36 replies to this topic

[Sister Acacia]

Changes and proposals:
-Removed wargear that no longer exists
-Removed problematic wargear (and moved Holy Relic + Litanies to retinue)
-changed retinue options (they now function like SM retinue choices)
-special ammunition (if it remains in final version - acceptable for heroines?) only works for bolters
-Auxiliary launcher works like the SM one
-altered Blessings (transport + fire)
-removed special blessed weapon options
-added Glorious Armour
-April 2010: changes suggested to make Palatine a melee RAWR unit designed to make her squad better, and Canoness a ranged/tactical heroine who boosts the whole army

-Sister of Silence Heroine considered needless to add, too specialised. Entry remains for future reference (possible Apocalypse special character)

-Shield Sisters are not my creation. Renamed to Cherubim.
-Storm Shield changed to 4+, then changed to a Suppression Shield
-Power Weapon (free) offered to one Cherubim, then offered to any again (at a cost due to Shield granting +1 A?)
-Flamer, Melta and Heavy Flamer added as options, Heavy Flamer is two-handed
-All Sisters Hospitaller grant FnP instead of the regular benefit
-Added Banner Bearer and Famulus as options
-Note: Famulus, Dialogus and Hospitaller are optional additions to the squad, not upgrades. Max size is 10 Cherubim + those 3, for 13, plus the Heroine for 14, unable to fit inside any vehicle that is part of their codex (and it's not my job to care that they can hop into an allied LRC, because you know what? So can Genestealers.) Still, should this be the case, or should they be upgrades, at lower costs? I'm in favour of them being added to the unit for a bigger maximum.

-Celestian Command will not gain special ammunition, will have costs lowered accordingly (ammo removed, cost still the same - what's a good number? 15 per model +10 for VSS for 85 starting cost?)
-Trigger Discipline added, possibly removed in favour of granting as general ability for SoB, needs to be clarified to avoid abuses
-Famulus wields Holy Relic + Rosarius, may take Mancatcher for free
-Dialogus wields the Litanies and counts as Faithful/origin of Faith (as per the Heroine)
-Imagifer carries a sacred standard that allows automatic regrouping even when you can't, can be upgraded to Banner for the Cherubim (works like the SM banner, seeing as no-one wants to be Fearless when they can be Stubborn instead)

-Added the option to take the Blazing Maul (with the assumption it is the 2-H Power Weapon that always wounds on a 3+ but affects vehicles at normal S)
-Added a Blessings option for sticking with a Bolter

PALATINE:

Palatine

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Palatine	4	5	3	3	2	4	2 (3)	10	3+/4+

Palatine {HQ}..........40 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry, Independent Character	1 Palatine	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Close Combat Weapon Bolt Pistol Boltgun Rosarius	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful (1 Faith)	Rhino Repressor Immolator

Transport: a transport option may be selected for the Palatine as long as she does not have a Jump Pack and the vehicle has enough space for her and her retinue.

Retinue: a Palatine may attach herself to any Adepta Sororitas unit (except for Repentias) to treat them as a retinue. If she has a Jump Pack and the squad does not, she cannot use it without breaking away. Likewise if she attaches to Seraphim but lacks a Jump Pack, they must restrict themselves to her movement or break away.

Wargear:

• She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or CCW with:
  • an Inferno Pistol for +15 points
  • a Plasma Pistol for +15 points
  • a Neuro Whip for +15 points
  • a Burning Brazier for +10 points
  • a Power Weapon for +10 points
  • a Power Stake for +15 points
  • a Blazing Maul for +20 points
  • an Eviscerator for +25 points
  • a Blessed Weapon for +30 points
• She may replace both her Bolt Pistol and CCW with:
  • a pair of Hand Flamers for +20 points
• She may replace her Boltgun with:
  • a Storm Bolter for +10 points
  • a Combi-Weapon for +10 points
  • a Stake Launcher for +15 points
• She may also purchase:
  • Melta Bombs for +5 points
  • the Cloak of St. Aspira for +20 points
  • the Mantle of Ophelia for +15 points
  • a Holy Relic for +25 points
  • a Jump Pack for +20 points
  • a Sarissa for her Boltgun for +5 points
  • an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher with Alicia-Pattern Incendiary Grenades for +15 points
  • Inferno rounds for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapons) for +10 points

Holy Water: this may be used in the first round of combat, regardless of who assaulted who. For the entire Assault Phase, no Psykic Powers or Daemon Gifts/Powers have any effect inside the combat.

Sacred Incense: anyone who targets the bearer (or her unit) with a Psykic Power, even if they automatically succeed without rolling, will automatically suffer from Perils of the Warp. This does not change their success or failure, however.

Auxiliary Grenade Launcher: works like the Spazz Moran version.

Inferno Rounds: the boltgun may be fired normally, or with the following profile:

• Boltgun: 18" S 4 AP 4 Rapid Fire, Re-roll all successful Invulnerable Saves

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CANONESS:

Canoness

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Canoness	4	5	3	3	3	4	3 (4)	10	3+/4+

Canoness {HQ}..........50 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry, Independent Character	1 Canoness	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Close Combat Weapon Bolt Pistol Boltgun Rosarius	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful (1 Faith) Blessings	Rhino Repressor Immolator Arvus Lighter

Transport: a transport option may be selected for the Canoness as long as she does not have a Jump Pack and the vehicle has enough space for her and her retinue.

Retinue: a Canoness may attach herself to any Adepta Sororitas unit (except for Repentias) to treat them as a retinue. If she has a Jump Pack and the squad does not, she cannot use it without breaking away. Likewise if she attaches to Seraphim but lacks a Jump Pack, they must restrict themselves to her movement or break away.

Wargear:

• She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or CCW with:
  • an Inferno Pistol for +15 points
  • a Plasma Pistol for +15 points
  • a Neuro Whip for +15 points
  • a Burning Brazier for +10 points
  • a Power Weapon for +10 points
  • a Power Stake for +15 points
  • a Blazing Maul for +20 points
  • an Eviscerator for +25 points
  • a Blessed Weapon for +30 points
• If a Blessed Weapon is chosen, it may be a named Relic with one of the following benefits:
  • Searing Heat (Invulnerable saves taken against this blade are made at -1 to the roll) for +15 points
  • Radiant Light (the model gains +1 A against Psykers and anyone with a Mark or Icon of Chaos) for +10 points
  • Calming Influence (all friendly models in base-to-base contact with the wielder gain a 5+ Invulnerable save) for +15 points
• She may replace both her Bolt Pistol and CCW with:
  • a pair of Hand Flamers for +20 points
• She may replace her Boltgun with:
  • a Storm Bolter for +10 points
  • a Combi-Weapon for +10 points
  • a Stake Launcher for +15 points
• She may also purchase:
  • Melta Bombs for +5 points
  • the Cloak of St. Aspira for +20 points
  • the Mantle of Ophelia for +15 points
  • a Holy Relic for +25 points
  • Litanies of Faith for +20 points
  • a Jump Pack for +20 points
  • a Sarissa for her Boltgun for +5 points
  • an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher with Alicia-Pattern Incendiary Grenades for +15 points
  • Inferno rounds for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapons) for +10 points
  • Tempest rounds for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapons) for +10 points
  • Latheworld Hyper-Penetrators (for Boltgun/Combi-Weapon) for +15 points
  • Glorious Armour for +15 points

Litanies of Faith: instead of adding more Faith, if we're using the "Rare, more powerful" kind, Litanies simply cause the benefits to last for twice as long when performed by a unit with at least 1 model within 6" of the bearer, but not the bearer herself. This provides an additional Faith Point that may be used even by a unit or model that has already used an Act Of Faith. However they must have at least one model within 6" of the bearer.
-To be detailed in the unit entry.

Glorious Armour the armour worn by the Canoness is as much a relic as anything else carried into battle. Although it does not affect the protective qualities, she is considered too valuable to leave lying on the field if killed: if removed from play for any reason, leave the model in place. This represents her armoured corpse, and all benefits to other models and units still apply (such as proximity for Acts of Faith/Litanies of Faith). Additionally, on the round following her death, all friendly units with a model within 12" gain the Furious Charge USR as they are filled with rage.

Blessings: the Canoness grants special benefits to her army, based on the wargear she selects.

• Jump Pack: The Canoness herself used to be a Seraphim, and she values their speed and morale boosting abilities. Seraphim may be taken as Elite choices as well as Fast Attack. If taken as an Elite choice, the entire unit may gain Holy Rage for +4 points per model
• Arvus transport: the Canoness believes in taking the fight to her enemies, flying into battle, and has built a favourable relationship with the Imperial Navy. Ophanim squads may purchase Arvus Lighters as dedicated transports and one Celestian squad may purchase a Valkyrie as a transport.
• Eviscerator or 2 Neuro-Whips: The Canoness was once a Mistress, or even a rare Repentia who managed to achieve salvation while living. Repentia squads may treat their Eviscerators and Neuro Whips as Mastercrafted. Additionally she may be attached to a Repentia squad as a retinue, keeping them under control (and thus able to take transports).
• Rhino or Repressor transport: the Canoness trains her Sisters to rapidly deploy via their vehicles. All transport vehicles count as having one additional fire point.
• a pair of Hand Flamers: the Canoness understands the true value of setting people on fire. All Flamers (including Braziers and Combi-Flamers) and Heavy Flamers used by Celestian squads gain the benefits of Holy Promethium.
• Inferno Pistol and Melta Bombs: the Canoness knows the weakness of human flesh against tanks, and has made sure to keep her troops equipped to deal with them. All Battle Sister squads may take Melta Bombs for +3 points per model.
• Boltgun with at least one Special Ammunition: the Canoness values the traditional Bolter and trains her Sisters to use it to their full potential. Any Battle Sister squad or Retributor squad may take the "Trigger Discipline" ability for +4 points per model. (Or perhaps it should just be any Adepta Sororitas unit within X inches of her has the ability?)

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Trigger Discipline: the unit may fire upon the first unit, character or creature to charge them in the assault phase. After the enemy models have been moved into base-to-base contact, resolve a round of shooting. Enemies must test Ld if taking 25% casualties as usual, and if they flee, are wiped out, or have no models in base-to-base contact, the assault is cancelled. Note that the unit may not hold their fire to instead target the next unit to assault them that phase, even if the initial unit is pathetically weak, or too tough for them to be able to hurt. They cannot use this ability while already engaged in close combat.

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Special retinue choices:

Up to one Celestian Command Squad or unit of Shieldsisters may be selected per Canoness in the army. They do not take HQ slots of their own.

See below.

What are the immediate, glaring issues here?

For future reference, the post with Shield Sisters: http://www.bolterand...p...47069&st=70

Edited by Sister Acacia, 08 April 2010 - 01:27 AM.

[Sister Acacia]

So, another possible option - meaning Pure Sisters have three different HQ options and WH in general have 4, much like the Space Marines. That being said, it's not necessary (what with 3 being the average (IG, CSM, Nids, pre-errata DE) and at least (Daemons) having only 2). But it's a possibility, anyway.

SISTERS OF SILENCE EXTRACTION SQUAD:

Extraction Squad

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Sister Excrutiatus	5	4	3	3	3	5	3 (4)	9	2+/4+
Silent Extractor	4	4	3	3	2	4	2	9	2+

Extraction Squad {HQ}..........125 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry	1 Sister Excrutiatus 3 Silent Extractors	Artificer Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Close Combat Weapon (Sister Excrutiatus) Bolt Pistol (Sister Excrutiatus) Boltgun Rosarius (Sister Excrutiatus)	Psykic Abomination Soulless Immune to Psykic Powers Stubborn	Rhino Fast Rhino

OPTIONS:

• Up to 6 additional Silent Extractors for +25 points each
• The entire squad may each take a Rosarius for +10 points per model except the Sister Excrutiatus
• Any model may replace her Boltgun or Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon with:
  • a Bolt Pistol and Power Sword for +10 points each
  • a pair of Lightning Claws for +15 points each
  • a Blessed Weapon for +20 points each
  • a Storm Bolter for +5 points each
  • a Holy Stake and Close Combat Weapon for +15 points each
  • a pair of Hand Flamers for +10 points each
• The entire squad may take Psyk-Out Grenades for +4 points per model
• The Sister Excrutiatus may take a Warp Siren for +20 points
• The Sister Excrutiatus may take a Golden Halo (treat as a Mantle of Ophelia) for +15 points

Warp Siren: this arcane device enhances the power of an untouchable, making their shadow in the warp even larger and darker. The bearer counts as having Etherium, and additionally, in Close-Combat, all models in base-to-base contact are unable to use or benefit from any Psykic powers, Gifts, Marks of Chaos or Daemon Powers.

[- 7eAL -]

Typically I like to be the one starting threads because I have a particularly meticulous and standardized approach to post-organization that I hope makes it easier for people to read, while at least partially emulating the codex system by contracting all items that share a points cost, and by providing all universal wargear and special rules in a collected location.

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HEROINES

• She may also purchase:
• melta bombs and/or a sarissa for her boltgun: +5 points
• an auspex: +3 points
• bionics for +10 points
• the Cloak of St. Aspira: +20 points
• the Mantle of Ophelia: +15 points
• a holy relic: +25 points
• holy water: +15 points
• sacred incense: +10 points
• a jump pack: +20 points
• an auxiliary grenade launcher with Alicia-pattern incendiary grenades for +15 points
• inferno rounds (for boltguns (including combi-weapons), storm bolters and bolt pistols) for +10 points

- Auspexi/auspices have been removed from all books.
- Bionics too.
- Holy Relics also have been removed from all books.

Holy Water: this may be used in the first round of combat, regardless of who assaulted who. For the entire Assault Phase, no Psykic Powers or Daemon Gifts/Powers have any effect inside the combat.

Sacred Incense: anyone who targets the bearer (or her unit) with a Psykic Power, even if they automatically succeed without rolling, will automatically suffer from Perils of the Warp. This does not change their success or failure, however.

Shield of Faith causes mass despair amongst psykers anyway, and makes any additional protective wargear redundant. In fact given the reductions placed upon psychic hoods and other protective gear, Shield of Faith may also have certain limitations placed upon its effects also - perhaps worded similar to Runic weapons possessed by Space Wolf Rune Priests.

Holy Water is awkwardly worded. Suggested: "Once per game, the model may use holy water to nullify any psychic powers used in close combat for the duration of one Assault phase."
Daemonic Gifts and Powers should also fall beyond reproach, as denying those abilities is effectively identical to denying frag grenades, armour, and other basic wargear available to other races: Daemonic Gifts include hellblades, rending claws, plagueswords, auras of acquiescence, Breath of Chaos and so on - denying them effectively removes power weapons, rending, poison, grenades, shooting weapons, etc.

Sacred Incense relatively overpowered, as no gear causes Perils of the Warp. Considering Perils causes an automatic wound with no armour or cover saves, and invulnerable saves must be rerolled, this is a piece of wargear that serves as a better deterrent than public execution under the old laws of death penalty.
Sacred Incense is also different from the Daemonhunters gear of the same name - the equivocation of names, especially in this project, cannot be allowed, due to the confusion it causes in reference to rules.

Auxiliary Grenade Launcher: although this does not require any hands to hold, it is still bulky, and therefore cannot be fired in the same Shooting phase as any other weapon. Additionally, the user does not get +1 Attack for fighting with 2 HtH weapons. It uses the following profile:
18" S4 AP4 Assault 1, Blast, Causes Instant Death to Psykers regardless of Toughness

Targeting psykers is superfluous, as most of them are either immune to Instant Death or do not have sufficient wounds to suffer from Instant Death at all.

Ideally, with a name like auxiliary grenade launcher and based on the traditional grenade launcher available to the Imperial Guard and to the Inquisition Storm Troopers, one would expect a profile of greater similarity:
- Frag: Range 12" . . . S3 . . . AP 6 . . . Assault 1, Blast
- Krak: Range 12" . . . S6 . . . AP 4 . . . Assault 1
In any case, the auxiliary grenade launcher will be included for the sake of Deathwatch Marines at least, and again we cannot allow an equivocation of names to occur.

Inferno Rounds: the bolt weapon may be fired normally, or with the following profile:

• Bolt Pistol: 9" S 4 AP 4 Pistol, Re-roll all successful Invulnerable Saves
• Boltgun: 18" S 4 AP 4 Rapid Fire, Re-roll all successful Invulnerable Saves
• Storm Bolter: 24" S 4 AP 4 Assault 2, Re-roll all successful Invulnerable Saves

Inferno [bolts] (sic) exist in the Chaos Space Marines codex, and as such the name should not be recycled - equivocation of names across codexi. I do not know how the terminology for shells, bolts, rounds and other bullets is translated into various languages, though it would be best to avoid any similarity whatsoever.

Additionally, in the Space Marine codex, Hellfire rounds can only be used in a standard boltgun, presumeably to avoid any confusions. It may be prudent to take the same approach with special ammunitions.

Retinue: if a Jump Pack is not selected, the Canoness may take a Celestian squad as a retinue, as per the Elite choice. If she does select a Jump Pack, she may instead take a Seraphim squad as a retinue, as per the Fast Attack choice. No retinue need be chosen. She may also select 0-2 Shield Maidens for +20 points each, a Sister Hospitaler for +20 points and/or a Sister Dialogus for +15 points. If she has a Jump Pack, they must also purchase Jump Packs for +10 points each.

Retinues are to be wholly separate units, unlike the Imperial Guard codex. The reason for this is not presently apparent in the current codex or project unless one has followed since the beginning: it was previously suggested for the Sororitas to gain a Terminator-like Honour Guard unit, clad entirely in artificer armour, and armed with some form of shield. In effect, Shield Maidens by a less sexual and more thematic name. It was also suggested that some Heroine selections might also cause Seraphim to become available as Elites - it followed that some Heroine selections might make it possible for a unit of Seraphim to in fact be selected as a command squad or retinue attached to the HQ slot.

Therefore:
- Celestian Command Squad (Options: Imagifier House/Order banner, holy relic, Sister Dialogus, Ecclesiastical, Sister Hospitaller)
- Cherubim Honour Guard (Wargear & Rules: Retinue, artificer armour, Praesidia Protectiva/suppression shields, storm bolters/power weapons)
- Seraphim selected as command squad (no additional options or rules)

• If a Blessed Weapon is chosen, it may be a named Relic with one of the following benefits:
• Searing Heat (Invulnerable saves taken against this blade are made at -1 to the roll) for +15 points
• Radiant Light (the model gains +1 A against Psykers and anyone with a Mark or Icon of Chaos) for +10 points
• Calming Influence (all friendly models in base-to-base contact with the wielder gain a 5+ Invulnerable save) for +15 points

Weapons that affect Invulnerable saves generally only force rerolls, or belong to the C'tan and are therefore heretical in nature, or belong to the Grey Knights and Malleus (and require a psyker to operate) and are therefore inaccessible. Is this a symptom of fear of Terminators and storm shields? Realistically the only way around invulnerable saves is usually simple weight of fire forcing wounds - it's reliable enough, and Sisters do not suffer any lack of guns.

Radiant Light is relatively limited and overspecific as it only deals with Chaos and Psykers. Tau are entirely free of those "taints", and as such any competitive or takes-all-comers list incorporating Radiant Light just wasted +10 points that could have been spent on a flamer or meltagun.

Calming Influence is relatively useless as friendly models must be in base contact - therefore, in most cases only six models can benefit from Calming Influence off a Canoness on a 25mm base, and since she would be in base contact with friendly models she would not be able to fight in close combat.

• She may also purchase:
• an auxiliary grenade launcher with Alicia-pattern incendiary grenades for +15 points
• Inferno rounds (for boltguns (including combi-weapons), storm bolters and bolt pistols) for +10 points
• Tempest rounds (for boltguns (including combi-weapons), storm bolters and bolt pistols) for +10 points
• Latheworld hyper-penetrators (for boltgun/combi-weapon) for +15 points
• Martyr's grenade for +10 points

- What are Latheworld hyper-penetrators, why does it have to have a sexual implication in the name, and why is "Latheworld" designation even necessary?
- What are Tempest rounds?

Litanies of Faith: instead of adding more Faith, if we're using the "Rare, more powerful" kind, Litanies simply cause the benefits to last for twice as long when performed by a unit with at least 1 model within 6" of the bearer, but not the bearer herself.

Even if used with HQ-Inspired Faith, this becomes somewhat torturously complex.
Effects that last twice as long is a simple way of outlining the concept but makes the actual wording of play very difficult to clarify: if Litanies of Faith affects The Passion, for example, then for the first game turn of play it grants Fleet, then for the second game turn it grants Counter-Attack. This means that during the opponent's first turn, the squad may not Counter-Attack, while during the player's second turn, the squad may not Fleet. That is not the intended effect of course, because it is worded to grant Fleet during the player's turn and Counter-Attack during the opponent's turn - without actually stating "player" or "opponent".

Even changing the definition of The Passion to reflect that intention is questionable, because the words "player" and "opponent" seem to have become taboo in codex. All game effects must described in relation to the model, and to its own turns. Psychic powers are used at the beginning of the model's turn, or during its shooting phase, and any effects are intended to last during the opponent's turn are worded thus: "Until the beginning of the model's next turn".

And what happens to Rage in terms of Spirit of the Martyr? Does it still begin after the first turn, or does it only take effect after the Invulnerable save effect has ended?

Martyr's Grenade either surgically connected to the heart so as to go off when it stops beating, or activated by a dead-man's switch, this weapon is used as a last resort to take a few enemies out with her when she dies. When the Canoness is removed as a casualty, place the Large blast marker so that it is centred on her. All models under it are hit for a S7 AP2 hit that ignores cover saves. Vehicles partially under the template are hit for the full strength. All Adepta Sororitas units within 12" when this happens gain the Furious Charge USR on their following turn.

Overpowered. Also devastating because it will generally take out the command squad that the Canoness is attached to.
Along with any other Sisters within the radius of effect. Considering that the HQ Inspired Faith pattern requires or at least encourages troops to stay close to the Heroine and for the Heroine to support the troops as a screen or countercharge unit, the likelihood of finding other squads partially under the template is significantly increased, and so the potential loss is also significantly greater. Add to this the fact that the Heroine can no longer continuously sustain Spirit of the Martyr at 2+ Invulnerable, and is therefore no longer "invulnerable" to enemy attack.

In the worst case, a Vindicare Assassin or Torias Telion will appear and will snipe the Heroine in the middle of the squad, eliminating her, triggering the deadman's switch, and destroying the squad she is with, all without suffering any significant losses. A more humiliating case is where, due to wound allocation rules, the Heroine accumulates more wounds than the rest of her squad in a single torrent of fire or a flurry of blows, dies first, and then takes the squad with her. Entirely possible considering Imperial Guard and Tyranids.

Also quite unfluffy, as the gear and bodies of Heroines are considered particularly important in Sororitas doctrine, such that a Heroine's armour grants additional properties by virtue of history alone. Their armour and weapons are otherwise fairly standard. That is not the case even in the Space Marine or Space Wolf codices, because whatever powerful gear is available to their named characters is specifically engineered to be such.

• Rhino or Repressor transport: Battle Sister squads numbering 20 models may still take dedicated transports, taking two of the same kind of vehicle which will travel as a vehicle squadron. If one is destroyed, the other vehicle must move slow enough to remain within 3" of at least one model, unless the inhabitants disembark.

Not permitted under main rules, for good reason. It would be possible to disembark on two sides of the vehicle, therefore losing unit coherency and causing trouble. It is entirely understandable to players with logic and common sense, but might be abused if, for example, the Rhinos and troops were used to box in an enemy unit and destroy it by falling back in towards each other, automatically regrouping to fight, and then eliminating any path of escape when the enemy squad loses combat.
Yes I have a twisted mind - I came up with that on the spot, which suggests that all sorts of unscrupulous possibilities may exist if someone spends an additional hour on it.

• a pair of Hand Flamers: all Flamers (including Combi-Flamers, Braziers and paired Hand Flamers, except her own) and Heavy Flamers used by her army automatically benefit from the Holy Promethium upgrade.

That's Named Character level material right there.

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I was going to have some kind of "Human Focus" rule for the Canoness, where she inspires her troops by showing she is human, even in her shortcomings. Basically the player would select one option ("Wisdom", "Anger", "Love", "Dedication" etc.) and that would provide a benefit to her army, to help customise the army . However having the equipment choices affect her army basically covers that.

Such traits are probably throwing things a little too far out there.


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SISTERS OF SILENCE

So, another possible option - meaning Pure Sisters have three different HQ options and WH in general have 4, much like the Space Marines. That being said, it's not necessary (what with 3 being the average (IG, CSM, Nids, pre-errata DE) and at least (Daemons) having only 2). But it's a possibility, anyway.

SISTERS OF SILENCE EXTRACTION SQUAD:

Extraction Squad

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Sister Excrutiatus	5	4	3	3	3	5	3 (4)	9	2+/4+
Silent Extractor	4	4	3	3	2	4	2	9	2+

Extraction Squad {HQ}..........125 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry	1 Sister Excrutiatus 3 Silent Extractors	Artificer Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Close Combat Weapon (Sister Excrutiatus) Bolt Pistol (Sister Excrutiatus) Boltgun Rosarius (Sister Excrutiatus)	Psychic Abomination Soulless Immune to Psychic Powers Stubborn	Rhino Fast Rhino

Immune to psychic powers, and Psychic Abomination, I will allow, as these are identical to the traits possessed by Warp-Nulls and other Untouchables.
Soulless however, automatically makes an individual qualify for Culexus Temple, and therefore Soulless will be reserved for the Culexus Assassin and Pariah only.

The reason for this is simple: a psychic abomination can be any person, place, or object which offends the psyker's sensitivity to the Warp. Soullessness, however, is a characteristic possessed only by particular individuals who have absolutely no presence in the Warp, and affect everything else nearby - even non-psykers who are not sensitive to the Warp. Soulless beings exist on a level not matched by simple Untouchables.
This implies a grade scale: Soullnessness must be Omega and Omega-minus on the Assignment, whereas a psychic abomination can be anywhere on that scale. It is entirely possible for a psyker-eating creature to be a psychic abomination without possessing any particularly important traits in relation to Warp-presence, and possible for a powerful psyker to be considered a psychic abomination if his or her connection to the Warp is somehow unsavory. Those of the Enslaver-Krell-Psyren daemon-race, for example, would be a psychic form of psychic abomination.

Otherwise, Fearless is more fitting of Sisters of Silence than Stubborn, and close combat options are severely lacking where Sisters of Silence are portrayed as a pursuit and live-capture organization. Bolter rounds generally do not preserve civilian psykers for the Black Ships and the Astronomican.

Finally, Sisters of Silence really ought to be a single unit of Elites, rather than an HQ choice, because they exist entirely outside the organizational structure of the Adepta Sororitas. They were the militant arm of the Adepta Astra Telapathica, and formed long before the Adepta Sororitas and the Inquisition. According to Lexicanum there is no mention of their continued existence, if they continue to exist at all, and that they would most likely come to the jurisdiction of the Inquisition rather than the Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy would not approve of a militant force composed entirely of Untouchables anyway, because it is a recognizable type of mutation, and because their task is to capture psykers for use and training rather than eliminate them.

• The entire squad may take Psyk-Out Grenades for +4 points per model
• The Sister Excrutiatus may take a Warp Siren for +20 points
• The Sister Excrutiatus may take a Golden Halo (treat as a Mantle of Ophelia) for +15 points

Don't use "treat as" rules, when concerning wargear entries. If it does the same as a Mantle of Ophelia, call it a Mantle of Ophelia. Not only is it important to avoid equivocation of names, it is also important to avoid a multiplicity of synonymous entries - it may not yet be noticeable, but I have eliminated from the Radical entries any alternative gear that has the same effects as existing Loyalist gear, and eliminated from the Loyalist entries any existic gear that is not flexibile enough to function as the equivalent Radical gear. I effectively replaced both Radical and Loyalist options with a nondenominational generalization.

Warp Siren: this arcane device enhances the power of an untouchable, making their shadow in the warp even larger and darker. The bearer counts as having Etherium, and additionally, in Close-Combat, all models in base-to-base contact are unable to use or benefit from any Psykic powers, Gifts, Marks of Chaos or Daemon Powers.

Again, immunity to psychic powers should be sufficient protection from psykers without denying their personal buffs. And again, denying Marks, Gifts and other Chaos Powers is overpowered because it is effectively denying basic wargear.

Even Etherium alone is good enough, though relatively useless. Like Sacred Incense above, it is a deterrent on top of other deterrents, and it is therefore somewhat redundant.

Edited by - 7eAL -, 06 November 2009 - 04:28 AM.

[Sister Acacia]

Okay...

Typically I like to be the one starting threads because

Noted. I'll keep that in mind in future, I'm just really keen to see this actually reach completion, particularly seeing as I've just given up playing Sisters as they are, so the sooner this is complete, the sooner I can start playing non-Apocalypse games (where in Apoc I treat them as a blend of "Counts as Space Marines" and "Counts as Chaos Space Marines") again.

Auspexes and Bionics: thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Probably a good thing regarding the Bionics, seeing as if there's a Hospitaller attached you could get the normal save, plus a FNP save, plus the bionics save afterwards (in the case of the last Wound). Pity about the Auspex, but then again most people use Infiltrate to Outflank anyway.

Holy Relics I thought were being added - that was mentioned previously, though I wonder if you actually meant Relic Blades (and by that, actually meant Blessed Weapons).

I'll admit I haven't read individual Chapter codices (beyond a glimpse at Space Wolves, just to see how much creep they were given and to rage at their wargear stealing the entire jobs of Witch Hunters and Daemon Hunters), nor Codex: Daemon Hunters (aside from a glimpse to see what Holy Relics even do). So any cases of two things having the same name is entirely accidental.

I'm happy to drop the water and incense - but in my experience, the regular save vs Psykers doesn't do them enough. The special Farseer character just lays down a whole bunch of powers, or the Daemon Prince/Chaos Sorcerer shouts "Stop! Warp Time!" and rushes unhindered into combat. So maybe, rather than making existing targeted-powers even harder, it'd be better to increase their breadth: allow a chance of negating powers people use on themselves (Warp Time, for instance) or Daemon Powers that are effectively ranged weapons (Gaze, Flames etc.), and even mess with all those things that should be called Psykers but aren't (anything benefiting from Synapse, all Orks).

But they could do with a bunch of wargear options in general. Perhaps more emphasis on things that help their army.

Auxiliary Grenade Launcher could just work like the Marine one then. I like the idea of special fire grenades, but that can be worked out later.

No problem with retinues the way you propose there. I should add more general options into the personal retinue entry (keeping the Shield Maiden idea from the other thread as a replacement for the bodyguards - note that I'm not getting the sexual reference there. This may require explanation).

Is this a symptom of fear of Terminators and storm shields? Realistically the only way around invulnerable saves is usually simple weight of fire forcing wounds - it's reliable enough, and Sisters do not suffer any lack of guns.

Partly that (and the only "realistic" way around it requires shooting - they don't get lots of useful attacks in HtH, so if they end up getting assaulted, lacking the ability to just step back and shoot*, they lose the game). When the enemy can just roll up and do that (altogether possible normally, though if you pour enough shots into them (at the exclusion of all else, and you're just screwed if they field Deathwing Terminators), and very probable in Planetstrike, where on turn 1 they can teleport in and assault you), it means you really want something to affect their Invulnerables so you can sometimes kill them in HtH before they shout "I WIN".

At any rate, what's your opinion on the general idea of blessed weapons being able to do something special? Less crazy would be a simple "Blessed Swords do X, Blessed Axes do Y and Blessed Polearms do Z" approach, of course.

Latheworld Hyper-penetrators were mentioned in Dark Heresy (possibly elsewhere as well). They're extremely dense bullets that are harder to fire without falling over, have a shorter range, deal more damage/have more penetration and are rending. I think I statted them up in the Retributors thread. Anyway, they named them that way, it's not my fault. It's also no worse than "Okay, I'll wheel around behind it with my Fists to Penetrate its defenceless rear. If you know what I mean." and similar.

Tempest rounds come from DH as well (and again, were statted up in the Retributors thread). They are electrically charged and either discharge on impact or explode into balls of plasma and electricity.

Even if you don't like those individual ones, do you generally agree with providing various ammo options? As it is, they're called Bolter Bitches, but they're not the best at boltering, it's just that they're stuck with bolters all the time and only rarely get a weapon that isn't a bolter. Giving Heroines and/or Celestians at least as many bolter-ammo options as Sternguard seems like a good idea if we want to actually encourage bolter use and have them keep that title, rather than the other title of "Cheap and crappy space marines".

Good point on Litanies. I don't like the Rage idea at all for the Passion, but anyway. Maybe it should simply give another Faith Point (that anyone can use if they're close enough, even if they've used another). That way, people have even more of a reason to hang close to the Heroine.

You convinced me on the grenade thing. But you gave me a better idea: sacred armour - even when dead, she still remains a bastion of faith, and so you keep the model there, still radiating all effects (Faith can be used within 12", or Litanies within 6", and so on). Possibly add the rule that SW Dread gets, where she then becomes an objective (in objective games), or grants the foe an extra kill point if no friendly models are within x" of her (in kill point games).

Not what to do re: the transport, then. I'd like there to be more options where regular Sisters benefit from her doing something, especially for squads of 20 (who generally just get free Frags in compensation for having to slog their way across the battlefield).

Fair enough on the SoS not being Soulless. And I'm loathe to make them Fearless, because Fearless is bad for anyone who's likely to end up in HtH combat - Know No Fear is a million times better. Although perhaps if they're all running about with 2+ saves it wouldn't hurt so much. Even if they're cut down with Power Weapons, their "Fearless Saves" are still 2+.

Otherwise, Fearless is more fitting of Sisters of Silence than Stubborn, and close combat options are severely lacking where Sisters of Silence are portrayed as a pursuit and live-capture organization. Bolter rounds generally do not preserve civilian psykers for the Black Ships and the Astronomican.

All I know of them is from the art book - Power Armour, Artificer Armour that could just about be called Terminator Armour (or even very nearly be called a transformation into a Walker vehicle), Rhinos, Bolters (lots of them), twin Bolt Pistols, Flamers, possibly twin Hand Flamers, and plenty of great CC weapons (Power Weapons, Power Fists/Lightning Claws, Relic Blades. Not a normal Chainsword in sight). Oh, and big, vicious dogs kept as "pets".

So perhaps more of a focus on their CC abilities, but the art does show them wielding a lot of bolt weapons.

Don't use "treat as" rules, when concerning wargear entries.

Fair enough.

And again, I like the idea of giving Daemons and Marked Chaos individuals something to worry about. Or saying "fluffwise, all orks are Psykic, therefore this is good against them. Likewise being affected by Synapse gets you penalised". As opposed to having abilities that affect about three things, all of which get divided into "Nobody uses them anyway." and "Special abilities that generally mean they don't care about your powers against them."

*Which is more a problem of the core rules themselves, where if you get shot, you can still assault, if you shoot, you can still be assaulted, but if you assault you can't be shot and if you are assaulted, you can't shoot. But I'd take my chances with the earth detonating and turning out to be filled with ice cream sooner than I'd take my chances with GW actually making a decent set of rules.

[Sister Acacia]

CHERUBIM:

Cherubim

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Cherubim	4	4	3	3	1	4	1	10	2+/4+
Sister Hospitaller	3	4	3	3	1	4	1 (2)	10	2+/4+
Sister Dialogus	3	4	3	3	1	4	1 (2)	10	2+/4+
Sister Famulus	3	4	3	3	1	4	1 (2)	10	2+/4+

Cherubim {HQ}..........90 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry	3 Shield Sisters	Artificer Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Suppression Shield Storm Bolter	Adepta Sororitas Retinue Faithful (1 Faith)	Rhino Repressor Immolator

One unit of Cherubim may be purchased if there is a Canoness in the army. They do not take up any HQ choices on their own, and need not actually be attached, though it works better if they are.

Special Rules:
Retinue: The Canoness does not count as an Independent character when attached to a squad of Cherubim. As such, she counts as part of the squad and wounds are allocated amongst them as normal.

Options:
Up to 7 additional Cherubim may be taken for +30 points each
One Cherubim may replace her Storm Bolter with a Power Weapon for free. (for +5 points?)
One Cherubim may replace her Storm Bolter with a Flamer for free.
One Cherubim may replace her Storm Bolter and Suppression Shield with a Heavy Flamer for free.
One Cherubim may replace her Storm Bolter with a Melta for +5 points.
One Cherubim may upgraded to be a Sister of Silence for +10 points

• This increases the unit's save against psyker powers provided by the Adepta Sororitas rule to 2+.

One Cherubim may replace her Storm Bolter with a Sacred Standard for +25 points

• Any friendly unit with a model within 12" and in LoS may automatically regroup at the beginning of their turn, even if they could not normally regroup.
• This may be upgraded to a Banner of the Order Militant for +25 points. This grants +1 A to every Adepta Sororitas model within 12".

The unit may also include a Sister Hospitaller for +40 points

• The Hospitaller is armed with a Bolt Pistol, Suppression Shield, Narthecium and Artificer Armour

[*]Narthecium: the unit is granted the Feel no Pain USR. This includes an attached character.[/list]The unit may also include a Sister Dialogus for +40 points

• The Sister Dialogus is Faithful and allows Faith powers to be activated near her as though she were the Heroine. She also carries the Litanies of Faith
• She also carries a Bolt Pistol, Suppression Shield and Artificer Armour

The unit may also include a Sister Famulus for +40 points

• The Sister Famulus has Artificer Armour, a Suppression Shield, a Bolt Pistol and a Holy Relic. She may replace her Suppression Shield with a Mancatcher for free.

---

CELESTIAN COMMAND SQUAD

Celestian Command

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Veteran Superior	4	4	3	3	1	4	2	9	3+
Celestian	4	4	3	3	1	4	1	9	3+

Celestian Command {HQ}..........95 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry	1 Veteran Superior 4 Celestians	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Bolter and Sarissa Bolt Pistol	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful (1 Faith) Holy Hatred Trigger Discipline	Rhino Repressor Immolator Aquila Lander, perhaps?

1 Celestian Command Squad may be purchased for each Palatine or Canoness in the army. They do not take any HQ slots of their own.

Options:
Up to 5 additional Celestians may be taken for +18 points each
Any Celestian except for the Veteran Superior may replace her Bolter with a Chainsword for free or a Combi-Weapon for +5 points
For every three models in the squad, one Celestian may replace her Bolter with one of the following:

• A Storm Bolter for +5 points
• A Flamer for+5 points
• A Meltagun for +10 points
• A Power Weapon for +10 points
• A Brazier of Holy Fire for +5 points
• A Power Stake for +15 points
• A Neural Whip for +15 points

One Celestian may replace her Bolter or Chainsword with one of the following:

• A Heavy Flamer for +10 points
• A Heavy Bolter for +10 points
• A Multi-Melta for +10 points
• An Eviscerator for +25 points

One Celestian may be upgraded to a Sister Hospitaller for +15 points

• The Hospitaller carries morphia and narthecium. This grants the "Feel No Pain" USR to the unit and any Independent Characters attached.

One Celestian may be upgraded to a Sister Dialogus for +15 points

• The Sister Dialogus is Faithful and allows Faith powers to be activated near her as though she were the Heroine. She also carries the Litanies of Faith

One Celestian may be upgraded to a Sister Famulus for +25 points

• The Famulus carries a Holy Relic and Rosarius, and may replace her Bolter with a Mancatcher for free.

One Celestian may be upgraded to a Celestian Imagifer and carry a Sacred Standard for +20 points
The Veteran Superior may replace her Bolter and/or Bolt Pistol with:

• A Chainsword for free
• A Combi-weapon for +10 points
• A Plasma Pistol for +15 points
• A Power Weapon for +10 points
• A Brazier of Holy Fire for +10 points
• A Pair of Neural Whips for +15 points
• An Eviscerator for +25 points

She may also carry Melta Bombs for +5 points

Trigger Discipline:
Celestian Command Squads are highly trained, able to fire their weapons even in the face of charging foes. If a Celestian Command Squad is not engaged in hand-to-hand combat, they may fire upon any foe who charges them, resolving a full shooting attack. If they deal at least 25% casualties, the foe must check Ld or flee, stopping the combat before it starts. Likewise if casualties are taken from the front, this may prevent them from reaching the squad at all.

Edited by Sister Acacia, 08 November 2009 - 05:13 AM.

[- 7eAL -]

AMMUNITION OPTIONS

Auxiliary Grenade Launcher could just work like the Marine one then. I like the idea of special fire grenades, but that can be worked out later.

Latheworld Hyper-penetrators were mentioned in Dark Heresy (possibly elsewhere as well). They're extremely dense bullets that are harder to fire without falling over, have a shorter range, deal more damage/have more penetration and are rending. I think I statted them up in the Retributors thread. Anyway, they named them that way, it's not my fault. It's also no worse than "Okay, I'll wheel around behind it with my Fists to Penetrate its defenceless rear. If you know what I mean." and similar.

Tempest rounds come from DH as well (and again, were statted up in the Retributors thread). They are electrically charged and either discharge on impact or explode into balls of plasma and electricity.

Special Ammunition: Celestian Command Squads carry a variety of rare, special ammunition to help take down their foes and remind people that the Boltgun is a feared weapon that brings death to the Emperor's enemies. When firing, before measuring distance or rolling any dice, declare what type of ammunition is being used. The same must be used for every model in the unit that is firing a boltgun. Note that special ammunition only fits Boltguns (including Combi-weapons), not Bolt Pistols, Storm Bolters or Heavy Bolters. No, if you transport them in an allied Land Raider Crusader they do not get to load their ammo into the Hurricane Bolters, forget it!

Even if you don't like those individual ones, do you generally agree with providing various ammo options? As it is, they're called Bolter Bitches, but they're not the best at boltering, it's just that they're stuck with bolters all the time and only rarely get a weapon that isn't a bolter. Giving Heroines and/or Celestians at least as many bolter-ammo options as Sternguard seems like a good idea if we want to actually encourage bolter use and have them keep that title, rather than the other title of "Cheap and crappy space marines".

If we do eventually go with the HQ-Inspired Faith system, then Sisters using Divine Guidance will get Rending. Considering that Rending makes a significant difference to armour renetration and wounding as compared to the codex Divine Guidance now, I wonder that additional ammunition options that provide greater Strength or better AP won't result in overkill. After all, Rending off HQ-Inspired Divine Guidance will apply to all weapons allowing a meltagun to roll a potential (8 + 2D6 + 2D3) for a maximum armour penetration of 26, and a heavy bolter to more or less suffice for the same purpose rolling (5 + D6 + D3) for armour penetration 14.

Other ammunition with strategic functions, such as blessed ammunition/dragonfire bolts and tempest rounds and holy promethium are acceptable because they affect combat strategy outside of simply killing enemies. Even hellfire rounds should be permissible for Heroines because they kill enemies in a different fashion that privileges monster-hunting. In all cases, special ammunition should be bought, rather than provided as a special rule or ability, because the moment that the Heroine or command squad buys power weapons or otherwise replaces their bolters, then the points paid for their special ammunitions goes to waste.

I can't see ammunitions being passed out to other Sisters of lesser rank than the Heroine and her command squad or Honour Guard, however. This is partly due to the increased expense involved in producing rare ammunitions for already expensive bolters, and partly because ammunition options have always been the traditional preserve of the Deathwatch - the only reason Sternguard get away with it is because chances are they were trained in the Deathwatch at some point during their careers. As in all cases, Deathwatch hold priority with respect to special ammunitions options and whatever such options are available to anyone else will similarly be available to the Deathwatch, so the highest ranks will recieve even the ability to use psycannon bolts normally reserved for the Daemonhunters alone.
The other problem involved in giving lesser units the ability to use special bolter ammunitions is expressed by the ammunition discussion over the Deathwatch Kill-teams, because we would simply end up with "cheap and crappy Sternguard". Honestly no matter who gets special ammunitions, though, they will all eventually end up being "cheap and crappy Deathwatch Veterans".

Trigger Discipline: Celestian Command Squads are highly trained, able to fire their weapons even in the face of charging foes. If a Celestian Command Squad is not engaged in hand-to-hand combat, they may fire upon any foe who charges them, resolving a full shooting attack. If they deal at least 25% casualties, the foe must check Ld or flee, stopping the combat before it starts. Likewise if casualties are taken from the front, this may prevent them from reaching the squad at all.

Maybe this would be a better Celestian ability than special ammunitions.


-----
OTHER ARMOURY AND WARGEAR

You convinced me on the grenade thing. But you gave me a better idea: sacred armour - even when dead, she still remains a bastion of faith, and so you keep the model there, still radiating all effects (Faith can be used within 12", or Litanies within 6", and so on). Possibly add the rule that SW Dread gets, where she then becomes an objective (in objective games), or grants the foe an extra kill point if no friendly models are within x" of her (in kill point games).

That is perfect. Here is a sample worded from Bjorn's rules.
Sacred armour: Sacred armour is ancient and revered, relics worn by great saints and heroines of the Adepta Sororitas through the ages, or passed down between generations of leaders. Sacred armoour is equivalent to artificer armour. Additionally, when the Heroine dies, leave it in place lying on its side. Even in death the Heroine continues to inspire Faith, and other Faithful units can continue to draw range to her remains for the purposes of using Acts of Faith, as though she were alive.
If the mission uses objectives, the Heroine's remains are counted as an additional objective. If the mission uses kill points, the player forfeits an additional D3 kill points unless he has a model in contact with the Heroine at the end of the game.

Holy Relics I thought were being added - that was mentioned previously, though I wonder if you actually meant Relic Blades (and by that, actually meant Blessed Weapons).

The Holy Relic is identical to the Inquisitorial Mandate. Items of that type have disappeared from all armies, but I thought we might leave the Adepta Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy the only army with access to that item, but not as Heroine wargear. The Holy Relic would be available to a single bearer within the command squad instead - possibly the command squad Imagifier or the Sister Dialogus.
Since the Holy Relic and Order Standard would be tied to the command squad in this way, we could potentially use the Holy Relic bearer to function as a Faithful HQ character - so the Canoness and her command squad could operate separately and extend the useful area for Acts of Faith. That's just one example.

Similarly the Sacred Standard has been folded into other banners in other armies, and is available only to command squads. In the same way we could make the Sacred Standard the basic banner for a command squad Imagifier, and then provide the Order Banner as an upgrade.
Since HQ-Inspired Faith, and in fact most alternative approaches to the codex Faith system, rely on rolling Leadership or counting squad size rather than rolling around the squad size, the codex Simacrulum Imperialis carried by Imagifiers is relatively useless. Most alternative approaches to the Faith system would also throw out Light of the Emperor anyway. We could revise that rule also so that the Imagifier allows Sisters to regroup even when under half-strength. Nothing helps a squad regroup and gather quite like a banner pole waving around overhead, after all.

Good point on Litanies. I don't like the Rage idea at all for the Passion, but anyway. Maybe it should simply give another Faith Point (that anyone can use if they're close enough, even if they've used another). That way, people have even more of a reason to hang close to the Heroine.

Litanies of Faith could still potentially survive in more or less the same form it has now; it provides one free Act of Faith. This is much more significant under the HQ-Inspired Faith system, so its cost would increase.
As was suggested of the Holy Relic, we could also make Litanies of Faith available only through a Sister Dialogus. This would be even more useful if Litanies were provided to the Sister Dialogus because she is not a character who can use Acts of Faith on her own: we would be forced to make Litanies function in a radius drawn from the Sister Dialogus, providing one free Act of Faith to a Faithful unit within say half the normal distance. Again it is similar to the effect I suggested for the Holy Relic above.

Delegating these items to characters in the command squad seems fluffy as well, because it suggests that the nameless individuals in the Adepta Sororitas have a greater participation in functional roles. It is a massive organization composed of thousands of nameless individuals delegating simple functions amongst themselves, but the army doesn't seem to give that impression because so much responsibility is placed on the Heroines and characters at the top.
Amongst the Space Marines and Grey Knights it is somewhat different because most Marines and Knights are uniform in their long laundry list of personal achievements, and identical in training, dedication and functional roles. The only Marines and Knights that stand out are the Champions, the Captains, Chaplains, etc. specialized roles.


-----
COMMAND SQUAD AND RETINUE

No problem with retinues the way you propose there. I should add more general options into the personal retinue entry (keeping the Shield Maiden idea from the other thread as a replacement for the bodyguards - note that I'm not getting the sexual reference there. This may require explanation).

If I recall correctly, Melissia objected to "Shield Maidens" previously. I personally agreed, since "Shield Sisters" and "Shield Maidens" does not properly convey the value inherent in an Honour Guard type of unit. It has an Eowyn daughter of the House of Eorl sort of connotation: a female warrior, but neither seasoned fighter nor a trained soldier, and especially a young female warrior who only has an interest in fighting until she loses her "maidenhood".
The term "Cherubim" which was suggested by Melissia and I, however, implies an eternal dedication to a religious cause, and the term fits well in the thematic pattern of Sororitas unit names. Additionally, Cherubim are defined in Christian mythology as being guardians, in contrast to Seraphim who are described as a choir and a flame. Beyond the direct connection and communication between the two ranks of angels, Cherubim fulfill the highest defensive role while the Seraphim fulfill the highest offensive one - this can be very aptly reflected in the arrangment of Sororitas units as well.

Absolute Devotion: The Canoness may allocate the first wound she suffers in any given phase to a living Shieldsister model. This must be done before any saving throws are attempted. This only applies if she is attached to the Shield Sister unit.

Again awkwardly worded. It would also be better to produce a single rule for this effect, because the Grey Knight Retinue and some other Bodyguard units would need the same rule.
Retinue: Any Independent Characters that join the unit lose Independent Character status while they are attached to the unit, and are treated as upgrade characters as long as they are attached to the unit, but may still leave the unit as normal. This means that they do not need to be in base contact to participate in close combat, and cannot be targeted individually in close combat.
Absolute Devotion: Whilst a Cherubim/Shield Sister is alive, each time the unit is wounded by the enemy, up to two wounds allocated to the Canoness are instead resolved against the Cherubim.

The unit may include a Sister Hospitaller for +40 points
---Allows the Canoness to ignore one wound of her choice in any turn (again, assuming she is attached to the unit. She does not have teleporting narthecium). The Hospitaller is armed with a Bolt Pistol, Storm Shield and Artificer Armour

Why does the Sister Hospitaller's narthecium not provide Feel No Pain as is standard in the Space Marine and Imperial Guard codexi?
Also, is +40 points a reasonable price for a Sister Hospitaller? Considering that Sisters Hospitaller, Famulous, Imagifier and Dialogus are bought not as attached characters but upgrade characters to replace existing members of the unit, there is a hidden cost of their inclusion: the cost of the Sister who was replaced. Why are they bought as upgrade characters and not attached characters? If they are bought as attached characters, then a full unit of 10 Sisters would gain up to two or three additional models fulfilling those roles, and they would not be able to fit into a Rhino or Repressor. If they are bought as upgrade characters however, then they can only replace members of the unit already present, and would never be able to exceed the maximum unit size.

One Shieldsister may replace her Storm Bolter with a Power Weapon for free.
One Shieldsister may replace her Storm Bolter with a Flamer for free.
One Shieldsister may replace her Storm Bolter with a Heavy Flamer for +5 points.
One Shieldsister may replace her Storm Bolter with a Melta for +5 points.

A heavy flamer is a heavy weapon in all but function, and would replace both the storm bolter and the storm shield.

Why are not power weapons available to the whole squad?

Why are storm shields given here a 4+ invulnerable save instead of the Space Marine standard 3+ invulnerable save? Perhaps a Crusader-style or Arbites-style suppression shield would be more representative, since it provides a 4+ invulnerable save and counts as a basic close combat weapon. In the case of a suppression shield however, power weapons would have to become more expensive because they would gain +1 attack where the storm bolter does not.


-----
SHIELD OF FAITH AND ANTI-PSYKER WARGEAR

I'm happy to drop the water and incense - but in my experience, the regular save vs Psykers doesn't do them enough. The special Farseer character just lays down a whole bunch of powers, or the Daemon Prince/Chaos Sorcerer shouts "Stop! Warp Time!" and rushes unhindered into combat. So maybe, rather than making existing targeted-powers even harder, it'd be better to increase their breadth: allow a chance of negating powers people use on themselves (Warp Time, for instance) or Daemon Powers that are effectively ranged weapons (Gaze, Flames etc.), and even mess with all those things that should be called Psykers but aren't (anything benefiting from Synapse, all Orks).

And again, I like the idea of giving Daemons and Marked Chaos individuals something to worry about. Or saying "fluffwise, all orks are Psykic, therefore this is good against them. Likewise being affected by Synapse gets you penalised". As opposed to having abilities that affect about three things, all of which get divided into "Nobody uses them anyway." and "Special abilities that generally mean they don't care about your powers against them."

This I will take to the Faith thread, under the auspices of Shield of Faith.


-----
INVULNERABLE SAVE-AFFECTING RULES

Is this a symptom of fear of Terminators and storm shields? Realistically the only way around invulnerable saves is usually simple weight of fire forcing wounds - it's reliable enough, and Sisters do not suffer any lack of guns.

Partly that (and the only "realistic" way around it requires shooting - they don't get lots of useful attacks in HtH, so if they end up getting assaulted, lacking the ability to just step back and shoot*, they lose the game). When the enemy can just roll up and do that (altogether possible normally, though if you pour enough shots into them (at the exclusion of all else, and you're just screwed if they field Deathwing Terminators), and very probable in Planetstrike, where on turn 1 they can teleport in and assault you), it means you really want something to affect their Invulnerables so you can sometimes kill them in HtH before they shout "I WIN".

Nothing else in the game is specifically designed to handle Terminators with storm shields, except the C'tan and Pariahs - I don't see why or how the Sisters should be any exception. No other units in the game can ignore both a 2+ armour save and a 3+ invulnerable save at the same time - only one or the other. Most players are fully aware that assault Terminators with storm shields are simply a one-trick pony anyway, and barring Crusader-Redeemer delivery, they can simply be tied up by throwing expendable units at them.


But honestly, special abilities tend to fall into those categories because special abilities designed to counter special abilities results in Rock-Paper-Scissors and powergaming combinations, rather than proper strategic thinking and creativity. When Games Workshop designed Codex Daemonhunters, they saw exactly that problem because Daemons were helpless against the Grey Knights unless the Grey Knights were made extremely expensive, and Grey Knights were effectively crippled against other armies unless they were significantly cheaper.

Getting abilities against Daemons or Orks or Tyranids or Terminators isn't about getting at chance to stop them before they shout "I win", but rather opening a possibility for players to deny key enemy abilities and strategies in a way that says "now you can't win". It was stupid enough that storm shields became 3+ invulnerable because it effectively denies all the best of Tau shooting - a whole army rendered useless because they can no longer employ their specialization.
That's equivalent to fielding the Sisters without Faith, or Necrons without We'll Be Back - what would the army be all about? Nothing - it's just another bullsh- power armour army.

[Sister Acacia]

If we do eventually go with the HQ-Inspired Faith system, then Sisters using Divine Guidance will get Rending. Considering that Rending makes a significant difference to armour renetration and wounding as compared to the codex Divine Guidance now, I wonder that additional ammunition options that provide greater Strength or better AP won't result in overkill.

True, but I wouldn't bank on Rending happening reliably. Playing Mathhammer, a squad of 20 Sisters (Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and the VSS keeps her Bolter) makes 16 Bolter shots. ~11 of these hit, and between the flamers we're looking at ~7 hits. So 18 hits. On average, that's 3 rends to Wound if we're talking about shooting Space Marines (note: if we're talking about MCs, where ONLY rending will Wound, then there are fewer hits to begin with as the flamers only get 1 hit each). On average, there are 6 regular Wounds too, so 3 Marines auto-die unless it's a Combat squad, which it probably is, in which case only 2 auto-die. Against a vehicle, that's three rending for 11-13, meaning they're still only actually shooting Rhinos and Chimerae and Raiders and such. That being said, it's not like the special ammo options were helping there either - I don't see a problem with regular weapons not being able to make Land Raiders explode.

Anyway, the point is, Rending is certainly good, but it's not reliable. You can't say "I'm going to use these guys for X, and thanks to rending they should be fine" in the same way that you can for FNP, Furious Charge, InfiltrateOutflank (actually, bad example, that one: you can't plan for when they arrive, or even what edge, so it's another risky one that can sometimes save the dayt) and so on.

Other ammunition with strategic functions, such as blessed ammunition/dragonfire bolts and tempest rounds and holy promethium are acceptable because they affect combat strategy outside of simply killing enemies. Even hellfire rounds should be permissible for Heroines because they kill enemies in a different fashion that privileges monster-hunting. In all cases, special ammunition should be bought, rather than provided as a special rule or ability, because the moment that the Heroine or command squad buys power weapons or otherwise replaces their bolters, then the points paid for their special ammunitions goes to waste.

Fair enough, that makes sense to me.

ammunition options have always been the traditional preserve of the Deathwatch

Ah. I didn't know this - my knowledge of most of the factions is equal to how much I care about them. Which, for Space Marines, tends to be ~0, even if their special paint job means that they're entitled to their own codex before anyone else. In that case, I'm fine with either restricting it to Heroines or even dropping it and looking for another way to make them the supreme Bolter Bitches.

So it looks like we need to do one of three things:
A. Just say "Screw the previous Codex, if we only allow the Trinity of weapons, they're only going to be SM with worse stats and less gear" and grant them more weapon types right off the bat.
B. Make their bolt weapons inherently better (Storm Bolters as Assault 3, Heavy Bolters as S6 AP3 and so on) so that people are remotely scared of them
or C. Give them special abilities. My favourite would be "I don't care that I'm in an assault, I still shoot." (whether it be by resolving their shooting in the assault, or having them step back and rapid fire, possibly letting the enemy charge them again.) Or "I fired, so you can't assault me at all/I shot you, so you can't assault at all". Which would really enforce their short range role.

Maybe this would be a better Celestian ability than special ammunitions.

I agree. It won't help on the following turns, but at least it does something useful for them. Kit them out with flamers and everything and allow them to screen.

That is perfect. Here is a sample worded from Bjorn's rules.

Excellent. I'm glad I'm coming up with some great ideas, and Bjorn was exactly what I had in mind.

The Holy Relic would be available to a single bearer within the command squad instead - possibly the command squad Imagifier or the Sister Dialogus.

Ah right, now I understand. That makes sense then. That works for the Dialogus, I suppose. Relic + Faithful. Or possibly that could be a role for the Famulus.

In the same way we could make the Sacred Standard the basic banner for a command squad Imagifier, and then provide the Order Banner as an upgrade.

No qualms here.

We could revise that rule also so that the Imagifier allows Sisters to regroup even when under half-strength. Nothing helps a squad regroup and gather quite like a banner pole waving around overhead, after all.

That seems pretty much perfect. A squad is shot down to three members, they get unlucky and fail their morale check, and run back... to the banner, where they regroup. And having regrouped, still count as scoring - possibly holding the objective that is the dead Heroine (should she meet such a fate with her retinue still standing nearby).

As was suggested of the Holy Relic, we could also make Litanies of Faith available only through a Sister Dialogus.

That's a good idea. And reading from the litanies seems a very Dialogus thing to do.

it suggests that the nameless individuals in the Adepta Sororitas have a greater participation in functional roles.

Nameless? I don't know about you, but I actually painted individual names on the bases for every single mini in my army. That's 100 names for Sisters (though vehicle crew, IG allies, Arbiters and Inquisitor retinues are nameless).

And your suggested idea works even better because of this: I can actually say "This is Sister Angelica, she carries the Relic. If I even see you place a single nob biker on the table, I will tell you her entire life story until you are so bored you shoot yourself in the head."

If I recall correctly, Melissia objected to "Shield Maidens" previously. I personally agreed, since "Shield Sisters" and "Shield Maidens" does not properly convey the value inherent in an Honour Guard type of unit.

Fair enough, it does sort of say to me "Someone who just carries a shield and protects you" rather than "Elite champion guardian tasked with keeping you alive."

It has an Eowyn daughter of the House of Eorl sort of connotation:

I... am not familiar with that.

Cherubim works. I can't remember if that's the name given to the flying metal baby servitors or not, but even if it is, that's no matter as nothing actually uses them in the game under that name.

Again awkwardly worded. It would also be better to produce a single rule for this effect, because the Grey Knight Retinue and some other Bodyguard units would need the same rule.

I'm completely happy to do so. I was merely putting it down as originally worded. I didn't want to change things as though to steal credit for the original idea.

Why does the Sister Hospitaller's narthecium not provide Feel No Pain as is standard in the Space Marine and Imperial Guard codexi?

Because that's the rule that was originally suggested. I would personally recommend making it Feel no Pain, just for cohesiveness, but I'm not sure that's my place to do.

Also, is +40 points a reasonable price for a Sister Hospitaller? Considering that Sisters Hospitaller, Famulous, Imagifier and Dialogus are bought not as attached characters but upgrade characters to replace existing members of the unit, there is a hidden cost of their inclusion: the cost of the Sister who was replaced. Why are they bought as upgrade characters and not attached characters? If they are bought as attached characters, then a full unit of 10 Sisters would gain up to two or three additional models fulfilling those roles, and they would not be able to fit into a Rhino or Repressor. If they are bought as upgrade characters however, then they can only replace members of the unit already present, and would never be able to exceed the maximum unit size.

I thought they were bought as attached characters. But again, at any rate, I was just recording it as I saw it.

Why are not power weapons available to the whole squad?
Why are storm shields given here a 4+ invulnerable save instead of the Space Marine standard 3+ invulnerable save?

I think it was you who was against a whole squad of 2+/3+ Power Weapon users in the first place (and Pyriel, obviously, but he seemed to be against quite a lot of things). It seemed that general argument over the following pages resulted in the decision of limited choices and weaker Inv saves. Fair enough on the Heavy Flamers needing both hands.

This I will take to the Faith thread, under the auspices of Shield of Faith.

Cool, thanks.

Nothing else in the game is specifically designed to handle Terminators with storm shields, except the C'tan and Pariahs - I don't see why or how the Sisters should be any exception.

Fair enough. I suppose one can always just tell Deathwing players "no, off." until they get the message and play another army. And seeing as this is an unofficial codex, it's not like it'd be getting used in tournaments (where you can't tell your opponent that) anyway.

barring Crusader-Redeemer delivery, they can simply be tied up by throwing expendable units at them.

Again, you rule out any situation where they're allowed to DS and assault in the same turn: Deathwing armies and Planetstrike games.

Getting abilities against Daemons or Orks or Tyranids or Terminators isn't about getting at chance to stop them before they shout "I win", but rather opening a possibility for players to deny key enemy abilities and strategies in a way that says "now you can't win".

I can't see much of a difference between the two, there. But surely being able to take "now your Teleportation/Mark of X/Daemon Gift/Synapse/Ork Gestalt doesn't work/provides you with a harsh weakness" is an example of that, denying them their strategy?

[- 7eAL -]

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CELESTIAN COMMAND SQUAD

If we do eventually go with the HQ-Inspired Faith system, then Sisters using Divine Guidance will get Rending. Considering that Rending makes a significant difference to armour renetration and wounding as compared to the codex Divine Guidance now, I wonder that additional ammunition options that provide greater Strength or better AP won't result in overkill.

True, but I wouldn't bank on Rending happening reliably. Playing Mathhammer, a squad of 20 Sisters (Flamer, Heavy Flamer, and the VSS keeps her Bolter) makes 16 Bolter shots. ~11 of these hit, and between the flamers we're looking at ~7 hits. So 18 hits. On average, that's 3 rends to Wound if we're talking about shooting Space Marines (note: if we're talking about MCs, where ONLY rending will Wound, then there are fewer hits to begin with as the flamers only get 1 hit each). On average, there are 6 regular Wounds too, so 3 Marines auto-die unless it's a Combat squad, which it probably is, in which case only 2 auto-die. Against a vehicle, that's three rending for 11-13, meaning they're still only actually shooting Rhinos and Chimerae and Raiders and such. That being said, it's not like the special ammo options were helping there either - I don't see a problem with regular weapons not being able to make Land Raiders explode.

Anyway, the point is, Rending is certainly good, but it's not reliable. You can't say "I'm going to use these guys for X, and thanks to rending they should be fine" in the same way that you can for FNP, Furious Charge, InfiltrateOutflank (actually, bad example, that one: you can't plan for when they arrive, or even what edge, so it's another risky one that can sometimes save the dayt) and so on.

Rending does however grant a significant edge as compared to Divine Guidance now, and so far as I've seen the Sisters have had no serious trouble against vehicles and Monstrous Creatures - though the burden falls a little too heavily on Exorcists. That alone can be remedied easily by fixing the costs of Immolators, making them more affordable as Exorcist alternatives in small games and as Ophanim and Retributor transports.

Divine Guidance was AP1 - thus improving damage results against vehicles - but it could not touch Monstrous Creatures at all, and could only touch AV10 on vehicles. A Rhino's front face was still out of the question. The player still needs to roll a 6 on armour penetration in both cases, but glancing on AV13 allows Sisters to threaten even the front face of a Predator. Reliability was never really part of the deal in terms of Divine Guidance, but it was useful enough that if ever a Battle squad used an Act of Faith it would either be this, or Spirit of the Martyr. Divine Guidance was never meant to be the one-trick solution to all of the Sisters' problems, and that approach continues to hold true, especially since most Sisters units are not like Marines in that they are not designed to handle all possible situations, but rather play a particular role through various lesser tweaks.

All the various ammunitions do their own nifty powerful things, but when combined with Rending these things get pushed over the top. Nobody really wants to deal with a squad of Celestians popping out of a Fast Rhino with Rending Dragonfire bolts, for example, especially when we were irritated enough when Sternguard gated or drop-podded in and did almost the same thing. Most people objected to Rending assault cannons when they were introduced in 4th Edition - but a whole squad with Rending bolters, flamers and heavy bolters would be no less stunning now. Assuming it comes at a reasonable price or at some other usage cap like the single-use stipulation on combi-weapons or the three-model cap on Scout bike grenade launchers, then it's more acceptable because there's a limit to how much it can be used or abused.

ammunition options have always been the traditional preserve of the Deathwatch

Ah. I didn't know this - my knowledge of most of the factions is equal to how much I care about them. Which, for Space Marines, tends to be ~0, even if their special paint job means that they're entitled to their own codex before anyone else. In that case, I'm fine with either restricting it to Heroines or even dropping it and looking for another way to make them the supreme Bolter Bitches.

So it looks like we need to do one of three things:
A. Just say "Screw the previous Codex, if we only allow the Trinity of weapons, they're only going to be SM with worse stats and less gear" and grant them more weapon types right off the bat.
B. Make their bolt weapons inherently better (Storm Bolters as Assault 3, Heavy Bolters as S6 AP3 and so on) so that people are remotely scared of them
or C. Give them special abilities. My favourite would be "I don't care that I'm in an assault, I still shoot." (whether it be by resolving their shooting in the assault, or having them step back and rapid fire, possibly letting the enemy charge them again.) Or "I fired, so you can't assault me at all/I shot you, so you can't assault at all". Which would really enforce their short range role.

Of the various possibilities, Trigger Discipline or something like it is probably best, because it demonstrates a reactive practice suited to concentrated urban combat - that is theoretically the Sisters' most likely battleground in the same way that Space Marines fight in fortified complexes out of drop pods, and same way that Imperial Guard fight across trenches and extended frontlines. Trigger Discipline is certainly a better choice than say, Counter-Attack because Counter-Attack will sometimes force models to move out of cover to come into contact with the enemy. That is not a problem for Space Wolves on barren ice worlds, but is incredibly dangerous for Sisters defending the ruins of a cathedral or reclaiming an shelled-out city quarter. They do not want to advance out of cover or away from the combat group in the first place.

Trigger Discipline is probably best resolved as a free full round of shooting against the first enemy unit that attempts to charge into it - there is only time enough to turn and squeeze off shots against one target, never mind shooting in two directions if faced with a Hormagaunt pincer attack. Assuming HQ-inspired Faith, the squad cannot declare The Passion during the enemy turn anyway, but if they declared The Passion the previous turn and have Counter-Attack active when they're charged, then must choose one or the other. Denying a charge entirely would completely negate any chance of victory for Daemonettes, Berserkers, Orks, Kroot, Ogryns and so on.
This is all very complicated with Celestians, however, because Celestians may have a number of power weapons or sarissas and probably have Holy Hatred or Preferred Enemy. Is it acceptable to get a full free round of shooting, and then draw power weapons with +1 attack and Preferred Enemy in the following close combat? Furthermore, Celestians are supposed to be specialists in close combat - why would they react to close combat by starting a round of shooting?


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CHERUBIM HONOUR GUARD

It has an Eowyn daughter of the House of Eorl sort of connotation:

I... am not familiar with that.

Cherubim works. I can't remember if that's the name given to the flying metal baby servitors or not, but even if it is, that's no matter as nothing actually uses them in the game under that name.

I wonder where you have been for the last ten or fifty years, that you have somehow found your way into this relatively obscure hobby but have managed to miss out on the Lord of the Rings.
In any case "cherubim" is the lay term for the "flying metal baby servitors", but the technical term for creatures of that appearance is "putti" from an early Italian word meaning "child". Only in the English language are the terms "cherubim" meaning putti and "Cherubim" meaning the class and rank of angels found conflated.

Why are not power weapons available to the whole squad?
Why are storm shields given here a 4+ invulnerable save instead of the Space Marine standard 3+ invulnerable save?

I think it was you who was against a whole squad of 2+/3+ Power Weapon users in the first place (and Pyriel, obviously, but he seemed to be against quite a lot of things). It seemed that general argument over the following pages resulted in the decision of limited choices and weaker Inv saves. Fair enough on the Heavy Flamers needing both hands.

It is quite one thing for Celestians to have power weapons and storm shields but it is another matter entirely for the Cherubim, who are but a single unit selection released by a Canoness, who do not have Celestian Holy Hatred/Preferred Enemy, and cannot be selected for other Force Organization slots. Cherubim do not even have identical wargear to Celestians, because Celestians are armed in Ultragrit fashion using bolters, bolt pistols and a close combat weapon whereas Cherubim have a storm bolter and shield but no dedicated close combat weapon.

Of course I still personally find 3+ Invulnerable storm shields difficult to accept under any circumstance unless they carry the same price tag as in the Space Wolves codex. As an alternative, again I suggest suppression shields which are a little lighter defensively, but provide the important offensive bonus of functioning as a basic close combat weapon if used with something like a power weapon or pistol. I also assumed that since you started the thread that you'll also be maintaining the record of changes and suggestions made, at the top.


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Nothing else in the game is specifically designed to handle Terminators with storm shields, except the C'tan and Pariahs - I don't see why or how the Sisters should be any exception.

Fair enough. I suppose one can always just tell Deathwing players "no, off." until they get the message and play another army. And seeing as this is an unofficial codex, it's not like it'd be getting used in tournaments (where you can't tell your opponent that) anyway.

barring Crusader-Redeemer delivery, they can simply be tied up by throwing expendable units at them.

Again, you rule out any situation where they're allowed to DS and assault in the same turn: Deathwing armies and Planetstrike games.

Getting abilities against Daemons or Orks or Tyranids or Terminators isn't about getting at chance to stop them before they shout "I win", but rather opening a possibility for players to deny key enemy abilities and strategies in a way that says "now you can't win".

I can't see much of a difference between the two, there. But surely being able to take "now your Teleportation/Mark of X/Daemon Gift/Synapse/Ork Gestalt doesn't work/provides you with a harsh weakness" is an example of that, denying them their strategy?

That's exactly it - denying them their strategy. That's exactly what we want to avoid because wargear and special rules that provide that function are effectively broken, unless prohibitive restrictions are placed upon their use. As has been said before, rules and wargear that deny basic enemy abilities turn the game into rock-paper-scissors.

It is the primarily player's responsibility to tackle problems within the enemy strategy. As long as rules and wargear are sufficiently balanced, the game should effectively be similar to chess.
I don't even see how Synapse or Ork Mob Rule, Chaos Marks or Gifts and Deep Strike are major problems. Fearlessness allows enemy troops to keep advancing, but as they advance they walk directly into Rapid Fire range. Deep Strike similarly get enemy troops into a short distance, but they are generally unable to move or assault on the turn in which they arrive, making them vulnerable just within range of return fire. It is the player's responsibility to manage that critical striking distance where necessary, in the same way it is the opponent's responsibility to manage critical striking distance as well. It becomes an issue of the player and the opponent trying to force their own combat advantages through strategic choices and the applications of force and guile.

Problems found within Apocalypse and Planetstrike games are, in theory, not matters resolved within the standard codex, because the scale of combat and the game balancing involved in the expansions are entirely different.
If you seriously have problems defending against enemies who are Deep Striking and assaulting, then you should play like Dark Eldar by turning the defense around. Even as the defender, you must play as if you are the attacker, holding troops in reserve if necessary so that you can manage a striking distance and prevent the enemy from immediately pushing into close combat.

[Sister Acacia]

Rending does however grant a significant edge as compared to Divine Guidance now,

That's true.

though the burden falls a little too heavily on Exorcists. That alone can be remedied easily by fixing the costs of Immolators

Which is a good idea to me, given I own a pair of Immolators and no Exorcists.

Divine Guidance was never meant to be the one-trick solution to all of the Sisters' problems,

That's certainly fair enough. I guess it means they have a chance of stopping MCs and vehicles before the Seraphim arrive to inferno it, likewise letting the Exorcists focus on something else, but if it fails, they should still have those other options there - by using DG, they're not stopping those units from helping them.

Most people objected to Rending assault cannons when they were introduced in 4th Edition

Wasn't that back when rending was awesome, though? 6 to hit is automatic wound, no save (possibly no saves of any kind? I forget) and +1d6 Pen? It's sad that, because SM got a ranged rending weapon, rending as a whole got weakened which in turn screwed the tyranids over, but I suppose that's what SM do best: piss everyone off.

Of the various possibilities, Trigger Discipline or something like it is probably best, because it demonstrates a reactive practice suited to concentrated urban combat

It's the one I like best as well. I suppose we'll need to specify when it triggers - for the purpose of all those Flamers. But it fits them thematically and helps reinforce their close-range shooting role.

Trigger Discipline is probably best resolved as a free full round of shooting against the first enemy unit that attempts to charge into it

Agreed. Or possibly "any one unit that attempts to charge into it." so that people don't send five grots in, then 40 boyz. But only one turn of shooting total, certainly.

if they declared The Passion the previous turn and have Counter-Attack active when they're charged, then must choose one or the other.

That sounds reasonable to me - they're probably wielding bolters, which are "no charging" weapons, and they're too busy standing and shooting.

Is it acceptable to get a full free round of shooting, and then draw power weapons with +1 attack and Preferred Enemy in the following close combat?

Well, I see no problems with it, using later codices as the balance point. However possibly it should be ruled that anyone who uses a pistol to shoot has to use their pistol (plus CCW/power weapon if they have one) in CC, likewise anyone who uses a RF/Assault weapon has to use that and just get the base attacks (Sarissas still count for bolters). So you can't go "Flamer -> BP+Power Sword", likewise you can't go "Plasma Pistol -> Eviscerator".

Furthermore, Celestians are supposed to be specialists in close combat - why would they react to close combat by starting a round of shooting?

I'm not certain they really specialise in CC - they're no better at it than at shooting, after all, and can choose to load up on flamer weapons and just torch enemies. They seem more generalist to me - better at CC than Sisters (that doesn't say much), but still fine at shooting. That being said, I have no qualms with giving Sisters in general Trigger Discipline to emphasise their shooting, and to leave it out for Celestians, Seraphim and Heroines (to show that they're equally about charging in).

Indeed, a general TD ability would be really handy: want to charge the Retributors that are guarding the Exorcist? You'll need to soak up 12 HB shots first (though any surviving models will essentially kill them easily in HtH - it's a tactical decision on their part). Want to force the 20 Sisters into lockdown so they can't move or shoot for the rest of the game (assuming you somehow don't kill them all first)? Sure, you can do that, after you eat a flamer template, a heavy flamer template, and 36 bolter rounds.

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I wonder where you have been for the last ten or fifty years, that you have somehow found your way into this relatively obscure hobby but have managed to miss out on the Lord of the Rings.

Oh right. I read it over ten years ago, and didn't like it. So I forgot about everything except the basic characters and plot.

It is quite one thing for Celestians to have power weapons and storm shields but it is another matter entirely for the Cherubim, who are but a single unit selection released by a Canoness, who do not have Celestian Holy Hatred/Preferred Enemy, and cannot be selected for other Force Organization slots.

Okay, so given their other limitations it becomes okay. Cool.

Of course I still personally find 3+ Invulnerable storm shields difficult to accept under any circumstance unless they carry the same price tag as in the Space Wolves codex. As an alternative, again I suggest suppression shields which are a little lighter defensively, but provide the important offensive bonus of functioning as a basic close combat weapon if used with something like a power weapon or pistol. I also assumed that since you started the thread that you'll also be maintaining the record of changes and suggestions made, at the top.

Suppression Shield works for me, and I'll go document all that at the top, sure.

That's exactly it - denying them their strategy. That's exactly what we want to avoid because wargear and special rules that provide that function are effectively broken, unless prohibitive restrictions are placed upon their use. As has been said before, rules and wargear that deny basic enemy abilities turn the game into rock-paper-scissors.

Except the strategy of Sisters is "get in so close that they can assault you, then shoot them". The whole of their ability lies in shooting. Yet anyone who can assault can deny their entire strategy. That's why I feel either it's okay to do that to anyone and everyone, or it's not okay for anyone (in which case Sisters should just be able to escape out of combat like the Callidus and open fire, so that assaulting doesn't deny them their strategy - it even lets the Furious Chargers furiously charge them each time, so it's not entirely one-sided).

As long as rules and wargear are sufficiently balanced, the game should effectively be similar to chess.

Yes, and that would be nice - if the rules were balanced. But they're not, so we have to try to balance it codex by codex. SoB not only needed more options and choices, they needed a complete upgrade in power. They need to be on the same level as the SM, Wolves, IG and Orks, which by definition means they need to be so good as to cause a lot of whining amongst the general community. Good enough that, were they not my army of choice, I would be complaining at great length about it.

I don't even see how Synapse or Ork Mob Rule, Chaos Marks or Gifts and Deep Strike are major problems.

Synapse isn't, but it's one of those fluff things and we need more things to count as psykers/powers so that they actually have something to fight. I believe I have only once ever encountered a psyker. Wait, twice, hive tyrants. The other time was an Eldar special character who rolls 3d6 and picks the best 2 for his checks and uses several powers per turn, mostly on himself (thus no save against them). Likewise Ork Mob Rule is a case where the fluff says it's a psyker thing (and anything to penalise them has to be good). It'd be really good for when they get too close, take 25% casualties from shooting, and suddenly find they have to use their actual Ld and run away, as opposed to having a special rule to counter their weakness (just like all their cheap strong guns have a low BS as a "weakness"... but are twin-linked). Chaos Marks again are a fluff thing, though it would take the edge off fighting them (usually in CC where for mot sisters it's not going to make a difference anyway). Gifts? Again, fluff. The only Gift I really don't like is the "You turn into a Chaos Spawn!" one.

And DS I only have a problem with in any of the instances where you can DS+Assault in the same turn. Which is mainly a PS thing, but there's an all-Terminator army that can do that in regular play.

Fearlessness allows enemy troops to keep advancing, but as they advance they walk directly into Rapid Fire range.

Except that my rapid fire range is their charge range. Tactically, it plays out like this: either I get close enough to RF, do so, then on their turn they move, shoot and assault, or I stay out of the range, they move (maybe shoot), I then RF as they walked into range, then they shoot + assault on their turn.

Problems found within Apocalypse and Planetstrike games are, in theory, not matters resolved within the standard codex, because the scale of combat and the game balancing involved in the expansions are entirely different.

True, except GW are never going to give any support to the SoB. And if we say "Well, they're not going to print this as an official codex anyway, who cares what they say and how they do things?" we can just add a section for support for those things. The codex could have a chapter for PS/Apoc options.

If you seriously have problems defending against enemies who are Deep Striking and assaulting, then you should play like Dark Eldar by turning the defense around.

Well, as the defender in PS, it's easy: sit in bastions where you can shoot and they can't target you directly. Take as many interceptor weapons as possible to pop people who DS, as well as the Krak Attack stratagem. Playing as the attacker is also fun: flamers hit 1d6 models inside the bastion. Ophanim + Immolator will turn a fortress into a BBQ. But in normal play, against Deathwing, the only option is to say "no, you." then go home, load up on codeine and look at porn instead of playing.

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Really, Trigger Discipline or better still Jump Back for the entire shooty side of the army would be the answer to basically all of my probems. It would also give them their niche without stepping on any toes (and is fluffy, given their approach to combat. They have to be up in your face all the time, so they should be used to leaping away and firing).

[- 7eAL -]

Of the various possibilities, Trigger Discipline or something like it is probably best, because it demonstrates a reactive practice suited to concentrated urban combat

It's the one I like best as well. I suppose we'll need to specify when it triggers - for the purpose of all those Flamers. But it fits them thematically and helps reinforce their close-range shooting role.

Trigger Discipline is probably best resolved as a free full round of shooting against the first enemy unit that attempts to charge into it

Agreed. Or possibly "any one unit that attempts to charge into it." so that people don't send five grots in, then 40 boyz. But only one turn of shooting total, certainly.

The problem here is that a unit declares its charge and then moves its models before the next unit declares or moves anything. Depending on how the local community plays the Assault phase sequence, they may not permit players to take a free round of shooting after the first models are engaged in close combat. Particularly manipulative players will combine that with their wound allocation by putting the first models in contact, and then allocating wounds to the engaged models after being shot - thereby breaking the close combat when no more models are in reach, and assaulting with something else while the first squad can walk away to claim an objective or hop into a vehicle.

Besides, limiting it to the first enemy unit that attempts to charge is deliberate on my part because it provides a "workaround". It also provides a dilemma, because it forces the enemy to commit two units to one close combat. Is it actually worth the effort to have the Boyz squad charge first so that the Nobs don't get shot? Or is it better to let the Nobs get shot and send the Boyz to do something else? Chances are, the Sisters will lose the fight anyway and there won't be much of a difference. Or will the Sisters be able to kill enough Nobs with shooting that they can no longer fight effectively?

That's exactly it - denying them their strategy. That's exactly what we want to avoid because wargear and special rules that provide that function are effectively broken, unless prohibitive restrictions are placed upon their use. As has been said before, rules and wargear that deny basic enemy abilities turn the game into rock-paper-scissors.

Except the strategy of Sisters is "get in so close that they can assault you, then shoot them". The whole of their ability lies in shooting. Yet anyone who can assault can deny their entire strategy. That's why I feel either it's okay to do that to anyone and everyone, or it's not okay for anyone (in which case Sisters should just be able to escape out of combat like the Callidus and open fire, so that assaulting doesn't deny them their strategy - it even lets the Furious Chargers furiously charge them each time, so it's not entirely one-sided).

As long as rules and wargear are sufficiently balanced, the game should effectively be similar to chess.

Yes, and that would be nice - if the rules were balanced. But they're not, so we have to try to balance it codex by codex. SoB not only needed more options and choices, they needed a complete upgrade in power. They need to be on the same level as the SM, Wolves, IG and Orks, which by definition means they need to be so good as to cause a lot of whining amongst the general community. Good enough that, were they not my army of choice, I would be complaining at great length about it.

Fearlessness allows enemy troops to keep advancing, but as they advance they walk directly into Rapid Fire range.

Except that my rapid fire range is their charge range. Tactically, it plays out like this: either I get close enough to RF, do so, then on their turn they move, shoot and assault, or I stay out of the range, they move (maybe shoot), I then RF as they walked into range, then they shoot + assault on their turn.

Really, Trigger Discipline or better still Jump Back for the entire shooty side of the army would be the answer to basically all of my probems. It would also give them their niche without stepping on any toes (and is fluffy, given their approach to combat. They have to be up in your face all the time, so they should be used to leaping away and firing).

Then the question becomes - why don't the Guard or Tau have anything to say about enemies getting close and stopping them from shooting?
To an even greater extent than the Sisters, both those armies are wholly reliant on some sort of gunline or shooting platform to get the job done. In 5th Edition they have already gained a great respite in that enemies can no longer Consolidate into the next target after winning a close combat, leaving them out in the open for a turn if they win a close combat during their own turn. The Sisters however at least have better chances due to The Passion and Hand of the Emperor - with HQ-Inspired Faith, The Passion should allow them to strike even before Seekers and Heralds of Slaanesh, and Hand of the Emperor providing Strength 6 might very rarely be combined with Divine Guidance if somebody has Litanies of Faith or some other item that grants a free Act of Faith, to take out regular Terminators or monstrous creatures.

What with the Heroine and her command squad becoming a nice countercharge unit under HQ-Inspired Faith, and Celestians and Repentia getting fixed up, and Seraphim possibly getting a slight points break, the army probably wouldn't feel a lack for any countercharge or screening units at all. That's how Eldar, Guard and Tau have always dealt with close combat enemies at least - screen and countercharge or bait and switch, strategies that aren't embedded in squad wargear and weapons but rather in squad synergies and support.

Furthermore, Celestians are supposed to be specialists in close combat - why would they react to close combat by starting a round of shooting?

I'm not certain they really specialise in CC - they're no better at it than at shooting, after all, and can choose to load up on flamer weapons and just torch enemies. They seem more generalist to me - better at CC than Sisters (that doesn't say much), but still fine at shooting. That being said, I have no qualms with giving Sisters in general Trigger Discipline to emphasise their shooting, and to leave it out for Celestians, Seraphim and Heroines (to show that they're equally about charging in).

Fluff describes Celestians as "the most skilled fighters" and as "practitioners of the martial disciplines of the Daughters of the Emperor of old", rather than "the most skilled shooters". Additionally, Holy Hatred, Weapon Skill 4 and Initiative 4 all demonstrate close combat ability beyond the level of most line Sisters. Ballistic Skill 4 however does not show any improvement in shooting compared to line Sisters, so while they may be well-rounded combatants there is still some matter of preference going on for them.

And DS I only have a problem with in any of the instances where you can DS+Assault in the same turn. Which is mainly a PS thing, but there's an all-Terminator army that can do that in regular play.

If your Deathwing opponent has been playing Deep Strike and Assault the same turn, he has probably been abusing the rules. Deathwing Assault does not allow his Deathwing Terminators to charge into close combat on the same turn in which they arrive by Deep Strike. It only allows them to arrive on the first turn using Deep Strike rules, so they may only shoot or Run on the turn in which they arrive. The same applies to Chaos Daemons. I went to confirm this, and Vanguard Veterans remain the only unit that is able to charge into close combat on the same turn in which they arrive by Deep Strike, and they cannot Shoot or Run to get closer because they must declare Heroic Intervention before rolling for scatter.
Make sure you know your opponent's rules so they can't pull any fast ones. It isn't even a grey area in the rules.

Problems found within Apocalypse and Planetstrike games are, in theory, not matters resolved within the standard codex, because the scale of combat and the game balancing involved in the expansions are entirely different.

True, except GW are never going to give any support to the SoB. And if we say "Well, they're not going to print this as an official codex anyway, who cares what they say and how they do things?" we can just add a section for support for those things. The codex could have a chapter for PS/Apoc options.

The plan is not to assume such a fatalistic and pessimistic point of view, but rather to ignore what Games Workshop may or may not do while operating in a mode compatible with the existing systems. In this way should somebody pick up the material, it will not require significant reworking. The plan again was to address Planetstrike and Apocalypse options separately from the main codex rules, especially since Planetstrike and Apocalypse options produced before the main codex is complete might have to be worked over multiple times as the codex development progresses.

In any case if we got around to Apocalypse and Planetstrike, we wouldn't stop at a war chapel or mobile cathedral. The giant cathedral on the hill hides more than just an orbital defense laser - whether the Administratum approves of the Ministorum controlling weapons this size however ...

[Sister Acacia]

Thought: okay, in general HQ characters don't get Heavy weapons. I see no particular reason why this should be. Would it be problematic if Heroines could take Heavy weapons (with the option of a stabiliser that makes them Slow + Purposeful and can't be used with a Jump Pack)?

Besides, limiting it to the first enemy unit that attempts to charge is deliberate on my part because it provides a "workaround". It also provides a dilemma, because it forces the enemy to commit two units to one close combat.

True, though they can always use throwaway units - Grotz, W.O.N. Gaunts, Ripper bases, Scarabs (especially with the thing that summons them), infantry regiments, Scouts etc. But I suppose they still have to actually include the throwaway in their list to start with, and people usually aren't willing to dedicate points to "Something that will achieve very little other than to die."

Then the question becomes - why don't the Guard or Tau have anything to say about enemies getting close and stopping them from shooting?

In the case of Tau, good question. Maybe they will in their next codex, should they get one. Although they're more of a long-range army. Their trick is to start far away from the enemy and hope the enemy can't reach them at all. Guard, well... they have tanks, which pulverise you (usually from a distance) and tend not to worry about normal assaults (as for outflank assaults, they need to keep some infantry around as ablative armour). Other than that, they are divided into "Shoots you up from a distance (see Tau)" - the Heavy squads, and "Runs up and dies, but that's okay because you're basically guaranteed to wipe them out in one turn, meaning all the other squads can turn around and shoot you" (the infantry and conscripts, though even vets and penals could fill that role in a pinch). Or they sit in Chimerae, where the whole squad fires out of it along with the tank guns. IIRC, if someone tears your tank up in HtH, then they don't also get attacks on you, so though you might take some casualties or even run away, it's a potential 55pt shield.

Sisters don't specialise in long-range (the Tau, half the IG), they're not cheap and throwaway (the other half of the IG), and they can't sit in "Everybody shoot out" tanks that have impressive firepower of their own. Their tactic really is "Get in close and hope the enemy dies when you shoot them" (with Seraphim and Exorcists providing support where needed, and sending a Heroine as a bright-burning-star killing machine).

So unless we want to change that tactic, by flat-out turning them into a long-range army (we don't) or a melee army (we don't, in general), we need to make their existing tactic one that you can actually do during most turns. Or possibly by providing them with a dirt-cheap Troops choice that exists to screen and bog enemies down, such as a Battle Sisters Sunday School Religious-Word-For-Trainees/Newbies squad.

That's how Eldar, Guard and Tau have always dealt with close combat enemies at least

From what I've seen though, they don't do it that way: Eldar either just field a CC army of their own (Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Striking Scorpions, perhaps some Harlequins) or sit right back and snipe from a stationary point (a lot of their other stuff), sometimes setting them up in terrain where you *usually* need multiple turns to reach them so they can Bladestorm you when you get too close. A lot of their other, close-range-shooting things rarely get taken at all for that exact reason. Guard might do it the way you said - but basically, they can afford to by taking a whole bunch of cannon fodder teams (even then it's not so much a counter-charge, it's letting the squad die, then getting 4 or more other nearby squads to pile all their firepower into the enemy, with the grand total of those 5+ squads being under 200 points). And Tau try not to ever get close enough where they could be charged.

Fluff describes Celestians as "the most skilled fighters" and as "practitioners of the martial disciplines of the Daughters of the Emperor of old", rather than "the most skilled shooters". Additionally, Holy Hatred, Weapon Skill 4 and Initiative 4 all demonstrate close combat ability beyond the level of most line Sisters. Ballistic Skill 4 however does not show any improvement in shooting compared to line Sisters, so while they may be well-rounded combatants there is still some matter of preference going on for them.

That's a good point. It's not that they're bad at shooting, they're just no better than other Sisters, and they're better at face-stabbing than most Sisters. Perhaps I should allow Command Celestians to all take CC options (much like regular ones can all take combi-weapons).

If your Deathwing opponent has been playing Deep Strike and Assault the same turn, he has probably been abusing the rules. Deathwing Assault does not allow his Deathwing Terminators to charge into close combat on the same turn in which they arrive by Deep Strike. It only allows them to arrive on the first turn using Deep Strike rules, so they may only shoot or Run on the turn in which they arrive.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I just trust my opponent uses their rules properly. I know that Daemons can't DS+Assault normally, though. And I'm not too worried about Vanguard because it's one (expensive) squad that's 3 max.

The plan is not to assume such a fatalistic and pessimistic point of view,

I wouldn't call it that, it's just a matter of "When was the last time they even pretended the Witch Hunters (or for that matter the DE, Necrons and Daemon Hunters) even exist?" No codices in favour of "Codex: yet another paint scheme for SM", a single not-that-amazing transport in all of IA, a single Apocalypse stratagem (no formations, vehicles, characters or anything), and zero support in PS (aside from generic Imperial ones).

n any case if we got around to Apocalypse and Planetstrike, we wouldn't stop at a war chapel or mobile cathedral. The giant cathedral on the hill hides more than just an orbital defense laser - whether the Administratum approves of the Ministorum controlling weapons this size however ...

Heh, fair enough.

[Chengar Qordath]

Time to toss in my two throne on SoB HQs:

Even with Sister Acacia's suggestions, the Palatine is still a rather poor choice compared to Canoness. Right now, there is absolutely no reason anybody would ever buy a Palatine, which makes it a rather unappealing option. As a general rule, I'm not a fan of options that no sensible player would ever voluntarily take.

So, with that in mind I decided to revisit the Palatine on a concept level to come up with a good way to differentiate it from the Canoness, and I think I've hit upon an idea with some potential. If the Canoness is a leader and tactician, then logically the Palatine should be more of a heroic, lead from the front type of HQ. In other words, while the Canoness gets abilities that have potential to improve the entire army, the Palatine should have abilities that encourage her and her unit to get stuck in ASAP and stay in the thick of the fight for as long as possible. It gives the Palatine a somewhat more unique combat role and ability set than the current "Weaker, cheaper Canoness" concept gives her.

Also, WS/BS 5 ought to be the norm for all Sororitas HQs; when the Canoness was set at WS 4 no humans except Marines and special characters got WS 5, while now Marines are set at WS 6 and normal Guard HQs can run at WS 5. Sister HQs are built to be more assaulty than Guard HQs like the Commissar Lord, so going up to WS 5 seems entirely justified.

Edited by Chengar Qordath, 04 April 2010 - 06:24 AM.

[Sister Acacia]

Even with Sister Acacia's suggestions, the Palatine is still a rather poor choice compared to Canoness.

I agree with this. The fact is they are, as in the first, just a cheaper, less amazing, Canoness. Fixing this to be two different flavours could be great.

If the Canoness is a leader and tactician, then logically the Palatine should be more of a heroic, lead from the front type of HQ. In other words, while the Canoness gets abilities that have potential to improve the entire army, the Palatine should have abilities that encourage her and her unit to get stuck in ASAP and stay in the thick of the fight for as long as possible.

Well assuming you're not talking about a Faith-fuelled solo murder machine that curb-stomps a unit or two then gets dragged down and body-slammed, this could work. I mean, we don't want to turn them into the previous-version Canoness. But as a more melee-centric character (even just with Holy Hatred (as an example) and more melee options like the Celestians get), who can perhaps choose a special rule to apply to a unit she is attached to (rule selected when you first purchase her, not on a round-to-round basis). Or something like that.

Also, WS/BS 5 ought to be the norm for all Sororitas HQs; when the Canoness was set at WS 4 no humans except Marines and special characters got WS 5, while now Marines are set at WS 6 and normal Guard HQs can run at WS 5. Sister HQs are built to be more assaulty than Guard HQs like the Commissar Lord, so going up to WS 5 seems entirely justified.

Ah, I didn't realise that (though I thought the DE Archon WS/BS were pretty crazy by comparison). I can see changing them both to WS 5 being perfectly reasonable then.

[Chengar Qordath]

Well assuming you're not talking about a Faith-fuelled solo murder machine that curb-stomps a unit or two then gets dragged down and body-slammed, this could work. I mean, we don't want to turn them into the previous-version Canoness. But as a more melee-centric character (even just with Holy Hatred (as an example) and more melee options like the Celestians get), who can perhaps choose a special rule to apply to a unit she is attached to (rule selected when you first purchase her, not on a round-to-round basis). Or something like that.

I agree. While having an HQ that's a little more focused on getting into the thick of the battle makes the Palatine more unique and interesting, we definitely want to avoid going overboard and turning the Palatine into a "Nun of DOOM!"

[Judanas]

Maybe the Palatine could have a sort of "Pick a rule from this list, she confers it on herself and the squad she is with, these rules cost points" maybe with options;

Counter Attack: +10 points
Twin linked flamer and heavy flamer +15 points
Something else... x points...

Note: Those points are examples, not estimates of actual points costs.

Edit: Sort of like the Space Wolf Sagas, except they effect the entire squad she is with.

Edited by Judanas, 05 April 2010 - 03:52 AM.

[Furyou Miko]

I like Judanas' idea for giving the Palatine extra rules options for her squad. ^^

Maybe make the Blessed Weapon a Palatine option, and give the Canoness something else? Maybe a Sacred Auspex or something similar that either acts like a Mystic, or prevents the enemy infiltrating within 18" of her?

[Judanas]

Maybe make the Blessed Weapon a Palatine option, and give the Canoness something else? Maybe a Sacred Auspex or something similar that either acts like a Mystic, or prevents the enemy infiltrating within 18" of her?

I like that. Make the palatine very much the warrior woman while the cannoness is the tactical one and more inspiring.

Auspexs don't exist in most of the modern codexs and I assume we will be taking them out ourselves. How about we give her the option to buy one for more points that the 2 it is in the witchunters codex but boost it slightly. Make it more reliable. 2d6x2 instead of 4d6? Maybe 10 points? Or make it full blessed weapon good and have it be 30 points that does that + drops cover saves? Makes her a bit shooty, which fits a tactical leader a bit more.

I'm just throwing ideas out though.

[Sister Acacia]

Okay, a draft for the changed Heroines - changes in red:

PALATINE:

Palatine

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Palatine	5	5	3	3	3	5	3 (4)	10	3+/4+

Palatine {HQ}..........50 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry, Independent Character	1 Palatine	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Close Combat Weapon Bolt Pistol Rosarius	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful Faith Inspiring Battle Tactics	Rhino Repressor Immolator

Transport: a transport option may be selected for the Palatine as long as she does not have a Jump Pack and the vehicle has enough space for her and her retinue.

Retinue: a Palatine may attach herself to any Adepta Sororitas unit (except for Repentias) to treat them as a retinue. If she has a Jump Pack and the squad does not, she cannot use it without breaking away. Likewise if she attaches to Seraphim but lacks a Jump Pack, they must restrict themselves to her movement or break away.

Wargear:

• She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or CCW with:
  • a Boltgun with Sarissa for +5 points
  • a Burning Brazier for +10 points
  • a Power Weapon for +10 points
  • an Inferno Pistol for +15 points
  • a Plasma Pistol for +15 points
  • a Hand Flamer for +15 points
  • a Power Stake for +15 points
  • a Blazing Maul for +20 points
  • an Eviscerator for +25 points
  • a Blessed Weapon for +30 points
• She may replace both her Bolt Pistol and CCW with:
  • a pair of Neuro Whips for +10 points
  • a pair of Adamantine Chainswords for +15 points
  • a Fiery Scourge for +15 points
• She may also purchase:
  • Melta Bombs for +5 points
  • Holy Promethium (for Hand Flamer, Fiery Scourge or Burning Brazier) for +10 points
  • the Mantle of Ophelia for +15 points
  • an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher for +15 points
  • the Cloak of St. Aspira for +20 points
  • a Jump Pack for +20 points

Fiery Scourge: this functions as a 2-handed CCW that adds +1 to the user's Strength and gains the Rending USR. It may be fired as a Flamer in the Shooting phase, and once per game may instead be fired as a Heavy Flamer in the Shooting phase.

Adamantine Chainswords: this pair of close combat weapons gains the Rending Universal Special Rule and strikes at +1 Strength.

Auxiliary Grenade Launcher: works like the Space Marine version.

Battle Tactics: Palatines often fight in the thick of things, and lead the battle at the forefront. To survive doing so, they generally develop a variety of skills. Select one of the following when purchasing the Palatine:

• Angel's Flight: the Palatine, and any unit she is attached to, gains the Hit & Run Universal Special Rule.
• Rain of Fire: the Palatine and her unit may fire Bolters as 12" range Assault 1 weapons (and thus still charge)
• Dance of Death: after all attacks are resolved in a combat, but before determining the winner, the Palatine and all members of her unit may each make one additional attack, up to a maximum of the number of models they are in combat with.
• Murderous Onslaught: any time the Palatine charges an enemy, the entire unit she attacks (even those only in combat with a unit she is attached to) suffers a -1 penalty to Weapon Skill (minimum 1).
• Gun Fighters: any unit the Palatine is attached to may use Bolt Pistols as S 4 Close Combat weapons, Plasma Pistols as S 4 Power weapons, Inferno Pistols as S 5 Power Weapons and Hand Flamers as S 3 Power Weapons. The Palatine may use Bolt Pistols as S 4 Close Combat weapons, Plasma Pistols as S 6 Power Weapons, Inferno Pistols as S 7 Power Weapons and Hand Flamers as S 4 Power Weapons.
• Impaler: the Palatine, when charging, gains an extra Attack for every unsaved Wound she inflicts. Any unit she is attached to gains the same benefit, but only when using Sarissas.

---

CANONESS:

Canoness

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Canoness	5	5	3	3	3	4	3	10	3+/4+

Canoness {HQ}..........50 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry, Independent Character	1 Canoness	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Bolt Pistol Boltgun Rosarius	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful Faith Inspiring Blessings	Rhino Repressor Immolator

Transport: a transport option may be selected for the Canoness as long as she does not have a Jump Pack and the vehicle has enough space for her and her retinue.

Retinue: a Canoness may attach herself to any Adepta Sororitas unit (except for Repentias) to treat them as a retinue. If she has a Jump Pack and the squad does not, she cannot use it without breaking away. Likewise if she attaches to Seraphim but lacks a Jump Pack, they must restrict themselves to her movement or break away.

Wargear:

• She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or Boltgun with:
  • a Storm Bolter for +5 points
  • a Burning Brazier for +10 points
  • a Power Weapon for +10 points
  • a Combi-Weapon for +10 points
  • a Stake-Launcher for +10 points
  • an Inferno Pistol for +15 points
  • a Plasma Pistol for +15 points
  • a Hand Flamer for +15 points
  • a Ryza-Pattern Storm Bolter for +15 points
  • an Eviscerator for +25 points
  • a Blessed Weapon for +30 points
• She may replace both Boltgun and Bolt Pistol with:
  • a Heavy Flamer for +15 points
  • a Heavy Bolter for +15 points
  • a Multi-Melta for +25 points
• She may also purchase:
  • Melta Bombs for +5 points
  • a Sarissa for her Boltgun for +5 points
  • the Rule of the Sororitas for +5 points
  • Defensive Grenades for +10 points
  • Inferno rounds for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapons) for +10 points
  • Tempest rounds for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapons) for +10 points
  • Latheworld Hyper-Penetrators for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapon) for +10 points
  • an Advanced Auspex for +10? +15? points
  • the Mantle of Ophelia for +15 points
  • an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher for +15 points
  • Glorious Armour for +15 points
  • Orders of the Ecclesiarchy for +15 points
  • the Cloak of St. Aspira for +20 points
  • a Jump Pack for +20 points

Rule of the Sororitas: this book of lore and strategies assists the Canoness in deploying her forces. A single Adepta Sororitas unit of her choice may enter play from Reserves on the first turn of battle, without needing a Reserves roll. If they have the ability to Deep Strike, they may re-roll the Scatter (but must accept the second roll), if they have the ability to Outflank they may re-roll the die to determine which side they come from (but must accept the second roll), and if they have neither, they may enter play via Outflanking but do not get the re-roll.

Advanced Auspex: any enemy unit who enters play via Infiltrate, Secret Deployment or Deep Strike must roll 4d6+4 after determining their final location. If this number is equal to or greater than their distance (in inches) from the Canoness, the Canoness and any unit she is attached to may make a free shooting attack against them as though it was their Shooting phase. They must still be within range and be able to draw line of sight, however.

Orders of the Ecclesiarchy: once per battle, instead of firing a weapon, the Canoness may use her orders to call upon an incendiary bombardment anywhere on the battlefield: treat this as a S 4 AP 4 Heavy 5 Barrage, Blast that Ignores Cover. She can not do this if she moved in the Movement phase, just like firing a Heavy weapon, and if she cannot draw line of sight to the target point, she does not subtract her BS from the Scatter.

Ryza-Pattern Storm Bolter: this is simply a Storm Bolter that fires with the following profile: Range 24" S 4 AP 4 Assault 3

Glorious Armour the armour worn by the Canoness is as much a relic as anything else carried into battle. Although it does not affect the protective qualities, she is considered too valuable to leave lying on the field if killed: if removed from play for any reason, leave the model in place. This represents her armoured corpse, and all benefits to other models and units still apply (such as proximity for Acts of Faith/Litanies of Faith). Additionally, on the round following her death, all friendly units with a model within 12" gain the Furious Charge USR as they are filled with rage.

Blessings: the Canoness grants special benefits to her army, based on the wargear she selects.

• Jump Pack: The Canoness herself used to be a Seraphim, and she values their speed and morale boosting abilities. Seraphim may be taken as Elite choices as well as Fast Attack. If taken as an Elite choice, the entire unit may gain Holy Rage for +4 points per model
• Eviscerator: The Canoness was once a Mistress, or even a rare Repentia who managed to achieve salvation while living. Repentia squads may treat their Eviscerators and Neuro Whips as Mastercrafted. Additionally she may be attached to a Repentia squad as a retinue, keeping them under control (and thus able to take transports).
• Rhino or Repressor transport: the Canoness trains her Sisters to rapidly deploy via their vehicles. Battle Sister squads of 20 Sisters may split into pairs of 10-Sister Combat squads, and thus may still take transports.
• a Hand Flamer: the Canoness understands the true value of setting people on fire. All Flamers (including Braziers and Combi-Flamers) and Heavy Flamers used by Celestian squads gain the benefits of Holy Promethium.
• Inferno Pistol and Melta Bombs: the Canoness knows the weakness of human flesh against tanks, and has made sure to keep her troops equipped to deal with them. All Battle Sister squads may take Melta Bombs for +3 points per model.
• Boltgun with at least one Special Ammunition: the Canoness values the traditional Bolter and trains her Sisters to use it to their full potential. Any Adepta Sororitas unit within 12" of the Canoness may utilise the "Trigger Discipline" rule.

---

Trigger Discipline: the unit may fire upon the first unit, character or creature to charge them in the assault phase. After the enemy models have been moved into base-to-base contact, resolve a round of shooting. Enemies must test Ld if taking 25% casualties as usual, and if they flee, are wiped out, or have no models in base-to-base contact, the assault is cancelled. Note that the unit may not hold their fire to instead target the next unit to assault them that phase, even if the initial unit is pathetically weak, or too tough for them to be able to hurt. They cannot use this ability while already engaged in close combat.

---

Under this idea, Celestian Command squads would be "One may be taken (not taking up any HQ slot) for every Canoness" (as they have the option to be more Shooty and multi-purpose, even if they can also excel in hand to hand combat), and Cherubim squads would be "One may be taken (not taking up any HQ slot) for every Palatine" (as they are Assault Specialists designed to get attacked a lot).

---

Thoughts?

[Sister Acacia]

Actually, come to think of it, perhaps either could take Cherubim (because they can help either as a defensive retinue, really) or a Celestian Command squad (with options for either melee-centric or shooting-centric).

So Celestian Command could be:
5-10 with Bolt Pistol and Bolter with Sarissa
Any can:
-take a CCW
-replace Bolter with a second Bolt Pistol (Gun Fighters)
-replace Bolter + Sarissa with a Storm Bolter
-replace Bolter + Sarissa with a Combi-Weapon
-replace Bolter with a Power Weapon
One can replace Bolter with:
-Heavy Bolter
-Multi-Melta
-Mortar
-Eviscerator
-Inferno Pistol or pair of Inferno Pistols (Gun Fighters)
One can replace Bolter with:
-Heavy Flamer
-Blazing Maul
-two Neuro Whips
-Hand Flamer or pair of Hand Flamers (Gun Fighters)
One in three can replace Bolter or Bolt Pistol with:
-Flamer
-Melta
-Burning Brazier
-Mancatcher
-Plasma Pistol or pair of Plasma Pistols (Gun Fighters)

Thus allowing a variety of different weapons in a unit, and meaning a Canoness could take a retinue with Storm Bolters, Meltas, Flamers and so on, while a Palatine had a retinue with an Eviscerator, various paired pistols and power weapons. All with appropriate costs.

[- 7eAL -]

I'm flipping out over the rampant proliferation of new weapons and wargear.

The majority of the time, most various patterns and makes of wargear are identical on the scale of 40K. Ryza specializes in plasma weapons, but even their plasma weapons are the same Strength 7 AP 2 as all other plasma weapons. Ryza produces its own pattern of Leman Russ turrets, but these battle cannons are the same as all other battle cannons. Ryza, Stygies VIII and Gryphonne IV all produce their own patterns of Vanquisher cannons with different muzzle velocity, calibre and so on, but these once again result in the same Vanquisher cannon profile. Why should a chainsword of a particular material or a scourge that happens to be on fire or a storm bolter of a particular world have a different profile? We shouldn't even need to specify that hyper-penetrators come from Latheworlds - there are plenty of different ways to make penetrating rounds, and they all do the same thing regardless of whether they are a field modification or a special product. ¹


I imagine that nobody has realized that the burning brazier/brazier of holy fire is not points-worthy. It's a close combat weapon and a single use flamer for +10 points. Hm. A combi-flamer is +10 points, and it includes a boltgun. Hm. A power weapon is +10 points. Considering that a plain close combat weapon doesn't do anything unless paired with another close combat weapon of better quality, and that a model cannot shoot two different weapons in the same turn, and that your model is only allowed to carry two weapons, which of these is the least useful and should not be chosen?


There is a good reason that ordinary wargear tends to be the most commonly used wargear.
It knows what it's doing, and it's designed for only one thing. Therefore its entire points value is concentrated on only one thing, and it excels at this one thing. The more complicated a weapon or rule, the more cumbersome it becomes, and so all the more difficult to put into practice or effective use. What do all these new options exist to do? What do they give your Canoness or Palatine? Why the adamantine chainswords and the fiery scourge where twin pistols would effectively do the same thing for less points? Rending on Strength 4 isn't going to do much, considering the model only has some 3, 4, maybe 5 attacks. If the point is to kill infantry, the model should get a power weapon for the same price - every hit will ignore armour, instead of just hits that roll a 6 to wound. If the point is to kill armour, then the model should get an eviscerator, because Strength 6 + 2D6 armour penetration has better results than either Rending or krak grenades. In that case, twin inferno pistols should be available instead - at that range, a Sister has better chances of shooting with Ballistic Skill 5 than hitting a moving vehicle on 4+. And if the model has the Gunfighters rule, the twin pistols count as a power weapon too!
Unless new options are seriously functional and do something that is not already possible with other gear, they should be cleared out.


¹ You can guess that I hate Games Workshop, and particularly Matt Ward for creating the flamestorm cannon, angelus bolter, blood talons, the seismic hammer and all sorts of other things.

[Furyou Miko]

I think the +1 strength Chainswords is lifted from eldar Striking Scorpions, but you make a good point about it being uneccesary with Gunfighters. I think it might have been my fault, too, so I apologise again. ><

In the current codex, while technically taking two plasma pistols is illegal even for Seraphim Superiors, taking a Mastercrafted plasma pistol costs the same and does exactly the same job, PLUS it can be combined with a power weapon. If we just make Gunfighters standard for Seraphim and their descendants (Celestians and jump heroines), then we can add a unique flavor to the Sisters without losing out by denying them strength boosting items lifted from other codeces, or standard options like power weapons and poison.

[Sister Acacia]

I'm flipping out over the rampant proliferation of new weapons and wargear.

Except that's precisely what is needed. Hell, already there is an instance of stupid where half the things say "a CCW" in codices and others say "a chainsword" despite being the exact same thing (not giving chainswords their own special rule of some kind was a bad move on their part, but not one we can address in general), so we need less "refer to existing thing" and more "this is new". Heck, it adds flavour to make things a bit different - and to add specific names to things.

Why should a chainsword of a particular material or a scourge that happens to be on fire or a storm bolter of a particular world have a different profile?

The chainsword: for the same reason I'd rather be hit with a foam bat than a metal one. The scourge: here's an exercise. Get a reasonably heavy stick. Hit yourself with it as hard as you can. Don't worry, I'm not a doctor but I'm sure it'll be okay. Now set it on fire and do it again. Tell me which you enjoyed less. The Storm Bolter: Storm Bolters are worthless, I wouldn't give them to Heroines or Ophanim if they were free. Storm Bolters in general should be Assault 3, but that's not something we can do here due to other armies having them. What we CAN do is provide a "Storm Bolter worth taking" option with a special name.

And for what tiny amount it's worth, when I reference a "brand name", it's from Dark Heresy, so it has - to some minor extent - the GW nod of approval for at least existing. Even if Dark Heresy also tells us that Battle Sisters tend to not have Power Armour until they are practically Heroines.

I imagine that nobody has realized that the burning brazier/brazier of holy fire is not points-worthy. It's a close combat weapon and a single use flamer for +10 points.

True. It's only good if you wanted an extra CCW for an existing Power Weapon but also really want to set someone on fire, and even then, 10 points is probably too much. Rather than trash it, I think we just need to boost it to being worthy or knock the cost down. One or the other should do it.

What do all these new options exist to do? What do they give your Canoness or Palatine?

I'll admit, I quickly typed ideas from a stream of consciousness while enjoying heavy pain relief, so any individual thing could indeed be a terrible idea. But they do need options. People like kitting things out with choices like it was a D&D character (and if I had my way, it would be even more like that, with HQ units carving their way through entire armies unscathed, only for the entire battle to hinge on the outcome of HQ vs HQ single combat)

Why the adamantine chainswords and the fiery scourge where twin pistols would effectively do the same thing for less points?

An example of me throwing ideas down but not considering everything - specifically, the Gun Fighters. I'd be fine with letting the Palatine take Gabriel Seth's Chainsword, actually, and then it really DOES do something, hitting at S6 on regular Initiative, not Power but Rending.

You can guess that I hate Games Workshop, and particularly Matt Ward for creating the flamestorm cannon, angelus bolter, blood talons, the seismic hammer and all sorts of other things.

You're much too kind. I hate them for a great many things. However in that case, I can't see what the issue is - the only thing out of those that I don't like is the Flamestorm Cannon, and even then only because it's saying "Sisters get these three toys. Space Marines get everything. Oh, and we also get better versions of your toys". And this really is a problem with taking a view of removing options and trimming stuff down and not using special rules: it's as though you want even less things than the previous Codex, and without boosting them, in which case anyone actually playing it should just field "I forfeit this match" instead.

[- 7eAL -]

Why should a chainsword of a particular material or a scourge that happens to be on fire or a storm bolter of a particular world have a different profile?

The chainsword: for the same reason I'd rather be hit with a foam bat than a metal one. The scourge: here's an exercise. Get a reasonably heavy stick. Hit yourself with it as hard as you can. Don't worry, I'm not a doctor but I'm sure it'll be okay. Now set it on fire and do it again. Tell me which you enjoyed less. The Storm Bolter: Storm Bolters are worthless, I wouldn't give them to Heroines or Ophanim if they were free. Storm Bolters in general should be Assault 3, but that's not something we can do here due to other armies having them. What we CAN do is provide a "Storm Bolter worth taking" option with a special name.

And for what tiny amount it's worth, when I reference a "brand name", it's from Dark Heresy, so it has - to some minor extent - the GW nod of approval for at least existing. Even if Dark Heresy also tells us that Battle Sisters tend to not have Power Armour until they are practically Heroines.

There are a half dozen different kinds of bolt pistols in Dark Heresy. As far as 40K is concerned, they're all bolt pistols and share one profile regardless of quality, source or design.

All you've done is made a new weapon and called it a storm bolter of some kind - it could be anything else by any other name. You can make a new 'storm bolter' worth taking, that still doesn't make the regular storm bolter worth taking. End result? New weapon of questionable value, storm bolter still unattractive, your objective was not achieved.

I imagine that nobody has realized that the burning brazier/brazier of holy fire is not points-worthy. It's a close combat weapon and a single use flamer for +10 points.

True. It's only good if you wanted an extra CCW for an existing Power Weapon but also really want to set someone on fire, and even then, 10 points is probably too much. Rather than trash it, I think we just need to boost it to being worthy or knock the cost down. One or the other should do it.

Possible list:
- power weapon with single-use flamer (Saves a few points off a combi-flamer and power weapon, but makes that combination redundant. Hand flamers and Gunfighters would do almost the same thing.)
- flamer that ignores invulnerable saves
- single use heavy flamer that ignores invulnerable saves
- accessory or close combat weapon with Holy Promethium style effect on all attacks and wounds
- accessory or close combat weapon Holy Promethium style effect on all attacks, wounds and shooting
- ???

Why the adamantine chainswords and the fiery scourge where twin pistols would effectively do the same thing for less points?

An example of me throwing ideas down but not considering everything - specifically, the Gun Fighters. I'd be fine with letting the Palatine take Gabriel Seth's Chainsword, actually, and then it really DOES do something, hitting at S6 on regular Initiative, not Power but Rending.

Hm. This is interesting. An alternative eviscerator, perhaps suited to an anti-horde or anti-monster function. Where would this be useful? Against enemies that rely on an invulnerable save, because power weapons and eviscerators will not nullify those. Against enemies that have higher toughness, because power weapons have a hard time wounding them though eviscerators will do just as well. Against enemies that have Initiative equal to or less than the Heroine and could be killed before striking back, but more than Initiative 1 where they would be equal to eviscerators and where the eviscerator would have the advantage by being a power weapon. Basically, enemies with Toughness 5+ and Iniatiative 2-4, or enemies with equal invulnerable and armour saves.

Resulting combination means the weapon is effective against:

Tyranid Hive Guard broods
Tyranid Tyrant Guard broods (though you don't want to be fighting them to begin with)
Tyranid Carnifex broods
Tyranid Zoanthrope broods
any Ork infantry except:
- Models with a Painboy
- Models with 'eavy armour or mega armour
- Models on warbikes
any Daemons infantry except:
- Models with Iron Hide
Necron Wraiths (though you don't want to be fighting them to begin with)
Necron C'tan (though you don't want to be fighting them to begin with)
Guard Primaris Psykers
Guard Lord Commissars
Eldar Harlequins
Eldar Farseers and Warlocks
Tau Crisis Suit teams with shield generators and/or shield drones

Against everything else you want a power weapon or eviscerator to knock out the armour save, or its initiative is so high that eviscerators have the same effects.

[Sister Acacia]

All you've done is made a new weapon and called it a storm bolter of some kind - it could be anything else by any other name. You can make a new 'storm bolter' worth taking, that still doesn't make the regular storm bolter worth taking. End result? New weapon of questionable value, storm bolter still unattractive, your objective was not achieved.

Sure it was: there is a Storm Bolter (by name and the appearance of the model) that is worth taking. Storm Bolters across the board are still worthless, but one person gets a useful one if Assault weapon shooting is what they want to do.

Possible list:
- power weapon with single-use flamer (Saves a few points off a combi-flamer and power weapon, but makes that combination redundant. Hand flamers and Gunfighters would do almost the same thing.)
- flamer that ignores invulnerable saves
- single use heavy flamer that ignores invulnerable saves
- accessory or close combat weapon with Holy Promethium style effect on all attacks and wounds
- accessory or close combat weapon Holy Promethium style effect on all attacks, wounds and shooting
- ???

I like the options for "Flamer that ignores Invulnerable Saves" (although I thought there were many bitter tears shed about allowing anything ignore/alter/re-roll Invulnerable Saves, unless it's a Space Marine or Grey Space Marine, in which case it's okay) or for "CCW that applies a Holy Promethium effect to all HtH attacks (though that could be a bit weird - how would combat resolution be done, exactly?) and to Shooting".

Or maybe, given fire tends to spread - so much that my country is burned to the ground and rebuilt every year - some kind of "extra people get hit by your attacks" thing, basically improving their anti-horde ability by some significant amount.

Hm. This is interesting. An alternative eviscerator, perhaps suited to an anti-horde or anti-monster function.

Indeed. Now sure, unless also granting the "Whirlwind of Gore" ability with it (not recommended as he's a special character and this is something just for a non-special HQ choice), it still won't answer their other main HtH weakness, which is dealing with lots of models, but other weapon choices (see above, or that explosive hammer idea for Iron Maidens) could handle that.

[Sister Acacia]

Right, dusting this one off and going over it again. I mean, Erelim, Ophanim, Retributors and Support Bikes are more or less solid, with Initiates and some of the vehicles also just about ready.

PALATINE:

Palatine

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Palatine	5	5	3	3	3	5	3 (4)	10	3+/4+

Palatine {HQ}..........60 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry, Independent Character	1 Palatine	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Close Combat Weapon Bolt Pistol Rosarius	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful Faith Inspiring Combat Style	Rhino Repressor Immolator

The Palatines, though ranking below Canonesses within the Church, are still just as valued on the battlefield. Their specialty lies not in directing troops across the field, but in aiding a smaller unit and taking the fight to the enemy in close quarters. The Palatine tends to have some form of battle tactics that assist the unit she is with, and excels in the use of close combat weapons.

Transport: a transport option may be selected for the Palatine as long as she does not have a Jump Pack and the vehicle has enough space for her and her retinue.

Retinue: a Palatine may attach herself to any Adepta Sororitas unit (except for Repentias) to treat them as a retinue. If she has a Jump Pack and the squad does not, she cannot use it without breaking away. Likewise if she attaches to Seraphim but lacks a Jump Pack, they must restrict themselves to her movement or break away.

Wargear:

• She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or CCW with:
  • a Boltgun with Sarissa for free
  • a Burning Brazier for +10 points (requires a decision on what it does, such as "Poisoned (4+) CCW that is also a 1/game Flamer" or "1-handed 1/game Heavy Flamer w/ Holy Promethium")
  • a Hand Flamer for +10 points
  • a Power Weapon for +10 points
  • an Inferno Pistol for +15 points
  • a Plasma Pistol for +15 points
  • a Power Stake for +15 points
  • a Neuro Whip for +15 points
  • a Blazing Maul for +20 points
  • an Eviscerator for +25 points
  • a Blessed Weapon for +30 points
• She may replace both her Bolt Pistol and CCW with:
  • a pair of Blessed Chainswords for +15 points (2x S4 Rending CCW, can swap attacks for 1 S6 AP 1Rending Attack)
  • a pair of Neuro Whips for +20 points (only 1 +CCW is needed as-is. A pair should offer an additional small benefit. Thoughts?)
• She may also purchase:
  • Melta Bombs for +5 points
  • the Mantle of Ophelia for +15 points
  • an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher for +15 points
  • the Cloak of St. Aspira for +20 points
  • a Jump Pack for +20 points

Combat Style: Palatines often fight in the thick of things, and lead the battle at the forefront. To survive doing so, they generally develop a variety of skills. Select one of the following when purchasing the Palatine:

• Angel's Flight: requires a Jump Pack. The Palatine gains the Hit & Run Universal Special Rule, and rolls only 1d6 Scatter distance if deploying via Deep Strike.
• Dance of Death: requires a Boltgun with Sarissa. The Palatine benefits from Holy Hatred, as does the unit she is attached to.
• Murderous Onslaught: any time the Palatine charges an enemy, the entire unit she attacks (even those only in combat with a unit she is attached to) suffers a -1 penalty to Weapon Skill (minimum 1).
• Gun Fighters: any unit the Palatine is attached to may use Bolt Pistols as S 4 Close Combat weapons, Plasma Pistols as S 4 Power weapons, Inferno Pistols as S 5 Power Weapons and Hand Flamers as S 3 Close Combat Weapons that add +1 Attacks. The Palatine may use Bolt Pistols as S 4 Close Combat weapons, Plasma Pistols as S 6 Power Weapons, Inferno Pistols as S 7 Power Weapons and Hand Flamers as S 3 Close Combat Weapons that add +1d6 Attacks. If she is equipped with one Pistol, she may swap her CCW for a second pistol of the same kind and treat them as Twin-Linked for +10 points.
• Whirlwind Attack: requires any two weapons that cannot be used in the Shooting Phase. The Palatine, when charging, gains an extra Attack for every unsaved Wound she inflicts. Any unit she is attached to gains the same benefit, but only when using Sarissas. Extra attacks do not in turn trigger additional extra attacks.

[/color]

---

CANONESS:

Canoness

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Canoness	5	5	3	3	3	4	3	10	3+/4+

Canoness {HQ}..........60 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Infantry, Independent Character	1 Canoness	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Bolt Pistol Boltgun Rosarius	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful Faith Inspiring Blessings	Rhino Repressor Immolator

The Canoness is the spiritual leader of the Adepta Sororitas. She represents a great figurehead who not only excels in combat, but in directing her forces across the battlefield. She makes major decisions that can affect the entire Order, and certainly affect those in a given Mission, and inspires the forces around her with her faith and actions.

Transport: a transport option may be selected for the Canoness as long as she does not have a Jump Pack and the vehicle has enough space for her and her retinue.

Retinue: a Canoness may attach herself to any Adepta Sororitas unit (except for Repentias) to treat them as a retinue. If she has a Jump Pack and the squad does not, she cannot use it without breaking away. Likewise if she attaches to Seraphim but lacks a Jump Pack, they must restrict themselves to her movement or break away.

Wargear:

• She may replace her Bolt Pistol and/or Boltgun with:
  • a Close Combat Weapon for free
  • a Storm Bolter for +5 points
  • a Burning Brazier for +10 points
  • a Power Weapon for +10 points
  • a Hand Flamer for +10 points
  • a Combi-Weapon for +10 points
  • a Stake-Launcher for +10 points
  • an Inferno Pistol for +15 points
  • a Plasma Pistol for +15 points
  • an Eviscerator for +25 points
  • a Blessed Weapon for +30 points
• She may replace both Boltgun and Bolt Pistol with:
  • a Flamer for +5 points
  • a Melta Gun for +10 points
  • a Heavy Flamer for +15 points
  • a Heavy Bolter for +15 points
  • a Multi-Melta for +15 points
• She may also purchase:
  • Melta Bombs for +5 points
  • Defensive Grenades for +5 points
  • a Sarissa for her Boltgun for +5 points
  • the Rule of the Sororitas for +5 points
  • Inferno rounds for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapons) for +10 points
  • Tempest rounds for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapons) for +10 points
  • Latheworld Hyper-Penetrators for Boltguns (including Combi-Weapon) for +10 points
  • the Mantle of Ophelia for +15 points
  • Glorious Armour for +15 points
  • the Cloak of St. Aspira for +20 points
  • a Jump Pack for +20 points

Rule of the Sororitas: this book of lore and strategies assists the Canoness in deploying her forces. A single Adepta Sororitas unit of her choice may enter play from Reserves on the first turn of battle, without needing a Reserves roll. If they have the ability to Deep Strike, they may re-roll the Scatter (but must accept the second roll), if they have the ability to Outflank they may re-roll the die to determine which side they come from (but must accept the second roll), and if they have neither, they may enter play via Outflanking but do not get the re-roll.

Glorious Armour the armour worn by the Canoness is as much a relic as anything else carried into battle. Although it does not affect the protective qualities, she is considered too valuable to leave lying on the field if killed: if removed from play for any reason, leave the model in place. This represents her armoured corpse, and all benefits to other models and units still apply (such as proximity for Acts of Faith/Litanies of Faith). Additionally, on the round following her death, all friendly units with a model within 12" gain the Furious Charge and Rage USRs.

Blessings: the Canoness grants special benefits to her army, based on the wargear she selects.

• Jump Pack: The Canoness herself used to be a Seraphim, and she values their speed and morale boosting abilities. Seraphim may be taken as Elite choices as well as Fast Attack. If taken as an Elite choice, the entire unit may gain Holy Rage for +4 points per model
• Eviscerator: The Canoness was once a Mistress, or even a rare Repentia who managed to achieve salvation while living. Repentia squads may treat their Eviscerators and Neuro Whips as Mastercrafted.
• a Hand Flamer, Flamer or Heavy Flamer: the Canoness understands the true value of setting people on fire. All Flamers (including Braziers and Combi-Flamers) and Heavy Flamers used by Celestian squads gain the benefits of Holy Promethium.
• Inferno Pistol and Melta Bombs: the Canoness knows the weakness of human flesh against tanks, and has made sure to keep her troops equipped to deal with them. All Erolim Choirs may take Melta Bombs for +3 points per model.

Edited by Sister Acacia, 25 January 2011 - 01:48 PM.