing 220 points of AV14 into 1,000 points. You absolutely NEED a means of dealing with AV14. What you do not need is a dakka predator, or a Vindicator, because those're the only ones in your army. Either run a pair of Vindicators, or a pair of Dakka Predators. You are mixing up the idea of versatility with watered-down effectiveness. In 40K, you need redundancy in a tournament setting -- you need multiple units which can perform the same role. If you do not have this, your major threats to the opponent's army will be singled out and neutered.

A better idea would be (in my opinion) a very bland one:

Daemon Prince: 150
-Wings
-Mark of Nurgle

7 Plague Marines: 206
-2 Flamers
-Rhino

7 Plague Marines: 206
-2 Flamers
-Rhino

7 Plague Marines: 216
-2 M.Guns
-Rhino

7 Plague Marines: 216
-2 M.Guns
-Rhino

Plenty of scoring bodies, tons of vehicles to overwhelm enemy antitank firepower, plenty of AV14-busting power, a Prince to support close-combat, and lots of flamers to bake hordes.

#15
Freakiq

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1. No Havoc Launchers.
2. No plasma. Plasma is awful in 5e. Abundant cover saves coupled with overheat chances (even if they're slim), combined with an inability to handle AV14. You'll do as much damage with a pair of meltaguns or flamers, combined with pistol shots and a full strength charge, if not more damage.
3. Powerfists in every squad. Fine choice. However, you're very low on scoring power.
4. No uncloned heavy choices.

You keep talking about tournament armies like you know what you'll face beforehand. If someone runs a Land Raider (or a pair), you're boned. And yes, you'll see Land Raiders in a 1k army, mainly because people know there are folks out there (like you) who can't imagine squeezing 220 points of AV14 into 1,000 points. You absolutely NEED a means of dealing with AV14. What you do not need is a dakka predator, or a Vindicator, because those're the only ones in your army. Either run a pair of Vindicators, or a pair of Dakka Predators. You are mixing up the idea of versatility with watered-down effectiveness. In 40K, you need redundancy in a tournament setting -- you need multiple units which can perform the same role. If you do not have this, your major threats to the opponent's army will be singled out and neutered.

A better idea would be (in my opinion) a very bland one:

Daemon Prince: 150
-Wings
-Mark of Nurgle

7 Plague Marines: 206
-2 Flamers
-Rhino

7 Plague Marines: 206
-2 Flamers
-Rhino

7 Plague Marines: 216
-2 M.Guns
-Rhino

7 Plague Marines: 216
-2 M.Guns
-Rhino

Plenty of scoring bodies, tons of vehicles to overwhelm enemy antitank firepower, plenty of AV14-busting power, a Prince to support close-combat, and lots of flamers to bake hordes.


As I said before it's a friendly tournament, there's only 18 people in it and I know them all which means I can be pretty sure there will be no Land Raiders. Even If there is I'll trust my daemon prince handle it.

I've thought about bringing a similar list to the one you posted but since it's a friendly tournament in a normally non-competative environment I don't think I'll be facing that hard opposition.

If I was expecting hardcore powergamer opposition I wouldn't be bringing my Death Guard in the first place.

#16
Zhukov

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Okay first off all to rely on a single prince to destroy a land raider is bad.
Second: whats wrong with deatguard in 1k? its one of the better choices in 1k.

And if its not real competative why bother with posting list for help in the first place? You do not seem to listen to me or Demetriiz (deathguard pro) in the first place, so I say just do what you want and ignore the comments from tournement players ;)

I'm open to messages if you want help or advice from me.

 

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#17
DemetriiTZ

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I sure wouldn't trust my meta to be 100% (or even 50%) certain with 18 people.. and I wouldn't bring anything besides nasty armies to any event I'm paying to play in. Why pay to lose?

In any case, yeah. Like Zhu said, you have our advice.. But, I mean, go with whatever you feel is fine. -shrug-

#18
Freakiq

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Okay first off all to rely on a single prince to destroy a land raider is bad.
Second: whats wrong with deatguard in 1k? its one of the better choices in 1k.

And if its not real competative why bother with posting list for help in the first place? You do not seem to listen to me or Demetriiz (deathguard pro) in the first place, so I say just do what you want and ignore the comments from tournement players ;)


Gee, it's not like I meant to offend you...

I should obviously have visited Demetriiz and studied his trophies and medals before disagreeing with him.


And contrary to what you say I do listen, like I said erlier I'm looking into getting some obliterators and I've already dropped the Plasmaguns in exchange for more flamers.

I'd rather not add more Plague Marines as it would limit my ability to any heavy support as well as aking my list boring.

As for the taking two of the same unit, I feel taking another vindicator in place of the predator would limit my ranged firepower while taking another predator would limit my ability to deal with MEQ's.

I could take 2 units of 2 obliterators but that would cause every antio tank weapon on the board to target my transports instead.

I sure wouldn't trust my meta to be 100% (or even 50%) certain with 18 people.. and I wouldn't bring anything besides nasty armies to any event I'm paying to play in. Why pay to lose?

In any case, yeah. Like Zhu said, you have our advice.. But, I mean, go with whatever you feel is fine. -shrug-


Ah, but it's free admission to the tournament as it has been sponsored by a local gaming company.

I'll consider your advice though as I still have a few weeks to prepare myself.

Edited by Freakiq, 28 April 2009 - 08:42 AM.


#19
Zhukov

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Okay first off all to rely on a single prince to destroy a land raider is bad.
Second: whats wrong with deatguard in 1k? its one of the better choices in 1k.

And if its not real competative why bother with posting list for help in the first place? You do not seem to listen to me or Demetriiz (deathguard pro) in the first place, so I say just do what you want and ignore the comments from tournement players <_<


Gee, it's not like I meant to offend you...

I should obviously have visited Demetriiz and studied his trophies and medals before disagreeing with him.


And contrary to what you say I do listen, like I said erlier I'm looking into getting some obliterators and I've already dropped the Plasmaguns in exchange for more flamers.

I'd rather not add more Plague Marines as it would limit my ability to any heavy support as well as aking my list boring.

As for the taking two of the same unit, I feel taking another vindicator in place of the predator would limit my ranged firepower while taking another predator would limit my ability to deal with MEQ's.

I could take 2 units of 2 obliterators but that would cause every antio tank weapon on the board to target my transports instead.



You nor anyone else I dont know can offend me, at least I cannot imagine being offended in this kinda cases.

But on-topic, it seems to me that you dont have a clue about what are good tournement armies nor what the enemy takes. Either you are playing with some guys (or girls) who dont have a clue either (or dont care) or you will be unpleasantly surprised.

With this there is nothing wrong, this kinda forums are for people like that! But thats why I dont get you, because you only seem to listen to advise which fits your own ideas if you get me. It would be odd to say that I'm a good player but I can say that Demetriiz is a good player, although I never met him. Why? Well the guide he wrote says enough in this case. Whats a good player? One that know what to do on tourney level play and what not to do.

And then I come to the things you said: About the Oblits. I think at least 70% of the good tournements build of chaos includes no more armour then rhinos coupled with Princes, Oblits and termies and plagues/berzerkers as troops choices. So do you really think that having rhinos as your only armour value is a bad thing? People targeting you rhinos and not your Oblits? Really thats has not to be a bad thing, because you Oblits kill stuff. Heck, my best lists includes only the things I mentioned and I've not lost a game yet.

Then onto taking 2 vindies over 1 vindi and a pred? Thats another commonly accepted and proofed thing: Spam stuff. 2 vindies is more then twice as good compared to only 1. 1 is easily negated by manoeuvring or just destroying it. 2 is a lot harder. This thing is also related to the thing I said before: rhinos, Oblits, princes, termies, plagues >>> all are kinda 'hard' to destroy targets. All need particular (mainly High S, low AP) fire to deal with them well. Sure Oblits die to small arms fire in the end too, but if the enemy deals with them in that way, then thats total ineffecient.

I hope I cleared some things up for you and I hope you benefit from my ramble.

And where is Jeske when you need him :D ?

Edited by Zhukov, 28 April 2009 - 09:34 AM.

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#20
Freakiq

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But on-topic, it seems to me that you dont have a clue about what are good tournement armies nor what the enemy takes. Either you are playing with some guys (or girls) who dont have a clue either (or dont care) or you will be unpleasantly surprised.

With this there is nothing wrong, this kinda forums are for people like that! But thats why I dont get you, because you only seem to listen to advise which fits your own ideas if you get me. It would be odd to say that I'm a good player but I can say that Demetriiz is a good player, although I never met him. Why? Well the guide he wrote says enough in this case. Whats a good player? One that know what to do on tourney level play and what not to do.

And then I come to the things you said: About the Oblits. I think at least 70% of the good tournements build of chaos includes no more armour then rhinos coupled with Princes, Oblits and termies and plagues/berzerkers as troops choices. So do you really think that having rhinos as your only armour value is a bad thing? People targeting you rhinos and not your Oblits? Really thats has not to be a bad thing, because you Oblits kill stuff. Heck, my best lists includes only the things I mentioned and I've not lost a game yet.

Then onto taking 2 vindies over 1 vindi and a pred? Thats another commonly accepted and proofed thing: Spam stuff. 2 vindies is more then twice as good compared to only 1. 1 is easily negated by manoeuvring or just destroying it. 2 is a lot harder. This thing is also related to the thing I said before: rhinos, Oblits, princes, termies, plagues >>> all are kinda 'hard' to destroy targets. All need particular (mainly High S, low AP) fire to deal with them well. Sure Oblits die to small arms fire in the end too, but if the enemy deals with them in that way, then thats total ineffecient.

I hope I cleared some things up for you and I hope you benefit from my ramble.

And where is Jeske when you need him <_< ?



So it would it be better taking two Vindicators than a unit of Obliterators and a Vindicator?

I know I should scrap the Predator but I'm still unsure whether to replace it with another Vindicator or Obliterators.

#21
Zhukov

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if you can get your hands on a second prince I would go for 2 princes and a pair of oblits. If not, well that one is quite hard. I think I prefer a pair of Oblits and 1 vindi over 2 vindies actually, just because Oblits are so nice.

So preferably: 2 princes and 2 oblits, or 1 prince and 4 oblits.

if not possible: 1 prince and 2 Oblits and 3 squads of plagues are good too!

if thats not what you want: well 1 prince and either 2 Oblits + 1 vindie or 2 vindies will do.

In that order.

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#22
Freakiq

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if you can get your hands on a second prince I would go for 2 princes and a pair of oblits. If not, well that one is quite hard. I think I prefer a pair of Oblits and 1 vindi over 2 vindies actually, just because Oblits are so nice.

So preferably: 2 princes and 2 oblits, or 1 prince and 4 oblits.

if not possible: 1 prince and 2 Oblits and 3 squads of plagues are good too!

if thats not what you want: well 1 prince and either 2 Oblits + 1 vindie or 2 vindies will do.

In that order.


I'd actually prefer the 2 oblits and 3 squads of marines if it wouldn't force me to cheap out on special weapons and champs so it'll probably be the 1 Vindi 2 oblits or the 2 vindies one.

I'll consider what I've learned from you and try to make the most out of what I'll have available before the tourney.


Thanks for your help. :D

#23
Zhukov

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You're wellcome, in a strange way I like helping with list/commenting on it. Dont know why actually. Well good luck with your tourney! Or at least have fun :P

I'm open to messages if you want help or advice from me.

 

You can ask me anything.


#24
Freakiq

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You're wellcome, in a strange way I like helping with list/commenting on it. Dont know why actually. Well good luck with your tourney! Or at least have fun :P


Don't you worry, most of them are fluffplayers, painters or beginners so I'll think I'll have a better time by not bringing the hardest list there is.

There arn't even any prices so it's all just a ploy to meet new people and get some more gaming going in the area.

#25
DemetriiTZ

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Makes more sense, if there's no entry fee and no prizes to be won. In any case, as Zhukov said, 1 Vindicator + 2 Obliterators is more versatile than paired Vindies. Paired Vindies are more durable and therefore deadly than a single Vindi, and can pie-plate stuff to death, but will struggle to inflict numerous wounds on a Monstrous Creature (or some other specific instance), while Obbies while shapeshift for the situation. But certainly don't take one Vindi and one Pred. I like the Obbies + Vindi, but I'd personally take double Vindicators, just because I hate using non-marked choices in a DG army.

1 Vindi + 2 Obbies or 2 Vindies are both fine choices. Good luck!

And man, I wish they handed out trophies and medals.. All I have is a bunch of boxed set prizes I'll probably never build.. -_-

Edited by DemetriiTZ, 28 April 2009 - 03:00 PM.