Ferrata Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Ritual of Dominance: This is the final ritual before becoming receiving the geneseed and becoming a Dragoon. Each boy is given a young girl that has been taken captive. They are responsible for breaking her will and making her a productive part of the Dragoon force. I presume this is the line in question. If it is so objectionable, I can change it. But if I do, I'll have to petition for all Chapters to get rid of their serfs as well. You can't really say my marines are so wrong, simply because I put the word girl in the mix. We are no better or worse then any other chapter. Changing it, without a suitable replacement, will greatly reduce the feel of the Dragoons. I disagree with two points here, first about Serfs and secondly about the reduction in feeling. Serfs are not slaves more servants, maybe a few chapters might treat them as such, but to a majority of chapters they are servants. Servitors, now they are slaves but only slightly further than robots would be. As for the second part, I actually feel it detracts from the chapter in a different way to what A.Rex mentioned. You've already stated that the chapter sees humans as no better then aliens, scum etc. These boys are attempting to become Space Marines, so being able to break the will of a young human girl would be little more impressive than me crushing a snail to prove my might. It seems counter to the chapters beliefs, they want to think they are better but part of their right is to break the will of something lesser. Those who believe they are truely better do not feel the need to crush those that low, for they are much above it. I would suggest that it is the term 'young girl'. Seeing as recruits are between 10 and 18, probably under 14 depending on the time of this ritual, the young girl must be no more than 16 for her to be beaten by the youngster. The sexual conatations of the statement really imply that part of the 'breaking' is sexual, and with people of such a young age involved it really sparks of certain moral points. With todays society as it is, I do think it retracts from the chapter in the way A.Rex mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Firstly, I never use the term 'sexually' in any of the fluff, its you guys who are reading that into it. Makes me think bad things about you guys on that point. But we all have our crosses to bear I guess. Young girls are used for the same reasons young boys are, they are more resilant, and easier to mold into what you need .... be it space marines or slaves. Secondly, is torturing and killing young boys any better? No. In the modern world where equality is the word of the day, I'd have thought better of open minded adults. And I really think you need to reconsider the status of serfs. They own nothing, do whatever work their master commands ... sounds like slavery to me. Thirdly, the only reason I used 'young girls' is because I thought they were the only lesser beings that the chapter would see as a reasonable fit to be allowed in the fleet at all. I can't have my marines running the ships ... there's just not enough of them. Lastly, I'll change it ... but it'll take me a bit to come up with something suitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Firstly, I never use the term 'sexually' in any of the fluff, its you guys who are reading that into it. Makes me think bad things about you guys on that point. But we all have our crosses to bear I guess. Young girls are used for the same reasons young boys are, they are more resilant, and easier to mold into what you need .... be it space marines or slaves. I disagree, in the modern world dominance does have many sexual attachments, especially in reference to females. This in addition to the fact that sex is often used to 'break' woman, both in the past and unfortunately in more modern times, makes the whole thing come off with a sexual vibe. Secondly, is torturing and killing young boys any better? No. In the modern world where equality is the word of the day, I'd have thought better of open minded adults. And I really think you need to reconsider the status of serfs. They own nothing, do whatever work their master commands ... sounds like slavery to me. Well yes given the context of the universe it is set in. In the "Grim Dark Future" of war, war and more war, young boys being killed fits more than young girls being 'dominated'. Similarly wuth Serfs, it is a matter of context. When millions die in a single battle and all must do their part to help keep the Imperium alive, the grimness of Serfs seems more fitting. If you were setting something in the modern day, then Serfs would seem a hell of a lot worse. Finally, this last line comes as a Moderator not a poster, stop making personal hits. "Makes me think bad things about you guys on that point" and "I'd have thought better of open minded adults." are not acceptable comments as neither me nor Aurelius had mentioned anything about you just the chapter. I would ask you nicely to make sure your comments remain civili and chapter-based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 I agree the comments may have been in poor taste, but when my Chapter was called the "wifebeater Chapter" I was offended and upset. I'll try to control myself from now on, I just hope others do as well. Status of females within the fleet has changed (slightly since I still see serfs as slaves) and Rituals have been changed to better reflect the movie from which I gained the idea. I hope its more acceptable now. Any other questions, concerns or ideas for this Chapter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Now that you've changed it, I know the film you are talking about (I believed it was called Soldier, but that is besides the point). Personally, I would change the names to; The Ritual of Ice, The Ritual of Fire and The Ritual of Death being the Ritual of Desens., Pain and Battle respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 Now that you've changed it, I know the film you are talking about (I believed it was called Soldier, but that is besides the point). Personally, I would change the names to; The Ritual of Ice, The Ritual of Fire and The Ritual of Death being the Ritual of Desens., Pain and Battle respectively. I like those, thanks change made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 As for the order of the rituals, I would see the Ritual of Death the worst. Depending on the time scale of these rituals, I would have that one last. But, if these are meant to be across the recruitment time up to the point of Power Armour then killing half your recruits would be very wasteful of gene-seed/resources. If this was done during the early stages (before the insertation of gene-seed) then it would be fine. The only problem is, how do you make sure you aren't killing off the second strongest recruit by pairing him against the strongest and similarly how do you make sure you aren't getting the second worst recruit by pairing him against the worst recruit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 As for the order of the rituals, I would see the Ritual of Death the worst. Depending on the time scale of these rituals, I would have that one last. But, if these are meant to be across the recruitment time up to the point of Power Armour then killing half your recruits would be very wasteful of gene-seed/resources. If this was done during the early stages (before the insertation of gene-seed) then it would be fine. The only problem is, how do you make sure you aren't killing off the second strongest recruit by pairing him against the strongest and similarly how do you make sure you aren't getting the second worst recruit by pairing him against the worst recruit? Ritual of Ice is started quickly after they are taken and lasts until they become marines. Ritual of Death would fall after all those that are found to be lacking are disposed of, but before the implantation process begins. So only fit, strong boys with a high chance to become Dragoons would remain. There will be a chance of the 2nd best being killed no matter how its done, but by this time there should be no worst left to endure the ritual .... so all should be pretty equal at this point. Ritual of Fire happens just before the final implants are made, so these boys are mostly marines at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurelius Rex Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 First up, I am sorry if you took the previous post as a personal attack. It was not intended to be taken as such, instead it was an examination of an aspect of your chapter which I found to be in extremely poor taste in the context of real life events, far beyond the family-oriented scope of what was permissable at the B&C, and that it added nothing positive to the chapter's character. For this reason I even mentioned a positive suggestion that they 'tame' a wild beast instead - an actual challenge - so I hoped that it was not just being negative for its own sake. With regards to saying they came over as the 'Wifebeater Chapter', I apologise. It was a loaded phrase that I should have phrased better, but I completely stand by the intent. You had previously been called on the section earlier in the thread and seemed to have dismissed the problems people had with it completely. I wanted to draw attention to it in a way that couldn't be so glibly glossed over, but it seems that first thing on a sunday morning my brain misjudged it a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 First up, I am sorry if you took the previous post as a personal attack. It was not intended to be taken as such, instead it was an examination of an aspect of your chapter which I found to be in extremely poor taste in the context of real life events, far beyond the family-oriented scope of what was permissable at the B&C, and that it added nothing positive to the chapter's character. For this reason I even mentioned a positive suggestion that they 'tame' a wild beast instead - an actual challenge - so I hoped that it was not just being negative for its own sake. With regards to saying they came over as the 'Wifebeater Chapter', I apologise. It was a loaded phrase that I should have phrased better, but I completely stand by the intent. You had previously been called on the section earlier in the thread and seemed to have dismissed the problems people had with it completely. I wanted to draw attention to it in a way that couldn't be so glibly glossed over, but it seems that first thing on a sunday morning my brain misjudged it a bit. I hope we can both move on with no hard feelings. I want to see the Iron Dragoons and White Hand Disciples become part of this community. And I've purposely made them as completely opposite as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 I did some rearranging and expanding of articles, up to over 1750 wordcount .... any more suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 The small contingent of Imperial Guards were sorely outnumbered and if not for the intervention of the Dragoons, Jucha would have surely fallen to chaos. Firstly guardsmen that are outnumbered by chaos space marines would lose instantly. Try "sorely pressed". Secondly, I'm glad you got rid of that will breaking bit, the rites make much more sense the way they are now. Thirdly, you lack a few whys. Why did the chapter have so many heavy weapons at its disposal despite being young, why are only women allowed as serfs, why did they organize themselves as they did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 fixed, over 1800 wordcount now. Organization is current, even a Space Marine Chapter from the last founding is a few hundred years old now ... or am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Chapter Master Karn, an ex-Predator commander, had always believed in the power of armored assaults and the Chapter's first encounter on Jucha found his chapter short in many ways. He quickly reorganized the Dragoons and petitioned the Adeptus Mechanicus for more heavy arms to counter this shortcoming. You've solved a why only to raise another, why would the Mechanicus oblige? There are many chapters out there who'd want more tanks, so why would the Iron Dragoons get them? It's an avenue worth exploring, I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 As is the Dragoons actually have less Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators and possibly Land Raiders (no number for them listed) then the Ultramarines (Codex: 5th Edition) ... so the Dragoons were only asking to come up to strength really. So its possible that the only number of vehicles in excess would be the Land Raiders and I haven't figured out the number the Dragoons have yet. Is that okay? Are there any more concerns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Besides the fact that the article needs a fair bit more detail, not much. Unfortunately, that's something we can't help you with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Well I"m glad to hear its good ... mostly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Actually, now that I've give it a bit of thought, I might be able to give you some ideas. While your chapter might still have less armor that the Ultramarines, they'd still be quite low on the shipping priority list of the Mechanicus, heavy losses during a heroic fight wouldn't impress the emotionless folks that make up the Machine Cult. Ergo, if they got tanks quite quickly could mean that they either did a favor for the Mechanicus or promised to do one once it arises, it could be an avenue worth exploring. What I'm trying to say is that you should think of quirks to add that make your chapter unique, then give reason for those quirks. Then those reasons might require reasoning themselves until you reach something basic that no longer requires explaining. Allow me to give you an example . My own pride an joy chapter are good friends with the Inquisition, why? Because they hate the Mechanicus, why? Because they are faithless, why? Because the Age of Apostasy made them think faith is overrated, why? Because their faith was already shaken by their defense of their own homeworld. This example is all the better as the quirk/why bit can work both ways, the new quirk might become reason for another quirk down the road. The ferry first thing I wanted to explain was their faithlessness, the Mechanicus hate and Inquisition friendship were build upon that. Try applying this to your chapter and see how it works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 I actually have something the AdMech's may want. Urdesh (where the Dragoons got gear from) actually provided all the gear for the Sabbat Worlds Crusade ... but it would mean putting my chapter in an existing campaign. Would that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Depends, I'm not very familiar with the Sabbat Words Crusade and I don't know how well documented it is. If it's well documented, then you might not wish to interfere, if it's not, like the Macharian Heresy, then go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 I get most of my info from here. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sabbat_worlds_crusade Looks like it was documented in "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" Background Book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Seems quite airtight. There is little mention of space marines and all chapters seem to be named. I'd find some other campaign to insert the chapter into. There is no reason you can't invent a crusade of your own though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Well it does say 6 Space Marine Chapters were involved but only lists 4. I guess I'll come up with something they need done to support while that is going on. Or we could simply run supplies, not the most glamerous of jobs but it was needed I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telveryon Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Or we could simply run supplies, not the most glamerous of jobs but it was needed I guess. :P Ummm.... Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just suggest that your overly arrogant chapter would run errands like ammo delivery? If that's the case, you should go to the nearest corner and start paying penance! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 I'm so .... so sorry :P Besides, we're not arrogant ... we just hate anything that isn't Space Marine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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