Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

IA: The Knights Seraphic


  • Please log in to reply
150 replies to this topic

#26
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic
Sorry for the long wait in getting a draft sorted out (nearly a month). I've just recently started university so have been very busy. However, I have found the time to amend some things in relation to Apothete and Grey Hunter Ydalir, and have read through the IA and tried rephrasing sentences. Hopefully it isn't so choppy now, though I doubt it will be exceptionally fluid.

So please, the IA is no longer on hold, and I invite all to have a read and give constructive criticism or just question me on some of the aspects of the article, it is all appreciated.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#27
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic
So does no one else have anything to contribute to this IA? Please, I would very much prefer your opinons.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#28
Octavulg

Octavulg

    +LEXICANIUM+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 8,019 posts
  • Location:Thompson, MB, Canada

The Knights of Sieraph


The name's a little unwieldly. Not too bad, but if you're not attached to it you could consider something a bit more concise.

The Knights of Sieraph were formed during the 7th Founding, towards the end of the 32nd Millennium, formed from the geneseed of the most venerable Dark Angels Chapter. Interrogator-Chaplain Atonius led the veteran training cadre that would seek to build the fledgling Chapter. Initially recruits were sourced from a number of planets in nearby systems,most notably the feudal world of Ciasus. The children of the chivalric Knights of Sieraph proved strong recruits for the Chapter, and it was one of their number, Auriel Karnak, who would become the first Chapter Master.


In the above paragraph -

You use formed twice in the first sentence - don't. Generally speaking, not repeating words makes for better writing (unless you're doing it for emphasis).

Having an order with the same name as the Chapter is bloody confusing. I cannot stress enough what a bad idea that is. If you must do it, at least try and make it a little clearer that the Knights of Sieraph were an order first, and that the Chapter is named after them. Right now it can be confusing.

The 'their' in the final sentence could refer to either the Knights-the-Chapter or Knights-the-Order. Might want to revise slightly.

The Chapter continued to grow, and when it was nearing battle strength, it answered a distress call sent by Ciasus. The planet had been beset upon by Orks, who were now attacking the major population centres. Atonius ordered the Chapter into battle, and Auriel Karnak, now a full Battle Brother, and one of the foremost and more skilled warriors in the Chapter asked to be in the front wave.


If he was one of the foremost and more skilled, he wouldn't need to ask.

However, upon arrival it became clear that the Fallen had vanished. Interrogator-Chaplain Atonius, infuriated, left for the Dark Angels with his Veteran cadre. Chapter Master Karnak returned to his quarters on Ciasus, and locked himself inside for a month, not eating, not sleeping. When he finally emerged, he called a meeting with his most senior officers. There he told them of the secret of the Fallen, and the Knights of Sieraph’s own duty in helping the other Unforgiven to catch them all. He also stated that he would not abandon his other duty of protecting the people and the Imperium to correct a past mistake that was not his own. Instead, Karnak split the Chapter. The majority of the Chapter would fight the enemies of the Imperium and protect the Imperium, like proper Knights. However, the first and second Companies would both be very different Veteran Companies dedicated to pursuing the Fallen. In the middle of a campaign, it would be these forces that left, not the Battle Companies. And so it was that the Chapter was truly born.


Er...that's more or less how the current Dark Angels work. Hell, that is how the current Dark Angels work.

There is no longer strife on Ciasus, however, and so the Knights do not fight, and instead just act as recruitment first for the Astartes, and secondly for the PDF.


This will make them poor Space Marines. Lots o' strife and fightin' from an early age - that's what makes a good marine.

The Chapter’s Fortress Monastery is located in the northern mountain range of Ciasus. Its high altitude means that only the most determined and physically capable aspirants and enemies can reach it. The Fortress Monastery is built into two mountains and follows the standard design of all Fortress Monasteries. The only addition is a set of high security cells located deep underneath the mountains. It is here that the Knights of Sieraph holds its imprisoned Fallen, although only the upper echelons of the Chapter know of this.


Hmmm...I'd always thought Fallen were sent back to the Rock no matter who captured them. This is an interesting question about DA successors you have raised...

* * *

Anyway, the rest contains nothing particularly more comment-worthy than the opening.

There's a few overall problems. The writing needs polishing (nothing too bad, don't worry - just needs a bit of proofreading/editing/revising).

But really, the core issue is that there's simply nothing about this chapter that is of particular interest - there's nothing that stands out about them, their homeworld, or their founding. There doesn't seem to be any particularly strong theme to the article (beyond a general impression that they're honorable and knightly), the chapter has no particular quirks or foibles to explore, and there are no particularly massive earth-shaking events which turn everything they've ever known on its ear. Added to this, their history is virtually identical to that of the Dark Angels. I wish I could tell you what you're doing wrong, but the problem is that generally speaking you're not[/]i. It's just that there's nothing particularly [i]right, either.

I think you'd be better off if you emphasized their differences from the Dark Angels slightly more - though how you want to do that is up to you. A good IA (and even a lot of bad ones) can be summarized in, say, a sentence.

Space Wolves - Space Vikings.
Blood Angels - Vampire marines who turn into incurable maniacs who relive their Primarch's death.
Black Templars - Religious xenophobes who crusade across the galaxy and break all the rules.
Imperial Fists - Stubborn siegemasters who roam the galaxy in their mighty fortress-ship (you may note that the Imperial Fists lack theme compared to some other chapters. It shows. They get by on strength of writing and character).

And most importantly, in this case:
Dark Angels - Knightly marines who labor ceaselessly to cover up their brothers' ancient treachery and catch the last of the traitors.

Now, I'm not sure that wholly applies to your chapter - but I certainly can't think of anything else that really does. At best, you've got "while maintaining their responsibilities to the Imperium". And that just sounds like the pitch for a sitcom. :) You could even get by by simply spinning the same theme in a new direction - god knows, maybe they monitor Imperial forces who are close to finding out about the Fallen and ensure they don't - by whatever means necessary (that doesn't seem to fit well - just an example of what you could do).

Somehow you've got to give these guys something that makes them interesting - whether a stronger theme, a more unique idea, or simply improving the writing enough that nobody cares if it's not particularly unique. But what you've got right now simply doesn't work.

Good luck, and I'd be happy to help if you need it.

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

The Octaguide - Your very long guide to very long IAs

Help me update the Big Liber Timeline!

"Wake up. Pray. Train. Pray. Drop screaming through the atmosphere from low orbit into a raging battlefield, and take the fight to enemies that may outnumber us by as little as three to one. Do battle with the most horrific enemies of mankind imaginable and charge into lines of weapons that could shred a tank into ribbons. Afterward, lunch, time permitting." - Marshal Arturas, 15/05/08


#29
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

The name's a little unwieldly. Not too bad, but if you're not attached to it you could consider something a bit more concise.


I'm quite attached to the name as it stands, although as it's already changed a couple of times I wouldn't say no to changing it again if I can think of a good enough one.

In the above paragraph -

You use formed twice in the first sentence - don't. Generally speaking, not repeating words makes for better writing (unless you're doing it for emphasis).

Having an order with the same name as the Chapter is bloody confusing. I cannot stress enough what a bad idea that is. If you must do it, at least try and make it a little clearer that the Knights of Sieraph were an order first, and that the Chapter is named after them. Right now it can be confusing.

The 'their' in the final sentence could refer to either the Knights-the-Chapter or Knights-the-Order. Might want to revise slightly.


Formed will be advised, that must have slipped through the first proof reading.

Understood about the Order and the Chapter having different names. Perhaps instead the Order are called the Knights of (such and such, not Sieraph), while Sieraph was a legendary warrior of their time, but not the founder. When Karnak chose the name he would take inspiration from this legendary figure and name his warriors after Sieraph. Either that or I could just pick another name.

If he was one of the foremost and more skilled, he wouldn't need to ask.


Noted, this will be changed.

Er...that's more or less how the current Dark Angels work. Hell, that is how the current Dark Angels work.


I was under the impression that an entire force of Dark Angels, including the Battle Companies (although they wouldn't know the truth of their redeployment) were redeployed to combat the Fallen. The Knights use the Redemption Fleets so that the Battle Companies don't have to redeploy, and can continue protecting the Imperium. To me it seems the main mission of the Dark Angels is the Hunt, while the Knights see each of their duties as equal to each other.

This will make them poor Space Marines. Lots o' strife and fightin' from an early age - that's what makes a good marine.


That is very true, and I can't believe I missed that, this will be ammended.

Hmmm...I'd always thought Fallen were sent back to the Rock no matter who captured them. This is an interesting question about DA successors you have raised...


I'd imagine that as the Rock can't be everywhere, that Fallen that the Dark Angel Successors capture would be kept by them until such a time that they can be sent back to the Rock.

There's a few overall problems. The writing needs polishing (nothing too bad, don't worry - just needs a bit of proofreading/editing/revising).


Might take a while to get the writing polished but I'll do my best to get there as quickly as possible ;)

But really, the core issue is that there's simply nothing about this chapter that is of particular interest - there's nothing that stands out about them, their homeworld, or their founding. There doesn't seem to be any particularly strong theme to the article (beyond a general impression that they're honorable and knightly), the chapter has no particular quirks or foibles to explore, and there are no particularly massive earth-shaking events which turn everything they've ever known on its ear. Added to this, their history is virtually identical to that of the Dark Angels. I wish I could tell you what you're doing wrong, but the problem is that generally speaking you're not[/]i. It's just that there's nothing particularly [i]right, either.


I was a little worried that the Knights seemed similar to the Dark Angels. I've been trying to play them as equal to the other Chapters, as only the First Founding Chapter should be raised above the others. In the grand scheme of things, the Knights should appear ordinary next to the other Chapters. An event to highlight their difference from the Dark Angels would be good, but I can't seem to think of one that would work. I was hoping the Redemption Fleets would provide that, but as you have said it is still very similar to how the Dark Angels operate.

And most importantly, in this case:
Dark Angels - Knightly marines who labor ceaselessly to cover up their brothers' ancient treachery and catch the last of the traitors.

Now, I'm not sure that wholly applies to your chapter - but I certainly can't think of anything else that really does. At best, you've got "while maintaining their responsibilities to the Imperium". And that just sounds like the pitch for a sitcom. ;) You could even get by by simply spinning the same theme in a new direction - god knows, maybe they monitor Imperial forces who are close to finding out about the Fallen and ensure they don't - by whatever means necessary (that doesn't seem to fit well - just an example of what you could do).


I suppose you are correct, although I can't see much that can make the Chapter stand out from the rest of the Unforgiven. Perhaps they were never told the secret? Or perhaps they were told to refrain from Hunting the Fallen and put forward a respectable face for the Imperium. Or maybe they chose not to Hunt the Fallen. I can't see these working though, and as you have said the IA is bland, and needs something to make it stand out more.

Somehow you've got to give these guys something that makes them interesting - whether a stronger theme, a more unique idea, or simply improving the writing enough that nobody cares if it's not particularly unique. But what you've got right now simply doesn't work.


I shall try to do this, although chances are it will have to me improving the writing, as at the moment I can't think of much else, but I feel that I'm too far in to scrap the idea.

Good luck, and I'd be happy to help if you need it.


Thank you Octavulg, your help has been much appreciated and your comments have been good. I'll start to implement them as soon as I can and also try to think of a way to make the IA a little more interesting without making the Chapter Super Space Marines :P

Thank you again.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#30
Ace Debonair

Ace Debonair

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,761 posts
  • Location:England, where it's probably raining
  • Faction: The Thousand Ideas
Heh, I've not read this in some time.

I like the colour scheme, by the way. Very reminiscent of my Twilight Talons, but your chapter was around first (I think) so I might have claimed your idea by mistake - I always had these guys down in my head as primarily green and silver. :lol:

Trying to characterize a chapter in a new, fresh way is often difficult - moreso when you've got so many details already. Sadly, I'm bereft of ideas at the moment, so I can't donate any. However, I look forward to seeing what you can come up with.

#31
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

Heh, I've not read this in some time.

I like the colour scheme, by the way. Very reminiscent of my Twilight Talons, but your chapter was around first (I think) so I might have claimed your idea by mistake - I always had these guys down in my head as primarily green and silver. :)

Trying to characterize a chapter in a new, fresh way is often difficult - moreso when you've got so many details already. Sadly, I'm bereft of ideas at the moment, so I can't donate any. However, I look forward to seeing what you can come up with.


Thanks, I'd imagine it's coincidence that they are both similar. Of course, it doesn't really matter who had the idea first, I'm sure there have been instances in the past when other Chapters have had similar colour schemes.

Thanks for the support, I hope to have an idea sometime soon and I hope you enjoy reading it if I ever get it down. Thank you again for the support.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#32
Ferrus Manus

Ferrus Manus

    +LEXICANUM+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,723 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Faction: Lions Eternal
Question: Is it really that important to your Chapter that they be led at first by a Chaplain? They aren't trained for command,and thus aren't a likely choice to led a training cadre. It doesn't really add to the Chapter anyway.
 
My WIP Space Marine Chapter

#33
Octavulg

Octavulg

    +LEXICANIUM+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 8,019 posts
  • Location:Thompson, MB, Canada
Really, at this point, the easiest thing to do is find a good twist.

If you want them to be so similar to the Dark Angels, there must be something that's key to the character of the Dark Angels that is different here (some superficial surface differences help, too). Something about why, how, or what they do must be different - and the reasons should, if possible, be interesting.

The core concept of the Dark Angels is the betrayal of the Fallen. Secondary to that is their knightlyness/monasticism, as well as their secrecy.

Now, there are a number of things you could do. Firstly, you could have them see the betrayal of the Fallen in a different light (the marines who founded my Ice Lords, for example, decided that Jonson had betrayed Caliban and the Dark Angels, and now concern themselves with the welfare of Imperial subjects over their personal pride and concerns). Perhaps they seek a greater understanding of why the Fallen turned traitor, that their redemption may be brought about more easily. Perhaps, as previously suggested, they dedicate themselves to ensuring no Imperial authority ever finds out about Luther and Caliban. Perhaps they dedicate themselves to searching for Jonson. Perhaps they secretly keep redeemed Fallen, that they may one day fight for the Emperor again. Or something else.

I don't think you're gonna ditch the knightliness. Perhaps they're more knights than monks? Concerned more with honor than other things? Do they kill Fallen they capture through personal duels, rather than simple execution (this could tie in nicely with the last suggestion, above)?

In regards to secrecy - do they maintain Deathwing and Ravenwing formations? Do they inform them of the Fallen, or not? Do they inform other members of the Chapter? Do they carefully spread misinformation, even throughout their own ranks, to better explain their actions?

Proud author of the Ice Lords, the Bronze Prophets, the Stone Hearts, the Steel Dogs and the The Marines Tenebric.

The Octaguide - Your very long guide to very long IAs

Help me update the Big Liber Timeline!

"Wake up. Pray. Train. Pray. Drop screaming through the atmosphere from low orbit into a raging battlefield, and take the fight to enemies that may outnumber us by as little as three to one. Do battle with the most horrific enemies of mankind imaginable and charge into lines of weapons that could shred a tank into ribbons. Afterward, lunch, time permitting." - Marshal Arturas, 15/05/08


#34
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

Question: Is it really that important to your Chapter that they be led at first by a Chaplain? They aren't trained for command,and thus aren't a likely choice to led a training cadre. It doesn't really add to the Chapter anyway.


I preferred the idea of a Chaplain because a Captain would likely stay on to be the Chapter Master, and therefore any divergent views they might have had that are different from the Dark Angels would have been removed. With a Chaplain, it is more likely that a new Marine of the Chapter would be Chapter Master, and so therefore would be less tied down to the traditions of the Dark Angels, and in this case, more concerned with the martial honour of their homeworld.

Also, IMO a Chaplain would definately be handy in a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter, able to keep an eye on the Chapter and start to form the Inner Circle out of strong souls and minds, although I reckon a Captain could do that too.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#35
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

Really, at this point, the easiest thing to do is find a good twist.

If you want them to be so similar to the Dark Angels, there must be something that's key to the character of the Dark Angels that is different here (some superficial surface differences help, too). Something about why, how, or what they do must be different - and the reasons should, if possible, be interesting.

The core concept of the Dark Angels is the betrayal of the Fallen. Secondary to that is their knightlyness/monasticism, as well as their secrecy.


This is a good idea, on trying to find a twist. Thank you for the advise.

Now, there are a number of things you could do. Firstly, you could have them see the betrayal of the Fallen in a different light (the marines who founded my Ice Lords, for example, decided that Jonson had betrayed Caliban and the Dark Angels, and now concern themselves with the welfare of Imperial subjects over their personal pride and concerns). Perhaps they seek a greater understanding of why the Fallen turned traitor, that their redemption may be brought about more easily. Perhaps, as previously suggested, they dedicate themselves to ensuring no Imperial authority ever finds out about Luther and Caliban. Perhaps they dedicate themselves to searching for Jonson. Perhaps they secretly keep redeemed Fallen, that they may one day fight for the Emperor again. Or something else.


All are good suggestions, I will consider them all and try to come up with my own. Perhaps a Chapter that refuses to leave a campaign to go for the Fallen? Or one who utilise small squads of 'redeemed' Fallen to try and track down other bands of Fallen. Now that would be sneaky and underhand for so Knightly a Chapter. If these squads of 'redeemed' Fallen did the tracking it would make the Redemption Fleets' jobs easier.

I don't think you're gonna ditch the knightliness. Perhaps they're more knights than monks? Concerned more with honor than other things? Do they kill Fallen they capture through personal duels, rather than simple execution (this could tie in nicely with the last suggestion, above)?


You are quite right here, I'm not going to ditch the knightliness, it's one of the things I really like about this Chapter and the Dark Angels (other than the Circles in Circles and Fallen business ;)). I would see them as very much the opposite of the Guardians of the Covenant, who seem to be very monastic, whereas the Knights of Sieraph would be very mobile and proactive. The idea of personal duels seems interesting, giving the Fallen a chance to die with some honour, as a warrior, while of course only being concerned in honour would reflect nicely on them being a Knightly Chapter.

In regards to secrecy - do they maintain Deathwing and Ravenwing formations? Do they inform them of the Fallen, or not? Do they inform other members of the Chapter? Do they carefully spread misinformation, even throughout their own ranks, to better explain their actions?


The Deathwing and Ravenwing formations are combined together on the two Redemption Fleets, although the Ravenwing is different in that some of the Veterans do not use bikes but rather infiltration tactics. As to whether they know the Secret, I'm leaning towards them knowing of the Fallen, so that they better understand that which they are Hunting. If they aren't strong enough to take the information then they're not strong enough to Hunt. As for the rest of the Chapter, I'm not too sure of where I will go with that. The idea of Redemption Fleets is so there is a distinctive part of the Chapter split from the main part, so they can Hunt better. Therefore they would have no need of the information if they aren't in the Redemption Fleets. I'll have to think on this.

Thank you very much for your input Octavulg, it has been very insightful and stimulating.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#36
Ferrus Manus

Ferrus Manus

    +LEXICANUM+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,723 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Faction: Lions Eternal

I preferred the idea of a Chaplain because a Captain would likely stay on to be the Chapter Master, and therefore any divergent views they might have had that are different from the Dark Angels would have been removed. With a Chaplain, it is more likely that a new Marine of the Chapter would be Chapter Master, and so therefore would be less tied down to the traditions of the Dark Angels, and in this case, more concerned with the martial honour of their homeworld.

Also, IMO a Chaplain would definately be handy in a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter, able to keep an eye on the Chapter and start to form the Inner Circle out of strong souls and minds, although I reckon a Captain could do that too.

Fair enough, it just seems silly that you mention him once and then never again. There are many ways that a member of the new Chapter becomes Chapter Master. I mean the first batch of new recruit effectively don't have a homeworld. They meet with their Training Cadre and off they go. I suppose yu could have on rise to the position after the death of the Cadre leader before they found a homeworld.
 
My WIP Space Marine Chapter

#37
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

I preferred the idea of a Chaplain because a Captain would likely stay on to be the Chapter Master, and therefore any divergent views they might have had that are different from the Dark Angels would have been removed. With a Chaplain, it is more likely that a new Marine of the Chapter would be Chapter Master, and so therefore would be less tied down to the traditions of the Dark Angels, and in this case, more concerned with the martial honour of their homeworld.

Also, IMO a Chaplain would definately be handy in a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter, able to keep an eye on the Chapter and start to form the Inner Circle out of strong souls and minds, although I reckon a Captain could do that too.

Fair enough, it just seems silly that you mention him once and then never again. There are many ways that a member of the new Chapter becomes Chapter Master. I mean the first batch of new recruit effectively don't have a homeworld. They meet with their Training Cadre and off they go. I suppose yu could have on rise to the position after the death of the Cadre leader before they found a homeworld.


I'm sure I've mentioned Chaplain Atonius a few times in the Origins part.

Are you suggesting that when the Cadre leader dies then the first Chapter Master is picked from the recruits? That would appear to be a good idea, and one I would be tempted to do. However, it is possible that too many of the original leader's beliefs (as a Captain), would have been passed onto the Chapter preventing any possible divergence. That's just my view on it, although I'd imagine the same could be said of an Interrogator-Chaplain.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#38
Ferrus Manus

Ferrus Manus

    +LEXICANUM+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,723 posts
  • Location:UK
  • Faction: Lions Eternal

Are you suggesting that when the Cadre leader dies then the first Chapter Master is picked from the recruits? That would appear to be a good idea, and one I would be tempted to do. However, it is possible that too many of the original leader's beliefs (as a Captain), would have been passed onto the Chapter preventing any possible divergence. That's just my view on it, although I'd imagine the same could be said of an Interrogator-Chaplain.

Yes, that was what I was suggesting :)
And I do agree with your second point. But I must say I think an Interrogator-Chaplain, who we must remember has the duty of keeping the Chapter strict on its traditions and ways, would probably be more intent on preventing any divergence.
 
My WIP Space Marine Chapter

#39
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

Are you suggesting that when the Cadre leader dies then the first Chapter Master is picked from the recruits? That would appear to be a good idea, and one I would be tempted to do. However, it is possible that too many of the original leader's beliefs (as a Captain), would have been passed onto the Chapter preventing any possible divergence. That's just my view on it, although I'd imagine the same could be said of an Interrogator-Chaplain.

Yes, that was what I was suggesting ;)
And I do agree with your second point. But I must say I think an Interrogator-Chaplain, who we must remember has the duty of keeping the Chapter strict on its traditions and ways, would probably be more intent on preventing any divergence.


Yes, I can see your point here. The main reason the Chaplain was picked was because he wouldn't become Chapter Master, allowing a new recruit to become a Chapter Master, despite whether he had divergent beliefs or not. But perhaps this wasn't thought through as much, and a Captain (or Librarian) would be a better option. I'll have to think on this. Thank you for your insight Ferrus Manus.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#40
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic
Ok guys, I've been a bit busy for a while now with Uni work and countless essays, and haven't had time to properly edit my IA. However, I have developed an idea, and I wanted to know how unfeasible it is. So here's a new unit in the Chapter, known only as the Hunters:

The Knights of Sieraph participate in the Hunt for the Fallen. Like all Unforgiven Chapters, they attempt to capture the accused so that a confession can be heard from them. For most Unforgiven Chapters, this would result in a quick and painless death for the Fallen in question, but the Knights of Sieraph are different.

If the Chaplains feel that the Fallen is truly repentant, then the dishonoured warrior will be given a chance to prove his worth in front of the Emperor’s watching eyes. An honour duel will occur, and if the Fallen wins, then his life will be spared. That Fallen will then be presented with the armour of the Chapter, and used in part of an elite squad, made up other Fallen and one of the Chapter Master’s own personal bodyguard, to constantly scour the galaxy and track down more Fallen.

There is a difference between this unit and the Redemption Fleets. The Redemption Fleets are not always searching for the Fallen, rather they are a dedicated force in the Chapter designed to rapidly react to a Fallen’s presence. This Fallen unit, however, is constantly looking for other Fallen, and will generally not participate in any other events. They are the eyes of the Chapter, and also the Chapter’s greatest secret, for if the Dark Angels learn of the existence of this unit, then it will mean most certain annihilation for the Chapter.



So what do you guys think? I think it could work if told in the right way. Just a little twist to these noble warriors for the Imperium if they're letting Traitors (albiet redeemed Traitors) into their ranks.

Ideas?
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#41
Ace Debonair

Ace Debonair

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,761 posts
  • Location:England, where it's probably raining
  • Faction: The Thousand Ideas
It's risky, both from the in-universe perspective and the point of view of someone writing the tale.

However, who better than a Dark Angels successor to play the secrets game? ;)
Take your time with it, tread carefully, and you could have a cracking story on your hands.

How much of the chapter would be in on this secret? Would all the Knights who know about the fallen know, or only the top-ranking ones?

More intriguingly, are there measures in place to prevent these "Hunters" from rising in rank? Or is it concievable that one day, a Fallen could well be in command of the Knights of Sieraph? :)

Keep playing with this idea - it's a good one. ;)

#42
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

It's risky, both from the in-universe perspective and the point of view of someone writing the tale.

However, who better than a Dark Angels successor to play the secrets game? ;)
Take your time with it, tread carefully, and you could have a cracking story on your hands.

How much of the chapter would be in on this secret? Would all the Knights who know about the fallen know, or only the top-ranking ones?

More intriguingly, are there measures in place to prevent these "Hunters" from rising in rank? Or is it concievable that one day, a Fallen could well be in command of the Knights of Sieraph? :)

Keep playing with this idea - it's a good one. ;)


Thanks for the thumbs up. I was thinking it's risky as well, but it's a bit of flavour to the 'noble' warriors who resort to Traitors.

If I implemented the idea, it would only be the Chapter Master who knew (and his bodyguards), along with the Chief Librarian and Master of Sanctity. No one else would know the secret, and would be mind-wiped if they found out. So yeah, just the top ones would know about. Maybe the Council of Three would know a bit as well.

The Hunters would not be allowed to climb the ranks at all, their existence would be denied by the Chapter to everyone, instead they would be said to be Veteran Marines of the 1st Company if seen (but the true secret of them no discovered). But they would normally remain out of sight, totally.

Thanks again, and glad you like the idea.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#43
Ace Debonair

Ace Debonair

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,761 posts
  • Location:England, where it's probably raining
  • Faction: The Thousand Ideas
Not at all, it's a pleasure. :D

Ideas like this are fun to play with, even when they're not mine. ;)

I'm not a fan of the Dark Angels, as such, but the one thing they have going for them (in my eyes) is the facade they present of being a perfectly ordinary chapter whilst pursuing their own agenda.
To have the Knights of Sieraph take such a behind-the-scenes twist on board not only strengthens the link between the Dark Angels and the Knights, but it's accenting it with a rather substantial difference. To the rest of the Imperium they are your standard-issue Space Marine chapter, robust and knightly. To the majority of the chapter's battle brothers they are a straightforward Dark Angel successor, covertly pursuing and engaging an enemy whose very existence is a stain on the honour they so pride, and only to the elite few is the whole truth known.

In short, I approve of your ideas thus far. :lol:

I'll see if I can't think of anything else useful once my brain recovers from my lack of sleep. :D

#44
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

Not at all, it's a pleasure. :P

Ideas like this are fun to play with, even when they're not mine. ;)

I'm not a fan of the Dark Angels, as such, but the one thing they have going for them (in my eyes) is the facade they present of being a perfectly ordinary chapter whilst pursuing their own agenda.
To have the Knights of Sieraph take such a behind-the-scenes twist on board not only strengthens the link between the Dark Angels and the Knights, but it's accenting it with a rather substantial difference. To the rest of the Imperium they are your standard-issue Space Marine chapter, robust and knightly. To the majority of the chapter's battle brothers they are a straightforward Dark Angel successor, covertly pursuing and engaging an enemy whose very existence is a stain on the honour they so pride, and only to the elite few is the whole truth known.

In short, I approve of your ideas thus far. :)

I'll see if I can't think of anything else useful once my brain recovers from my lack of sleep. :D


Thank you very much for the words of encouragement. It has certainly helped and I feel more confident in taking this idea further, especially if I can get the writing near perfect. I'll look into incorporating it into the IA (and tidying the IA up generally) when I've got a bit more time and am less tired. Thank you again.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#45
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic
OK then, have once again found a little time to quickly go over the IA. As I have quickly gone over it not all the writing will be flawless, but I feel I've ironed out most of the bugs to the Origins section (in particular the name confusion that Octavulg pointed out), along with editing the Homeworld, Combat Doctrine and Beliefs section.

Also, in an attempt to add some variety and a little twist to this Chapter, a new section on "The Hunters", which focuses on what the Knights of Sieraph do to their Fallen has been added under the Organisation subsection.

Hope the reading isn't too hard, and hope everyone enjoys. Constructive criticism always welcome.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#46
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic
No more new thoughts. No suggestions on the idea? Or is the writing still too bad? :evil:
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#47
Ace Debonair

Ace Debonair

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 5,761 posts
  • Location:England, where it's probably raining
  • Faction: The Thousand Ideas
The hunters bit - very nice.

Melta-bombs built into the armour?
"We forgive you this time. Try it again, though, and they'll be picking bits of your corspe off the walls for months."
Forgiveness the space marine way. <_<

#48
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic

The hunters bit - very nice.

Melta-bombs built into the armour?
"We forgive you this time. Try it again, though, and they'll be picking bits of your corspe off the walls for months."
Forgiveness the space marine way. <_<


Indeed, the Knights might be a bit lenient and honourable but they're not stupid, once a traitor, most likely still a bit dodgy :lol:
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#49
DarkGuard

DarkGuard

    ++ DEFENSOR INCITUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI CEDO ++
  • 5,960 posts
  • Location:Essex, England
  • Faction: Knights Seraphic
I've had another thought about something that could give character to the Knights of Sieraph.

What if, due the Auriel Karnak's actions (1st Chapter Master who valued Imperial lifes over the Fallen), led to the Dark Angls excluding the Knights of Sieraph from the Inner Circle? Not sure how they would do this though, probably would involve the murder of a few early Knights of Sieraph Inner Circle members. In reality this would result in a Knightly Chapter that is DA divergent. It would have to be this or the Hunters, and personally I prefer the Hunters, but this is an idea that is just begging to be commented on.
IA: Knights Seraphic - Sons of the Lion, Condemners of the Hunt, Knights of the Imperium.
Seraph's Wings - WIP, short story of the Knights Seraphic
Knights Seraphic special characters
Codex: Space Marines 101 - a basic guide to using Codex: Space Marines
Enemies 101 - a basic guide for fighting the armies of WH40K, by Shadowstalker Grim
Sternguard: a Tactical Analysis - a comprehensive guide on using Sternguard Veteran squads in C:SM

#50
ChaplainMathreyn

ChaplainMathreyn

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 339 posts
  • Location:Arizona!
Would the Dark Angels murder their genetic offspring to keep the secret of The Fallen... A secret?

I have No idea how you could do that... But the idea that the Dark Angels, or one of their successors, wouldn't actively tell a successor about The Fallen... I figure it's more confrontational... Like a successor goes What in the Hell are these guys!?, then their parent Chapter, in an awkward position, has to tell them about the "terrible secret"... Like when a child asks their parents what sex is?... Awk-Ward. :P

Unless I've totally misunderstood your idea, that is.

But, yeah, I like the Hunters, too.
No fear. No pity. No remorse.




2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users