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That Emperor Guy, what was his deal...


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#26
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

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Er, Eldar still think the galaxy belongs to them. I don't know where this perception of friendly, helpful Eldar has sprung from, but I see it a lot now on the B&C. The Eldar are still out for themselves. They just seem 'friendly' because the Imperium is anti-Chaos (like them) and anti-Xenos (like them, except they hate Humans rather than themselves). So they'll play along, for now. They'll still try to screw us over as soon as it's safe for them to do so.


i think people tend to forget that eldard pushed ghazgull towards armageddon so he wouldnt hit an eldar world.

not exactly the actions of a friend if you ask me.

WLK
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#27
Grand Master Tyrak

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I think people tend to forget that eldard pushed ghazgull towards armageddon so he wouldnt hit an eldar world.


Yah, Eldrad Ulthran and his Ulthwe buddies.

I was sort of saving that as a knockout blow in case anyone tried to argue with me. ;)

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#28
Raulmichile

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i think people tend to forget that eldard pushed ghazgull towards armageddon so he wouldnt hit an eldar world.

not exactly the actions of a friend if you ask me.

WLK



Exactly. You won't inflict such "collateral damage" to your friend under any circumstance. Indeed, Eldrard could have still redirected the ork menace towards Armaggedon AND warn the hummies. If the Imperium pays any heed at Eldrad, that's their problem but you at least warned "your friend".
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#29
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

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I think people tend to forget that eldrad pushed ghazgull towards armageddon so he wouldnt hit an eldar world.


Yah, Eldrad Ulthran and his Ulthwe buddies.

I was sort of saving that as a knockout blow in case anyone tried to argue with me. ;)



oops, space wolf=no tact.

my bad.

WLK
Space Wolves are badasses that operate just barely within the rules. 13th Co. didn't even know there were rules applying to how badass they could be. DepthCharge on the Space Wolves

I'm so pleased that GW have gone to such great lengths to produce these awesome Space Wolves basing kits. Wraithwing on the Thousand Sons Rubic Marine release

"The Fell Hand is a name that has been passed on through out the Legion. When one warrior bearing it died, the name is left to be earned by another. Thus it was passed from Floki to Volund to Erik to Geigor. And then the tradition died, because Posted Image Bjorn got the name and proceeded to live for 10 Posted Image millenia." - Sagas of the Wolf Priests. Wispy

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#30
Prathios

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Er, Eldar still think the galaxy belongs to them. I don't know where this perception of friendly, helpful Eldar has sprung from, but I see it a lot now on the B&C. The Eldar are still out for themselves. They just seem 'friendly' because the Imperium is anti-Chaos (like them) and anti-Xenos (like them, except they hate Humans rather than themselves). So they'll play along, for now. They'll still try to screw us over as soon as it's safe for them to do so.


Well, the Emperor did present a serious challenge to the power of the Big Four when he walked among Humanity. I imagine they don't want him becoming that much of a threat again.
Then again, the Emperor is the only thing that has made the Big Four genuinely unite.


Actually that was my take on the Eldar sharing of the webway. Plus, the webway is not a small thing. Its beyond the size of anything that can be imagined. Entire worlds are hidden inside it. The Eldar could easily remain undetected and continue to use it almost as normal.

I do however think that the idea of "friendly" Eldar is silly, there is a huge "but" in here though. If they see it as a means to an end they would very easily let humanity use the webway. If they thought that it would advance the goal of defeating the powers of the warp they would jump on it in a heartbeat. Ulthwe would at any rate. But no, the Eldar would sacrifice the lives of billions of humans to save 1 of their own. They are arrogant jerks who keep forgetting they're directly responsible for the birth of a chaos god. I love em for it ;)

As to the second part I think that its hugely important when trying to gauge the Emperor's power both physical and metaphysical to look at the reaction of the warp gods. Khorne got along with others in order to defeat the Emperor... just think about that. Khorne, getting along with anything. Even Tzeentch was able to stop changing ways for ten minutes to approach a problem directly. If all four of them were genuinely afraid of him he had to have been a pretty big deal.

*edit* haha, I missed the part about Armageddon which i reference here as well. Looks like we're on the same page.
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#31
_Caesar_

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The only thing that throws me off about the webway is its limitations. Clearly the Emperor's webway project was of great importance as use of it would have reduced humanity's reliance on the warp, but I don't think it would have eliminated it. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are plenty of human worlds that do not posses a single webway portal. So, if the webway was supposed to be the secret weapon against Chaos, then it would have left thousands of human worlds isolated and defenseless. I don't think the Emperor would have accepted such a result as it would have weakened the Imperium, left billions of people vulnerable to the powers of the warp, and he would have failed at his millennia-long objective of saving humanity.

#32
Grand Master Tyrak

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The only thing that throws me off about the webway is its limitations. Clearly the Emperor's webway project was of great importance as use of it would have reduced humanity's reliance on the warp, but I don't think it would have eliminated it. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are plenty of human worlds that do not posses a single webway portal. So, if the webway was supposed to be the secret weapon against Chaos, then it would have left thousands of human worlds isolated and defenseless. I don't think the Emperor would have accepted such a result as it would have weakened the Imperium, left billions of people vulnerable to the powers of the warp, and he would have failed at his millennia-long objective of saving humanity.


I think building webway portals on Imperial worlds might have been a fairly logical step in getting it up and running. :HQ: If he can build one on Terra, why not elsewhere?

oops, space wolf=no tact.


Well, let's face it, when did a Space Wolf ever need a second punch? :lol:

I do however think that the idea of "friendly" Eldar is silly, there is a huge "but" in here though. If they see it as a means to an end they would very easily let humanity use the webway. If they thought that it would advance the goal of defeating the powers of the warp they would jump on it in a heartbeat. Ulthwe would at any rate. But no, the Eldar would sacrifice the lives of billions of humans to save 1 of their own.


Fair point. They've even let humans into the Black Library on occasion. Means to an end indeed.

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#33
Prathios

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slightly OT but is that sig comment from red dwarf? where is my exterminatus?
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#34
Grand Master Tyrak

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Prathios Posted Today, 09:09 PM
slightly OT but is that sig comment from red dwarf? where is my exterminatus?


Click the link in my sig. Grey Mage got there first, you'll have to provide a little more detail to claim yours. ;)

EDIT - spelling
RE-EDIT - can't spell 'spelling'. ;)

Edited by Grand Master Tyrak, 29 April 2009 - 08:06 PM.

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#35
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You mention Magnus not knowing about Chaos. But, in 'Collected Visions' it is clearly explained that, when the Emperor realises how powerful a psyker Magnus is, he tells him all about the warp. From how its written he does this during the first meetings after Magnus is found, making them the only Imperials who know the full truth about Chaos. But Magnus has already started dabbing in sorcery, Tzeentch allowing him to see what power could be gained through the warp.
After it becomes known that Magnus is still dabbling in things his dad doesn't like, he is told again, in no uncertain terms, to stop it or Magnus and his Legion will be smashed and expunged from Imperial history.

GFP

#36
Prathios

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You mention Magnus not knowing about Chaos. But, in 'Collected Visions' it is clearly explained that, when the Emperor realises how powerful a psyker Magnus is, he tells him all about the warp. From how its written he does this during the first meetings after Magnus is found, making them the only Imperials who know the full truth about Chaos. But Magnus has already started dabbing in sorcery, Tzeentch allowing him to see what power could be gained through the warp.
After it becomes known that Magnus is still dabbling in things his dad doesn't like, he is told again, in no uncertain terms, to stop it or Magnus and his Legion will be smashed and expunged from Imperial history.

GFP


Yes, but if he had been told before he had taken his first steps it would have again made a huge difference. Its like imagine someone telling an alcoholic that drinking can get you drunk and is bad after hes had 10,000 drinks. It doesn't help at that point, but had the emperor explained it all before hand Magnus would never have set foot down that path to begin with.
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#37
_Caesar_

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The only thing that throws me off about the webway is its limitations. Clearly the Emperor's webway project was of great importance as use of it would have reduced humanity's reliance on the warp, but I don't think it would have eliminated it. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are plenty of human worlds that do not posses a single webway portal. So, if the webway was supposed to be the secret weapon against Chaos, then it would have left thousands of human worlds isolated and defenseless. I don't think the Emperor would have accepted such a result as it would have weakened the Imperium, left billions of people vulnerable to the powers of the warp, and he would have failed at his millennia-long objective of saving humanity.


I think building webway portals on Imperial worlds might have been a fairly logical step in getting it up and running. :tu: If he can build one on Terra, why not elsewhere?


I don't think it would be that easy though. If I recall correctly, the Imperial webway had one critical issue: it lacked the inherent warp protection of the Eldar webway, and the Emperor had to expend his own power to give his portal that protection (which, as we all know, was breeched by Magnus). I suppose other psykers could have been used in some fashion to create similar barriers, but this would be a gigantic risk and would still force the Imperium to rely on the warp. I guess the question then becomes, could the Emperor have figured out how to bestow Imperial webway gates with the same protection as those of the Eldar? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like he was preparing for that possibility.

#38
Prathios

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The only thing that throws me off about the webway is its limitations. Clearly the Emperor's webway project was of great importance as use of it would have reduced humanity's reliance on the warp, but I don't think it would have eliminated it. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but there are plenty of human worlds that do not posses a single webway portal. So, if the webway was supposed to be the secret weapon against Chaos, then it would have left thousands of human worlds isolated and defenseless. I don't think the Emperor would have accepted such a result as it would have weakened the Imperium, left billions of people vulnerable to the powers of the warp, and he would have failed at his millennia-long objective of saving humanity.


I think building webway portals on Imperial worlds might have been a fairly logical step in getting it up and running. -_- If he can build one on Terra, why not elsewhere?


I don't think it would be that easy though. If I recall correctly, the Imperial webway had one critical issue: it lacked the inherent warp protection of the Eldar webway, and the Emperor had to expend his own power to give his portal that protection (which, as we all know, was breeched by Magnus). I suppose other psykers could have been used in some fashion to create similar barriers, but this would be a gigantic risk and would still force the Imperium to rely on the warp. I guess the question then becomes, could the Emperor have figured out how to bestow Imperial webway gates with the same protection as those of the Eldar? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like he was preparing for that possibility.


Just one thing you might not be thinking about here. Based on the fact that we know that he guided humanity towards 1 goal for almost 40,000 years don't you think he had a pretty good plan figured out or do you think those last few he was just shooting from the hip? What sounds more plausible? Honestly if it was worth ignoring his own son bringing half the space fleet home to wreck it I think whatever he had planned worked. Give the guy some credit, he did have the void dragon chained up on mars after all.
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#39
Important

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Now this is the story all about how
My life got flipped, turned upside down
And Id like to take a minute so just sit right there
and I'll tell you the story
how I became the god of mandkind in a chair

In west Anatolia born and raised
In the solitary where I spent most of my days
having crusade, retreiving my sons, relaxing all cool
And warping between the stars outside of our hood
When a couple of gods said were up in no good
Started making trouble in my universe
I got in one little fight with horus and my sons got scared
And said you're moving with your Custodes Guards in Terra

I whistled for a space cruiser and when it came near horus flagship
it said "For the Emperor" and a bolter in the mirror
If anything I could say that this ship was rare
But I thought now forget it, YO home to Terra there!

I stopped right at a golden chair about seven or eight
and I yelled to the admiral yo, fight some traitors see you later
Looked at my kingdom I was finally there
To settle my throne as the god of mankind
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#40
Magua

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Important has won the thread.

#41
Prathios

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Now this is the story all about how
My life got flipped, turned upside down
And Id like to take a minute so just sit right there
and I'll tell you the story
how I became the god of mandkind in a chair

In west Anatolia born and raised
In the solitary where I spent most of my days
having crusade, retreiving my sons, relaxing all cool
And warping between the stars outside of our hood
When a couple of gods said were up in no good
Started making trouble in my universe
I got in one little fight with horus and my sons got scared
And said you're moving with your Custodes Guards in Terra

I whistled for a space cruiser and when it came near horus flagship
it said "For the Emperor" and a bolter in the mirror
If anything I could say that this ship was rare
But I thought now forget it, YO home to Terra there!

I stopped right at a golden chair about seven or eight
and I yelled to the admiral yo, fight some traitors see you later
Looked at my kingdom I was finally there
To settle my throne as the god of mankind

:P Will Smith just had a heart attack.
Gaming Ethic by Sunderheart Read it please!
Prathios, "What about the Nemesis Force Market?"
Brother Ramses, "Limited Supply, High Demand."

#42
_Caesar_

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Just one thing you might not be thinking about here. Based on the fact that we know that he guided humanity towards 1 goal for almost 40,000 years don't you think he had a pretty good plan figured out or do you think those last few he was just shooting from the hip? What sounds more plausible? Honestly if it was worth ignoring his own son bringing half the space fleet home to wreck it I think whatever he had planned worked. Give the guy some credit, he did have the void dragon chained up on mars after all.


Oh, I definitely think he had a plan as indicated in my initial post in this thread, I just don't know where the webway fits into the plan. Based on what I've read regarding the Imperial webway there were some serious challenges that the Emperor would have had to overcome in order for such a project to accomplish the Emperor's supposed objective (namely the webway replacing warp travel/usage). I've pointed out some of those challenges and nothing that I've read seems to indicate that the Emperor was prepared to overcome (or was even aware of) those challenges. So there are three possibilities: A) the Emperor was, in fact, largely ignorant when it came to the webway. B ) the Emperor was not ignorant when it came to the webway but had a different purpose for it than is frequently stated, as evidenced by his seeming lack of preparation for the aforementioned challenges/limitations involved with using the webway. C) the fluff regarding the webway is very scarce and lacks enough detail to really answer the questions I've posed. The most obvious (and likely) answer is "C," but I wouldn't put it past the GW loreheads to surprise us with "B."

In the end I'm just not buying that the webway is the coup de grâs that it's supposed to be. There are too many, potentially catastrophic, variables that are unaccounted for. One of them opened it to demons. B)


Important... :)

#43
lee265

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B] maybe? no C], no B] well probably B)
I once heard the theory that he built the webway to another galaxy anwhen it collapsed the missing legions got stuck there and they were removed to cover his stupidity so theat the high lords could better control the population.

Crouches behind storm shield for protection when I get told this is silly by my Chaplain.

Edited by lee265, 01 May 2009 - 12:41 AM.


#44
sgtNACHO

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I think that if GW did bring back the Emperor, the game would be officially over!

Think of it
Thats like having Chuck Norris as a Special Char.

Thats like the Master Chief taking off his mask

Thats like any story that involves some majestic hero (who happens to be lion) coming out of nowhere in the last stand for good. and jumping on the situation (or on a white chick who likes ice!) and defeating it, and saving the day!


40k is too dark, grim, and saddening to bring the Emperor back. There would be rejoice from the entirety of the Imperium, men would reveille in the return of their god, supermen would drink large flasks in honor of their returned father,lord,and leader. Thats too nice! We can't have Chaos die, simply because now all Chaos players get pissed and quit because GW ganked 'em.

Then they'll throw in th Emperor as a special Char. for any Imperial army who has stats XXXXXXXXX,Unbeatable


I think that anyone who thinks the Emperor is officially coming back and leading the fight again, also wants Santa to come down their chimney, Darth Vader to come back to life, or the Chief to remove his helmet...Just isn't gonna happen



Oh, and I think the Emperor would've seen Horus' treachery before,if he didn't A)get caught up in his work, and :) have to deal with a bunch of youngins runnin his universe!
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#45
Prathios

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I think that if GW did bring back the Emperor, the game would be officially over!

Think of it
Thats like having Chuck Norris as a Special Char.

Thats like the Master Chief taking off his mask

Thats like any story that involves some majestic hero (who happens to be lion) coming out of nowhere in the last stand for good. and jumping on the situation (or on a white chick who likes ice!) and defeating it, and saving the day!


40k is too dark, grim, and saddening to bring the Emperor back. There would be rejoice from the entirety of the Imperium, men would reveille in the return of their god, supermen would drink large flasks in honor of their returned father,lord,and leader. Thats too nice! We can't have Chaos die, simply because now all Chaos players get pissed and quit because GW ganked 'em.

Then they'll throw in th Emperor as a special Char. for any Imperial army who has stats XXXXXXXXX,Unbeatable


I think that anyone who thinks the Emperor is officially coming back and leading the fight again, also wants Santa to come down their chimney, Darth Vader to come back to life, or the Chief to remove his helmet...Just isn't gonna happen



Oh, and I think the Emperor would've seen Horus' treachery before,if he didn't A)get caught up in his work, and ^_^ have to deal with a bunch of youngins runnin his universe!


Ok all the Chuck Norris, Halo, and Star Wars references aside... DO NOT, mock C.S. Lewis. Or you will pay the penalty. All that you hold dear as a nerd you owe to him and Tolkien. The Lewis is to be revered. Now if you have any relevant comments to add to the thread they are welcome, but I think everyone understands that in this capacity the Emperor would be difficult to bring back for gaming purposes (but not impossible I have some pretty good ways of bringing back without upsetting the game balance too much.)

Now just tell Aslan you're sorry and everything will be ok. Lion Jesus is a forgiving son of God. :D
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#46
Sons of Horus

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The emperor isn't coming back :D

Kill for the living! Kill for the dead!


#47
lee265

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The emperor isn't coming back :ph34r:

From a marine whom thinks his primarch should be Emperor Instead of BOB.
Also is so coming back, just not untill GW/BL need more money ;)

#48
Grand Master Tyrak

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Sons of Horus Posted Today, 07:12 AM
The emperor isn't coming back :D


You're supposed to be making sure of that. Until you've done that, keep quiet and get back to work! :tu:

"Be an Inquisition informer, betray your friends and family - Fabulous Prizes to be Won!"


#49
Prathios

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I rather hope he does, at its present state I think the 40k verse is in danger of over-playing the dark humanities in danger, no hope scenario. Everything in the Imperium is crumbling, falling back, or getting wiped out. As it stands now with the 13th crusade and the nids and necrons, the throne failing and what not GW can hardly justify something amazingly drastic has to happen or 7 codices will become irrelevant with the Imperium having been destroyed. They have set up this situation on a knife edge and humanity needs something drastic to happen. I can think of 1 thing that would help...
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Brother Ramses, "Limited Supply, High Demand."

#50
Important

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I would like to see a new hero emerge from all this in the Imperium. Not a Space marine but rather an Imperial Guard. A Governor or something. A normal general that does something amazing like drive back a tyranid hive fleet with superior tactics for the first time ever. Put the 13th crusade to an halt.

I think that would be the coolest ever, because now, it's mostly the space marines that is the only thing not making the imperium getting over run from every corner of the galaxy. I want to see some Imperial guard hardcore action and ofcourse they would get back up from most SM chapters. But for once let a normal or more a tactical genius from the IG handle it and make the Imperium shine a little bit once again.
"I must say, the way the Ultramarine on the cover of the new SM Codex is gunning down the Chaos Marine strikes me as extra contemptuous. As if he's saying, nice Codex loser. *BANG*"