Things that I would have done differently

[Valerian]

Alright, so I love the new Space Wolves Codex; overall I am extremely pleased with the bang-up job that Phil and the team did for us. I've been playing the Wolves since Rogue Trader, and this is the best version yet, in my humble opinion, of course.

 

However, that being said, there are still a few things that I'd have done differently had I been able to influence things.

 

1. Would have clarified with an explanation what Fenrisian Wolves taken as a wargear option do (I'd make it clear that they could be assigned failed wounds for a character, and removed as "ablative" models). Update: Addressed in FAQ; Fenrisian Wolves are not treated as a retinue, and are instead treated as a seperate unit in close combat.

 

2. Would have given a Saga of the Hunter the ability to join Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines. Update: Partially addressed in FAQ; Saga of the Hunter IC can join Wolf Scouts in an Outflank, and Wolf Scouts use the Behind Enemy Lines table when the Outflank, ergo...

 

3. Would have given Bjorn an option for a Drop Pod transport, like every other Dreadnought.

 

4. Would have allowed Venerable Dreadnoughts to be taken as either Headquarters or Elites choices, like in the last codex.

 

5. Would have given Wolf Lord and Battle Leader in TDA the ability to trade Power Weapon for a Frost Blade or Axe. Update: Addressed in Errata; Wolf Lord and Battle LEader in TDA can now select a Frost Weapon.

 

6. Would have included Sky Claws packs among the units that Wolf Guard can be assigned to act as Pack Leaders.

 

7. Would have clarified that a Wolf Guard assigned as a Pack Leader for Wolf Scouts is allowed to also operate Behind Enemy Lines. Update: Addressed in FAQ; this is allowed.

 

8. Would have ensured that it was clear that once assigned, as Wolf Guard Leader acts as a member of his new Pack in every way (just like a Sergeant or Upgrade Character would). Update: Addressed in FAQ; this is exactly the case.

 

9. The points cost to upgrade a Wolf Guard with either a Jump Pack or a Bike is the same as it is for a Wolf Lord; I would have made them much cheaper for a WGL (about 10 and 15 points, respectively).

 

10. Would allow one model in every type of Pack to have the Mark of the Wulfen upgrade option (right now Sky Claws can have one, but Swift Claws and Blood Claws cannot).

 

11. Would have allowed up to two Blood Claws, Swift Claws, or Sky Claws marines to replace their close combat weapon with either a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

12. Would have made Lukas the Trickster act as an Independent Character in close combat, but in all other ways is an Upgrade Character (i.e. his combat is treated as seperate and enemy units have to chose to either allocate attacks against him, or against the Blood Claws pack that he is with). Update: This is addressed in the FAQ. Lukas is treated as an Upgrade Charater in every way.

 

13. Even though it was probably a mistake in the Space Marine Codex to begin with, I would have maintained the transport capacity of 12 for Drop Pods and Phobos Land Raiders.

 

14. Would have ensured that the effect of taking a Thunderwolf Mount for an Independent Character was explained using an example, making it clear that the hero's Strength would become base 5 (making a Power Fist or Thunderhammer Strength 10), and Toughness base 5 (requiring a Strength 10 hit for Instant Death). Would have also allowed Rending effect with special close combat weapons to maintain consistency with Canis Wolfborn and the Thunderwolf Cavalry entries. Update: Addressed in FAQ; Toughness (and by extrapolation Strength also) is treated as base of 5.

 

15. Would have given all Long Fangs a Bolt Gun, in addition to their Bolt Pistol and CCW. Would have then made all Long Fangs apart from the Squad Leader replace their Bolt Guns with one of the given heavy weapon choices. This would have allowed the Squad Leader to have a Bolt Gun (which he currently cannot get, and would give the Fangs a little more power when Counter-Attacking enemy leakers).

 

15 is probably enough for now. So I ask my brother Wolves, what would you have done differently?

 

Valerian

[hilander]

You pretty much covered most of the stuff I am missing in this new dex...I can add these to the list:

 

1. I would have specified that Iron Priest follows the rules of an Independent Character.

 

2. I would have added another elite choice: Wulfen pack.

 

3. I would allow Scouts to be able to purchase camo-cloaks.

[nurglespuss]

1. Would have clarified with an explanation what Fenrisian Wolves taken as a wargear option do (I'd make it clear that they could be assigned failed wounds for a character, and removed as "ablative" models).

 

Yeah, but thats not the heroic image of the wolflord now is it?

 

2. Would have given a Saga of the Hunter the ability to join Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines.

 

But then you would have to limit it so it could not be taken by high level characters... 'cause that would be pretty chedderish...

 

3. Would have given Bjorn an option for a Drop Pod transport, like every other Dreadnought.

 

He's to valuable to drop pod! Its far too unreliable.

 

4. Would have allowed Venerable Dreadnoughts to be taken as either Headquarters or Elites choices, like in the last codex.

 

I agree.

 

5. Would have given Wolf Lord and Battle Leader in TDA the ability to trade Power Weapon for a Frost Blade or Axe.

 

Definately.

 

6. Would have included Sky Claws packs among the units that Wolf Guard can be assigned to act as Pack Leaders.

 

Disagree, its contrary to the fluff for the 'new' unit. Its a punishment, not an accomplishment.

 

7. Would have clarified that a Wolf Guard assigned as a Pack Leader for Wolf Scouts is allowed to also operate Behind Enemy Lines.

 

Disagree, I think this should opnly be the case if the WG could then take scout armour (that would look cool).

 

8. Would have ensured that it was clear that once assigned, as Wolf Guard Leader acts as a member of his new Pack in every way (just like a Sergeant or Upgrade Character would).

 

So long as he doesn't count toward minimum count for weapons options etc.

 

9. The points cost to upgrade a Wolf Guard with either a Jump Pack or a Bike is the same as it is for a Wolf Lord; I would have made them much cheaper for a WGL (about 10 and 15 points, respectively).

 

However, their wargear options are so good, its very justified, plus the sheer number of 'hero' level characters is enough to warrant this.

 

10. Would allow one model in every type of Pack to have the Mark of the Wulfen upgrade option (right now Sky Claws can have one, but Swift Claws and Blood Claws cannot).

 

Exactly, because its unusual to develop as a blood claw, those that do are put in the sky claws. How many wolfen do you want?

 

11. Would have allowed up to two Blood Claws, Swift Claws, or Sky Claws marines to replace their close combat weapon with either a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

Nope, too powerful, its why it was changed, they don't need it tp be effective.

 

12. Would have made Lukas the Trickster act as an Independent Character in close combat, but in all other ways is an Upgrade Character (i.e. his combat is treated as seperate and enemy units have to chose to either allocate attacks against him, or against the Blood Claws pack that he is with).

 

Can't have both, he either is or isn't.

 

13. Even though it was probably a mistake in the Space Marine Codex to begin with, I would have maintained the transport capacity of 12 for Drop Pods and Phobos Land Raiders.

 

Yeah, this is a bit confusing.

 

14. Would have ensured that the effect of taking a Thunderwolf Mount for an Independent Character was explained using an example, making it clear that the hero's Strength would become base 5 (making a Power Fist or Thunderhammer Strength 10), and Toughness base 5 (requiring a Strength 10 hit for Instant Death). Would have also allowed Rending effect with special close combat weapons to maintain consistency with Canis Wolfborn and the Thunderwolf Cavalry entries.

 

No making sure its St 4(5) etc. thats much more in keeping.

 

15. Would have given all Long Fangs a Bolt Gun, in addition to their Bolt Pistol and CCW. Would have then made all Long Fangs apart from the Squad Leader replace their Bolt Guns with one of the given heavy weapon choices. This would have allowed the Squad Leader to have a Bolt Gun (which he currently cannot get, and would give the Fangs a little more power when Counter-Attacking enemy leakers).

 

I agree about the squad leader having a boltgun, but the other guys don't need it, and lets face it, couldn't carry it either.

[Lord Howland Greywolf]

Wolf preists to have the option of having power fists. I loved that option and every chaplin I have modled is like that.

[whitewolfmxc]

wolf priest having wolf claws and wolves as wargear

[Valerian]

1. Would have clarified with an explanation what Fenrisian Wolves taken as a wargear option do (I'd make it clear that they could be assigned failed wounds for a character, and removed as "ablative" models).

 

Yeah, but thats not the heroic image of the wolflord now is it?

 

Yes, but that is really the only reason to take them, and how they were used in the old codex, I believe.

 

2. Would have given a Saga of the Hunter the ability to join Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines.

 

But then you would have to limit it so it could not be taken by high level characters... 'cause that would be pretty chedderish...

 

It is already limited to only Wolf Priests and Battle Leaders which I believe is appropriate.

 

3. Would have given Bjorn an option for a Drop Pod transport, like every other Dreadnought.

 

He's to valuable to drop pod! Its far too unreliable.

 

With Inertial Guidance Systems the Drop Pod is the most reliable way to deploy to the battlefield. Also, for game play, it would seriously help improve the usefulness of the 270 point model.

 

4. Would have allowed Venerable Dreadnoughts to be taken as either Headquarters or Elites choices, like in the last codex.

 

I agree.

 

5. Would have given Wolf Lord and Battle Leader in TDA the ability to trade Power Weapon for a Frost Blade or Axe.

 

Definately.

 

6. Would have included Sky Claws packs among the units that Wolf Guard can be assigned to act as Pack Leaders.

 

Disagree, its contrary to the fluff for the 'new' unit. Its a punishment, not an accomplishment.

 

They still could use the leadership and guidance, as well as the supervision that a Wolf Guard Leader would provide. Additionally, they can be accompanied by ICs with Jump Packs, so they ought to have the option to be accompanied by Wolf Guard. No big deal that we disagree on this, however, that is to be expected on some points.

 

7. Would have clarified that a Wolf Guard assigned as a Pack Leader for Wolf Scouts is allowed to also operate Behind Enemy Lines.

 

Disagree, I think this should opnly be the case if the WG could then take scout armour (that would look cool).

 

We still disagree then. Wolf Guard Leaders could accompany the Wolf Scouts in the old codex and operate Behind Enemy Lines, so I see no reason to remove the option now.

 

8. Would have ensured that it was clear that once assigned, as Wolf Guard Leader acts as a member of his new Pack in every way (just like a Sergeant or Upgrade Character would).

 

So long as he doesn't count toward minimum count for weapons options etc.

 

Agree; still have to have the actual full pack of Hunters or Claws to get the extra benefits. Wolf Guard Leader is still assigned after chosing unit options, but before deployment.

 

9. The points cost to upgrade a Wolf Guard with either a Jump Pack or a Bike is the same as it is for a Wolf Lord; I would have made them much cheaper for a WGL (about 10 and 15 points, respectively).

 

However, their wargear options are so good, its very justified, plus the sheer number of 'hero' level characters is enough to warrant this.

 

Disagree. The price is way too high for a Veteran-level character. Hero-level, sure, as the additional mobility has a greater potential impact, but it's too much for what is essentially a Sergeant for the unit.

 

10. Would allow one model in every type of Pack to have the Mark of the Wulfen upgrade option (right now Sky Claws can have one, but Swift Claws and Blood Claws cannot).

 

Exactly, because its unusual to develop as a blood claw, those that do are put in the sky claws. How many wolfen do you want?

 

Just want consistency.

 

11. Would have allowed up to two Blood Claws, Swift Claws, or Sky Claws marines to replace their close combat weapon with either a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

Nope, too powerful, its why it was changed, they don't need it tp be effective.

 

Disagree; two special close combat weapons in a unit does not make it too powerful. It does, however, help, and makes those units more viable as assault units, and makes them a reasonable alternative to just taking more Grey Hunter Packs.

 

12. Would have made Lukas the Trickster act as an Independent Character in close combat, but in all other ways is an Upgrade Character (i.e. his combat is treated as seperate and enemy units have to chose to either allocate attacks against him, or against the Blood Claws pack that he is with).

 

Can't have both, he either is or isn't.

 

Sure you can have it both ways. He's an upgrade character who is treated as an IC for combat purposes. This makes his Pelt of the Doppelgangrel wargear actually have an in-game effect before his entire Blood Claw pack is all destroyed but him. I wouldn't make him an IC, as he ought to have to stick with the Blood Claw Pack; he shouldn't be allowed to wonder over and join some other unit, which he would get to if he were fully an IC. Easy fix is to treat him as an exception to the norm.

 

13. Even though it was probably a mistake in the Space Marine Codex to begin with, I would have maintained the transport capacity of 12 for Drop Pods and Phobos Land Raiders.

 

Yeah, this is a bit confusing.

 

14. Would have ensured that the effect of taking a Thunderwolf Mount for an Independent Character was explained using an example, making it clear that the hero's Strength would become base 5 (making a Power Fist or Thunderhammer Strength 10), and Toughness base 5 (requiring a Strength 10 hit for Instant Death). Would have also allowed Rending effect with special close combat weapons to maintain consistency with Canis Wolfborn and the Thunderwolf Cavalry entries.

 

No making sure its St 4(5) etc. thats much more in keeping.

 

We disagree.

 

15. Would have given all Long Fangs a Bolt Gun, in addition to their Bolt Pistol and CCW. Would have then made all Long Fangs apart from the Squad Leader replace their Bolt Guns with one of the given heavy weapon choices. This would have allowed the Squad Leader to have a Bolt Gun (which he currently cannot get, and would give the Fangs a little more power when Counter-Attacking enemy leakers).

 

I agree about the squad leader having a boltgun, but the other guys don't need it, and lets face it, couldn't carry it either.

 

 

The other guys wouldn't really have a Bolt Gun; they would get it at first only notionally, as they have to trade it in and get a heavy weapon. With my system they would have a heavy weapon, their CCW, and a holstered Bolt Pistol that they would pull out when the enemy got close and they had to defend themselves.

 

We disagree on several of these, but I appreciate the input.

 

V

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Firstly I will say I love Space Wolves and am very glad they are not grey Ultramarines BUT

 

I am putting on my Advocates Meanie Hat ;) *boo-hiss, he's gonna be mean* :down:

 

Besides the clarification things, I think C:SW is a good book and a good army list.

 

Maybe you could have the unit tweaks you have mentioned but the grunts of SW are VERY cheap and minis in power armour are the real winners of a list.

 

BT Initiates are better than GHs are the charge, but GH are much better at receiving a charge. AND can shoot the BTs all the way in. AND have two special weapons (which is a better match for the unit & for cheap) AND carry a Wolf Standard AND have MotW AND can have a WG leader.

 

People don't like fighting BT and SW are better.

 

LF Heavy weapons are much cheaper than Devs and can split fire.

WS are much better than Scouts for the same price (though ELITE v TROOP argument is valid. However the unit is much better)

TWC is incomparable, who gets fast tough assault warriors?

Fenris Wolves besides cheap cover they also keep up with the TWC.

LW are mini Independent Characters.

Who else would get to have a Dread HQ? and why?

AND you want to make them more powerful AND said nothing about how cheap they are....

 

:) *Takes Advocates Meanie Hat off* :)

 

I think Wolves have a sweet deal. It is not what older Wolves are used to but given a while I think you'll love it. I would love to have 'this' Phil Kelly right C:BT

 

EDIT: Maybe you could have a best of 5 game. 3rd ed versus 5th ed using 5th ed rules... mano y mano.... lupo y lupo and see how they stack up?

[Valerian]

Firstly I will say I love Space Wolves and am very glad they are not grey Ultramarines BUT

 

I am putting on my Advocates Meanie Hat ;) *boo-hiss, he's gonna be mean* :down:

 

.........

 

:) *Takes Advocates Meanie Hat off* :)

 

I'm not really sure what your point was with all of that. Were you just trying to demonstrate that Space Wolves are better than Black Templars? If that was the case, you shouldn't have bothered...everybody in The Fang knows that.

 

I think Wolves have a sweet deal. It is not what older Wolves are used to but given a while I think you'll love it. I would love to have 'this' Phil Kelly right C:BT

 

I already said in the subtitle of this thread, and in my introduction that I do love this new codex. The point of my list isn't/wasn't to make the army more powerful (although admittedly a few of the things I said I would do might have resulted in that); the point of my list was to point out the things I would have done differently.

 

Most of the points in my list fell into one of three categories: 1) resolving issues that simply needed better clarification, e.g. the issues that are currently being debated over and over on the boards that could have been avoided with better wording and/or examples; 2) fixing some things that were inconsistent, and 3) changing a few things that don't make sense to me.

 

V

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I going to own my mistake and tell you I didn't read your intro blurb :D . Sorry :blush: . (I think that is how arguments get started BTW) I picked it up after that part. :blush:

 

I'm not really sure what your point was with all of that. Were you just trying to demonstrate that Space Wolves are better than Black Templars? If that was the case, you shouldn't have bothered...everybody in The Fang knows that.

 

I read some SW dudes signature (maybe he was Italian IIrc) and it went a little like this: No matter how hard BT try, SW will always be better. SLAM! But I do agree. If BTs score an B+ then SW get an A. I don't know why it is that way but GW just plain old loves SW. :wub:

 

Most of the points in my list fell into one of three categories: 1) resolving issues that simply needed better clarification, e.g. the issues that are currently being debated over and over on the boards that could have been avoided with better wording and/or examples; 2) fixing some things that were inconsistent, and 3) changing a few things that don't make sense to me.

 

I certainly agree with you on the clarifications. Pages of for and against. For a few sentences more angst would be averted (until we find the next one ;) )

 

I guess the short of what I was saying was SW shoot as well as UM for cheaper and are not much different from BT in melee. So I believe anymore power weapons just makes them super-marines.... but they are already the best marines and are cheap too.

Something I like is that SW can have tooled up WG leaders to pimp out a squad but you really pay the points for it. In a similar vein to have extra weapons for SW they need to be billed for it. That is my take on it. We can disagree AND still be friends ;)

[Night Runner]

I agree with more or less with what Valerian has said. All good valid points.

 

I would like to stress though:

 

1. BC packs should have had the option of having two SCC rather than two special weapons - to diversify them a bit more from the GH packs. Also GW should have allowed the BC packs to have at leasts two melta bomb options.

 

2. The points for certain wargear items are just way too expensive for WG, as Valerian has justly commented on. Bikes and jump packs are just too expensive and TH+SS and 2WC with PA are more, or as expensive as, their termie counterparts. This is rather silly IMO.

 

3. Our termies with TH+SS are 23pts more expensive than the vanilla marines. Now I know we have a lot of advantages, but I think this is just over the top. It was probably a GW ploy to steer us into using WC without negating the option in order to keep with their version of what makes up a SW army, but to me it is just excessive.

 

4. Would have given the Wolf and Rune priests the option of at least one Wolf Claw or powerfist.

 

5. Although I understand the reason fluff-wise not to give SkyC a WG leader, I find this redundunt since they can still be led by more presitigious leaders as ICs. So what is really the point in denying them? Once again, it is a matter of fluff. They are steering us into using leaderless SkyC without negating the option altogether in order to keep with their version of what makes up a SW army.

 

6. No independent rules for a Chapter or Great Company Banner.

[DV8]

3. Would have given Bjorn an option for a Drop Pod transport, like every other Dreadnought.

 

This I do not agree with. Bjorn is their most ancient of dreadnoughts, only woken up once every century to recount the Sagas and to ensure that the history of the Chapter is maintained. He is rarely woken up for war, and even then it's in the defense of the Fang. I think taking Bjorn is supposedly to be representative of him marching out in the defense of Fenris, not taking him off planet on an offensive (he's too valuable to lose).

 

6. Would have included Sky Claws packs among the units that Wolf Guard can be assigned to act as Pack Leaders.

 

I'm on the fence about this one. On the one hand, I do want the consistency of being able to assign WG to Skyclaws, but on the other hand, no self-respecting Space Wolf would go flying through the air like some crazed loon.

 

11. Would have allowed up to two Blood Claws, Swift Claws, or Sky Claws marines to replace their close combat weapon with either a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

I think they're fine as is.

 

12. Would have made Lukas the Trickster act as an Independent Character in close combat, but in all other ways is an Upgrade Character (i.e. his combat is treated as seperate and enemy units have to chose to either allocate attacks against him, or against the Blood Claws pack that he is with).

 

Yea as is he's the silliest most useless character I've seen yet, since you have to sacrifice a squad to make work.

 

13. Even though it was probably a mistake in the Space Marine Codex to begin with, I would have maintained the transport capacity of 12 for Drop Pods and Phobos Land Raiders.

 

This I don't agree with. It was clearly an oversight in the Space Marine Codex, why continue making the same mistake?

Valerian

 

I'm in agreement with everything else.

 

I would have also:

 

1. Clarified a few of the Psychic Powers (Jaws of the World Wolf, in particular) insofar as the exact sequence in which they are played out.

 

2. Dropped Blood Claws to 14 points each.

 

 

DV8

[Sharpsilver]

Would love to have kept the Leman Russ Exterminator. It may seem out of place for those externally looking at Space Wolves, but for the Fluff-lovers it's a great tank and bears the name of Russ!, it's one of those few tanks that fits well with the wolves, even as different tech.

[Rizara]

Ok...Just gonna comment about the long fangs. I agree to several of the ideas you listed, but there is some argument that the long fangs don't need a boltgun. First off...Long fangs were previous grey hunters. So....the Pack leader should have a boltgun at least, and the others basically traded there bolter in for the heavy weapons. Also wolves are all about assault. Otherwise why would everyone in the army have the counter attack rule. That being the case, long fangs should have the heavy weapon, a bolt pistol and a CCW. The pistol and CCW are a trademark weapon that every wolf has used from there first days as a pup. Blood claws started with it, grey hunters get to keep theres too, so why not long fangs. You also say its too much, and i disagree since regular old Vanilla marine Devestators get there heavy weapon and a pistol too. Its a way of defending them selves in combat, also regular devestators can choose to move, shoot there pistols and then assault you if they wanted, so why wouldnt long fangs who realize that combat is going to be an option not pull out a pistol, move forward, fire it and then assault into combat. Personally they would be the ones to do it more so than a well trained Devestator squad from any other chapter.

 

There are some other valid points i agree with. The frost axe/blade on TDA for our heros would be nice, since wolf guard can take it. The Venerable dreads as hq options would also be good, even if it was just limited to only one venerable as an hq choice.

 

Also i would like to note, that wolf guard should also be allowed an option for taking an assault weapon for every 5 in addition to the heavy in terminator opption they get. It would be nice to see a full 10 strong unit of wolfguard in power armor, with 2 assault weapons, or even a heavy flamer in power armor. As much as i like taking the heavy it would be nice to have an option for special weapon upgrade too for the power armored wolf guard. It would also make since so you could bother with the Jumppack option for wolf guard then since no wolf guard can join the Jump pack Using Skyclaws.

[maligncomedy]

14. Would have ensured that the effect of taking a Thunderwolf Mount for an Independent Character was explained using an example, making it clear that the hero's Strength would become base 5 (making a Power Fist or Thunderhammer Strength 10), and Toughness base 5 (requiring a Strength 10 hit for Instant Death). Would have also allowed Rending effect with special close combat weapons to maintain consistency with Canis Wolfborn and the Thunderwolf Cavalry entries.

 

No making sure its St 4(5) etc. thats much more in keeping.

 

We disagree.

 

Are they Seriously S&T 4(5) right now? If so, then if I wanted a T5, I'd just take a damn Bike. To my interpretation, Thunderwolves are just like the Juggernauts of Khorne in the Daemon Codex. Last I checked it did modify the base statline. Unless I remember wrong.

[DV8]

14. Would have ensured that the effect of taking a Thunderwolf Mount for an Independent Character was explained using an example, making it clear that the hero's Strength would become base 5 (making a Power Fist or Thunderhammer Strength 10), and Toughness base 5 (requiring a Strength 10 hit for Instant Death). Would have also allowed Rending effect with special close combat weapons to maintain consistency with Canis Wolfborn and the Thunderwolf Cavalry entries.

 

No making sure its St 4(5) etc. thats much more in keeping.

 

We disagree.

 

Are they Seriously S&T 4(5) right now? If so, then if I wanted a T5, I'd just take a damn Bike. To my interpretation, Thunderwolves are just like the Juggernauts of Khorne in the Daemon Codex. Last I checked it did modify the base statline. Unless I remember wrong.

 

You'd still only be T 4(5) with a Space Marine Bike.

 

The problem with Thunderwolf mounts is that the increase to the statline is implied. It's spelt out in the Daemon Codex, that a Herald on Juggernaut has the following upgraded stats, and it goes on to list a new statline should a Herald be mounted on a Juggernaut.

 

Not so for the Thunderwolf.

 

 

DV8

[maligncomedy]

14. Would have ensured that the effect of taking a Thunderwolf Mount for an Independent Character was explained using an example, making it clear that the hero's Strength would become base 5 (making a Power Fist or Thunderhammer Strength 10), and Toughness base 5 (requiring a Strength 10 hit for Instant Death). Would have also allowed Rending effect with special close combat weapons to maintain consistency with Canis Wolfborn and the Thunderwolf Cavalry entries.

 

No making sure its St 4(5) etc. thats much more in keeping.

 

We disagree.

 

Are they Seriously S&T 4(5) right now? If so, then if I wanted a T5, I'd just take a damn Bike. To my interpretation, Thunderwolves are just like the Juggernauts of Khorne in the Daemon Codex. Last I checked it did modify the base statline. Unless I remember wrong.

 

You'd still only be T 4(5) with a Space Marine Bike.

 

The problem with Thunderwolf mounts is that the increase to the statline is implied. It's spelt out in the Daemon Codex, that a Herald on Juggernaut has the following upgraded stats, and it goes on to list a new statline should a Herald be mounted on a Juggernaut.

 

Not so for the Thunderwolf.

 

 

DV8

 

Lol. I meant if the T 4(5) was what a Thunderwolf is. It would be cheaper to give WG a bike. Or just use Swift Claws. And that includes the upgrades. Honestly, I hope when they faq this, that it becomes like the Juggernaut.

[Marek Grimfang]

The codex is different as it should be.

 

There are some things I won't use and some fluff I think is hokey, for the life of me, a marine riding a wolf. I digress.

 

 

My main bone of contention that has me upset sideways are the Blood Claws.

 

This I feel we are vastly ripped off.

 

I feel so constrcited now from a codex that is supposed to allow variation.

 

TO me BC's are substandard marines. Reduced WS/BS, but the addition of an extra attack. That is not levelling.

 

They have the same stats as a Codex Marine Scout, but with power armour and some other goodies.

 

 

So i feel they are sort of a waste of my time and a huge restriction on me.

 

I loose a valuable close combat choice, and also I see the BC Bikes as a loss as well.

 

I would rather use a tooled up foot slogging Codex Marine Assault Squad.

 

If it wasn't for our Grey Hunters, Id be using another book. Still might.

[Valerian]

Thanks for the input to the thread guys; it seems as if most of us agree that it is a great codex, but could have used a few little tweaks to make it perfect (okay, maybe not perfect, but at least a little better.

 

A few comments to respond to DV8.

 

3. Would have given Bjorn an option for a Drop Pod transport, like every other Dreadnought.

 

This I do not agree with. Bjorn is their most ancient of dreadnoughts, only woken up once every century to recount the Sagas and to ensure that the history of the Chapter is maintained. He is rarely woken up for war, and even then it's in the defense of the Fang. I think taking Bjorn is supposedly to be representative of him marching out in the defense of Fenris, not taking him off planet on an offensive (he's too valuable to lose).

 

I concur wholeheartedly about your fluff assessment. However, that being said, we still have to consider how he plays on the tabletop. As a 270 point unit, he really could use the deployment option of a Drop Pod to get good use out of him in an army, to make the most out of his considerable capabilities. As it stands, the only way to get him to the enemy is to Run him, which sacrifices his ranged weapons that you are paying a premium for. If you chose not to run and shoot instead, then he'll likely never get into close combat, sacrificing his considerable assault capability, that you are also paying a premium for. I understand that the game is all about choices, and sometimes sacrifices must be made, but for the points you pay for him, a Drop Pod is necessary to make it worthwhile to include him in a take on all-comers type of list.

 

6. Would have included Sky Claws packs among the units that Wolf Guard can be assigned to act as Pack Leaders.

 

I'm on the fence about this one. On the one hand, I do want the consistency of being able to assign WG to Skyclaws, but on the other hand, no self-respecting Space Wolf would go flying through the air like some crazed loon.

 

Yes, but if any Hero (Independent Character) can still strap on a Jump Pack, join the Sky Claws, and going bounding along the battlefield, then surely a Wolf Guard ought to be able to as well. In the end, it isn't a huge deal as you can get more out of them with either a Wolf Priest or Battle Leader attached anyway, but it would be better (to me anyway) to at least have the option of a Wolf Guard Leader like almost every other unit in the list (TWC don't need a WGL).

 

11. Would have allowed up to two Blood Claws, Swift Claws, or Sky Claws marines to replace their close combat weapon with either a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

I think they're fine as is.

 

They are, but a second Special Close Combat Weapon would help set them apart from Grey Hunters. Even you have noted that their points are just a tad too high. To make it fair, I would even swap the entry with the Special Weapon entry - giving them just one of those (Flamer, Melta Gun, etc.), while allowing a second SCCW (Power Fist or Power Weapon) to be taken if the unit is at maximum size. I don't think folks would have a huge problem with that, as it forces you to take more models in the pack than you otherwise might want to, just to get access to the second SCCW.

 

12. Would have made Lukas the Trickster act as an Independent Character in close combat, but in all other ways is an Upgrade Character (i.e. his combat is treated as seperate and enemy units have to chose to either allocate attacks against him, or against the Blood Claws pack that he is with).

 

Yea as is he's the silliest most useless character I've seen yet, since you have to sacrifice a squad to make work.

 

Yep, somebody screwed up his entry, I think, in the editing process.

 

13. Even though it was probably a mistake in the Space Marine Codex to begin with, I would have maintained the transport capacity of 12 for Drop Pods and Phobos Land Raiders.

 

This I don't agree with. It was clearly an oversight in the Space Marine Codex, why continue making the same mistake?

 

 

Well, if they made it a standard 12 from now on, then it would be a change and not a mistake, right? I just think that it is a good idea for Space Marine transports to have enough room for a leader to join a full unit and ride into battle. This one isn't a huge deal, however, and I could go either way. Again, it is just something I would have probably allowed if I were writing the Codex.

 

 

Valerian

 

I'm in agreement with everything else.

 

I would have also:

 

1. Clarified a few of the Psychic Powers (Jaws of the World Wolf, in particular) insofar as the exact sequence in which they are played out.

 

Better explanations with examples and pictures would be helpful with any of the tricky stuff. I imagine, however, when writing it, that they never thought that any of the things that have been in contention here on the board were all that complicated.

 

2. Dropped Blood Claws to 14 points each.

 

I like the fact that Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Wolf Scouts, and Long Fangs are all base 15 points for cost. To make the Blood Claws a little more worth that, however, I would throw in the second SCCW option as discussed above.

 

DV8

 

Thanks again for your input to the thread. Once it goes on a little longer, I'll probably have enough good ideas from you guys to develop a decent set of House Rules.

 

V

[LoneSniperSG]

Alright, so I love the new Space Wolves Codex; overall I am extremely pleased with the bang-up job that Phil and the team did for us. I've been playing the Wolves since Rogue Trader, and this is the best version yet, in my humble opinion, of course.

 

However, that being said, there are still a few things that I'd have done differently had I been able to influence things.

 

1. Would have clarified with an explanation what Fenrisian Wolves taken as a wargear option do (I'd make it clear that they could be assigned failed wounds for a character, and removed as "ablative" models).

They did.

 

2. Would have given a Saga of the Hunter the ability to join Wolf Scouts and operate Behind Enemy Lines.

 

Most of the units that can take a saga are IC's and can join anyone except a Lone Wolf.

3. Would have given Bjorn an option for a Drop Pod transport, like every other Dreadnought.

Uhm. Big no-no. You're not thinking here. Would you really take the oldest and most venerable warrior in the galaxy, one who actually knew and fought by your primarch and stick him in a metal shell to fall screaming and burning through the atmosphere? Hell no.

4. Would have allowed Venerable Dreadnoughts to be taken as either Headquarters or Elites choices, like in the last codex.

Bjorn the Fell-Handed.

5. Would have given Wolf Lord and Battle Leader in TDA the ability to trade Power Weapon for a Frost Blade or Axe.

 

6. Would have included Sky Claws packs among the units that Wolf Guard can be assigned to act as Pack Leaders.

Wolf Guard know better than to fly around the battlefield.

10. Would allow one model in every type of Pack to have the Mark of the Wulfen upgrade option (right now Sky Claws can have one, but Swift Claws and Blood Claws cannot).

Why give MOTW to the regular troops instead of adding it to someone's already potent stats?

11. Would have allowed up to two Blood Claws, Swift Claws, or Sky Claws marines to replace their close combat weapon with either a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

Overkill.

12. Would have made Lukas the Trickster act as an Independent Character in close combat, but in all other ways is an Upgrade Character (i.e. his combat is treated as seperate and enemy units have to chose to either allocate attacks against him, or against the Blood Claws pack that he is with).

The only point I agree with.

13. Even though it was probably a mistake in the Space Marine Codex to begin with, I would have maintained the transport capacity of 12 for Drop Pods and Phobos Land Raiders.

That isn't even feasible. Although it may be an error in C:SM, C:Daemonhunters and C:CSM has the same capacity in the Land Raider.

[Growler67]

3. Would have given Bjorn an option for a Drop Pod transport, like every other Dreadnought.

 

This I do not agree with. Bjorn is their most ancient of dreadnoughts, only woken up once every century to recount the Sagas and to ensure that the history of the Chapter is maintained. He is rarely woken up for war, and even then it's in the defense of the Fang. I think taking Bjorn is supposedly to be representative of him marching out in the defense of Fenris, not taking him off planet on an offensive (he's too valuable to lose).

 

I concur wholeheartedly about your fluff assessment. However, that being said, we still have to consider how he plays on the tabletop. As a 270 point unit, he really could use the deployment option of a Drop Pod to get good use out of him in an army, to make the most out of his considerable capabilities. As it stands, the only way to get him to the enemy is to Run him, which sacrifices his ranged weapons that you are paying a premium for. If you chose not to run and shoot instead, then he'll likely never get into close combat, sacrificing his considerable assault capability, that you are also paying a premium for. I understand that the game is all about choices, and sometimes sacrifices must be made, but for the points you pay for him, a Drop Pod is necessary to make it worthwhile to include him in a take on all-comers type of list.

 

One could park Bjorn in proximity to a Long Fang unit to exploit the firepower (with different firing angles) and provide CC support to them should the need materialize. Even if he gets taken out by enemy blast templates and becomes and objective, he would be easier to retake/converge upon than if he were in the middle of the field. If he is deployed on the line and marches forward (like any other high value magnet) effective use of meat shield and terrain covers should be used by the player. He is unique in many ways and in keeping him so he shouldn't be allowed the standard drop option available to every/any other dread. That would make him "run of the mill". Terrain/map chosen would be critical in determining whether or not he should be taken and what tactics would take most advantage of his atributes..............as it would/should for any unit choice.

 

11. Would have allowed up to two Blood Claws, Swift Claws, or Sky Claws marines to replace their close combat weapon with either a Power Weapon or Power Fist.

 

I think they're fine as is.

 

They are, but a second Special Close Combat Weapon would help set them apart from Grey Hunters. Even you have noted that their points are just a tad too high. To make it fair, I would even swap the entry with the Special Weapon entry - giving them just one of those (Flamer, Melta Gun, etc.), while allowing a second SCCW (Power Fist or Power Weapon) to be taken if the unit is at maximum size. I don't think folks would have a huge problem with that, as it forces you to take more models in the pack than you otherwise might want to, just to get access to the second SCCW.

 

Blood Claws in my mind are inexperienced and still learning the "fog of battle". In keeping with that, they shouldn't have access to ALL the toys and such like a more seasoned Gery Hunter might/would. If everybody got the same access to everything, there would be no real distiguishable attributes because everyone would be basically the same. Then you would have the very real potential for some players to just buy Blood Claws for cheaper and spend points elsewhere thus unbalancing the overall/indended context of the Codex. You'd never see any Grey Hunters because they would only be slightly better in stat line when cheaper units could be purchased and those points spread to other things.

 

Thanks again for your input to the thread. Once it goes on a little longer, I'll probably have enough good ideas from you guys to develop a decent set of House Rules.

 

V

 

To impliment all "you would've done different" would make things potentially unbalanced. For all the plusses you advocate, what are the drawbacks? There have to be some cons to any pros being advocated. That is how things end up balanced and fair. No one gets too overpowering an army or individual units and though every Army in the GW universe has it's "inherant style" (shooty vs melee) there are the balancing efforts that allow for units that fill the less prominent features. Furthermore, incorporating all your implimentations would make the Space Wolves too well rounded allowing them to cover all the bases without any shortcomings. That doesn't fit into the realm of balance at all in my view. But hey, what do I know? I don't ever nor do I have any inclination to play in any tournaments. Just sayin'.

[LoneSniperSG]

To impliment all "you would've done different" would make things potentially unbalanced. For all the plusses you advocate, what are the drawbacks? There have to be some cons to any pros being advocated. That is how things end up balanced and fair. No one gets too overpowering an army or individual units and though every Army in the GW universe has it's "inherant style" (shooty vs melee) there are the balancing efforts that allow for units that fill the less prominent features. Furthermore, incorporating all your implimentations would make the Space Wolves too well rounded allowing them to cover all the bases without any shortcomings. That doesn't fit into the realm of balance at all in my view. But hey, what do I know? I don't ever nor do I have any inclination to play in any tournaments. Just sayin'.

 

Hm.. based on what I observed from Valerian's posts about other things, he seems to be more about the statistics of everything than the general Space Wolfy-ness. His issue with Bjorn not getting a drop pod kinda conveys that. If any other Space Marine chapter had a Dreadnought like Bjorn, they wouldn't deploy him in the most dangerous method possible.

 

This isn't a bash, just an observation. The world needs its mathematicians.

[Grey Mage]

Im sorry, but uh... yeah.

 

IF the DP capacity and LR capacity was, as were being told, an error.

 

WHY the hell hasnt it been fixed in over a year? They printed an erata... one would think that would be on the list of "by the way"s.

[LoneSniperSG]

Im sorry, but uh... yeah.

 

IF the DP capacity and LR capacity was, as were being told, an error.

 

WHY the hell hasnt it been fixed in over a year? They printed an erata... one would think that would be on the list of "by the way"s.

 

Dunno Grey. Maybe GW is trying to keep the guise of "We don't screw up".

 

But I ask you what you think about it when you have Grey Knights with 10-man land Raiders and Space Wolves with 10-man Land Raiders.

[Grey Mage]

Im sorry, but uh... yeah.

 

IF the DP capacity and LR capacity was, as were being told, an error.

 

WHY the hell hasnt it been fixed in over a year? They printed an erata... one would think that would be on the list of "by the way"s.

 

Dunno Grey. Maybe GW is trying to keep the guise of "We don't screw up".

 

But I ask you what you think about it when you have Grey Knights with 10-man land Raiders and Space Wolves with 10-man Land Raiders.

And Grey Knights with LRCs that can shoot everything at 12"?

 

Theres alot of little things like that in the game- But atleast with most of the moves theyve said "we were moving in a different direction."

 

Not "oh, we screwed up... but only you have to deal with it, ok?". Sorry, thats crap.

 

But I suppose well see what it says in C:BA- if they go back up to 12 and say "oh, well SWs was kind of a mistake too."

 

No, they should have either come out and said "its a balance issue" or just increased the points cost to 45pts for a DP and kept it at 12.

[Valerian]

To impliment all "you would've done different" would make things potentially unbalanced. For all the plusses you advocate, what are the drawbacks? There have to be some cons to any pros being advocated. That is how things end up balanced and fair. No one gets too overpowering an army or individual units and though every Army in the GW universe has it's "inherant style" (shooty vs melee) there are the balancing efforts that allow for units that fill the less prominent features. Furthermore, incorporating all your implimentations would make the Space Wolves too well rounded allowing them to cover all the bases without any shortcomings. That doesn't fit into the realm of balance at all in my view. But hey, what do I know? I don't ever nor do I have any inclination to play in any tournaments. Just sayin'.

 

Hm.. based on what I observed from Valerian's posts about other things, he seems to be more about the statistics of everything than the general Space Wolfy-ness. His issue with Bjorn not getting a drop pod kinda conveys that. If any other Space Marine chapter had a Dreadnought like Bjorn, they wouldn't deploy him in the most dangerous method possible.

 

This isn't a bash, just an observation. The world needs its mathematicians.

 

LoneSniper,

 

It looks like you have misread me because I called you an over-the-top fanboy the other day. I appreciate that you are hung-ho about the Wolves, but you took it to the point of just being rediculous.

 

I'm actually much more about the fluff than the mathematics, and have merely listed out the things in the codex that I would have done differently; if you think it was done perfectly that's fine, I'm sure Phil Kelly would be pleased to hear it.

 

I've been playing and collecting Space Wolves for over 17 years; they were my first and still are my favorite army. The metal Bjorn model was one of the first that I got of the Space Wolves line, and I included him in every game that I ever played when the 2nd edition codex was finally released. I am ecstatic that I get to field him as Bjorn, and not just as a generic venerable dreadnought entry once again. However, I would have given Bjorn a Drop Pod entry, for the reasons I provided to DV8, above. You are free to disagree with me, and that's fine.

 

You and I just have a different perspective on the fluff. If you want him to slumber in peace in The Fang, that's okay. I want Bjorn to accompany my Great Company on some important campaign; to get him down from the Strike Cruiser to the battlefields he needs a Drop Pod. He could always deploy via Thunderhawk, but Pods penetrate air defenses reliably.

V