49 replies to this topic

[Sister Acacia]

Current thoughts (thanks Miko!) are: Rocket Launchers with Melta Rockets, and a special, fluffy rule that grants the Stealth USR
Discussion on Relentless (generally shot down)
Special long-range bolter with special ammo: discuss! (Tempest? Sniper? Melta?)
Incendiary mortars, aye or nay? Likewise Heavy Flamers - Heavy Flamers in, Regular Mortars (incendiary a possibility) also worth considering
Who likes Auto-cannons?
Miko's idea: Possible Purgus transport vehicle: do we want them moving and all shooting, with an armour value on top of that?
Miko also suggests possibly adding Special Orders. Thought?
Actual unit entry added
Possibility of the VSS being able to take Tempest rounds

So, I couldn't find any discussion on Retributor squads, and thought "why not?"

Now as it stands, people only take Heavy Bolters - which is a shame for those who bought and painted a 2xHB 2xMM 1xVSS (Stormbolter) squad way back when. This probably means Retributors with Heavy Bolters are about right - seeing as people do indeed choose to field them - and Multi-Meltas are too expensive.

So, thoughts:
1. As a unit it would cost 65 and have a VSS and 4 Retributors, all with the regular statlines. No free grenades, because if they're assaulting something, they're doing it wrong. (Reason for not raising their cost like those of regular Sisters: regular Sisters are great as a Troops choice, but the actual cost and value of Retributors is in the weapons)
2. May have up to 5 additional Retributors for +11 points each.
3. Up to four models may replace their bolter with:

• A Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta for 15 points (ish)
• A Heavy Flamer (with Holy Promethium?) for 10 points, give or take
• A Mortar for 5 points? Or maybe free? Or possibly no mortars at all, but it's a pretty low-tech, easy-to-maintain weapon that suits urban warfare (if you don't care about damaging buildings, and in 40k you don't because half of them are ruins anyway) and is an explosive shell so not *too* dissimilar to the bolter.

4. If the unit numbers ten models, any model may equip their bolters with Latheworld hyper-penetrator rounds for +10 points each or Tempest rounds for +5 points each.
Latheworld Hyper-Penetrator: 12" S 5 AP 5 Heavy 2 Rending
Tempest: 24" S 4 AP 6 Rapid Fire, any unit that takes any casualties loses any charging bonuses in their next assault phase.

Thoughts: we could still allow only the VSS to get Tempest rounds for her Bolter. This wouldn't be much use when guarding Exorcists (the enemy is almost guaranteed to eat them up, striking last or otherwise, if they survive the heavy bolter shots or whatever. They are an expensive shield for the Exorcist, but they hurt the enemy first with shooting). What it would do is put them in a position to support their own assault units - Retributors shoot at genestealers, genestealers take a handful of casualties but also are afflicted by the Tempest rounds, Seraphim assault genestealers and get to act first.

I like the idea of encouraging Sisters to keep units close together (HQ-inspired Faith is a great example here), it seems fluffy and also provides a sort of weakness in the form of encouraging enemies to use templates/blasts on them, or to spread out so the Sisters have to choose between losing their "stay close" benefits or losing manoeuvrability to the enemy. Likewise I like to have units support each other.

But it's just a thought. One model in a unit of 5-10 getting one type of special ammo to help with teamwork tactics, maybe it's a good idea, maybe it's unnecessary.

5. Transport Options: regular Rhino, Repressor or Immolator. (Rhino Charger? Purgus?)

I can't really think of much else that could be done, other than *possibly* letting a pair form a heavy weapon team for something like a Flamestorm Cannon (or whatever the one on the LRR is), a HKM or something, but I don't see that as really being necessary.

Special Bolter: Range 48" S4 AP3 Heavy 2 (WYSIWYG: add to the bolter length. This is easy enough. Then add a small pipe for a long barrel.)
Faith-Fire Cannon: Range: 36" S 5 AP 4 Heavy 3 Blast, No Cover (WYSIWYG: you could basically use a Thunderfire Cannon)

UNIT PROFILE

Retributor Squad

Unit	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Sister Superior	3	4	3	3	1	3	2	9	3+
Sister Retributor	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	8	3+

Retributor Squad {Heavy Support}.......... 65 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry	1 Sister Superior 4 Sisters Retributor	Power armour Boltgun Sister Superior also has bolt pistol	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful	May take a transport: Rhino Immolator Repressor Possibly a Purgus (see Miko's post below)

• May include up to 5 additional Sisters Retributor: +11 points per model
• The Sister Superior may exchange her boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
  
  • a close combat weapon: free
  • a storm bolter: +5 points
  • a combi-flamer, -melta or -stake crossbow: +10 points
• The Sister Superior may take meltabombs: +5 points
• If the unit numbers no more than 5 models, the unit may take krak grenades: +5 points
• If the unit numbers 6 models or more, the unit may take krak grenades: free
• Up to four Sisters Retributor may exchange their boltguns with:
  
  • ~maybe a Mortar~ +5 points ~or free?~
  • a Heavy Flamer (with Holy Promethium?) +10 points
  • a Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta +15 points

Edited by Sister Acacia, 08 January 2011 - 12:05 PM.

[Dogface]

Interesting takes.

I think a special pattern bolter would be more of a Specialist Rifle like the following: firing a special Melta Round or a helfire round

Range 36
Strength 4 or X
ap 4
heavy 1

Make the s4 round function like an Anti-Material round, getting a Melta effect (2d6 Pen) At s4, it gives a Pen range of 6-16, with the avera being 11 (4 + 7 (avg of 2d6)). Not a bad upgrade for say 10 points a model.

So in essence, its a Ret unit with either Sniper rounds or a light Anti-Armor round, leaving the Exorcists to hunt things like Predators, Russ's and Land Raiders.

Benefit over the HB: A little better Anti-armor capability and the sniper effect with Helfire
Drawback: single shot

Benefit over the Multimelta: Range.
drawback: Strength and worse ap.

modeling it should not be hard... a simple conversion to a bolter like a barrel extension.

[- 7eAL -]

Seeing as there is a thread available (despite my disgruntlement at having neither been asked ahead of time nor assured of appropriate management).

3) Give a reason for Battle Squads of 10+. First 10 you are allowed up to 2 special or heavy weapons. At 15 you get a third. At 20 a fourth. Allow heavy bolters and multi-meltas back into troop squads.

4) To not make Retributors pointless with the advent of (3), give them Relentless. Do not make the Retributors themselves cost more, but put the price on the heavy weapons. Give them the full range of weapons, plus autocannons and/or assault cannons. Slug-throwing goodness fits Sisters fluff. Heavy flamers don't benefit from Relentless, and thus would be the cheapest options. Everything else would cost more than now, but its usefulness would increase dramatically, and make them serious competitors for Excorcists in a list.

Relentless sounds good, although I imagine some might prefer they have Slow & Purposeful or Relentless Rage, so it's a good thing and a bad thing.
I'm not sure about ass cannons, but Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Auto-Cannon and Multi Melta sound good.

Assault cannons are not man-portable except by Terminators, since they are effectively gatling-autocannons. A heavy bolter is hard enough to carry that even Marines as elite as the Deathwatch need an expensive, fiddly and advanced repulsor system to fire on the move, and even then their accuracy and range is cut in half. Repulsor technology is generally deemed heretical by the Adeptus Mechanicus - the Ministorum company line which the Sisters are likely to follow would be even harsher.

For that matter, Relentless with heavy weapons is impossible on power armour - only Thousand Sons have it, and only because they are Slow and Purposeful, and because they have no heavy weapons at all.

In other words, useful, but neither logical nor fluffy.


If in the event we were to present Relentless as an Act of Faith, that would still be a single use ability. What would Retributors do for the rest of the game? What about Divine Guidance?

You know, I don't see why nobody has really thought of how Repressors figure into this mess. Repressors have 5 fire points - according to the main rulebook there's no limitation on what can shoot out of them, long as the units obey all other shooting rules. Retributors can't shoot out of a moving vehicle because they count as moving as well, but the moment the Repressor takes a break, four of them can open up the top hatch for a heavy bolter tea party with their Sister Superior.

[Sister Acacia]

To be fair, 7eal, I hadn't caught the bit where you liked to be made aware of such things. I was in "GET THINGS DONE!" mode and the board has been remarkably slow-moving.

I agree on the ass-cannons. No way could they be PA-portable (we'd be looking at the set-up that IG heavy weapon teams have, with two to the weapon, dragging it into place), and I'm not sure they even fit the theme.

Relentless is one of those things that would be nice, but I pointed out that for it to happen, they'd probably need some form of drawback (and forgot to point out "and a good reason, fluffwise"). If they instead just zoom in on a Repressor (which, as of the IA update, last I checked, only allows basic weapons to be fired out of the sides, but that rule could be slashed to allow for Heavy Bolters) then they can spend the first turn moving 12" and then after that, in a good position, sit and fire with a 1-hit shield surrounding them (and the SB+HF). Hell, if the Fast Open-Topped Rhino makes it in (and isn't Ophanim-only) then they could zoom in 18" to start with and sit and fire from turn 2 onwards.

Weapons is the big thing with them:
1. I'm very much in favour of letting them take Auto-cannons.
2. I'm somewhat in favour of letting them take Heavy Flamers (and then they CAN do the move+shoot thing).

3. The Incendiary Mortar is something worth looking into - though I'd need to learn the rules for regular mortars. The version 7eal put forward, I'm not sure if I'd take: they'd largely be used against orks (because 1. Every man and his dog collects them, and 2. it's a weapon designed for hitting multiple models (horde armies like orks) that have bad enough armour saves that they want to use cover). S3 against T4 is... :cusse. It'd have to be the big blast for me to want to field that.

4. A reason (aside from human shields) for taking more than 5 models, such as some form of modified bolter as we've put forward.

5. The possibility of the VSS having a heavy weapon as well (as she does very little for the unit otherwise). I'm in favour of using the Thunderfire model and have her use that - while needing another Sister there (more reason for having more than the base 5 models) to help use it. It can be the Faithfire cannon idea, or be modified to have a Hurricane Bolter on it or whatever.

[- 7eAL -]

Relentless is one of those things that would be nice, but I pointed out that for it to happen, they'd probably need some form of drawback (and forgot to point out "and a good reason, fluffwise"). If they instead just zoom in on a Repressor (which, as of the IA update, last I checked, only allows basic weapons to be fired out of the sides, but that rule could be slashed to allow for Heavy Bolters) then they can spend the first turn moving 12" and then after that, in a good position, sit and fire with a 1-hit shield surrounding them (and the SB+HF). Hell, if the Fast Open-Topped Rhino makes it in (and isn't Ophanim-only) then they could zoom in 18" to start with and sit and fire from turn 2 onwards.

Main Rulebook doesn't stipulate what can and cannot fire out of a tank's firing ports. Nor do the Chimera rules in the Guard codex. The Guard book says explicitly that several passengers are in fact firing from the fixed lasguns, but that does not relate to the operative clauses of the rule and does not stop five Ogryns from firing their five ripper guns, or three heavy weapons teams from launching missiles and whiipping out the heavy bolters.
That limitation you see in Imperial Armour 2 Update is disappearing. Of course, most players won't appreciate getting blasted by untouchable Retributors or untouchable Heavy Weapons Teams, but the vehicles themselves must hold stationary for the turn - that is a not-insignificant drawback.

Weapons is the big thing with them:
1. I'm very much in favour of letting them take Auto-cannons.
2. I'm somewhat in favour of letting them take Heavy Flamers (and then they CAN do the move+shoot thing).

Heavy flamers going in is something of a no-brainer. It'll happen for the sake of completeness, if nothing else.

Autocannons tend to be a Guard and Traitor-Legion weapon. Ork Lootas are almost the same as well. They also break the Trinity - admittedly, the Trinity is entirely within the realms of a fluff concern but it is also a fairly interesting distinguishing mark upon the Sisters.

3. The Incendiary Mortar is something worth looking into - though I'd need to learn the rules for regular mortars. The version 7eal put forward, I'm not sure if I'd take: they'd largely be used against orks (because 1. Every man and his dog collects them, and 2. it's a weapon designed for hitting multiple models (horde armies like orks) that have bad enough armour saves that they want to use cover). S3 against T4 is... :cusse. It'd have to be the big blast for me to want to field that.

Heavy mortars aren't exactly the railway gun Dora:

They don't make a large blast unless the mortars themselves are firing shells that weigh several hundred pounds. That's what the Medusa Siege Mortar is for. Historically mortars were always fielded in batteries to lay down a significant volume of small blasts, not a small volume of large blasts. Outside the radius of a small blast template, a man-portable mortar would only produce a blast of air and flying pebbles - only the stuff inside the small blast template is hit by any significant concussive force.
The mortar is an inexpensive weapon however - in fact it is the cheapest heavy weapon that exists in the game because even the Guard have to pay +5-15 points for everything else, so it makes up the difference when your Retributor squad is laying down 4 small blasts at a time. Overlapping blasts are great because they stack up the hits. Mortars are also pinning because of the Barrage rule - and no matter how much damage the mortars actually do, the pinning effect is probably worth the most to Sisters because it can slow down some enemy units, keep them from swarming too quicky, and hold them off launching their vital charge.

I should note that I also feel something strange about your comments - are you assuming that Retributors would only get access to the incendiary form of the mortar, and not the standard form?
If the Retributors get mortars they would get the standard form first, and then we would start to think about the incendiary form as a specific proprietary fire mode, don't imagine it works any other way. The mortar is an existing weapon, and so it is much easier to legitimate than anything else we make up of our own fancy

4. A reason (aside from human shields) for taking more than 5 models, such as some form of modified bolter as we've put forward.

5. The possibility of the VSS having a heavy weapon as well (as she does very little for the unit otherwise). I'm in favour of using the Thunderfire model and have her use that - while needing another Sister there (more reason for having more than the base 5 models) to help use it. It can be the Faithfire cannon idea, or be modified to have a Hurricane Bolter on it or whatever.

The reason long rifles were suggested is partially because Exorcists now have too many targets and because the rest of the squad isn't in range when the heavy bolters are firing. The same thing was suggested of Dominions (not the codex Dominions who are renamed Ophanim, but a defensive Troops selection). Long rifles work to theme in a stationary or defensive gunline, while Sisters by and large are neither of those two things. Long rifles are fairly well out of theme Sisters, so it's not exactly one of the most expedient solutions that should come to mind. The only time long rifles and Thunderfires will work is when the squad has heavy bolters and is sitting back to pummel enemies from range. Long rifles and Thunderfires aren't any use if the squad is built with heavy flamers and multi-meltas, so what would the squad use then? Their standard bolters provide no attraction, but they're useable because they happen to be in range.
Furthermore, Thunderfires can't be transported because they're artillery - they're vehicles themselves, and only drop pods, drop ships and Leviathan superheavies can get away with transporting vehicles. The Thunderfire was originally a Guard-Admech weapon. Why the Space Marines got it I still don't understand, though the presence of Techmarines is fair enough fluff justification, but Sisters with a fiddly and technologically complex weapon platform like the Thunderfire makes very little sense.
The Retributors have always been a min-max-able selection, and I don't see any real need to make the extra bodies compulsory or more expensive than they already are, especially where the Immolator transport is always a much better option because it moves and grooves and gets things done, whereas ablative wounds will always be ablative wounds even if given fancy gear.

As far as I can tell, nobody has considered the possible effects of fixing Immolators, squadroning Immolators, giving Exorcists a blast fire mode or giving Exorcists an escort, for example.
Retributors can't get anything done because they can't move around the field fast enough, for one thing, and they can't move fast enough because no player is willing to spend points on overpriced Rhinos and underpowered Immolators. If those two alone are fixed, and Retributors have a cost-effective transport, then they instantly become better horde-thinners than Exorcists are tank hunters. Mobility was always the core issue around Retributors, and changing other unrelated things doesn't give them better threat range on their heavy bolters, doesn't get them out of trouble when threatened by approaching swarms, etc..

[Sister Acacia]

Well, I'm pleased to see that specific-weapon rule go. Though I've seen arguments about whether the Chimera has to fire lasguns or not. I tried to point out you can totally have a Heavy Weapon Squad in there, unleashing three missiles while the Chimera uses it's AC/ML and HB and HS. This makes the Repressor particularly useful: any other transport (barring the open-topped Rhino) would only be good for delivering them to a favourable spot on turn 1, as if they wanted to reposition, they'd have to climb in+out, losing two turns of shooting per move. The Repressor, they can stay inside and fire, only losing their shooting when it actually moves.

Autocannons are just nice weapons, and they fit nicely between the Heavy Bolter (3 shots, weak for a heavy weapon) and the Multi-Melta (1 shot, strong). And I'm all in favour of breaking the trinity, because the "distinguishing mark" it leaves is "Not allowed to use anything except three weapons, hey look, everyone else has a million options, BUT NOT YOU, SISTERS, HAHAHA".

Yes, I was assuming they'd have incendiary mortars and not regular ones. In either regular or the one you proposed, I wouldn't take them unless it was a free upgrade, though. Even four small blasts, if they allow cover saves or are less than S4... just don't seem worth the points.

Now, I agree that longrifles only mesh with Heavy Bolters (or Autocannons if I can force them in), but as it is, Bolters are only useful with the Heavy Flamer - nothing you dedicate Multi-Meltas to can be scratched by a Bolter. Maybe special ammunition, again, or maybe just say "Screw it, it's a squad of 5, no more, no less, and the VSS is only there for the Faith point".

But I'm going to come out and say it: I wouldn't field them. Like, at all. Barring a substantial points drop, I suppose. I would stick with tanks for the Heavy slot. Or perhaps if they were taken as a tag-along for an Exorcist, sort of a "Sure, you can Outflank and assault the big E, but you'll first take 4 Heavy Bolters to the face, and they'll screen just to tie you up for another round."

Immolators: I thought they had been fixed, with the price adjusted, the FA 12 and option to buy FA 13. I do like the idea of squadrons, however - but I would suggest this only for Immolators, as they're not supposed to be a tank-heavy army. Maybe the option for sponsons (HB/HF/MM), and possibly another main-turret option or two (Hell-Hound cannon springs to mind, twin-linked missile launcher wouldn't be completely out of the question).

Exorcist: I don't mind the idea of them having a blast firing mode, yeah. Or an escort.

[- 7eAL -]

Autocannons are just nice weapons, and they fit nicely between the Heavy Bolter (3 shots, weak for a heavy weapon) and the Multi-Melta (1 shot, strong). And I'm all in favour of breaking the trinity, because the "distinguishing mark" it leaves is "Not allowed to use anything except three weapons, hey look, everyone else has a million options, BUT NOT YOU, SISTERS, HAHAHA".

That's the thing - it's about dedication to a chosen set of gear and doing more with less. Sure everyone else has options but they all do the same thing: shoot to kill. In the Trinity are effectively condensed the three epitomes of a triangular arrangment of weaponry based on tank-hunting, infantry killing and horde slaying. By this logic, plasma and autocannons are neither properly dedicated infantry killing nor tank hunting weapons and so they are not a "pure" form of weapon with one purpose and one purpose only.

Anyway it sits so deep in the fluff that it is essentially taboo to break or retcon out. The Trinity is decided by the Ecclesiarchy and Ministorum, so changing the fact for the Sisters means reaching out into the fluff of those organizations also. The very fact that there is a specific term for it, "Trinity", and that it is clearly and consistently spelled out, means it's not something we really should be changing.
Every other major change in the game or in fluff was usually based on a conflict between the fluff and the game. The Dark Angels recieved Stubborn for example, because Intractable didn't work the way that they were said to behave in fluff - and the Dark Angels purists around here say that Stubborn still doesn't work the way that they are supposed to behave in fluff. Why were the Sensei and Star Children written out? They were a hope, and they did not fit into fluff that demanded grim and dark, and today is described as the Time of Ending beginning in M41 as the Imperium is beset on all sides by the Tau, Tyranid, Necron, Chaos and from within.

Seriously if you want autocannons you should be taking inducted Guard. I find it a little bit strange that you want autocannons where every other Imperial player frowns on autocannons because 2 shots is too slow to take down enemy troops and Strength 7 is too weak to take down tanks (except Ork Trukks). Every Marine and his domesticated wolf is reliant on flamers and meltas in 5th Edition, while the Guard are so pleased with their tanks and Valkyries that I haven't seen a list with missile launchers or autocannons in Heavy Weapons Teams for some time.

Yes, I was assuming they'd have incendiary mortars and not regular ones. In either regular or the one you proposed, I wouldn't take them unless it was a free upgrade, though. Even four small blasts, if they allow cover saves or are less than S4... just don't seem worth the points.

You should really start to read the other codices - it's an important habit where development is concerned because knowing every codex and rulebook inside and out gives one a much more concrete understanding of how an army should look and feel, how units should differ between armies and within armies, and the technical mechanics of the game's design. Reading other codices and knowing the rules of one's opponents also prevents abuse and surprise, as everyone should know the tenet of the Art of War, "if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win [numerous] battles without a single loss".

Mortars are free in Guard Heavy Weapons teams. The Guard just exchange their lasguns. You can guess what it means when the Sisters exchange their bolters for mortars, right?

Now, I agree that longrifles only mesh with Heavy Bolters (or Autocannons if I can force them in), but as it is, Bolters are only useful with the Heavy Flamer - nothing you dedicate Multi-Meltas to can be scratched by a Bolter. Maybe special ammunition, again, or maybe just say "Screw it, it's a squad of 5, no more, no less, and the VSS is only there for the Faith point".

That's the thing - as I had said I don't understand the desire to make ablative wounds "useful". The purpose in having the five extra bodies is to allocate wounds away from the heavy weapons. Knowing that the majority of the worst wounds will be given to these models, including plasma and melta wounds that ignore armour saves, there is no point in giving them any additional gear because the points spent are basically equal to points lost. Those models are going to die - that's basically been decided ahead of time, so spending +5-10 points per model on a special bolter or ammunition is simply giving up a Sister or a flamer somewhere else in the army and giving up those points to the enemy.

If the Retributor squad takes an Immolator, there is only room for 6 models, and only the Sister Superior and one other Sister would get any special gear. The moment the squad the wants to shoot it has to disembark from the Immolator, and the moment it gets hit in the open, chances are the wound will be allocated to either one of those two, and any points spent on the special gear will be lost. If the player wants the full 10 model count, then the squad will only fit in a Rhino or Repressor and none of the extra models will be able shoot from inside the vehicle because there aren't enough fire points. If the squad disembarks so the extra models can shoot, then they get hit in the open and again the wounds will be allocated to the extra models and any points spent on their special gear will be lost. Getting three or four special weapons for +30-40 points is already equivalent to losing another Rhino, or losing two power weapons or three or four meltaguns somewhere in the army.

[Sister Acacia]

That's the thing - it's about dedication to a chosen set of gear and doing more with less.

In that case, I propose we make the less do more: give meltas S9 or 10 so they can do more than glance Monoliths, make Heavy Bolters S6 or AP3, make Storm Bolters Assault 3+, do something to make Flamers better in their hands than for anyone else. Because as long as you're limiting them to the trinity, anyone else who has access to them and more is better off. So we make them true specialists with what little they have, and when Space Marines say "I wish my Meltas/Bolters/Flamers did that." you say "Sure, just throw away your plasma guns/cannons, ass cannons, lascannons, power fists, lightning claws, thunder hammers, rocket launchers, sniper rifles, land raiders, psykers... oh, and demolishers."

Or special abilities, like Trigger Discipline. The three weapons won't be any better, but the people wielding them will be (though in the case of Retributors it would be unlikely to see much use outside of a 4x Heavy Flamer get-up. The only time I can really see it being used otherwise is if they babysit an Exorcist with their Heavy Bolters and someone decides to Outflank in and charge. Without them, the Exorcist dies. With them, they screen, the foe charges them, they unload 12 S5 AP4 shots to the face)

I find it a little bit strange that you want autocannons where every other Imperial player frowns on autocannons because 2 shots is too slow to take down enemy troops and Strength 7 is too weak to take down tanks (except Ork Trukks).

Ork Trukks are a fantastic reason to want them. Besides, they're a nice medium where it's not a *complete* waste to fire on infantry, though usually it's better for such infantry as Terminators, _____Guard, Tyranid Warriors and Nobz, rather than squads of 10+ regular guys. The fact that they can take out soft tanks is a nice plus as well. And ultimately, it's about the only common heavy weapon that Devastators don't get, and I'm throwing a bone to the people who feel that Sisters shouldn't have anything that Space Marines get.

You should really start to read the other codices

I would, but that would involve paying money for stuff I have no intention of using.

Mortars are free in Guard Heavy Weapons teams. The Guard just exchange their lasguns. You can guess what it means when the Sisters exchange their bolters for mortars, right?

See, I'm aware of this bit, but the Mortar can be exchanged for a Heavy Bolter for +5, whereas Sisters pay +15 (indeed, the MM is in crazy town at +25, which is more than the cost of a Lascannon for Guard). So there are no guarantees there.

That's the thing - as I had said I don't understand the desire to make ablative wounds "useful". The purpose in having the five extra bodies is to allocate wounds away from the heavy weapons.

I'm not a fan of having people exist just to be wounds at all - if I wanted that, I'd play Guard. They have entire squads who exist to get killed in the place of other squads. I'd rather put the Retributors in a position where they can cause some damage every round but actually attacking them would be an inconvenience to the enemy - usually in the form of "We'd have to send something closer to actually deal with them, and that's too many rounds diverted away from killing scoring units".

Though I admit if the MM was cheaper such that anyone ever took them, a squad of 4 of those would always be worth the effort of taking out ASAP if the enemy has any reliance at all on vehicles or MCs. In that instance, there'd be reason to have the extra models just to take wounds (ignoring those cases of rending where a larger squad can often take more guaranteed Wounds than a smaller one who stacks the rends).

[Elric of Grans]

The Retributor Squad is one of the harder ones to work with. It originated at the start of third edition, when Games Workshop was of the opinion that every army should have a unit made of many heavy weapons. We already had Devastator Squads and Heavy Weapon Teams in second edition, so it has to work... right? That was how we got the red-haired step-children such as Retributor Squads and Dark Eldar's Scourges. They were poor fits into their respective armies and largely unpopular. Well, not quite true. When Retributor Squads were first introduced, they were very popular. They had Heavy Flamers back then, so everyone stuffed four Heavy Flamers and a Combi-Flamer into an Immolator. Nasty. Under fifth edition, this would be down-right filthy. After they took away the Heavy Flamers, however, Retributors were typically overlooked by the majority of Sisters players. They have the anti-hoard Heavy Bolter, and the officially worst infantry-based weapon in the game, the Multi-Melta. The intent was clear: Exorcists handle light armour and elite infantry, while Retributors handle hoards and heavy armour. In actuality, it did not work. The Multi-Melta does not work in *any* army when it is not mounted on a vehicle (Attack Bikes are a perfect example of it done right), while four Heavy Bolters alone lack the punch to make much difference. Look at the mathhammer:

vs Ork Boys, assuming 4+ cover from the Retributors (almost guaranteed) and 5 hits with a Template (in my experience, pretty common).
4xHeavy Bolter: 12 shots, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds, 2.66 dead Boyz.
EzyBake Battle Sisters:
- 1xHeavy Flamer - 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 3.33 dead Boyz,
- 1xFlamer - 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 2.5 dead Boyz,
- 8xBoltgun - 16 shots, 10.67 hits, 5.33 wounds, 5.33 dead Boyz.
- Total: 11.17 dead Boyz.

Obviously, the Retributors will likely get to shoot from turn one, whereas the Battle Sisters need to wait until turn two or three, but the Retributors need to spend 4.19 turns shooting to beat a single turn of Battle Sisters fire. The Retributor Squad costs 115 (assuming no VSS, who is largely meaningless in this squad), whereas the Battle Sisters cost 147 (including VSS with Book, not including the obvious Rhino). The Retributor Squad is 22% cheaper, but is less than 25% as effective. While better than an Exorcist vs Ork Boys, a quad-Heavy Bolter Retributor Squad is still largely meaningless. For that matter, when was the last time you saw a quad-Heavy Bolter Devastator Squad or tri-Heavy Bolter Heavy Weapons Team? There are always better options out there, which Retributors currently lack.

The proposal was put forth for Autocannons. Yeah, Autocannons are definitely better than Heavy Bolters! How many Sisters players out there take a Guard Platoon with stacks of Autocannons these days? That is practically the default tournament list now. However, what purpose is this serving? Autocannons are brilliant weapons vs light armour and elite infantry. In fact, four Autocannons is superior to an Exorcist, and would surely cost less (using Codex: Chaos Space Marines Havocs for the cost of Autocannons). We have successfully invalidated the Exorcist with this one proposal. As nice as it sounds, clearly not a good solution.

Heavy Flamers? Definitely nice, but no one would ever field any other option. Heavy Flamers fit the style of the Sisters far better (being Assault weapons) and are extremely powerful. Nice, but could it be horridly abusive? We are looking at 13.33 dead Boyz in a single round of fire; 15.83 if we add a Combi-Flamer. Even more if we add Boltguns. OK, they usually field squads of 30 anyways! Lets turn it onto Space Marines now:

4xHeavy Flamer: 20 hits, 13.33 wounds, 4.44 dead Marines
1xFlamer: 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.83 dead Marines.

One combat squad? Seems fine. Lets turn on Divine Guidance:
4xHeavy Flamer: 20 hits, 10 AP4 wounds/3.33 AP1 wounds, 6.67 dead Marines.
1xFlamer: 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.25 AP5 wounds/0.83 AP1 wounds, 1.25 dead Marines.

OK, we kill most of a unit. Nasty, but if appropriately costed it should not be too bad. Appropriately costed: a very important consideration!

Well, Heavy Flamers make them a better anti-infantry option, and make them `fit' better with the rest of the army, but it does not solve the issue of the Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta. If the Heavy Bolters had Blessed Ammunition on them, they would now function better in a fifth edition environment, and would definitely be worth consideration. They are better than the Exorcist vs hoard, and would be just as effective as an EzyBake squad. In a footslogging army, they would be a brilliant option. Considering this is effectively the Dark Reaper `Crack Shot' option, I would not consider this horridly abusive either. Multi-Meltas? Eh, impossible to fix. Nice models, nothing else. You would need a delivery system that guarantees they arrive right on a tank, then ensure the tank does not more more than 12'' away from the squad. In other words, the unit would need to Deep Strike in a Drop Pod. However, you would need to provide target saturation so your opponent does not simply destroy the squad before they set-up their weapons. This is why Drop Dreads are almost standard Marine practice these days, whereas Drop Melta-squads are less popular (but still functional, because of the Drop Pod Assault rule allowing you target saturation). Personally, I would not like to see Drop Pods given to Sisters from this project (if Games Workshop does it, so be it, but it is not our place to invent fluff), so I cannot see a way to make this work.

EDIT: math fix.

Edited by Elric of Grans, 11 February 2010 - 01:02 AM.

[Furyou Miko]

How about dropping the cost of multi-meltas to 15 points, and adding Special Orders, like the Stormtroopers get?

Having gone away and thought about that for a while, I can't come up with anything interesting enough to be worth the obvious special abilities they would grant.

I did come up with this, however, as a squad basis. Points costs are purely guestimated and have minimal mathhammer behind them, and should be revised;

UNIT PROFILE

Retributor Squad

Unit	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Sister Superior	3	4	3	3	1	3	2	9	3+
Sister Retributor	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	8	3+

Retributor Squad {Heavy Support}.......... 90 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry	1 Sister Superior 4 Sisters Retributor Purgatus IFV	Power armour Boltgun Bolt Pistol	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful

• May include up to 5 additional Battle Sisters: +13 points per model.
• The Sister Superior may exchange her boltgun and/or bolt pistol with:
  
  • a close combat weapon: free
  • a storm bolter or flamer: +5 points
  • a power weapon: +10 points
  • a meltagun: +15 points
• The Sister Superior may take Defensive Grenades: +5 points
• One Sister Retributor may be upgraded to an Imagifier with a Simacrulum Imperialis: +15 points
• Up to four Sisters Retributor may exchange her boltgun for:
  
  • a heavy bolter or heavy flamer: +5 points
  • a multi-melta: +10 points
• If the squad consists of ten models, two additional Sisters Retributor may exchange her boltgun for:
  
  • a heavy bolter or heavy flamer: +5 points
  • a multi-melta: +10 points

PURGUS IFV

Purgus IFV

Unit	BS	F	S	R
Purgus IFV	4	11	11	10

Purgus IFV {Dedicated Transport}..........points included

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Transport Capacity
Vehicle (Tank, Open Topped)	1 Purgus IFV	Smoke launchers Searchlight Four Heavy Weapon pintle mounts	Power Armoured Crew	Ten models. A Purgus IFV cannot carry models equipped with Terminator Armour.

• A Purgus attached to a Retributor Squad composed of less than six models may take one of the following hardpoint weapons in addition to the four hardpoint pintle mounts, which are fired by a passenger:
  
  • a twin-linked Heavy Flamer with Holy Promethium: +6 points
  • a twin-linked heavy bolter: +4 points
  • a twin-linked multi-melta: +10 points
• A Purgus attached to a Retributor squad of any size may take any of the following:
  
  • a dozer blade: +5 points
  • a storm bolter: +10 points
  • blessed ammunition: +10 points (affects Storm Bolter, and Heavy Bolter if so equipped)
  • 1-2 hunter-killer missiles: +10 points each
  • laud hailers: +10 points
  • a holy icon: +10 points

Hardpoints: The pintle mounts on the Purgus are specially designed to accept Sororitas weapons. Any model equipped with a Heavy Flamer, Heavy Bolter or Multi-melta may affix their weapon to the hard point and treat them as though they were mounted on a Fast vehicle. For example, a Retributors squad with four heavy bolters embark upon their Purgus and affix their heavy bolters. If the Purgus moves up to six inches, all four heavy bolters may be fired. If the Purgus moves up to twelve inches, one of the heavy bolters may be fired.
Power Armoured Crew: Because the crew of a Purgus IFV wear Power Armour, the vehicle is not counted as Open Topped for purposes of damage rolls against the Purgus. Note that this rule is lost while a model not wearing Power Armour is embarked, such as an Inquisitor who has joined the Retributor squad the Purgus IFV is attached to.

Fluffy!
The Purgus IFV is the product of a relatively recent breakthrough in the investigation of the Immolator STC data archive. Apparently originally designed as an amphibious fishing/hunting station, based on the ever-popular Rhino chassis, it was a logical step to replace the trawling gear with a weapon hardpoint and the harpoon stations with other wargear. Production has only recently begun, limiting the Purgus to specialist, heavy-weapon squads among the Sororitas, but leakage into other portions of the Imperial Armies is inevitable. The Ecclesiarchy fears the day when the Imperial Guard begin fielding mass-produced knockoffs as transports for their heavy weapon platoons.

Edited by Furyou Miko, 14 February 2010 - 05:44 AM.

[Sister Acacia]

The Purgus is an interesting idea - especially seeing as it is a mandatory transport vehicle. But there'll definitely need to be discussion on whether we want to do that, especially as it allows them to shoot on the move (effectively being Relentless except with a light armoured coating).

Also, the "Power Armoured Crew" rule doesn't exist any more. It used to be that if you fired out the top hatch it became open-topped if the people inside lacked Power Armour, but they scrapped that bit, and power armoured crew never turned an already open-topped vehicle into a normal one. Unless you're adding this as a special rule that applies specifically in this case?

Possible special orders... I'm drawing a blank, too. Most ideas are more cases of "This is what they'd be used for, so... deploy them as such" (Exorcist guards being an obvious one). Maybe something that assists them in firing into occupied buildings, but that's probably better handled as a special character thing (1-Wound character?) or a Cities of Death stratagem.

Also: I updated the first post. I'll make sure to keep it up to date, as opposed to leaving it, thus irritating 7eal and requiring him to create a separate thread for them.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

While the Purgus works ruleswise, would work fluffwise, I kinda feel that the Sisters already have enough transports (Rhino, Immo., Repressor) and tanks loaded down with heavy flamers/multi-meltas (Immo., experimental heavy Immo. (Infernus?)).

Then again, this suggestion has the bonus of making Multi-Meltas on troops viable (as multi-melta's are heavy weapons, sticking them on none relentless troops is kind of pointless).

Ditto on dropping power armoured crew, Games Workshop is moving away from that.

I'm unsure, overall.

[Sister Acacia]

Another option, given their role, could be to let them purchase Defensive Grenades. Now, a dedicated assault unit will kill them in a round regardless, but this could help them in instances where all-rounder squads (Tactical squads, for instance) choose to assault them out of fear of heavy bolter fire or whatever. It takes the edge off (and for those with Furious Charge, takes even more of an edge of), which might allow them to survive long enough for Seraphim to arrive and intervene on their behalf. Basically, another tarpit strategy.

[Furyou Miko]

Had another thought while cleaning out the mice today.

Why not let them take Blessed Ammunition as a unit? To apply to Bolt weapons at least, and possibly Meltas to keep them viable?


On another note - voting yes on Mortars and Heavy Flamers.

[Sister Acacia]

That could work for Heavy Bolters - either as a standard, an upgrade, or a benefit provided by special characters/Heroines who choose X option.

Not sure about the MM though, as they don't fire solid ammo, and also some might find the "No Armour or Cover saves for anyone" aspect a bit scary (and that would mean they ignore the cover save of smoke launchers, which seems a bit unfair). There would be room for some kind of special option/ability for the MM though, even if it is simply a reduction in cost.

But yes, Blessed Ammo for Heavy Bolters sounds good, but how should we integrate it, and the MM should get something to keep it an attractive choice alongside the other options.

[Furyou Miko]

Could twin-link them... or... heh. Suspensors? Reduce the range, maybe 18/9", in return for Relentless on the multi-meltas?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Discussion on Relentless (generally shot down)

No particularly good justification for the rule (wargear such as suspensors doesn't really seem their style, and suspensors are supposed to be rare to the point only deathwatch and grey knights can actually use them in numbers. The sisters are far too large of an organization to regularly field suspensors on their troops).

Incendiary mortars, aye or nay? Likewise Heavy Flamers - Heavy Flamers in, Mortars (incendiary a possibility) also worth considering

Heavy Flamers, yes, they're a sisters heavy weapon, of course the heavy weapon squad should have them! Regular guard mortars with an incendiary secondary fire option. I feel the incendiary should be near identical to the mortar (same blast), but slightly weaker and with an ignoring cover rule (otherwise it would be too good to hand out for free).

Discussion on Relentless (generally shot down)
Miko's idea: Possible Purgus transport vehicle: do we want them moving and all shooting, with an armour value on top of that?

I dislike this idea. The sisters will definitely possess three rhino based transports - rhinos, repressors and immolators. Considering that they'll have Immolators and likely a slightly heavier rhino-based heavy flamer/bolter/melta rhino based tank (Infernus?), having a rhino based transport loaded down with heavy flamers/bolters/meltas seems really redundant. The available transports should be enough for them (Repressors packed with heavy flamers? OW!).
HOWEVER, I would not be opposed to giving the Hardpoint rule to another transport. My first idea would be to give a MULTI-MELTA ONLY Hardpoint to Rhinos, in exchange for the Repair special rule. I don't see the sisters as technically skilled a force as the space marines (they've used most all of their training to reach seemingly superhuman levels of skill etc.), and this shows their skill with the Trinity weapons (while making multi-meltas more useful in a straight-up attack). This is a pretty random idea though, I'm not sure if it would really work out.

Miko also suggests possibly adding Special Orders. Thought?

Meh on this. It's a guard thing that we're borrowing for our ISTs (they have the same training, after all). Sisters of Battle have Faith as their signature unit modifier.

Possibility of the VSS being able to take Tempest rounds

I'm kinda against this, I feel that if a unit has special ammo, it should be the focus of the unit.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 28 February 2010 - 04:44 PM.

[Sister Acacia]

Okay, one person has mentioned, in reply to my fandex, that Retributors should be a Troops choice, so I'll raise the question for the general project - I'm divided about this one.

Are we for this (making them decent objective holders for options other than Heavy Flamer, and decent objective capturers for Heavy Flamer squads, but small numbers meaning they don't overshadow regular Sisters), or against this (somewhat lack of precedent, possible issues regarding taking heaps and heaps of heavy weapons lol Imperial Guard)?

If for this, should that mean all of their Heavy choices are vehicles? Or would we be wanting some kind of super Retributor squad as a Heavy? Such as:
[*]Larger squad size, like 10-15, and all but the VSS can take the heavy weapons if you're willing to pay the cost
[*]A special lumbering transport for the Heavy version, so they can all fire out on the move, but it moves slowly, and they get a nice AV for a while.
[*]Experimental weapons (is that heresy?) such as "Heavy Flamer can be fired at a range like the Hellhound, but as a Heavy weapon", "Heavy Bolters are Pinning" and "Multi-Meltas are Blast weapons"
[*]A sort of weaker Deep-striking Bastion that is dropped down with them in it, similar to the drop pod except they remain inside and still can't do anything when they first show up.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Admittedly, when I think of them being in a troops slot, I primarily see them equipped with mortars. It just seems like a nice, believable compliment to the Sisters Army - current Sisters units typically excel at mid-close range firefights, and a unit equipped with mortars would be able to offer supporting fire to the mid-close range units while sitting on the backfield objective. A squad functioning in this way fits into an unoccupied niche in the army - it doesn't break the armies "feel", but gives it a new option gameplay-wise.

I'm not sure how the Troops slot would work with their option to have heavy flamers, however. Would being able to transport a squad of 4 Heavy Flamers up to an objective, near-undoubtedly annihilate the controlling unit, and take that objective themselves, be a bit too much for the sisters? It seems more fitting for an elites unit, really.

I'd prefer to keep them at small numbers, or else they would entirely eclipse standard troops sisters.

...Them being a troops choice might not be as good of an idea as I thought it would be when I suggested it during the fandex discussion. If they can reach a squad size of 10, then they'll overshadow standard sisters (except as melta-users) due to their potential 4 Heavy Flamers. Limiting the amount of weapons depending on the squad size would basically make them sisters with fewer options. Limiting them to five would seem more fitting of an elite choice than a troop choice, although it could work. I was seeing the unit too much in the form of straight-up mortar users when I suggested the troops thing (affected somewhat by a unit idea I had swimming around in the back of my head, which I've abandoned after dropping some of its ideas into the Ophanim thread).

I'm not especially keen on such a specialized transport, but giving a multi-melta carrying model a purpose beyond area-denial (after all, who would park their vehicle next to it?) would be nice.

I wouldn't call them straight-up experimental, but unique weaponry is well within the Eccleisarchy's realm. Heavy Flamer Hellhound idea is interesting.

I don't really find the drop-bastion idea especially compelling myself, but I suppose it could work, a divergence of a drop pod in gameplay terms.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 10 April 2010 - 10:48 PM.

[Furyou Miko]

Yeah, I'm withdrawing my name from the Purgus... it's pretty crap as a concept.

Come on, a fishing boat on tracks? I have no idea what I was thinking.

I think there might be a reason Retributors weren't given Heavy Flamers as an option... we've seen how devastation a group of flamer dominions can be. With +1 S and AP... it would be pretty crazy. I mean, even under-strength, just yesterday a Dominion squad with only two flamers and a combi wiped out a unit of black templars in a game I was in.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yeah, I'm withdrawing my name from the Purgus... it's pretty crap as a concept.

Come on, a fishing boat on tracks? I have no idea what I was thinking.

I think there might be a reason Retributors weren't given Heavy Flamers as an option... we've seen how devastation a group of flamer dominions can be. With +1 S and AP... it would be pretty crazy. I mean, even under-strength, just yesterday a Dominion squad with only two flamers and a combi wiped out a unit of black templars in a game I was in.

I wouldn't say it's a bad idea - the concept of a transport mounting squad carried heavy weapons is pretty neat, it's just that the whole "Trinity" thing leaves the sisters with three main heavy weapons, which have already been plastered onto everything imaginable.

I do find the juxtaposition of the mortar and the heavy flamer a little awkward, if they were to be a troops squad. I think a mortar would be an ideal option for a second sisters troops, but a squad of four heavy flamers would be a bit over-brutal in the objective-storming business.

[*]A sort of weaker Deep-striking Bastion that is dropped down with them in it, similar to the drop pod except they remain inside and still can't do anything when they first show up.

How do ya' think that would work out in game? Sort of a non-disembarking drop-pod with firepoints? I kind of have trouble visualizing it, finding a sweet spot between utilitarian and churchy. It would be a fairly unique, but not overly complex unit. hmm,

[Sister Acacia]

Okay, first of all, if we don't go with Troops Retributors, then the alternate ideas for Heavy are unnecessary, as all they really need is a cost reduction on weapons and preferably the extra weapon options (and 4x Heavy Flamer as a Heavy choice is fine. I agree with it being a bit scary as Troops).

The other ideas I listed there were all possibilities just for a Heavy Retributors squad if a Troops one existed with all the options. No way would I suggest a squad of 10 Retributors, all with Heavy weapons, as a Troops choice.

I could see a specific Mortar squad as Troops, that's palatable for sure. They'd have their own specific job and niche.

As for how a Drop Bastion would work:
1. Deploys like a Drop Pod, Immobile etc.
2. Probably has a Mawloc-style rule where, if it scatters onto enemies, it hits and displaces them. Or maybe it does the Drop Pod thing and never lands on things it can't land on.
3. Upon landing, the unit inside count as Pinned for that round only. After that, they may fire out (5 fire points per side).
4. As a Bastion thing, it's 14/14/14 and outright ignores "Immobilised" results. I wouldn't say that treads on the "no Land Raiders" thing, as it can't move, and probably has zero weapons to call its own (or maybe has one weapon on top, such as a turret twin Heavy Bolter or an Interceptor weapon)

[- 7eAL -]

Drop Bastions require orbital platforms. The Sororitas are powerful here and there, but generally do not have resources of such magnitude.

We have to keep in mind that not all Orders are rich, numerous, and heavily involved in combat. The Sisters of Battle are a large but dispersed organization - the majority of Sororitas Orders are relatively small at several thousand members, so why would a convent have access to a drop bastion outside of a Crusade? By the time a conflict reaches the scale of a Crusade, you are already playing Planetstrike and Apocalypse. The Guard are incredibly numerous and well managed and it stands to reason that any Guard regiment would have excellent access to tanks and other heavy supplies through the Munitorum. Even small PDF garrisons have access to tank squadrons and other armour. Space Marines are few, generally affluent, and definitely very well coordinated - a single squad can be deployed with all sorts of machinery in tow if a commander so wishes.

[Chengar Qordath]

I'll toss out an idea I came up with to make Retributors (and Devastator-esque units in general) somewhat more tempting as a Heavy Support choice.

Entrenched Position: When the unit remains stationary inside a building or area terrain, it gains the benefits of the Stealth USR.

It fits pretty well with the traditional role of such troops (sit in cover and pour out long-range firepower) and makes a reasonable amount of logical sense. 3+ Cover saves do a lot to make Retributors pretty attractive since it allows them to shrug off a lot of long-ranged firepower.

[Sister Acacia]

It's nice, and it's simple too. I like it.