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IA: The Black Friars


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#1
Apothete

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Homeworld:


W
hile technically fleet based and never tied to any single planet, the Black Friars were shaped by the events that occurred at the planet they named Kolrad in honor of the single loyal tribe they discovered beneath its surface.

The dense and incredible inhospitable planet now known as Kolrad was an incubator for only the hardiest and most stubborn forms of life. What little vegetation managed to survive on the deeply irradiated and sun-scoured surface was intensely poisonous, while the scarce supplies of water were unfailingly contagious stews of brackish sludge that had been contaminated with untold bacteria and parasites. Wherever the screaming winds carved a hollow, acidic lichens and chemovoric flora cluster about the oases that shelter in the lees that hide them from the unbearable sun, all of which provide convenient cover for the voracious and highly adapted fauna. Categorical study of life on the surface would be nigh impossible, thanks in no small part to generational mutation and swift die-offs, to say nothing of the microclimates that sprang up around each of the bodies of water. The entire environment of the planet was a lethal game of one-upsmanship that often brought death.

When they arrived, the Chapter found no signs of human inhabitation whatsoever, but expeditions below the surface soon uncovered a small but thriving population of exiles. The vast majority of the underworlders were a misshapen, barbaric parody of Imperial society, where the strongest of the tribes would protect those who slaved within their caverns against the predation of other tribes while thinking nothing of casual brutality and atrocities against those same chattels. Many of them would risk journeys to the surface to slay or break beasts for their own use, though the peoples who consumed surface-creature flesh brought down below shared in the corruption. By contrast, the true Kolradi themselves were remarkably free of mutation or heresy, merely backwards by Imperial standards.

Alone amongst these apostate, immoral tribes, the Kolradi practiced a primitive feudalism that granted the weaker amongst their number far more humane treatment than their counterparts. They were obviously the true descendents of the lost scholar-monks who had come to the planet for isolation and peace, but who had found instead the embodiment of marrying their philosophy to the warrior spirit of the Emperor. Rallying the soldiers of the tribe and leading them in a crusade to cleanse the nearest regions of the warren-like underground, the Chapter had cemented their image as wrathful angels that brought fire and death to the debased cultists.

Soon after, the Crusade took on a life of its own as the inspired populace adapted tactics shown by their betters and adapted them to their much more primitive weaponry, fighting valiantly even through the swarming death that was the later days of the unexplained curse. Though no contact was attempted with the Kolradi or the missionaries before the final days of their existence, the Black Friars are content in believing that they would have approved of the assumption that all Imperial citizens should be prepared to die at any time. That they would perish in the flames of the Emperor's most holy Light is merely a fitting coda to a life of warring in His name, ensuring their flesh could not be debased after their passing.

Now a lifeless and nearly airless dead world, Kolrad's sepulchral silence and extreme distance from the Imperium's core suits its masters perfectly. They have no need of food nor any concern for the radiation of its star. Only its blinding, eternal reminder of His watchful gaze seems to matter to them at all.


Combat Doctrine:


G
iven the difficulties faced by a Chapter which has no access to prominent Imperial supply lines, the Black Friars make do with what they can either take by force or scavenge and reconescrate to their own purposes. They have absolutely no fear of death and thus will deploy in formations that would be considered suicidal by tacticians who are concerned with the mortality of their troops, though this is tempered somewhat by the knowledge that they will not return immediately if their mortal shell is rendered incapable of fighting.

As a consequence of their lack of vehicular support, the Black Friars fight almost completely on foot and rely on Devestators extensively to provide the heavier punch that other Chapters might gain from tanks. The Chapter does maintain a large number of jump packs and their formative experience is in close-range combat under confined conditions, leading them to prefer assaulting enemy strongpoints and breaching defenses rather than standing off at range. In the time since the Theosis, the Friars have cultivated methods of hunting armored vehicles that allow them to make use of their unusual nature and the focus of their training, engaging at extremely close range while Brothers provide misidirection and distraction.


Organization:


N
ot every Brother survived the arcane and mysterious process by which the Chapter reached its current state, and there is no flesh from which to draw progenoids that recruits may be created anew. The remaining Brothers number in the high five hundreds, organized into five Commandries under the leadership of a Knight Prior, who is assisted by two Knights Praxis that fulfill the role of a Chaplain in more traditional Chapters, and the Knights Preceptor who guide each squad in battle.


Beliefs:





Gene-Seed:





Battlecry :

Edited by Apothete, 14 July 2009 - 08:15 PM.

You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#2
Apothete

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I'm home sick today and decided to get a little work done on a few ideas I've been holding onto, so here's a portion of what I told Telveryon I would eventually do.

I have the Beliefs section mostly blocked out in my head but I need to take a break from sitting in front of the screen and writing for a little bit. The Chapter stems from some of my original ideas for the Exonerators, mixed with elements of my discussions with him about the Will of the Lost and skeletal Marines in general, and some attempts to come up with something interesting that could happen to a Cursed Founding Chapter.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#3
DarkGuard

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Looks like a good piece of work so far, and the idea is a good one. I particularly like the conversion of the Marines from loyalists to semi-loyalists, but I must raise doubts over the Chaplains.

Unthinking in their horror at what they first saw as corruption of their blessed physique, the Chaplains ordered the plasma conduits to be reopened so that they would burn away the monsters within. It was only with seconds to spare that they recanted the order, each of them seized by a gestalt vision of the Chapter as it would come to exist, their undying devotion to the Emperor leading them in a grand Crusade that would see the corrupt, bloated machine of the outer reaches hammered back into a fitting instrument for His will. No more would they need the pain glove or other means of excoriating themselves, instead they would suffer His pain unending, their every moment of existence a torment that would fell lesser men while reminding them that He has never had respite. Removed from the demands of the body without a need to recruit anew, the Chapter could focus their every waking moment to purifying the stars.


Now I would believe that most Chaplains would have their souls guarded, or attempt to shake off such visions. I believe that such visions would mean there is some latent, uncontrolled psychic tendencies. This change in the Chaplain's and the Chapter's beliefs seems very sudden and not entirely convincing, like Sarpedon and the Soul Drinkers (Ben Counter again I know but I love the Soul Drinkers :evil:). It seems a bit like a vision from a Chaos as much as one from the Emperor. Anyway, I just wonder how this turn in the Chapter's philosophy and fate would be affected if the Chaplains didn't recant the order, and allowed those Marines to be blasted by the plasma conduits. Then, with more of their Battle Brothers falling to this 'condition', the Chaplains, unable to contain it, meditate and pray to the Emperor, receiving more of these visions, and gradually the Chapter falls into this state of automation. Just another idea, as I feel you could play off a bit from having a slow 'demise' if it were, although I wouldn't want to use that word. Sorry if these ideas may not be expressed too well, teaches me for posting quite late!

Overall I like the idea, and I feel you could do a lot with this Chapter. I feel that there is certainly scope for more development and individualisation with a Chapter that is seperate from the Imperium but not fully under the grasp of Chaos, and find such Chapters intriguing. I'll be looking forward to hearing more about this Chapter.
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#4
Apothete

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Looks like a good piece of work so far, and the idea is a good one. I particularly like the conversion of the Marines from loyalists to semi-loyalists, but I must raise doubts over the Chaplains.


Yeah, I'm sure that I'm not done with them yet.

The actual transformation is something that I think I'm going to need to spend some more time to effectively explain, especially since it's going to involve trying to subtly hint at things I would rather not make explicit.

Now I would believe that most Chaplains would have their souls guarded, or attempt to shake off such visions. I believe that such visions would mean there is some latent, uncontrolled psychic tendencies. This change in the Chaplain's and the Chapter's beliefs seems very sudden and not entirely convincing, like Sarpedon and the Soul Drinkers (Ben Counter again I know but I love the Soul Drinkers :evil:). It seems a bit like a vision from a Chaos as much as one from the Emperor.


I doubt you ever read the discussion between Telveryon and I when he was working on the Will of the Lost, but one of the things that came up was the way that I could only justify such a thing happening if it was at least somewhat touched by the Ruinous Powers. The Chapter as a whole is obvious unfinished but the transition point is something I'm going to have to work very carefully on, because I want it to be plausible while also being just a touch on the shocking side. The current version is nothing more than getting the bare-bones (ha ha!) thoughts down so that I can stop worrying about forgetting the basic themes.

Anyway, I just wonder how this turn in the Chapter's philosophy and fate would be affected if the Chaplains didn't recant the order, and allowed those Marines to be blasted by the plasma conduits. Then, with more of their Battle Brothers falling to this 'condition', the Chaplains, unable to contain it, meditate and pray to the Emperor, receiving more of these visions, and gradually the Chapter falls into this state of automation. Just another idea, as I feel you could play off a bit from having a slow 'demise' if it were, although I wouldn't want to use that word.


That's actually the way I intended to take things on further revision, believe it or not. I just needed to get my thoughts into a coherent form and the way that they came out this time was simpler, though certainly not the final form that they're likely to take. I wanted to hang the framework and then adjust after the fact.

Overall I like the idea, and I feel you could do a lot with this Chapter. I feel that there is certainly scope for more development and individualisation with a Chapter that is seperate from the Imperium but not fully under the grasp of Chaos, and find such Chapters intriguing. I'll be looking forward to hearing more about this Chapter.


Thanks for the encouragement, and I'll be putting more effort into them very soon.

I, too, have a weak spot for those who exist on the boundaries rather than at the extremes.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#5
DarkGuard

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I doubt you ever read the discussion between Telveryon and I when he was working on the Will of the Lost, but one of the things that came up was the way that I could only justify such a thing happening if it was at least somewhat touched by the Ruinous Powers. The Chapter as a whole is obvious unfinished but the transition point is something I'm going to have to work very carefully on, because I want it to be plausible while also being just a touch on the shocking side. The current version is nothing more than getting the bare-bones (ha ha!) thoughts down so that I can stop worrying about forgetting the basic themes.


I certainly missed that discussion but if I find it I will read it, it may help me understand more about the turning point of the Chapter. All I can say is that you'll have to be careful when using the Ruinous Powers if you want to keep your Chapter faithful to the Emperor. Certainly with Dorn's geneseed you have the stubborness and tenancity required to stick to the Imperium's ideals while being hounded by the Ruinous Powers and the Imperium itself.

That's actually the way I intended to take things on further revision, believe it or not. I just needed to get my thoughts into a coherent form and the way that they came out this time was simpler, though certainly not the final form that they're likely to take. I wanted to hang the framework and then adjust after the fact.


Fair enough, I look forward to reading more about your Chapter's transformation, I feel that this would perhaps be one of the most interesting facets of your Chapter, I wish you every luck with it.

One other point to raise. Is your Chapter going to be officially declared Excommunicate Traitoris by the Imperium? It seems to be like your Chapter is sticking by the Emperor and carrying out his work, but after the transformation of the Chapter, which the Imperium will name as mutations, and the Black Friars assault on its Imperial Envoy, I'd imagine the Inquisition would declare them Excommunicate Traitoris. Are you planning on this being a decree back in Imperial Space and not to the Black Friars' faces, or is an Inquisitor going to try and track them down (with SoB) and attempt to denounce and destroy them while they crusade in the furthest reaches of space?
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#6
Grand Master Tyrak

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The actual transformation is something that I think I'm going to need to spend some more time to effectively explain, especially since it's going to involve trying to subtly hint at things I would rather not make explicit.


I think it would help if you hinted at the Chaplains' desperation for a solution, thus raising the possibility that the solution they have come to is not the Emperor's Will made into a solution, but rather a solution made into the Emperor's Will.

"Be an Inquisition informer, betray your friends and family - Fabulous Prizes to be Won!"


#7
Apothete

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Update!

One other point to raise. Is your Chapter going to be officially declared Excommunicate Traitoris by the Imperium? It seems to be like your Chapter is sticking by the Emperor and carrying out his work, but after the transformation of the Chapter, which the Imperium will name as mutations, and the Black Friars assault on its Imperial Envoy, I'd imagine the Inquisition would declare them Excommunicate Traitoris. Are you planning on this being a decree back in Imperial Space and not to the Black Friars' faces, or is an Inquisitor going to try and track them down (with SoB) and attempt to denounce and destroy them while they crusade in the furthest reaches of space?


As I currently envision them, there is no Excommunicate order leveled at them just yet. As far as the Imperium knows, the fledgelings never made it all the way to a nameless backwater world and the Galaxian Mission fizzled out along with them.

Reports of skeletal Marines would be minimized by strict armor discipline, and their great distance from Terra goes some way to mitigating the tendency of information to finding its way into the hands of the Inquisition. Nobody on their outward journey was intended to go back to into the galactic core and even the Navy's portion of the trip was one-way, with their ships intended to strengthen the garrisons of border planets. Also, as nobody has brought the timing up, I think it would be far easier for my Chapter to get lost in all of the hullabaloo of the Age of Apostasy, which happens right in their back yard.

I think it would help if you hinted at the Chaplains' desperation for a solution, thus raising the possibility that the solution they have come to is not the Emperor's Will made into a solution, but rather a solution made into the Emperor's Will.


How's that?

Edit: That being my edited version, of course.

Edited by Apothete, 27 June 2009 - 07:19 AM.

You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#8
Telveryon

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Ah! So you finally did it! Be careful liberites, I smell a wave of undead space marines that will engulf our most precious of boards! Well, we now have a undead space marine chapter of ever flavor, the Harbingers fully fallen, the Black Friars on the edge and the Will of the Lost fully loyal to the Emperor.

Bah! Why can't I be a writer half as good as you are, Apothete? If I were, both the Golden Defenders and the Will of the Lost would have been the Librarium by now. All I can say now is that despite a few typos and a few words that seem out of place, it's a most excellent read! I am proud to have helped inspire this!

Yeah, I'm sure that I'm not done with them yet.

The actual transformation is something that I think I'm going to need to spend some more time to effectively explain, especially since it's going to involve trying to subtly hint at things I would rather not make explicit.

I smell the hand of Tzeench...

That's actually the way I intended to take things on further revision, believe it or not. I just needed to get my thoughts into a coherent form and the way that they came out this time was simpler, though certainly not the final form that they're likely to take. I wanted to hang the framework and then adjust after the fact.

If only all DIY-er did the same, we'd have far more cool chapters to read.

I certainly missed that discussion but if I find it I will read it, it may help me understand more about the turning point of the Chapter. All I can say is that you'll have to be careful when using the Ruinous Powers if you want to keep your Chapter faithful to the Emperor. Certainly with Dorn's geneseed you have the stubborness and tenancity required to stick to the Imperium's ideals while being hounded by the Ruinous Powers and the Imperium itself.

You can find that discussion about the Will of the Lost here and there is a lesser discussion here.

One other point to raise. Is your Chapter going to be officially declared Excommunicate Traitoris by the Imperium? It seems to be like your Chapter is sticking by the Emperor and carrying out his work, but after the transformation of the Chapter, which the Imperium will name as mutations, and the Black Friars assault on its Imperial Envoy, I'd imagine the Inquisition would declare them Excommunicate Traitoris. Are you planning on this being a decree back in Imperial Space and not to the Black Friars' faces, or is an Inquisitor going to try and track them down (with SoB) and attempt to denounce and destroy them while they crusade in the furthest reaches of space?

The problem is that not even the Inquisition can Excomunicate a chapter for actions they don't know about. If you leave no survivors and break off communications before doing something nasty the Imperium at large can't know what transpired. Since I'm pretty sure that the way Apothete wants to go then the only way an inquisitor could find out about the nature of the Friars is to see one of the pop back up after being rained on the landscape by a lascannon shot.

Though Apothete, there is an issue that the Black Friars would face that the Wills don't. Gene-seed tithes. The Wills have changed their name and heraldry considerably, there is no parallels that can be drawn between the Angels Exemplar and the Will of the Lost, however this doesn't seem to be the case with the Back Friars.

Iron Gauntlet IA: Harbingers of Woe

Proud owner of the The Golden Defenders (everyone's favorite faithless bastards, favorite because I'm pretty sure their the only ones) and the Will of the Lost (everyone's second favorite skeletal marines, Apothete stole the limelight with his Black Friars)

#9
Apothete

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Ah! So you finally did it! Be careful liberites, I smell a wave of undead space marines that will engulf our most precious of boards! Well, we now have a undead space marine chapter of ever flavor, the Harbingers fully fallen, the Black Friars on the edge and the Will of the Lost fully loyal to the Emperor.


The Black Friars are fully Loyalist, or they at least believe themselves to be.

Bah! Why can't I be a writer half as good as you are, Apothete? If I were, both the Golden Defenders and the Will of the Lost would have been the Librarium by now. All I can say now is that despite a few typos and a few words that seem out of place, it's a most excellent read! I am proud to have helped inspire this!


You're not too shabby, so don't be so hard on yourself.

Could you point out the typos and misplacements? I ran the second draft through the spellchecker again but it's sometimes difficult to visually edit your own work because of personal preferences.

I smell the hand of Tzeench...


What with his being the God of Change, you really don't know where that hand has been...

If only all DIY-er did the same, we'd have far more cool chapters to read.


Ha.

The Exonerators and the Black Friars are being written in my usual manner, which is to just sit down with a core idea and let the words come out until I either go cross-eyed or feel satisfied with what I've done so far. My deviation from this time-honored shotgun approach is the one project I've made the least progress one.

Thanks for the praise, all the same.

The problem is that not even the Inquisition can Excomunicate a chapter for actions they don't know about. If you leave no survivors and break off communications before doing something nasty the Imperium at large can't know what transpired. Since I'm pretty sure that the way Apothete wants to go then the only way an inquisitor could find out about the nature of the Friars is to see one of the pop back up after being rained on the landscape by a lascannon shot.


Quite simply, this.

Though Apothete, there is an issue that the Black Friars would face that the Wills don't. Gene-seed tithes. The Wills have changed their name and heraldry considerably, there is no parallels that can be drawn between the Angels Exemplar and the Will of the Lost, however this doesn't seem to be the case with the Back Friars.


Ah, but I have dealt with that somewhat.

The Chapter ends up changing its colors post Theosis, they're very, very far away from anything important and in a region of space that plays host to the Age of Apostasy and the incoming Hive Fleet Behemoth, and they tend to either not engage or go for total elimination of anything in their way. They're not content with just striking and then running away, not when they have no reason to fear death.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#10
Telveryon

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The Black Friars are fully Loyalist, or they at least believe themselves to be.

That's what I meant by being on the edge, it's not a 100% thing. You yourself admitted that they're om the border and not in the extremes.

Could you point out the typos and misplacements? I ran the second draft through the spellchecker again but it's sometimes difficult to visually edit your own work because of personal preferences.

My comment was made before the update, the issues seem to be fixed now.

Ah, but I have dealt with that somewhat.

The Chapter ends up changing its colors post Theosis, they're very, very far away from anything important and in a region of space that plays host to the Age of Apostasy and the incoming Hive Fleet Behemoth, and they tend to either not engage or go for total elimination of anything in their way. They're not content with just striking and then running away, not when they have no reason to fear death.

Well, that's not made very clear in the IA, you might wish to emphasize it a bit more. Also, the Age of Apostasy and Hive Fleet Behemoth are separated by some 5000 years of history. But I must concede, the Age of Apostasy is a great time to have your chapter forgotten about but you should make it rather clear.

Iron Gauntlet IA: Harbingers of Woe

Proud owner of the The Golden Defenders (everyone's favorite faithless bastards, favorite because I'm pretty sure their the only ones) and the Will of the Lost (everyone's second favorite skeletal marines, Apothete stole the limelight with his Black Friars)

#11
Grand Master Tyrak

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I think it would help if you hinted at the Chaplains' desperation for a solution, thus raising the possibility that the solution they have come to is not the Emperor's Will made into a solution, but rather a solution made into the Emperor's Will.

How's that?


I think a little more desperation on the part of the Chaplains would be good. They seem to accept this too readily, there should be a real sense that they are having a hard time reconciling this (and Telemachus' message) with what they have always believed. Off the top of my head, there are two ways you could finish this off. One, that they accept that the only way the Chapter can survive and continue to serve the Emperor is to work round this problem. Two, they receive a vision from the Emperor (or is it? :) ) instructing them to continue in his service regardless.

"Be an Inquisition informer, betray your friends and family - Fabulous Prizes to be Won!"


#12
Apothete

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Well, that's not made very clear in the IA, you might wish to emphasize it a bit more. Also, the Age of Apostasy and Hive Fleet Behemoth are separated by some 5000 years of history. But I must concede, the Age of Apostasy is a great time to have your chapter forgotten about but you should make it rather clear.


I'll think about it some before I do the next revision of their history.

While I want the implication that they're lost during the Age of Apostasy to be there, I don't want to make too many claims of direct involvement. The problem with adding more about the time between then and now is, as it always is with my writing, word count.

I think a little more desperation on the part of the Chaplains would be good. They seem to accept this too readily, there should be a real sense that they are having a hard time reconciling this (and Telemachus' message) with what they have always believed. Off the top of my head, there are two ways you could finish this off. One, that they accept that the only way the Chapter can survive and continue to serve the Emperor is to work round this problem. Two, they receive a vision from the Emperor (or is it? msn-wink.gif ) instructing them to continue in his service regardless.


I was actually intending to angle towards something in the middle of the two, with visions urging them to accept the change as the only way for them to continue on, though that apparently didn't come through in the draft I did last night. They could arguably remain as they are, but now that they know there's something wrong and that it could very well... Oh wait. Idea just struck.

This ought to be interesting.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#13
Apothete

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Bumping for update.

I've rewritten the transitional period somewhat, incorporating suggestions from those who've commented already. There's obviously a lot more that needs to be done since the remaining sections are fragmentary at best, but I don't want to pursue them with any great vigor until after I get the origins nailed down.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#14
Apothete

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I really hate doing this but it's been almost a week.

Is there nothing in the origins section that could be improved or commented on?
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#15
Tyrannicide

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I really hate doing this but it's been almost a week.

Is there nothing in the origins section that could be improved or commented on?

It's long that's for sure, a bit of a daunting read. I'm interested though, I'll read it through tomorrow morning and give you any feedback necessary. :)

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#16
Tutteman

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Wow, if nothing else it's a great read. I like the idea behind it and shall continue to watch this mainly so I can see how IAs are done :( Most importantly how to bring your theme in subtly into play. :( I am watching :P
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#17
Tyrannicide

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Just finished reading it. I must say it was a fairly entertaining read and their transformation from Astartes to true 'Angels of Death' is quite interesting. Definitely a unique and atypical portrayal of the 'Cursed Founding' Chapter. I can't pick out any flaws concerning that. However, I think there's a lot of fat that can be trimmed back from the Origins section. You seem to constantly repeat yourself on numerous occasions. I understood your points initially, there's no need for you to ram them home consecutively throughout. I'd read one sentence and later another, which stated the exact same idea as the first, the only difference being that is was written in a reworded form. To say the least, it began to become slightly frustrating. Quality over quantity should be paramount, and half of your Origins just seems like filler and fluff. The article would be much better without the gloss, as it's hampering the IA in its current incarnation. My main point being that I'd personally try and cut down on that, severely (see now you have me doing it with my very own suggestion -_-).


Here's just a small example of what annoyed me:

...binding the souls of the Chapter together even as those weakest in faith were reduced to cinders.


Then you presume to tell the reader the exact same thing in the following paragraph:

The faithful would live on and those who doubted perished and did not rise...



This is one of the more minor samples, but my point should still be valid. Everyone repeats themselves, but you do it abundantly throughout the article. Both perfectly written sentences but with the exact same intention, which is quite trivial when you write like that persistently. I understand that I may have started to blow this out of proportion, but it's how much it stuck with me. To conclude this, your writing starts to come across as far too redundant and it irked me, as your skill with the English language (unlike most of us) is outstanding. I hope you acknowledge these minor mistakes, taking the time to crop the excess from your article, as it can only help in the long run. That said, this is steadily becoming one of my favorites of the 21st Founding Chapters that we (DIY creators) seem to share a certain fixation with. :)

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#18
Apothete

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Wow, if nothing else it's a great read. I like the idea behind it and shall continue to watch this mainly so I can see how IAs are done ;) Most importantly how to bring your theme in subtly into play. :lol: I am watching :D


Thank you kindly. I like to believe that I'm an able writer, but I'm far from perfect and there are mistakes all through this current version that will need to be corrected before I'm ready to work outwards into the rest of the article.

Just finished reading it. I must say it was a fairly entertaining read and their transformation from Astartes to true 'Angels of Death' is quite interesting. Definitely a unique and atypical portrayal of the 'Cursed Founding' Chapter. I can't pick out any flaws concerning that. However, I think there's a lot of fat that can be trimmed back from the Origins section.


Once again, thank you for reading and the compliments. I'm pretty good at churning out ideas and then hanging them together in a way that makes sense to me, but the hardest aspect of the whole process is to make sure that other people take from my writing what I want them to.

You're absolutely right that the Origins segment is too long and repetitive, but that's an artifact of the way in which I polish the areas that contain the most glaring mistakes. A first draft goes up for commentary, then I patch, alter, and correct wherever I feel that the most glaring issues are, revising only portions until the rough form is where I want it to be. That's the point at which I sit down with the article pulled up as it stands in a browser window and the master copy in my text editor, and I rewrite the whole thing for flow purposes. The Exonerators suffered from the same problem that you're pointing out here until I sat down and completely reworked the entire thing from one end to the other. Even still, I think there are places in that writeup that I need to improve but I'm letting it sit so that I can impassively judge once my urges have had a chance to cool off.

You seem to constantly repeat yourself on numerous occasions. I understood your points initially, there's no need for you to ram them home consecutively throughout. I'd read one sentence and later another, which stated the exact same idea as the first, the only difference being that is was written in a reworded form. To say the least, it began to become slightly frustrating


This will probably be far less of a problem once I'm satisfied that the core of the concepts are in place, for the reasons that I stated above. A full rewrite often sees the word count plummet and the reuse of words being strangled mercilessly. There are artifacts aplenty of my four or five minor revisions right now.

Quality over quantity should be paramount, and half of your Origins just seems like filler and fluff. The article would be much better without the gloss, as it's hampering the IA in its current incarnation.


Since you've not seriously commented on one of my articles before, I find myself curious. What do you see as being extraneous and unnecessary?

Everything that I included as a major element is something I see as important, but it's incredibly hard to read your own writing in an objective fashion. Barring the repetition issue, I would love to know what seems like it doesn't belong.

as your skill with the English language (unlike most of us) is outstanding.


I'm decent but I go on too much, as you can see.

That said, this is steadily becoming one of my favorites of the 21st Founding Chapters that we (DIY creators) seem to share a certain fixation with. :)


You can blame it on Telveryon, since the Friars only exist because he said that he wanted to read my take on skeletal Marines when I was assisting with his Chapter.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#19
Tyrannicide

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You're absolutely right that the Origins segment is too long and repetitive, but that's an artifact of the way in which I polish the areas that contain the most glaring mistakes. A first draft goes up for commentary, then I patch, alter, and correct wherever I feel that the most glaring issues are, revising only portions until the rough form is where I want it to be. That's the point at which I sit down with the article pulled up as it stands in a browser window and the master copy in my text editor, and I rewrite the whole thing for flow purposes. The Exonerators suffered from the same problem that you're pointing out here until I sat down and completely reworked the entire thing from one end to the other. Even still, I think there are places in that writeup that I need to improve but I'm letting it sit so that I can impassively judge once my urges have had a chance to cool off.

It's definitely a hard process, but you seem to be steadily rising in the 'Liber-ite ranks'. By the way, it's great to see you've taken my advice into consideration. Originally I was thinking this could potentially get nasty, and it could have easily gone the other way. :lol:

Since you've not seriously commented on one of my articles before, I find myself curious. What do you see as being extraneous and unnecessary?

Hmm.

Well, I think the second and third paragraphs are a prime example of what I personally see as 'extraneous'. Those two paragraphs would be something that may be welcomed in a background source book, or something similar, but in the IA article does it really hold a place that you feel is important to your Chapter's growth? I think it's definitely something that could be shortened down into two to three sentences if you are attached to it, and if it holds a place of significance. I've honestly only skimmed through the Exonerators article, I thought it was pretty good but was never seriously involved in their progress. That's something I'd like to change starting now. I'll try and provide more feedback to articles and to the best of my ability, hopefully improving others while I work on my own writing. I've got something in the works right now, that's completely different from my disastrous exercise called the 'Godslayers'. I feel my current Chapter is spewing with character and some of the older members of the Liber faithful may remember them when I post their IA.


Everything that I included as a major element is something I see as important, but it's incredibly hard to read your own writing in an objective fashion. Barring the repetition issue, I would love to know what seems like it doesn't belong.

Besides the third and second paragraph I mentioned above, I'm not entirely sure what else doesn't belong. I'd just prefer reading IA: The Black Friars – the condensed version, in the end. Right now it's a little too descriptive, if you know what I mean. Most of that thought stems from the fact that you've overdeveloped the Origins section greatly, while it could be shortened vastly. Anyways I already went over that rant, I'm sure you catch my drift. ;)


You can blame it on Telveryon, since the Friars only exist because he said that he wanted to read my take on skeletal Marines when I was assisting with his Chapter.

Well I'm glad Telveryon influenced you, because I can see more character in the Black Friars now that I've had a chance to see your response. Initially after I finished reading your article, I thought to myself your main source of inspiration is probably Doctor Manhattan from the Watchmen series, which is an awesome source of a theme for a 21st Founding Chapter. While Watchmen is my favorite graphic novel, Doc Manhattan is quite a hard character to translate into the Space Marine archetype. If he was indeed one of the aspects that inspired you to create these guys, then I congratulate you on a certainly intriguing Chapter that you have here. :D

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#20
Apothete

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It's definitely a hard process, but you seem to be steadily rising in the 'Liber-ite ranks'. By the way, it's great to see you've taken my advice into consideration. Originally I was thinking this could potentially get nasty, and it could have easily gone the other way. :huh:


If I'm going to post my own material for critique and do the kinds of research that's necessary to reach the standard that I hold myself to, it's only fair that I then turn around and give the sorts of analysis and knowledge that I wish brought to bear upon my writing. This board is meant to be a place where we can rely upon each other for honesty, community resources, and a willingness to aid one another in becoming better writers in every sense.

Besides, heated arguments tend to shut down the exchange of ideas rather than promote them.

Well, I think the second and third paragraphs are a prime example of what I personally see as 'extraneous'. Those two paragraphs would be something that may be welcomed in a background source book, or something similar, but in the IA article does it really hold a place that you feel is important to your Chapter's growth?


Actually, while you might be right that the material should be pared down to a less voluminous form, I absolutely do believe that the information in that subsection is vital in understanding who the Friars are and where they come from. They're directly sprung from the Imperial Fists and sent upon a mission that's religious in nature, one that would be somewhat anathemic to the more hardcore Astartes who don't believe in the deification of the Emperor. That contrast is important and it sets the stage for their slow and partial conversion during the trip out to their adoptive homeworld.

If you read any of the original Index Astartes for First Founding Chapters, that's the sort of detail which I would expect to come through. They're often in the thousands on the word count and the vast majority of their bulk comes from history, formative events, descriptions of important figures (usually Primarchs), and very light on things like Combat Doctrine and equipment. To be fair, I'm stting around the total word count of one of the official articles right now, but that's going to be rectified as the revision process continues.

I've honestly only skimmed through the Exonerators article, I thought it was pretty good but was never seriously involved in their progress. That's something I'd like to change starting now. I'll try and provide more feedback to articles and to the best of my ability, hopefully improving others while I work on my own writing. I've got something in the works right now, that's completely different from my disastrous exercise called the 'Godslayers'. I feel my current Chapter is spewing with character and some of the older members of the Liber faithful may remember them when I post their IA.


The Exonerators are enormous different from the first thoughts that I had when I finally decided to jump in and get my feet wet last fall, after a decade and a half of reading about the universe and not owning any armies of my own. There's no shame in giving up on the untenable aspects of your ideas and finding a way forward that you'll enjoy, and I'm finding that maintaining more than one project is a way for me to explore concepts that don't necessarily work when applied all at once.

Feel free to comment on them as well since they're still in development. I'm not satisfied enough to submit them to the Librarium yet.


Besides the third and second paragraph I mentioned above, I'm not entirely sure what else doesn't belong. I'd just prefer reading IA: The Black Friars – the condensed version, in the end. Right now it's a little too descriptive, if you know what I mean. Most of that thought stems from the fact that you've overdeveloped the Origins section greatly, while it could be shortened vastly. Anyways I already went over that rant, I'm sure you catch my drift. :P


I am, to be uncharacteristically terse, loquacious in the extreme.

Whether in writing or in person, I can almost always find something to say. The problem is making myself stop describing all the wonderful things that I can see inside of my head, since I'm usually thinking on at least five different tracks at any given time.

Well I'm glad Telveryon influenced you, because I can see more character in the Black Friars now that I've had a chance to see your response. Initially after I finished reading your article, I thought to myself your main source of inspiration is probably Doctor Manhattan from the Watchmen series, which is an awesome source of a theme for a 21st Founding Chapter.


I hadn't even looked at them in that light, but they actually do have elements in common with Dr. Manhatten and I'm surprised that the connection didn't occur to me earlier. The influence is clearly there in what I wrote, though I would be lying if I claimed that I did it consciously. Here I was, thinking that the things I'd been reading over the last year weren't coloring my thoughts as much...

While Watchmen is my favorite graphic novel, Doc Manhattan is quite a hard character to translate into the Space Marine archetype. If he was indeed one of the aspects that inspired you to create these guys, then I congratulate you on a certainly intriguing Chapter that you have here.


My subconscious mind thanks you, because I can clearly see now where the suggestion of that character shows in what I've done.

This is also why I'm afraid to post any of my conversion ideas on a different board, because they're very big on attribution and accuse fairly readily of stealing if you don't name the person who inspired you. I've read so much on the Imperium and wasted so many hours on looking at miniatures and conversions that others have done and honestly can't even begin to cite my influences on visual style anymore.
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#21
Apothete

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First pass on clean up and word count cutting is done. I managed to slash out about 550-600 words while still keeping things in line with my vision for the Chapter.

Any glaring issues?
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP


#22
Telveryon

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Decades would pass as the minions of the Ecclesiarchy dwindled and neophytes were taken from the worlds that the fleet passed, gradually swelling their ranks until the Chapter is nearing full numbers by the time the meandering trail neared its end.

I am by no means and English expert but the last part of that sentence just doesn't sound as it should, something to do with tenses I think...

Facing what the dead Knight Praxis claimed was a resurrection of miraculous character, the Abbots did what they must. Reigniting the furnaces after only a handful of minutes, they shut out the cries from within the forge and purged the serfs and servitors who had witnessed the event.

Very big issue with the article as a whole are these strange titles like Knight Praxis and Abbots, you should clarify in some way to which standard rank they are equivalent.

In the searing heat of the sudden rush of nuclear fire...

To my knowledge, plasma and nuclear fire are two quite different things.

Other then those minor nitpicks, it's a excellent read. It's only true drawback is that it's no complete, I myself can't wait for the Beliefs section. You should consider expanding Organization section as well to include those funky ranks and maybe say how did they reorganize themselves after they died.

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#23
Ace Debonair

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Gosh. This really is quite an entertaining read!

The revived chapter has more than a slighly eerie feel to them. I'll readily admit that reading that made me feel uneasy - I'm used to the undead being the bad guys! ;)

Having read several of the chapter creation stories on this website has really made the rough draft I'd written look incredibly shoddy. I can see I have a heck of a lot of work to do to match some of the stories I've read!

I look forward to reading about the beliefs and combat organisation of the black friars. I can't help but think something other than the "we're-immortal-what-the-hell-does-it-matter-how-we-line-up" approach would really define this chapter, even beyond what you've already done.

#24
Apothete

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I am by no means and English expert but the last part of that sentence just doesn't sound as it should, something to do with tenses I think...


You're probably right, and I'll slate it for the next revision pass.

Very big issue with the article as a whole are these strange titles like Knight Praxis and Abbots, you should clarify in some way to which standard rank they are equivalent.


Now that I have time to write again, I'll probably do that section next and then go back to revising the Origins section once I have more of a reference for those who don't have my mental notes to operate from. Most of the roles are renamings of standard Codex designations, intended to suit the one theme I included which nobody has yet commented upon.

To my knowledge, plasma and nuclear fire are two quite different things.


It depends on whether ships operate by nuclear fusion or nuclear fission. Since plasma is the product of a fusion reaction and I believe that it's those sorts of reactors which would be in use in the 40k universe, I've never really drawn much of a distinction between the two in my writing.

As a side note, I sometimes wonder if the in-system drives of Imperial starships would use ion drives

Other then those minor nitpicks, it's a excellent read. It's only true drawback is that it's no complete, I myself can't wait for the Beliefs section. You should consider expanding Organization section as well to include those funky ranks and maybe say how did they reorganize themselves after they died.


Thanks for the compliments, and I'll definitely be finishing them as soon as the muses allow. I'm still recovering from all the work that I had to do for that pesky paycheck but I'll be right back at it sooner rather than later.

Gosh. This really is quite an entertaining read!


Thank you.

Feel free to read and comment on my other two projects, both linked in my signature.

The revived chapter has more than a slighly eerie feel to them. I'll readily admit that reading that made me feel uneasy - I'm used to the undead being the bad guys! ^_^


I can't claim to be the originator of the idea, since this is my version of a concept first developed and explored by Telveryon. We were going back and forth on his version of Loyalist skeletal marines and I found myself harboring certain ideas of my own, so I started this thread and began to explore the ramifications and origins of such a Chapter.

Having read several of the chapter creation stories on this website has really made the rough draft I'd written look incredibly shoddy. I can see I have a heck of a lot of work to do to match some of the stories I've read!


If it makes you feel any better, my original draft posting that I submitted some eight months ago was pretty bad. It seems to be something of a tradition around here, and so there's nothing to be ashamed of if you think that other people are outshining you. Even having someone come by and glowingly praise my work doesn't make the things I see other people come up with any less impressive to me, after all.

I look forward to reading about the beliefs and combat organisation of the black friars. I can't help but think something other than the "we're-immortal-what-the-hell-does-it-matter-how-we-line-up" approach would really define this chapter, even beyond what you've already done.


Oh, there are plans...
You just had to look around you, Grey Knight, and you'd have seen it. What is Chaos? Suffering, you might say. Oppression. Deceit. But could not all of these things be said of your Imperium?
-Ghargatuloth, Prince of a Thousand Faces, Grey Knights.

The Exonerators Index Astartes WIP + The Inscrutable Index Traitoris WIP + The Black Friars Index Astartes WIP