69 replies to this topic

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I'd give them Combat Tactics and Combat Squads and get rid of tactical shift. IMO, they're already quite different from standard Tacticals, and having Combat Tactics and Combat Squads makes sense given that the Deathwatch is supposed to be fairly Codex-compliant.

[- 7eAL -]

Personally, I'd give them Combat Tactics and Combat Squads and get rid of tactical shift. IMO, they're already quite different from standard Tacticals, and having Combat Tactics and Combat Squads makes sense given that the Deathwatch is supposed to be fairly Codex-compliant.

Hm. I thought I had said something about Combat Tactics Squads earlier, but it must be in the other thread. Oh wait it was Tyrak who said it.
Here:

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear

That's it? It seems a bit... thin. No combat tactics, or even any substitute? I think the Kill-Team should have a few extra special rules that make them viable foot sloggers.

It's a good starting point. I would argue against Combat Tactics. Splitting the Kill-Team isn't going to be a good idea when you're on your own. In terms of synergy, I see the Kill-teams fighting in a similar way to how they'd fight on their own. You'd have some members providing cover and some moving forward. This continues, but you just replace "members" with "squad". In effect, the DW army would play in a similar manner to a giant Kill-Team.

Additionally, considering the sort of options that we've got, Combat Tactics Squads for the Deathwatch is either highly effective, or very unfair.
It depends on how each person plays, of course, and against whom.

In any case, a squad of ten with two close combat weapons and two special/heavy weapons can split up with all the close combat experts in one combat squad, and all the shiny guns in the other. Most non-Marines have learned to stop complaining about this, but with the Deathwatch it may become a genuine problem because the Deathwatch have better close combat weapons and more power weapons available.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 14 September 2009 - 05:25 PM.

[Chengar Qordath]

Alright, that gives some good reasons why combat squads and tactics aren't good choices, so what do replace them with? I would say we need to avoid any of the special rules that are associated with one of the other chapters; giving Deathwatch Fleet or Stubborn would make them seem a bit too much like one particular chapter when they're made up of members hundreds of different chapters. To toss out a couple ideas, how about giving them defensive grenades? Special ammunition already makes Deathwatch shootier than Marines so they'll be useful, and to my knowlede no other marines have defensive granades. Makes sense fluffwise too; Deathwatch is supposed to have the best toys. Counter-Attack has a similar appeal to Defensive Grenades, but uses different mechanics to achieve the result.

[- 7eAL -]

Alright, that gives some good reasons why combat squads and tactics aren't good choices, so what do replace them with? I would say we need to avoid any of the special rules that are associated with one of the other chapters; giving Deathwatch Fleet or Stubborn would make them seem a bit too much like one particular chapter when they're made up of members hundreds of different chapters. To toss out a couple ideas, how about giving them defensive grenades? Special ammunition already makes Deathwatch shootier than Marines so they'll be useful, and to my knowlede no other marines have defensive granades. Makes sense fluffwise too; Deathwatch is supposed to have the best toys. Counter-Attack has a similar appeal to Defensive Grenades, but uses different mechanics to achieve the result.

Whoops when I said Combat Tactics I actually meant Combat Squads.
In fact it seems like we've been confusing them both for a while now.

Combat Tactics itself isn't a problem in that it helps to retain tactical flexibility, getting the Deathwatch out of fights that they can't win. Of course, Combat Tactics may not be necessary considering squads will normally have a few power weapons of some kind to protect themselves with.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 14 September 2009 - 05:26 PM.

[Chengar Qordath]

Whoops when I said Combat Tactics I actually meant Combat Squads.
In fact it seems like we've been confusing them both for a while now.

Combat Tactics itself isn't a problem in that it helps to retain tactical flexibility, getting the Deathwatch out of fights that they can't win. Of course, Combat Tactics may not be necessary considering squads will normally have a few power weapons of some kind to protect themselves with.

So how about my suggestion of defensive grenades replacing the Combat Squads and/or Tactics? IIRC no other Imperium unit has defensive grenades, so it would help give the Deathwatch something that makes them a bit more unique while fitting in with the concept of Deathwatch as Space Marines with some extra toys.

[- 7eAL -]

Whoops when I said Combat Tactics I actually meant Combat Squads.
In fact it seems like we've been confusing them both for a while now.

Combat Tactics itself isn't a problem in that it helps to retain tactical flexibility, getting the Deathwatch out of fights that they can't win. Of course, Combat Tactics may not be necessary considering squads will normally have a few power weapons of some kind to protect themselves with.

So how about my suggestion of defensive grenades replacing the Combat Squads and/or Tactics? IIRC no other Imperium unit has defensive grenades, so it would help give the Deathwatch something that makes them a bit more unique while fitting in with the concept of Deathwatch as Space Marines with some extra toys.

Snare mines on Guard Veterans count as defensive grenades.

I find myself struck by what Pyriel said about codex skills and abilities. If the Deathwatch trained men to use defensive grenades, why wouldn't all codex Space Marines eventually learn these techniques and use them? The Deathwatch trains the rank and file battle brother into a Veteran. The Deathwatch trains the seasoned Veteran into a Captain. And the experienced Captain into the next Chapter Master. Realistically we should only allow skills and abilities that already lie within the reach of the normal codex progression of Marines.

Honestly, Tactical Shift given to replace Combat Squads isn't so bad. Running isn't a unique combat skill that other Space Marines don't have. But running max-distance on-command is a battlefield response and behavior that other Space Marines don't always demand. Half the time, running is situational - people can always run faster and perform better when they are at their most desperate.

[Chengar Qordath]

Snare mines on Guard Veterans count as defensive grenades.

Forgot about those.

I find myself struck by what Pyriel said about codex skills and abilities. If the Deathwatch trained men to use defensive grenades, why wouldn't all codex Space Marines eventually learn these techniques and use them? The Deathwatch trains the rank and file battle brother into a Veteran. The Deathwatch trains the seasoned Veteran into a Captain. And the experienced Captain into the next Chapter Master. Realistically we should only allow skills and abilities that already lie within the reach of the normal codex progression of Marines.

The Deathwatch does have the dilemma of closely following the Codex Astartes, yet needing to have something that sets them apart from standard Space Marines. Since there aren't really any special rules that match with their image without overlapping with any single chapter, the simplest way to set up Deathwatch is to give them nicer toys by virtue of their ties to the Inquisition. That's why they have special ammunition, and why I proposed defensive grenades; part of what sets the Deathwatch apart is better gear than the average chapter. Elite units get elite gear.

Fluff-wise, the Guard having access to defensive grenades but not the Space Marines makes less sense than a special, elite unit of SMs having them, but not the normal SMs.

Honestly, Tactical Shift given to replace Combat Squads isn't so bad. Running isn't a unique combat skill that other Space Marines don't have. But running max-distance on-command is a battlefield response and behavior that other Space Marines don't always demand. Half the time, running is situational - people can always run faster and perform better when they are at their most desperate.

The problem with tactical shift is that it's not all that useful unless the army is footslogging; mechanized armies won't use tactical shift when they have Rhinos. Considering meta trends in 5th edition, we can expect a lot of Deathwatch players will want to mechanize, and forcing them to pay for special rules that only benefit footsloggers weakens the strength and versatility of the army.

As far as fluff is concerned, it's IMO harder to explain why Marines that left the Deathwatch suddenly start running as slowly as 1/6th the speed they went while in the Deathwatch than it is to explain that the Deathwatch gets better gear than normal SMs.

[- 7eAL -]

I find myself struck by what Pyriel said about codex skills and abilities. If the Deathwatch trained men to use defensive grenades, why wouldn't all codex Space Marines eventually learn these techniques and use them? The Deathwatch trains the rank and file battle brother into a Veteran. The Deathwatch trains the seasoned Veteran into a Captain. And the experienced Captain into the next Chapter Master. Realistically we should only allow skills and abilities that already lie within the reach of the normal codex progression of Marines.

The Deathwatch does have the dilemma of closely following the Codex Astartes, yet needing to have something that sets them apart from standard Space Marines. Since there aren't really any special rules that match with their image without overlapping with any single chapter, the simplest way to set up Deathwatch is to give them nicer toys by virtue of their ties to the Inquisition. That's why they have special ammunition, and why I proposed defensive grenades; part of what sets the Deathwatch apart is better gear than the average chapter. Elite units get elite gear.

Fluff-wise, the Guard having access to defensive grenades but not the Space Marines makes less sense than a special, elite unit of SMs having them, but not the normal SMs.

Honestly, Tactical Shift given to replace Combat Squads isn't so bad. Running isn't a unique combat skill that other Space Marines don't have. But running max-distance on-command is a battlefield response and behavior that other Space Marines don't always demand. Half the time, running is situational - people can always run faster and perform better when they are at their most desperate.

The problem with tactical shift is that it's not all that useful unless the army is footslogging; mechanized armies won't use tactical shift when they have Rhinos. Considering meta trends in 5th edition, we can expect a lot of Deathwatch players will want to mechanize, and forcing them to pay for special rules that only benefit footsloggers weakens the strength and versatility of the army.

As far as fluff is concerned, it's IMO harder to explain why Marines that left the Deathwatch suddenly start running as slowly as 1/6th the speed they went while in the Deathwatch than it is to explain that the Deathwatch gets better gear than normal SMs.

It keeps coming up that you're looking for "something" to differentiate the Deathwatch from other Marines. That doesn't provide us with a very purposeful means of tackling the problem.

Better gear is always a problem because other Marines always want to steal it. Any significant skill is a problem because other Marines want to learn it. We've already had special ammunition stolen from the Deathwatch and given to codex Chapters. We've already seen codex Chapters steal the Mortis pattern Dreadnought - at least the autocannon variant.

As was said before, if the Deathwatch get defensive grenades, why don't Sternguard and Vanguard Marines get defensive grenades as well? If they know methods of using grenades defensively, why don't the Deathwatch veterans teach other Marines once they get back to their Chapter? If they take a handful of defensive grenades with them when they leave the Deathwatch, why don't the armouries and Forgefathers go to the trouble of dissecting it so it can be produced for the rest of the Chapter?

Running is another thing entirely - the Deathwatch Marines could always Run that fast even before they joined the Deathwatch.
It's a matter of situational need, pressure and personal discipline that forces them all to perform to a certain standard, and that standard can be represented in their movement speed - hence automatic maximum Run distance. Once they return to their own Chapter however, they aren't facing the same battlefield situations any more, and the pressure is much less because the Chapter has all sorts of support that the Deathwatch don't and the discipline is less rigorous because the Chapter has its own freedoms, rules and traditions that the spartan Deathwatch avoid as a means of ensuring uniformity amongst members of very different Chapters.
Additionally, when they return to their own Chapter they are surrounded by squad members who are not Deathwatch Veterans, and these Marines determine the squad's movement speed as a whole - just because the Deathwatch Veteran can Run maximum distance every time does not mean he can leave unit coherency and race toward the enemy like an impetuous Blood Claw. The Deathwatch Veteran doesn't lose an ability to run fast, but is forced to keep pace with other slower squad members.

In Running there is no skill to steal or ability to teach, because it is entirely personal discipline and the individual response to pressure.

[Chengar Qordath]

It keeps coming up that you're looking for "something" to differentiate the Deathwatch from other Marines. That doesn't provide us with a very purposeful means of tackling the problem.

Well, if the Deathwatch isn't significantly different from Codex Marines then why make a new Codex for them? As it stands under current codices you can make a very passable Deathwatch force out of the SM Codex by using Kanto, lots of Sternguard, and allying in a couple Inquisitorial bits for flavor; if we're making a new DW codex it needs to be different enough to justify its existence.

Better gear is always a problem because other Marines always want to steal it. Any significant skill is a problem because other Marines want to learn it. We've already had special ammunition stolen from the Deathwatch and given to codex Chapters. We've already seen codex Chapters steal the Mortis pattern Dreadnought - at least the autocannon variant.

I don't think we should shy away from giving the Deathwatch nice and unique things just because the Codex chapters might steal them at some point. That arguement eventually leads to getting rid of all variant chapters and only allowing standard Codex SMs.

As was said before, if the Deathwatch get defensive grenades, why don't Sternguard and Vanguard Marines get defensive grenades as well? If they know methods of using grenades defensively, why don't the Deathwatch veterans teach other Marines once they get back to their Chapter? If they take a handful of defensive grenades with them when they leave the Deathwatch, why don't the armouries and Forgefathers go to the trouble of dissecting it so it can be produced for the rest of the Chapter?

I can think of several ways to explain it by fluff. Maybe whatever Deathwatch uses as Defensive Grenades can't be easily reproduced by Space Marines because the Deathwatch has access to different resources. Maybe the Marines can reproduce them, buthave decided that defensive grenades consume too many resources that would be more useful elsewhere. Maybe defensive grenades don't suit normal SM doctrine, but do work for how the Deathwatch operates.

None of that guarantees the Marines won't try to steal the Deathwatch's unique toys when the inevitable 6th edition SM codex comes out, but there's really no guarantee they wouldn't try to steal Tactical Shift as well. There's much more fluff to justify Marines running better than anyone else than there is to justify Deathwatch running so much better than normal Marines.

[- 7eAL -]

It keeps coming up that you're looking for "something" to differentiate the Deathwatch from other Marines. That doesn't provide us with a very purposeful means of tackling the problem.

Well, if the Deathwatch isn't significantly different from Codex Marines then why make a new Codex for them? As it stands under current codices you can make a very passable Deathwatch force out of the SM Codex by using Kanto, lots of Sternguard, and allying in a couple Inquisitorial bits for flavor; if we're making a new DW codex it needs to be different enough to justify its existence.

Better gear is always a problem because other Marines always want to steal it. Any significant skill is a problem because other Marines want to learn it. We've already had special ammunition stolen from the Deathwatch and given to codex Chapters. We've already seen codex Chapters steal the Mortis pattern Dreadnought - at least the autocannon variant.

I don't think we should shy away from giving the Deathwatch nice and unique things just because the Codex chapters might steal them at some point. That arguement eventually leads to getting rid of all variant chapters and only allowing standard Codex SMs.

It does not mean we should go inventing stuff for that sake alone.

That's a very slippery slope you're walking, because Codex Marines potentially covers everything except Space Wolves and Black Templars.
Variant Chapters are already disappearing - you can see it in the Blood Angels, you can see it in the Dark Angels, in every Loyalist chapter that had an Index Astartes article. You can see it amongst Chaos Marines too - the Alpha Legion, the Iron Warriors, the Word Bearers, the Night Lords. There is very little that they've got that is different from everybody else, even though they have individual history.
Once upon a time it was easy to write a separate Codex and variant rules for each Chapter because there wasn't much in Codex Marines and Codex Chaos Marines to begin with.

Deathwatch have significant differences already.
They don't use regular bolters. That's a big difference because it often seems so many things carry guns with a bolter or near-bolter statline - Strength 4 AP 5 24" Rapid Fire. Strength 4 AP 5 18" Assault 2. Strength 4 AP 5 24" Gauss. Strength 4 AP 5 24" Twin-linked.
They get power weapons amongst basic Troops. That's a big difference because so many armies rely on the hidden fist or hidden claw or the Sergeant's power weapon or whatever the Exarch has.
They don't have tanks - not Land Raiders and Vindicators and Russes anyway. No major pie plates, no mobile Ordnance, no AV 14, nothing with range 72", nothing that can properly win a Ramming contest.
They don't have nearly as many ablative wounds. It's not necessarily as bad as what the Grey Knights suffer, but in the long run it's less than what the Necrons or Space Wolves bring to the table.

At this point it's not what the Deathwatch have that makes them different. It's what they don't have that changes everything.

As was said before, if the Deathwatch get defensive grenades, why don't Sternguard and Vanguard Marines get defensive grenades as well? If they know methods of using grenades defensively, why don't the Deathwatch veterans teach other Marines once they get back to their Chapter? If they take a handful of defensive grenades with them when they leave the Deathwatch, why don't the armouries and Forgefathers go to the trouble of dissecting it so it can be produced for the rest of the Chapter?

I can think of several ways to explain it by fluff. Maybe whatever Deathwatch uses as Defensive Grenades can't be easily reproduced by Space Marines because the Deathwatch has access to different resources. Maybe the Marines can reproduce them, buthave decided that defensive grenades consume too many resources that would be more useful elsewhere. Maybe defensive grenades don't suit normal SM doctrine, but do work for how the Deathwatch operates.

None of that guarantees the Marines won't try to steal the Deathwatch's unique toys when the inevitable 6th edition SM codex comes out, but there's really no guarantee they wouldn't try to steal Tactical Shift as well. There's much more fluff to justify Marines running better than anyone else than there is to justify Deathwatch running so much better than normal Marines.

Defensive grenades don't work for how the Deathwatch operates because the Deathwatch doctrine is surgical offensive, and they almost never mount defensive operations as yet we have seen or heard. Defensive grenades work very well for how the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors work, both being siegemaster Chapters. Defensive grenades also work better for Codex Chapters and even Grey Knights because they have fortresses and homeworlds to protect whereas the Deathwatch are scattered everywhere, and have no particular permanent station - every Deathwatch Marine has another home to go to.

Defensive grenades are easier for Codex Chapters to produce because Deathwatch equipment is supplied on the Inquisition's bureaucratic budget with the cooperation of Mars, not on the resources gathered by a Chapter for its own needs. Chapters tend to be fairly rich since they can acquire and control resources directly and run their own forges, the Salamanders, Ultramarines and Raven Guard being fairly extreme examples of Chapter wealth.


Running however - fluff may justify Marines running better than other humans, but they still can't outrun Eldar or Tyranids and other models with Fleet. Imagine Kayvaan Shrike and the rest of the Raven Guard would automatically Run 6", and then get Fleet on top of that. That's an 18" charge there, and 24" with jump packs or transports. It makes even less sense for Marines to automatically Run 6" when one considers the heavier, less speed-obsessed Chapters such as the Imperial Fists. It seems to make some more sense for the Deathwatch to run fast because they're already on foot most of the time and they're always running in when the alarms start to sound and running out before the enemy reinforcements come to swamp them.

Every Marine can Run 6" from the very basic rules. For the Deathwatch to automatically Run 6" every time does not mean that they run "so much better" than normal Marines. It just means they're more reliable when they do it, and that they're at peak Marine performance every time. Considering that the nature of surgical offensive Deathwatch missions tends or hopes to be quick and brutal strikes, whereas the campaigns that Codex Chapters usually commit resources to often seem to become protracted combat along territorial lines, the Deathwatch are more likely to be more fresh and better rested anyway.

Maybe it would be easier to cope with if they rolled 2D6 for Run and picked the highest instead - chances are, it'll still be 5" or 6" every time and nobody will complain because it looks and sounds fairer and because now and then some poor guy rolls a horrible double-1 for it. At higher levels they get Move Through Cover anyway, and rolling an extra dice for these Movement phase actions seems like an appropriate pattern. Here we go:

Tactical Shift A: If the unit chooses to Run, then they may automatically move their maximum possible Run distance. The unit follows all other rules for Running. - from Vedrial @Jun 29 2009, 12:17 AM

Tactical Shift B: Units with this rule roll an additional D6 when rolling to Run. In most circumstances this means they roll two D6 and pick the dice with the highest score.

[Chengar Qordath]

Still not a big fan of super-running; it just doesn't seem like that good of an ability, especially since it is nearly useless in the increasingly popular mechanized lists. However, I did get a random idea for a different version of a movement-based rule like tactical shift:

Tactical Shift:
At the start of it's movement phase, any unit Deathwatch Marines may choose to move normally, or they may operate under the Slow and Purposeful Universal Special Rule

Edited by Chengar Qordath, 28 September 2009 - 01:21 AM.

[- 7eAL -]

Still not a big fan of super-running; it just doesn't seem like that good of an ability, especially since it is nearly useless in the increasingly popular mechanized lists. However, I did get a random idea for a different version of a movement-based rule like tactical shift:

Tactical Shift:
At the start of it's movement phase, any unit Deathwatch Marines may choose to move normally, or they may operate under the Slow and Purposeful Universal Special Rule

I don't know if that helps either, especially since Deathwatch Marines are supposed to have additional close combat weapons options that would never be used if they moved so slowly.

Seeing the contrast between better Running and Slow and Purposeful, it seems like changing Deathwatch movement will not produce fruitful results.
Seeing also that defensive grenades are problematic and bringing up the matter of additional weapons options (realizing that not many people would charge troops into Deathwatch with weapons options, so defensive grenades seem redundant), perhaps we should go back to the policy where the weapons options and ammunition selection effectively replace the Combat Squads or Combat Tactics rules.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 29 September 2009 - 07:07 AM.

[Chengar Qordath]

I don't know if that helps either, especially since Deathwatch Marines are supposed to have additional close combat weapons options that would never be used if they moved so slowly.

Well, they would only be moving slowly if they wanted to; when they're still a good distance from the enemy they could just not use tactical shift. A version of Slow and Purposeful that can be deactivated at will gets rid of its biggest disadvantage. On further reflection though, that might be a bit too powerful; giving Deathwatch the ability to rapid-fire with special ammunition and shoot heavy weapons, then follow up with a charge that can include multiple special CCWs seems just a bit too devastating.

Seeing the contrast between better Running and Slow and Purposeful, it seems like changing Deathwatch movement will not produce fruitful results.
Seeing also that defensive grenades are problematic and bringing up the matter of additional weapons options (realizing that not many people would charge troops into Deathwatch with weapons options, so defensive grenades seem redundant), perhaps we should go back to the policy where the weapons options and ammunition selection effectively replace the Combat Squads or Combat Tactics rules.

That seems like it would work just as well really; special ammunition and weapon options already render Deathwatch reasonably distinct. While fluffwise the Deathwatch should probably have Combat Squads, as 7eaL has pointed out there are some serious balance concerns there.

One thought on the special CCWs; should they get a bit of a discount on account of being on 1 A models? That is a fairly common GW policy, and 25 points does seem rather steep for a powerfist that only gets a single attack.

[Sigismund Himself]

One thought on the special CCWs; should they get a bit of a discount on account of being on 1 A models? That is a fairly common GW policy, and 25 points does seem rather steep for a powerfist that only gets a single attack.

To my mind, no. If you look at the new Space Wolf 'dex, you'll notice that both Grey Hunters and Blood Claws pay 25 points for a powerfist.

[Chengar Qordath]

To my mind, no. If you look at the new Space Wolf 'dex, you'll notice that both Grey Hunters and Blood Claws pay 25 points for a powerfist.

Haven't gotten my hands on the new Wolf Codex yet; that does rather change things. Any arguement based on GW precedent falls apart when GW establishes a new precedent.

[- 7eAL -]

One thought on the special CCWs; should they get a bit of a discount on account of being on 1 A models? That is a fairly common GW policy, and 25 points does seem rather steep for a powerfist that only gets a single attack.

To my mind, no. If you look at the new Space Wolf 'dex, you'll notice that both Grey Hunters and Blood Claws pay 25 points for a powerfist.

The new Space Wolves, like Chaos Marines and the Deathwatch presented here, are not exactly 1 Attack models in that they are all equipped with Ultragrit gear, standard. For all intents and purposes they are effectively 2 Attack models. The only weapon that does not benefit from the additional close combat weapon are powerfists and lightning claws, both of which have significant benefits and uses compared to common power weapons.

[Iron Bars]

So because they have to give up 1 attack in exchange for the powerfist or lightningclaw they should get them cheaper? But how much 5pts or 10 pts, getting the pf inline with the powersword in cost (I think).

I agree on not giving them extra special rules just to make them special btw.

[- 7eAL -]

So because they have to give up 1 attack in exchange for the powerfist or lightningclaw they should get them cheaper? But how much 5pts or 10 pts, getting the pf inline with the powersword in cost (I think).

A fist has the added ability to swipe tanks, however, so I would hesitate to give them the same points cost. The lightning claw is closer to the power sword in that rerolling wounds generally causes more wounds, in the same way that more attacks generally causes more wounds, and so those two sharing a points cost I can more likely forgive.

[Iron Bars]

I gues thats what I was trying to say . I don't think there is a way to make powerfists cheaper without making them the default choice.

[Scion of Ferrus]

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but is the Las-Cutter a one or two-handed weapon?

[- 7eAL -]

LASCUTTER

Sorry if this is the wrong place, but is the Las-Cutter a one or two-handed weapon?

It is a 'grenade-like' weapon in that it is used only against vehicles. S10 AP1, I believe, which makes it possible to crack Monoliths up close. Basically replaces meltabombs amongst the Deathwatch.


-----
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Let it be noted that voting has taken Preferred Enemy ahead of close combat weapons options.
That would mean that this section of the options list is dropped, in exchange for Preferred Enemy Xenos. Acceptable?

• Up to two Deathwatch Marines may exchange their boltgun and/or close combat weapon with:
  
• a power weapon or lightning claw: +15 points
• a powerfist: +25 points
• a pair of lightning claws: +30 points

Try to keep old arguments between Preferred Enemy and close combat weapons in mind, though if anyone needs reference I can pull it out of the previous threads.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 24 November 2009 - 04:30 AM.

[Fortnight]

ok so now better close combat weapons are gone but preferred enemy xenos in?

I'm stoked!

Ok so what is the new entry for kill teams?

As far as the run rule goes, I recommend dropping it, in favor of giving them the option to take rhinos with overcharged engines/ repressor with overcharged engines.

The blood angels know how to do this already to anything with a rhino chassis, it would not be a stretch that the deathwatch could figure it out.

Also I have a tank idea, I'll be dropping it in the general dw thread.

[Red 2]

Just to throw my two cents out there. When reading the fluff the Deathwatch tend to go out in Kill Teams which are a squad of about 5-10. When people start talking about making entire Army's of DeathWatch it makes little sense because there is nothing in the fluff that would lead me to believe that the Inquisition would do this. If the Inquisition needs an entire army of Space Marines they have the Red Hunters at their disposal. If they want more than one kill team they may have different kill teams act with different missions. In the end, like all inquisition missions, an Inquisitor will probably first try to acomplish the mission with his retinue, then call storm troopers if they need them, then call the IG if they need a larger force, or the Arbites if they want an arresting force, or whatever Space Marines are around if they need a more badass force, and finally they may call thier specialized troops (ie the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters) last if a highly trained special force is required. For that reason all Inquisition Codexes could be in one book.

Anyway, back on the specific subject of what could / should be in a Kill Team. When reading the fluff a Kill Team has a mix of the best that the Space Marines have to offer. In different stories there are kill teams with Apothecaries, Chaplains, Librarians, Captains, Veterans, Assault packs, etc. A Kill Team is also going to be able to have access via the Inquisition to the best of the best that the Imperium has to offer. Having said that I think anything that limits what your kill team will have access to or in composition makes little sense. A ten man kill team should be the best of the Space Marines and while the points used may reflect that so to should the results.

[- 7eAL -]

Just to throw my two cents out there. When reading the fluff the Deathwatch tend to go out in Kill Teams which are a squad of about 5-10. When people start talking about making entire Army's of DeathWatch it makes little sense because there is nothing in the fluff that would lead me to believe that the Inquisition would do this. If the Inquisition needs an entire army of Space Marines they have the Red Hunters at their disposal. If they want more than one kill team they may have different kill teams act with different missions. In the end, like all inquisition missions, an Inquisitor will probably first try to acomplish the mission with his retinue, then call storm troopers if they need them, then call the IG if they need a larger force, or the Arbites if they want an arresting force, or whatever Space Marines are around if they need a more badass force, and finally they may call thier specialized troops (ie the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters) last if a highly trained special force is required. For that reason all Inquisition Codexes could be in one book.

Traditional Deathwatch fluff does not play a very strong part with respect to force organization here.
The task of Deathwatch Kill-Teams in other armies is usually to carry out special operations, replacing other Veterans with different skills and specializations. Typical Deathwatch fluff pits them against the major xenos races: Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Orks, etc., who are sufficiently great in number and influence that the Imperium needs to dedicate several companies worth of Marines, and dozens of Guard regiments to resist them.
In these situations the Deathwatch must be reserved for specialized missions, usually in small squads behind enemy lines. They go out to handle critical targets and objectives that will allow the main Imperial forces on campaign to gain strategic advantages.

The specialized task of the Deathwatch that is not given to the Guard or even to other Marines, however, is the suppression of more violent, more dangerous races who exist in lesser numbers. These races never occur in such large number or widespread scale that they require major campaigns calling several Chapters and dozens of Guard armies, and therefore never appear in 40K as playable armies but may otherwise appear in Battlefleet Gothic, Dark Heresy, etc. Presumeably, these races are also far more dangerous and require specialized methods of combat as well as information suppression, so only the Deathwatch and Ordo Xenos are skilled or equipped to fight against these races.
In these cases they would have a more "standard" force organization like other Marine Chapters because suppressing an entire minor xenos race without the support of other Imperial forces leaves the Deathwatch to do everything themselves. They must reserve some part of their force to hold ground, some part of their force to form a battle front, and only a small fraction carries out specialized missions because the number of "critical targets and objectives" eventually runs out and the only remaining task is to wipe out the survivors.

The project here aims to represent that force which is not fielded against the major xenos races, and which represents the Deathwatch doing their most serious specialized work for the Ordo Xenos. Admittedly it is very unfluffy to field this force against Eldar, but it would be very fluffy to field this force against minor races such as the Nicassar, (Zoats), Hrud, (Slann), Kroot, Enslavers and so on.

[- 7eAL -]

I am very eagerly awaiting the new Deathwatch role playing game. Perhaps we will finally have inspiration and consensus about our special abilities.