21 replies to this topic

[Brother Tyler]

See this post for the current version of the rules for Chaos Space Marine Terminators in Space Hulk.

(Note that there is another discussion on Chaos Terminators for the 3rd edition of Space Hulk that can be found in the Other Games forum here). I'm taking a slightly different approach to the subject, though, and I don't want to hijack that discussion, so I've created this one within the Homegrown Rules forum in order to maintain the differences between the two discussions.)

Fans of the 1st edition of Space Hulk might remember the rules for using Traitor Terminators. These rules appeared in White Dwarf magazine and can also be found in Space Hulk Campaigns, and they were featured in a dedicated mission named "Contract Revoked". The latest edition of Space Hulk is arguably the best, containing a streamlined version of the 1st edition rules with elements of the two expansions, Deathwing and Genestealer, in a great (but expensive) package. While the models and storyline of the game return to the focus on the Blood Angels, the rules for the Terminators are pretty much suitable for any loyalist Chapter. They don't have quite the flexibility of the Deathwing or the Space Wolves, but they'll do in a pinch. This means that players of any loyalist Space Marine army might substitute their own appropriately kitted out terminators for those that come in the game. However, Chaos Space Marine players are left out in the cold. So I'd like to rectify that in order to give Chaos Space Marine players a way to play with their beloved miniatures.

The original Traitor Terminator Force List was intended to allow the Chaos Space Marines to replace the Genestealers in most missions, although there were provisions for using the traitors in place of the loyalists. This is important because we have to determine the scope of what we're going to do with these rules. Chaos being Chaos, as a replacement for the Genestealers, there aren't really a lot of restrictions that would be imposed on the list. However, in order to properly replace the loyalists, the resulting force should be balanced appropriately. I don't know exactly how I want to do this yet, so a little input would help.

It's also important to remember that there have been some advances/refinements in the game background and rules since the days of 1st edition Space Hulk. For example, while the Space Hulk Chaos Space Marine Terminators were equipped with storm bolters, the rules and background for Chaos Space Marines describe how they use combi-bolters instead. Also, the individual Chaos Space Marine Terminators have a little more flexibility in how they can be equipped, and they start with power weapons vice power fists. And we shouldn't forget the way that Chaos Space Marines can be dedicated to specific powers. We'll probably address dedication to specific powers later, though, and focus on a generic force of Chaos Space Marines for right now.

What I want to start with is a straight conversion of the Terminators that come in the game (i.e., the way they're equipped) into Chaos Space Marine terms. That's just a starting point, though, as a simple conversion wouldn't adequately represent the differences that should exist between the loyalists and the traitors.

So we have twelve miniatures:

• Five of the Blood Angels are equipped with storm bolters and power fists. Using baseline conversion, these become Chaos Space Marine Terminators equipped with combi-bolters and power weapons.
• One of the Blood Angels is equipped with a storm bolter and chainfist. A baseline Chaos Space Marine Terminator conversion would be equipped with a combi-bolter and chainfist.
• One of the Blood Angels is equipped with an assault cannon and power fist. His Chaos Space Marine Terminator counterpart would be equipped with a reaper autocannon and power weapon.
• One of the Blood Angels is equipped with a heavy flamer and power fist. The traitor version would be equipped with a heavy flamer and power weapon.
• One of the Blood Angels is equipped with twin lightning claws. Luckily, our Chaos Space Marine evil twin would also be equipped with twin lightning claws.
• One of the Blood Angels is equipped with a storm bolter and power weapon. His Chaos Space Marine Terminator counterpart would be equipped with a combi-bolter and power weapon.
• One of the Blood Angels is equipped with a thunder hammer and storm shield. There is no Chaos Space Marine Terminator equivalent for these items. I'm going to give the counterpart model a combi-bolter and power weapon for now.
• The Blood Angels Librarian is equipped with a storm bolter and force weapon. His Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer counterpart would have a combi-bolter and force weapon.

Now Chaos Space Marine Terminators may exchange their power weapons for power fists (among other things), so it doesn't seem inappropriate to give at least one of these guys a power fist. A more important option is for the combi-bolter to be exchanged for a combi-weapon. This is going to reduce the bolter shootiness of the model while giving him a single special weapon shot for the game (assuming we stick with the single shot convention).

So now we have to change the models up a bit in order to make them suitably different from their Blood Angels counterparts. Right now I'm just talking about equipment - there are some rules issues that also have to be addressed.

What I'm thinking is that one or two of the combi-bolter/power weapon models will exchange their power weapon for a power fist. One or two other comb-bolter/power weapon models will exchange their combi-bolter for combi-weapons (and I'm focused on the combi-flamer and the combi-meltagun). The combi-meltagun is a straightforward exchange for the penetration of a power fist while the combi-flamer augments the heavy flamer. So combi-flamers will change up Chaos Space Marine tactics a bit. This, of course, means that there will only be one or two models carrying combi-flamers. Based on not having a thunder hammer/storm shield combo, we started with six models equipped with combi-bolters and power weapons. Going on the conservative side, I'll adjust this to:

• 2x Combi-bolter & power weapon
• 1x Combi-bolter & power fist
• 1x Combi-bolter & lightning claw (have to figure out what benefit a single lightning claw might have)
• 1x Combi-flamer and power weapon
• 1x Combi-meltagun and power weapon

There will probably be a few other models that exchange a piece of kit here and there in order to suitably distinguish these models from those that still follow the false Emperor.

The Chaos Space Marines are a little different when it comes to assault. They are less strong, but they tend to strike more quickly. This is based on the exchange of the power fist for a power weapon, though that isn't a universal exchange. Somehow, though, we have to find a way to represent this in a manner that works both against Genestealers and against Blood Angels.

The Chaos Space Marines will lose a slight bit of shootiness in the combi-bolters. We need to represent this properly, though, which is going to take some figuring out. If we compare the WH40K storm bolter to the combi-bolter, the key difference is that the storm bolter is Assault 2 while the combi-bolter is Rapid and Twin-Linked. We have to consider the translation of the storm bolter rules from WH40K to SH, then figure out how the combi-bolter might then be translated into SH. So how do we represent this difference in Space Hulk? And what is the overall impact of this change on the Chaos Space Marine Terminators? The storm bolter can move and shoot its full allowance each time, but the combi-bolter can't, so this loss in capability must be represented.

We also have to look at the Reaper Autocannon that the traitors have compared to the loyalists' Assault Cannon. The differences are that the Reaper Autocannon has twice the range (which is inconsequential based on the range of the AC in SH), it has one higher Str, but it fires 2 less shots and isn't Rending. So we again have to look at how the rules for the Assault Cannon in SH represent it's WH40Kness, then try to similarly translate the RA. Another very important thing to remember is that the Assault Cannon is unreliable compared to the Reaper Autocannon, so we have to ensure that the RA has appropriately reliable rules.

I haven't addressed the specifics on these rules yet because I'd like to get some feedback before I make any proposals. Some might disagree with my assumptions/conclusions, so I want to be sure that any errors I may have made are pointed out.

For those that have seen the other rules for Chaos Space Marine Terminators, there is one thing that I think has lots of potential and which I might incorporate. I'll quote it here.

Chaos Terminators are the most experienced warriors of their kind and each are veterans of hundreds of battles over thousands of years. Each is easily the match of a loyalist Terminator Sergeant. All Chaos Terminators add +1 to their highest dice result as Sergeants do.

I don't know that I'll do exactly this, but both the basis and the resulting rule make sense to me (right now).

Anyways, I'd like to hear what others think before we move on.

Edited by Brother Tyler, 14 October 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[Brother Ariman]

Well for the Combi-bolters we could make it that they have
-a max range of 12 spaces but always count as having sustained fire.
-or perhaps a max of twelve spaces and re-roll one die per shot.

And for the Chaos Sorcerer I believe that he should have pure destructive powers to contrast with his "good" counterpart that has defensive and offensive powers.
Ideas-
-20 psi points
- Force Staff- works exactly the same as regular librarian's force axe
-Second in command- Chaos sorcerers often find themselves as lieutenants to Chaos Lords, meaning that they must be some of the most powerful Marines in his army even for a veteran of 1000 years. +2 in hand to hand.
-Psychic storm as seen in SH rulebook.
-Fireball- 5 psi points all models in that same piece as the sorcerer are killed on a 3+ including fellow terminators, the sorcerer kills himself on a 6+
prescience- see SH rulebook.

[Somar]

storm bolter/combi bolter: i would make it simple and keep them the same. SH rules are 40k rules-light and they are similar enough to just translate them into the SH rules as they are

melta/flamer combi bolters: meltas get one shot that kills a single target on 3+ on 2 dice (i would say 2+ on one die but it should have a good chance of taking out a brood lord too). flamers get one shot like a heavy flamer, just need 4+ to kill stuff. the bolter part only gets 1 dice , can never jam though.
reaper auto cannon: 2dice killing on 5+, sustained fire, no chance to blow up. other then that, same as AC
power fist/power weapon: one is faster, the other one more powerful, i suggest keeping them the same.

sorcerer powers: i would make one warp time, costs 1 to cast and the sorcerer gets to re-roll all hits (ranged and CC) till his next turn.
another one could be aura of terror (or tendrils of the warp or whatever), 2 points to cast, cast on a section with persistent effect, all movement costs are doubled till the beginning of his next turn.

[Brother Tyler]

SH rules are 40k rules-light...

This isn't quite accurate. Yes, the Space Hulk rules are lighter than standard WH40K rules, but that's because of the limited armies/models in use. There are also things that are quite a bit more complicated than standard WH40K, such as overwatch, sustained fire, guard, psi points, etc. The rules for weapons can be simplified because each side has unique capabilities and the rules can be tailored to account solely for those capabilities. So the rules for storm bolters shooting are a simplification because all they have to account for is the Genestealers. They wouldn't be as accurate when applied against another type of enemy with different attributes, say Chaos Space Marine Terminators. This was the dilemma I found myself in last night as I went through everything.

The other issue is that the original rules for Chaos Space Marine Terminators were actually the original rules and background for Chaos Space Marine Terminators. They were for all intents and purposes identical to loyalist Space Marines. The background material has evolved over the years, though, and the Chaos Space Marine Terminators are distinct from their loyalist counterparts. GW has established a precedent in representing the updating of background material by replacing the old Genestealer Patriarchs with Broodlords.

I agree with the principle, though, that the rules we develop should be as simple as possible. I maintain, though, that it is important to represent the differences where necessary.

In the case of the Chaos Space Marine Terminators, the WH40K version are slightly less capable at normal shooting because they have combi-bolters instead of storm bolters. There is a miniscule difference, but that difference is important. Also, this helps to counter the enhancements that would be gained in assault, especially if the idea to make Chaos Space Marine Terminators as effective as loyalist Terminator Sergeants is incorporated (I'm not 100% sold on that idea, but it sounds pretty good to me right now).

I don't know the solution, though I'm mulling some ideas over. While I initially thought that applying the twin-linked principle of re-rolling would work, I quickly realized that it effectively allows the combi-bolter to make 2 shots, which isn't right. Also, though there have been suggestions to affect the sustained fire of combi-bolters, this is absolutely contrary to the background material and WH40K rules. The combi-bolter is a twin-linked rapid fire weapon. It can shoot 2 times as normal at short distance, even when on the move, but can only shoot 1 time at longer range. I think that the difference to be captured should be here. What I'm thinking is that the combi-bolter shoots just like the storm bolter within 6 spaces, but only rolls 1 time at over 6 spaces. No re-rolls because that makes it just like a storm bolter - or perhaps re-rolling on a 1 under certain conditions. No jamming, though.

And my initial ideas for power weapons won't work because they duplicated something else (Sergeants, I think). The key to power weapons is the WYSIWYG representation, and I think that there should be a difference between a power sword (which can parry) and a power mace/axe/whatever. I still haven't worked out a solution.

Overall, I think that the differences in wargear are important. Otherwise the Chaos Space Marine Terminators might as well use the exact same rules as loyalist Terminators, and then there isn't really a point in developing any rules.

I still haven't really looked at the Sorcerers because I want to ensure that the basic wargear/rules are aligned properly before addressing more advanced stuff.

One thing I alluded to above but which I haven't discussed much is the fact that how the Chaos Space Marine Terminators are used is of the utmost importance. If they're used in place of the loyalist Terminators, then it's easy to develop the rules. However, if they're used against the loyalist Terminators, then all of the rules (including those for the loyalist Terminators) need to be re-worked. One solution is to address the rules in order to represent different matchups (still using D6, which is the GW way). Another alternative is to develop difference dice results based on the matchup (e.g., using D8 or D12 against certain opponents). That's pretty complicated, though, so I don't really want to do that. As I said above, though, the rules for the various wargear items are based on a Terminator v. Genestealer matchup. If the pairing is changed, the results (and therefore the rules) must change or proper game development isn't taking place. This fact and the intent to keep things as simple as possible is, I suspect, the reason that GW kept to the Space Marines versus Genestealers. We'll see what GW does in future issues of WD.

The more and more I look at the rules and consider the development process, the more and more complex things become in order to develop good rules. That sucks, but it poses an interesting challenge.

For now, I'm developing these rules so that the Chaos Space Marine Terminators take the place of the Blood Angels, keeping things simple and not changing the baseline rules.

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, I've been mulling this over some more over the last couple of days and have decided on the simpler solution.

To reiterate, I'm developing these rules based on the Chaos Space Marine Terminators replacing the Blood Angels. So they're still facing Genestealers. This keeps things nice and simple.

Also, I've decided against incorporating the idea of making Chaos Space Marine Terminators better in assault than their loyalist counterparts. Part of this is the more recent fluff about more recent traitors such as the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs, etc. The Chaos Space Marines aren't just those that turned during the Horus Heresy. Even those traitors that belong to the original traitor legions aren't necessarily from the time of the Horus Heresy - some/many are more recent recruits that have been brought into the legions by a variety of methods.

So this comes down to an exercise in developing rules to represent the necessary differences.

Combi-bolters can be treated like storm bolters.

Combi-weapons will be very similar, but only roll 1 dice when shooting at targets over 6 spaces away. I don't know if we have to incorporate some mechanism to ensure that there is a fair chance of jamming in this instance. These weapons will also have 1-shot special weapon rules. Somar provided some thoughts. Here is what I was thinking (before I saw Somar's input).

The flamer would be like the heavy flamer, but would have a reduced chance of killing enemy models, 4+ (the same as Somar suggested).

I hadn't gotten to combi-meltaguns or combi-plasmaguns yet. The more that I think about it, the more I think that there would only be one combi-flamer and one combi-meltagun if these rules develop fixed squads like the Blood Angels Terminator Squads in the Space Hulk game. Otherwise it might be too difficult to balance things with the missions. Somar's idea isn't that bad, though I'm still going to look at things to see if I think they'll work.

As for reaper autocannons, I'd also written down 2 dice and killing on a 5+.

This leaves the power weapons and the Sorcerer.

And if we want to get really deep, cult-Terminators. Those will be an after-thought, though.

[Somar]

here are some more ideas of mine that you can mull over:

chaos sorcerer: equipped with a force sword and combi bolter, force sword gives him a parry, but he can only pump 3 psi points into his sword at one time to modify the CC result.

khorne terminators: get one extra CC dice if they initiate close combat.

nurgle terminators: you cannot claim sustained fire bonuses when shooting at them.

tzeenth terminators: can claim sustained fire bonuses when walking, when no sorcerer is on the board they cannot use command points.

slaaneesh terminators: sonic weapons, sonic blaster, as combi bolter when moving, 3 dice when standing still. blast master, something close to a AC.


and i was thinking of a new power for the sorcerer
maw of mikomey: send a devouring maw down a corridor that eats the first model on a 2+, second one on a 3+ etc till the rest need 6+, it stops when it hits a wall. all surviving models are slimed! (eww)
cost: 3 points

warp sight: reveal one blip within 12 squares and choose facing of models revealed.
cost: 1 point

[Frosty the Pyro]

Couple of notes,

1. I would remove the sustained fire from combi bolters (or only alow the sustained fire bonus at ranges less than 12 (or posibly 9)), alternitively they could only role 1d6 at the longer ranges
2. combi plasma would have one shot that kills on a 4+ on two die (melta could be 4+ on 3 die)
3. If going from 40k-->hulk the power weapon would be strictly worse vs genestealers (as it has less strength, and its extra speed doenst matter because stealers are still faster). Of course in 40k thunder hammers provied no bonus over a fist vs stealers, and the power sword is strictly worse, yet in hulk both are better than the fist (hamer getting +1, and sword getting "parry"). So just give the chaos folks parry, this should balance slightlly their reduced ranged abilities.
4. Another thought on combi weapons would be to allow the other mode to have a ammo limite (3 melta, 6 plasma, 2 flamer) as just one shot of the plasma or melta wont be to big a deal against the vertiable hord of genestealers, and unless the broodlord was in play (or enemy terminators) they would seem like a bad idea

[I AM THE AWESOME]

Combi-melta idea:

basically, 6 square range, 1 die, kills stealers on a 2+. Auto-destroys doors. Kills broodlord on a (? Not sure about this one. 4+?)

Other than that, keep it up you guys.

[Brother Tyler]

Simplifications, just to keep things neat and tidy...

And keep in mind that the objective is to have the Chaos Space Marine Terminators replace the loyalist Space Marines. We might look at an expansion to have Space Marines versus Chaos Space Marines later.

The Sorcerer functions identically to the Librarian.

Combi-bolters and combi-weapons are different.

Combi-bolters follow the same rules as storm bolters.

Combi-weapons incorporate a bolter (only roll 1 D6 for shooting) and either a flamer (similar to heavy flamer, but reduced chance to destroy a model) or a meltagun (excellent chance to destroy a model/door, including the Broodlord, but no area/persistent effect).

Each of the special weapon portions of combi-weapons is one-shot, so there will be multiples of each in the models. The meltagun replaces the chainfist, so probably only two of these. The flamer replaces a heavy flamer, so three or four of these. The tradeoff here is that instead of just having one model with a heavy flamer and the heavy flamer being his only ranged weapon, the Chaos Space Marines have several, but each has only one shot. The complication here is that we need to create an additional mission status board to keep track of each model's combi-weapon shots (since missions that rely upon one or both of these special weapons will require multiple models with the same weapon in order to give the Chaos Space Marine player a chance).

Autocannon replaces assault cannon. Less dice rolled, but higher chance to hit (probably resulting in a similar overall chance of destroying a target).

Instead of power fists, these guys sport power weapons and lightning claws, though each will have it paired with a combi-bolter/weapon. We'll need to explore the impact. The breakdown of sword/axe/maul for power weapons has complicated things a bit, and the single lightning claw versus the paired lightning claw of the loyalists also presents and interesting wrinkle. I'm waiting for Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Horus Heresy I: Betrayal (the latter has been "despatched" to my house ) before we start working on this one. Considering the fact that some Chaos Space Marine warbands have turned in recent years and might sport more familiar loyalist loadouts (i.e., power fists), we have an interesting challenge. Also, Chaos Space Marine Terminators haven't had access to thunder hammers and storm shields in recent editions. We'll see if that changes in the new codex. What I see is that the Chaos Space Marine Terminators overall will be slightly worse at shooting (lots of combi-weapons that only give 1 D6), but will be slightly better at close assault. The trick is going to be in preserving a balance similar to that which the loyalists face (so I think that the number of combi-weapons will have to be minimal). We'll see.

While I'd earlier quoted a source mentioning how Chaos Space Marine Terminators are easily the equal of their loyalist Sergeant counterparts, I think that the source might be outdated and doesn't take into account more recently turned warbands. So we'll probably ignore that one. The improvements to close assault, then, will largely rely upon the weapons. Models with single lightning claws might work similarly to paired lightning claws, a power maul might work like a thunder hammer (but not against doors), etc. We'll use axes as a "no modifier" power weapon, equivalent to a power fist.

So a quick comparison gives us:

Terminator Models

Loyalist	Chaos
Captain with power sword and storm bolter	Chaos Lord with power sword and combi-bolter
Chaplain with crozius arcanum and storm bolter	Dark Apostle with power maul and combi-bolter*
Librarian	Sorcerer
Sergeant with power sword and storm bolter	Aspiring Champion with power sword and combi-bolter
Sergeant with thunder hammer and storm shield	Aspiring Champion with power maul and combi-bolter
Terminator with assault cannon and power fist	Terminator with autocannon and power fist
Terminator with heavy flamer and power fist	Terminator with lightning claw and combi-flamer
Terminator with chainfist and storm bolter	Terminator with power axe and combi-meltagun
Terminator with twin lightning claws	Terminator with lightning claw and combi-flamer
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter	Terminator with power fist and combi-flamer
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter	Terminator with power axe and combi-meltagun
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter	Terminator with power fist and combi-bolter
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter	Terminator with power fist and combi-bolter
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter	Terminator with power axe and combi-bolter

*Yes, I got the memo about Dark Apostles not having an option to take Terminator armour, but many of you have already converted models for this and Space Hulk doesn't necessarily have to follow the normal rules. So if you want to use them for this project, go ahead.

That's just an initial assessment. We'll see how we modify that through discussion. I suspect that we might give a few of the combi-flamer/meltagun models either power mauls or lightning claws.

[JeffJedi]

Combi-Bolters = Storm Bolters sound good. There isn't that much difference on the Space hulk scale.

This leaves us room to make the Bolter part of a combi-weapon slightly weaker. This could one day be used for models armed only with Bolters, IE Power Armored Space Marines in a future project.

One dice shooting may be too weak however. Another idea might be to remove the fire on the move option or limit move and fire to only 1D. Standing still could still get two shots.

I agree on these two areas:
The Power Axe could be treated as a Power Fist. This would simplify matters. They are both AP2 and Unwieldy in 40k. Close enough in my opinion.

The Single Lightning Claw and the Powersword also could be treated the same as they are very close in 40k.

[Emperors Immortals]

One quick idea (as im not too familiar with Space Hulk past 2nd ed.) is to allow the Chaos Terminators veteran status by allocating a small pool of re-rolls in addition to not having the "Jam" rule. This could represent a small difference in combi-bolter efficiency compared to the storm-bolter. It could also be allowed under action point costs.

Combi weapons limited to melta and flamer - what exactly do you want the melta to do?

[Brother Tyler]

Yes, I agree that just 1 D6 for shooting combi-weapon bolters might be too weak. I think that the adjustment we'll make is that models shooting the bolter portion of a combi-weapon roll 2D6 at targets up to 12 squares away, including on Overwatch. And this reintroduces jams for them, providing some degree of balance. So the trade off for a combi-weapon is that shooting at longer ranges has a lower chance of success, shooting at shorter ranges is just as effective as a storm/combi-bolter, and Chaos Space Marine Terminators are slightly more effective in close assault due to the changes in weapons. The special weapon portions of combi-weapons is slightly less effective in that each only has one shot, but there are more of them (providing slightly more tactical flexibility).

As for the combi-melta, my original thinking was that it would effectively automatically destroy a door, just as the chainfist (making these guys highly sought after in certain missions). I'm also thinking that these might have a chance to overcome the Brood Lord's Hard to Kill ability. The single shot makes choosing the time to use the meltagun a nice little tactical challenge, though having two of these guys provides some flexibility.

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, my copy of the new Chaos Space Marines codex arrived in the mail yesterday, so I'm updating everything based on the options available therein. It turns out that we might not need quite as many changes as I'd initially thought. I'll post the initial proposal below.

[Brother Tyler]

Return to INDEX

CHAOS SPACE MARINE TERMINATORS (changes)

Warbands of Chaos Space Marines go forth from the Eye of Terror to despoil the worlds of the Emperor, enslave his followers and steal his wealth so that they might carry out further attacks. Thus, the punitive raids of the Chaos Space Marines are an ever-present threat to the worlds of the Imperium. In addition to the ancient warships in which the Traitor Legions fled the defeat at Terra, warbands of Chaos Space Marines capture drifting space hulks and refit them to use as vast battle barges carrying thousands of troops. Often, they must first purge these space hulks of malevolent lifeforms within.

Chaos Space Marine Terminators follow the normal rules for Terminators, except as noted below. Most of the differences are a result of the different weapons carried by Chaos Space Marine Terminators.

TERMINATOR CHAOS LORD
Terminator Chaos lords benefit from the Master of War and Rites of Battle rules as Terminator Captains. The standard weapons for a Terminator Chaos Lord are a power sword and combi-bolter, though players may opt to use the Expanded Weapons Rules for models equipped with different weapons.

TERMINATOR DARK APOSTLE
Terminator Dark Apostles benefit from the Combat Veteran and Inspirational rules as Terminator Chaplains. The standard weapons for a Terminator Dark Apostle are the power maul and combi-bolter, though players may opt to use the Expanded Weapons Rules for models equipped with different weapons.

TERMINATOR SORCERER
Terminator Sorcerers benefit from the Combat Veteran, Psi Points, and Psychic Powers rules as Librarians. The standard weapons for a Terminator Sorcerer are the force axe and combi-bolter, though players may opt to use the Expanded Weapons Rules for models equipped with different weapons.

TERMINATOR CHAMPION
Terminator Champions benefit from the Space Marine Sergeant Bonus as Terminator Sergeants.

TERMINATOR
Chaos Space Marine Terminators follow the standard rules that apply to regular Space Marine Terminators. The only real difference is in the range of weapons combinations that Chaos Space Marine Terminators carry. Refer to the Expanded Weapons Rules for explanations of the combinations listed below.

The standard Chaos Space Marine Terminator force consists of the following:

TERMINATOR MODELS
Loyalist | Chaos
Captain with power sword and storm bolter | Chaos Lord with power sword and combi-bolter
Chaplain with crozius arcanum and storm bolter | Dark Apostle* with power maul and combi-bolter
Librarian with force axe and storm bolter | Sorcerer with force axe and combi-bolter
Sergeant with power sword and storm bolter | Terminator Champion with power sword and combi-bolter
Sergeant with thunder hammer and storm shield | Terminator Champion with power maul and combi-bolter
Terminator with assault cannon and power fist | Terminator with reaper autocannon and power axe
Terminator with heavy flamer and power fist | Terminator with heavy flamer and power fist
Terminator with chainfist and storm bolter | Terminator with chainfist and combi-bolter
Terminator with twin lightning claws | Terminator with twin lightning claws
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter | Terminator with power fist and combi-bolter
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter | Terminator with power fist and combi-bolter
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter | Terminator with power axe and combi-bolter
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter | Terminator with power axe and combi-bolter
Terminator with power fist and storm bolter | Terminator with power axe and combi-bolter

* Yes, I know that Dark Apostles can't take terminator armour under the standard WH40K rules, but many players have converted such minis already so I've included them here.

Edited by Brother Tyler, 01 September 2013 - 11:15 AM.
D'oh! The table was killed in the edit (due to the new software), so I've turned it into a text-based chart.

[Brother Tyler]

Return to INDEX

CHAOS SPACE MARINE TERMINATORS (clean)

[cut and paste and edit here]

[elohimalpha]

Are there any plans to make options for giving Marks to these guys? Could be an easy way to add another layer of strategy.

[Brother Tyler]

Our initial rules won't include marks of Chaos, but we might look at those later (especially when we get to the Long War, where Chaos faces loyalists).

[elohimalpha]

Have you worked out what warband the Terminators will be a part of? If the marks of Chaos are out for the initial setup, I'm assuming we'll be seeing a Chaos Undivided chapter? I'm not all that knowledgeable about Chaos chapters, but it would be nice to see something other than the Black Legion. If there's a vote - Word Bearers!

[Brother Tyler]

I think that it will really come down to whichever warband it is for which we have suitable miniatures - if someone posts pictures of the Black Legion, Black Legion it is. On the other hand, if someone posts pictures of the Red Dogs of Fury*, then we'll go with the Red Dogs of Fury. We'll craft the storyline around the warband.


*Yes, I just pulled that name out of my keester.

[elohimalpha]

Ah, ok - so this phase is more just "generic Chaos rules development" than mirroring the official game (by which I mean no real background/character fluff for the Termies)? Not that that's a negative - the rules have to be in place first, obviously!

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I'm going to move the most recent replies to the expanded weapons discussion. I've been quietly (and invisibly) working on those rules, but won't make them visible until I have the initial set finished. I'm going for a more straightline translation from basic WH40K into Space Hulk, applying (my interpretations of) Space Hulk mechanics.

[Brother Tyler]

Okay, I guess we're done here. For now. If anyone wants to revisit this discussion, let me know in the suggestions thread.