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So like... why is there no Iron Hands special character?

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#1
silversmith82

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First Founding "codex" Chapters:

Salamanders - Vulkan He'Stan
Imperial Fists - Darnath Lysander
White Scars - Korsarro Khan
Raven Guard - Kayvaan Shrike
Ultramarines - Calgar and Sicarious and Tigurius... and Chronus AND Telion...

Iron Hands... ????????????????

I mean I'm not an Iron Hands fanboy or anything, my favorite chapter are the IF, but even the Crimson Fists get a special character and they're 2nd founding. It just seems like a pretty big slap in the face to single out a first founding chapter for exclusion while you give the Ultramarines 5 special characters and even give one to a second founding. Please don't turn this into an "omfg Ultras are GW golden child" thread. I'm just wondering if this was intentional or what. Doesn't seem like it could be anything but with it being the ONLY first founding chapter left out.

#2
Ferrata

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This was a discussion of much debate when the codex first came out. Some believed it might have been due to a tie in with the Space Wolves (both being clan based chapters), but obviously this did not come to fruit. I don't know why the Iron Hands were "forgotten", I doubt they were truely forgotten, and I doubt GW would attempt to reconn them out of existance (seeing as they are in the codex and the HH deals with them). Maybe they couldn't think of a good replacement for Combat Tactics so didn't force a character. Maybe Chronus was meant to be the IH character, but they decided they couldn't equal him to the others and thought IH players might be offended more with a lesser character over no character.

Edited by Ferrata, 22 November 2009 - 05:16 PM.


#3
Legatus

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Well, they got the Master of the Forge. So they snuck one of their specific HQ characters into an otherwise Ultramarine based Codex. That is even better than getting a special character which considerate players would not use in regular games anyway.

#4
Captain Juan Juarez

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Why does there HAVE to be an Iron Hands SC?

"Because the others have one..." seems a bit weak.

Edited by Captain Juan Juarez, 22 November 2009 - 05:21 PM.

" They made you to be untouched by God or mortal. As I cannot kill you, so I curse you, not with death but with life.

I curse you - with the pain of ten thousand days in the Dark Place, with the life's blood of a mage's sacrifice, with Death's authority held in my hands.

I curse you, and I strike your name from history, stripped of arrogance and pride, empty of the self you once knew, gutted of all you are. I take your name and all you have won by the strength of your hand. I curse you for eternity, to find only darkness where once you knew your own face.

And I dub you the Ragged Man."

#5
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Why does there HAVE to be an Iron Hands SC?

"Because the others have one..." seems a bit weak.


Seems fair to me though.

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#6
RobDonkey

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They do have a chapter specific multi-part kit though. Salamanders don't. Ultramarines don't.

And any special character for IH would be a cross between Vulkan He'stan and the Master Of The Forge anyway...

#7
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Maybe, just maybe, it was intended to be a tie in with an Adeptus Mechanicus Codex one day... :lol:

#8
Captain Juan Juarez

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And to be honest the only IH character I'd ever want to see, on a personal level, is Gabriel Santagar!
" They made you to be untouched by God or mortal. As I cannot kill you, so I curse you, not with death but with life.

I curse you - with the pain of ten thousand days in the Dark Place, with the life's blood of a mage's sacrifice, with Death's authority held in my hands.

I curse you, and I strike your name from history, stripped of arrogance and pride, empty of the self you once knew, gutted of all you are. I take your name and all you have won by the strength of your hand. I curse you for eternity, to find only darkness where once you knew your own face.

And I dub you the Ragged Man."

#9
silversmith82

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Why does there HAVE to be an Iron Hands SC?

"Because the others have one..." seems a bit weak.



It would if there were only a few other chapters with one like in 4th. But in 4th they had traits. In this codex EVERYONE gets special characters except the IH. That's like in elementary school where every kid gets a valentine card except one. Not a coincidence lol. MotF is ok...

Edited by silversmith82, 22 November 2009 - 07:23 PM.


#10
Heru Talon

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This was a discussion of much debate when the codex first came out. Some believed it might have been due to a tie in with the Space Wolves (both being clan based chapters), but obviously this did not come to fruit. I don't know why the Iron Hands were "forgotten", I doubt they were truely forgotten, and I doubt GW would attempt to reconn them out of existance (seeing as they are in the codex and the HH deals with them). Maybe they couldn't think of a good replacement for Combat Tactics so didn't force a character. Maybe Chronus was meant to be the IH character, but they decided they couldn't equal him to the others and thought IH players might be offended more with a lesser character over no character.

I think it's more to do with who was writing the Codex than anything else. Consider that they don't have a SC and they aren't even boxed like the other first Foundlings (and the Crimson Fists) in the Chapter scheme and descriptive blurb section.


Well, they got the Master of the Forge. So they snuck one of their specific HQ characters into an otherwise Ultramarine based Codex. That is even better than getting a special character which considerate players would not use in regular games anyway.

The Master of the Forge isn't an Iron Hand HQ, he doesn't even really come close to an Iron Father (Chaplain/Techmarine combo).
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#11
RobDonkey

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Why does there HAVE to be an Iron Hands SC?

"Because the others have one..." seems a bit weak.



It would if there were only a few other chapters with one like in 4th. But in 4th they had traits. In this codex EVERYONE gets special characters except the IH. That's like in elementary school where every kid gets a valentine card except one. Not a coincidence lol. MotF is ok...



Shall I list all of the ones in Codex Space Marines? Yes? I shall.

Ultramarines: Calgar, Sicarus, Tigurius, Cassius, Telion and Chronus
Crimson Fists: Kantor
Imperial Fists: Lysander
Raven Guard: Shrike
Salamanders: Vulkan He'stan
White Scars: Kor'sarro Khan

Black Templars, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark angels have theirs in their respective codices. The Chaos Legions have theirs in their codex.

So, as you say, Iron Hands are the only one without. I guess that gives you the chance to make your own.

#12
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Chaos legions have their own codex. Only SC's there however are cult legion based, infamy based such as Fabius (he is detached from his legion for the most part), Abbadon the warmaster and of course the traitor corsair leader blackheart. I still miss Doomrider and Cypher.

the biggest thing about black templars is that they were a concept that missed the first founding tag, and bent further down the line of what the imperial fists were supposed to be. IF = Masons (that later evolved into the templar regime that was later disbanded through torture and hunting them down). So thats what lead the black templars to have their own codex above the first founding Salamanders chapter during the race between the two chapters during the armageddon codex campaign.

Salamanders had their own codex rules at one point. That's an even bigger slap in the face. And for a while they couldnt put their heavy flamer marines anywhere.

Iron Hands never truly had a spotlight. During 3rd edition marine codex it was crimson fists if you remember their cover art.

I also believe its favoritism towards the more popular choices. The easier money makers. And of course the direction GW goes with their codexes, they would love to release a thousand marine codexes if it meant keeping their xenos and guard players in the process. Unfortunately, they found out a while ago releasing too many codexes for marines in one year made people stop collecting their other models.

Its counter productive to have a product that is never bought in favor of over producing one product line and have it fizzle out leaving un-used equipment for years on end and actually costing them money in the end. That's the price of making so many different models at once. (Any different model even if its both a fire dragon model, if they're posed differently they are in fact different models)

Though this is simply a case of perhaps future planning in the process. Certainly they didn't add a character for the hands because they felt the theme/fluff isnt as attractive or complete enough to leave it open ended for a future project.
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#13
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They do have a chapter specific multi-part kit though. Salamanders don't. Ultramarines don't.

ANY multi-part plastic kit is Ultrmarines. Even Fantasy or Lord of the Rings. :D

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And it's Gabriel Santar! :P What, I love the IH too...:P

Edited by Skirax, 22 November 2009 - 08:37 PM.

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#14
RobDonkey

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I mean one covered in chapter symbols. Space Wolves have an entire range. :L

#15
Vash113

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Unlike some people think the Master of the Forge is really not an Iron Hands character at all. The Iron Hands have what are called "Iron Fathers" a cross between Chaplains and Techmarines. The Master of the Forge is well... a Master artisan and reclusive scholar/smith... not really the same.

The lack of equal attention to the Iron Hands, and a lack of Special Character, particularly when the Crimson Fists got another Character (they used to have Cortez don't forget), was a huge slap in the face.

An Iron Father Character wouldn't have been that hard to design and supplement and Chapter Tactics that allowed Crimson Fists squads to take Signum's and upgrade Sergeants with Terminator Armor would have done just fine.

I honestly cannot fathom why a 1st Founding Chapter would be excluded so. The Imperial Fists and White Scars are if anything equally uncommon, I'd even hazard a guess that due to the price of Bikes and the difficulty painting white the White Scars are probably even more rare than the Iron Hands. So why the Iron Hands were left out of the spotlight in both fluff and rules is a mystery, the only possible conclusions being either disregard, contempt or ignorance. All 3 are hardly the most encouraging of possibilities.

Another disservice Mat Ward has foisted on the Space Marines...

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#16
Conor The Great

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As a follower of Ferrus Manus i belive there is a conspiricey to rid them of the 40K universe,Think a bout it,No SC,In Fulgrim he appeares as an unintresting character who dies ne way,i woundt be suprised if in da next codex the entire chapter was destroyed by Chaos,the Nids or the Necrons
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#17
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They lost their Terminator armor, their bionic wargear, and their spellcheck.

#18
Legatus

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Unlike some people think the Master of the Forge is really not an Iron Hands character at all. The Iron Hands have what are called "Iron Fathers" a cross between Chaplains and Techmarines. The Master of the Forge is well... a Master artisan and reclusive scholar/smith... not really the same.

Some people have forgotten that the Iron Father was not much more than an HQ choice Techmarine with an additional wound.

Also, this is how the Codex Space Marines describes Masters of the Forge (page 70):

"Such uncanny, and perhaps unnatural, skill conspires to make the Master of the Forge something of an outcast in most Chapters. Though he is part of the Chapter Council, the Master of the Forge is an outsider to all save his subordinate Techmarines, whose company is shunned in all matters save those that pertain to his beloved mechanicals. (...)
Not all Space Marine Chapters treat with their Master of the Forge in this way. Some, such as the Mentors, the Praetors of Orpheus and the Astral Knights, embrace the dwindling technologies of Mankind without superstition and, in the case of the Iron Hands, with gusto.
In these Chapters, the Master of the Forge is a personage honoured no less than the Chapter Master himself."


What I get from that description: If the Codex Space Marine army list was truly supposed to represent the typical Ultramarines organisation, the Master of the Morge would have never been included as an HQ choice. In such a typical Chapter he is more of an outsider, not one who regularly leads armies to battle.
It seems more like he was specifically included for such slightly divergent Chapters that put more emphasis on their ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus, such as specifically the Iron Hands.

Sure, the Codex lacks a bit of characterization of the divergent Chapters such as the Iron Hands and the White Scars. How they organise their Chapters differently and how they may have different titles for their units, formations or personalities, but they did get a few extra army list choices which otehrwise would not be part of an "Ultramarine" list.

#19
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What I get from that description: If the Codex Space Marine army list was truly supposed to represent the typical Ultramarines organisation, the Master of the Morge would have never been included as an HQ choice. In such a typical Chapter he is more of an outsider, not one who regularly leads armies to battle.
It seems more like he was specifically included for such slightly divergent Chapters that put more emphasis on their ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus, such as specifically the Iron Hands.


I fail to see your point to be honest.

Besides we know the Master of the Forge was included to "appease Iron Hands players" or something of that nature, Mat Ward said as much in a White Dwarf interview. I don't care, it's a half baked generic HQ choice that doesn't fit the Iron Hands fluff at all, and I mean not at all.

And it's not that all other Chapters got little to nothing compared to the Ultramarines, that's horrible enough and a source of great animosity towards the Chapter, it's that even compared to the other Chapters of Legend the Iron Hands have nothing, nadda, zippo of worth in the Codex. There's more word for word on the Grey Knights of all things, than there is on the Iron Hands. The Crimson Fists, a second founding Chapter, have a Special Character and a better pride of place in the Chapter fluff section than the Iron Hands.

That is the point, the Iron Hands are practically entirely absent from the Codex, even compared to the other Chapters of Legend and no, the Master of the Forge is by no means an appeasement, nor does it do anything what so ever to make up for that lack. If Mat Ward thought it would he is sadly mistaken.

EDIT: I've even gone and looked up the relevant quote from US White Dwarf number 345, page 21:

Andy: A Master of the Forge?
Mat: There are two reasons why he came about. Firstly, I wanted to codify the senior Techmarine and give players the option of leading their force with this type of character, which will no doubt please Iron Hands players no end.


Ok so not appease as such but it certainly hasn't pleased any Iron Hands players i know of, not compared to everything the Chapter didn't get that it should have.

So to answer the question of why there is no Iron Hands special Character... I don't know. As I said before there's only a few possibilitie. First, Mat Ward didn't care enough about non-Ultramarines Chapters to be bothered dealing with the Iron Hands. Second possibility is Mat Ward doesn't like the Iron Hands and tried to minimize them in the Codex as much as possible. The third, and in my opinion most likely, possibility is Mat Ward just didn't bother to do anymore research than he had to and was simply ignorant of the Iron Hands status as a moderately popular 1st Founding Chapter. Or in short disregard, antimosity, or ignorance... I'm not sure which of the three is worst.

Edited by Vash113, 22 November 2009 - 09:58 PM.

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#20
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From looking at the chapters collected by people at my local store Iron Hands don't even register as collected. The others are more popular so they make money. They aren't going to put lots of time and effort into a chapter that won't be as profitable as Ultramarines, Space Wolves, either of the Fists, Templars, White Scars, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.

#21
Vash113

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From looking at the chapters collected by people at my local store Iron Hands don't even register as collected. The others are more popular so they make money. They aren't going to put lots of time and effort into a chapter that won't be as profitable as Ultramarines, Space Wolves, either of the Fists, Templars, White Scars, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, etc.


A single store is hardly an accurate slice of the playerbase and armies collected. I've seen one White Scars army and it was only being collected as an interest piece by a veteran player. I've seen 3 Iron Hands armies, and 1 Imperial Fists (mine actually) and 0 Crimson Fists. The Imperial Fists are not that popular because yellow is a royal pain to paint, and White Scars because white is also a royal pain to paint and because their primary role as a largely bike force makes them very expensive $$$ wise compared to other Marine armies. Comparatively the Iron Hands have a Chapter specific squad box that used to cost nearly a hundred bucks on GW's website and has now dropped back down to 45 and made the army far more easy to collect again and I doubt that was done because nobody plays Iron Hands.

Popularity isn't really a good excuse.

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"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
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#22
RobDonkey

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Or they dropped the price to get people to buy it.

They might have something waiting in the wings. For all we know a Codex might be planned. And does the chapter really need one? Without characters Ultramarines are bland. Iron Hands are far more interesting in that they're all cyborgs or something.

Edited by RobDonkey, 22 November 2009 - 10:11 PM.


#23
Legatus

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I fail to see your point to be honest.

Besides we know the Master of the Forge was included to "appease Iron Hands players" or something of that nature, Mat Ward said as much in a White Dwarf interview. I don't care, it's a half baked generic HQ choice that doesn't fit the Iron Hands fluff at all, and I mean not at all.

(...)

Ok so not appease as such but it certainly hasn't pleased any Iron Hands players i know of, not compared to everything the Chapter didn't get that it should have.

"Iron Father" in 4th Edition Codex: Techmarine with +1 W

"Iron Father" in 5th Edition Codex: Techmarine with +1 WS, +1 W, +1 A, +2 LD, + some extra options

Certainly that is an improvement? :P


So to answer the question of why there is no Iron Hands special Character... I don't know. As I said before there's only a few possibilitie. First, Mat Ward didn't care enough about non-Ultramarines Chapters to be bothered dealing with the Iron Hands. Second possibility is Mat Ward doesn't like the Iron Hands and tried to minimize them in the Codex as much as possible. The third, and in my opinion most likely, possibility is Mat Ward just didn't bother to do anymore research than he had to and was simply ignorant of the Iron Hands status as a moderately popular 1st Founding Chapter. Or in short disregard, antimosity, or ignorance... I'm not sure which of the three is worst.

Two interresting facts to put the amount of Iron Hands material into perspective:

1. When Mat Ward was given the task to write the Codex, it was supposed to be exclusively about Ultramarines (and their direct successors, I assume). It was decided later during developement that it should instead also include the other not too divergent Chapters.

2. Despite that fact the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines contains as much material on non-Ultramarine Chapters as no other Codex Space Marines ever did before. Indeed, while the relative amount of non-Ultramarines Material was icreased quite a bit, the relative amount of Ultramarine material is actually less than it was in the 4th Edition Codex.


So I can only repeat: Instead of creating a new Iron Hands special character, which some pleayers would then never use to play their Iron Hands (just like considerate players play their Imperial Fists or Raven Guard without Lysander or Shrike), an Iron Hands specific choice was actually added to the otherwise "Ultramarine" army list instead. In other words, the army list is now less "Ultramarine" because Matt included a choice for the Iron Hands. An Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists special Character does not take away from the Ultramarine theme of the army list. They are special characters of that Chaoter. Techmarine HQs and Bikes as troops choices do take away from the "Ultramarine" feel of the list. In my book that is a greater concession towards the Iron Hands than towards the Crimson Fists. I would not want to have to use the Chapter Master every time I wanted to play Crimson Fists. But I could allways take an "Iron Father" without any feel of guilt.

#24
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I have to agree that the iron father is pretty nice for the Iron hands. Most people don't want a special charcter to represent their army, they want to be able to make their own and the MoTF allows that. The only thing it lacks is a rosarius but considering all that it has gained as well as the new options like the thunderfire cannon I'm a bit confused as to what the IH players are complaining about. Sure, everyone else can take these choices but it's the same with the other special characters.

The lack of invulnerable save is inconvenient but the MoTF certainly packs a bigger punch and contributes more to the army now. The ability to take heavy dreads means there's less competition for your elites slots and you have more flexibility with how you create your army list.

Edited by Askari, 23 November 2009 - 12:03 AM.

QUOTE (c-wrex @ Jul 24 2009, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know it's a hands down win. That's why I'm saying there is no comparison necessary. Would Kimbo Slice beat up that dork who plays Harry Potter? Absolutely. (and I'd pay MILLIONS to see that happen) Is any comparison between Kimbo and the dork necessary? No.


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#25
Vash113

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"Iron Father" in 4th Edition Codex: Techmarine with +1 W

"Iron Father" in 5th Edition Codex: Techmarine with +1 WS, +1 W, +1 A, +2 LD, + some extra options

Certainly that is an improvement? :tu:


You must jest, neither is an "Iron Father" character, neither even aproximates what an Iron Father really is, as much a spiritual leader as an adept of the Machine God. Besides the rules for the Master of the Forge aren't even as good as the old HQ Techmarine thing it replaced. At least that character's rules gave us Terminator Sergeants. So no, not an improvement by a long shot where the Iron Hands are concerned Conversion Beamer or no. Not to mention the whole 6 Dreadnaught thing is about as fluffy for the Iron Hands as the Ultramarines going to battle naked.

Two interresting facts to put the amount of Iron Hands material into perspective:

1. When Mat Ward was given the task to write the Codex, it was supposed to be exclusively about Ultramarines (and their direct successors, I assume). It was decided later during developement that it should instead also include the other not too divergent Chapters.


I find that hard to believe. Do you have an actual source for that because it sounds like nothing but wishful thinking to me...

2. Despite that fact the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines contains as much material on non-Ultramarine Chapters as no other Codex Space Marines ever did before. Indeed, while the relative amount of non-Ultramarines Material was icreased quite a bit, the relative amount of Ultramarine material is actually less than it was in the 4th Edition Codex.


Firstly, that whole first sentence is poorly formed and hard to understand.

Secondly that is a pretty poor argument. The old codex was 80 pages long, the new one 144. Saying that the new has at least as much information on other Chapters as the old is quite pathetic given the new Codex is fairly close to twice as big as the last one. The Ultramarines got no less than 3 new characters, written as the gods of the Space Marines that all other Chapters bow down to and Marneus Calgar is the "spiritual liege" of the Adeptus Astartes. Compared to that the authors could barely deign to mention the Iron Hands... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that's rediculous.

I also cannot fathom from where you draw the idea that "the relative amount of Ultramarine material is actually less than it was," I mean what on earth is that about? The Old Codex had a few pages about the arrival of the Tyranids, the Battle for Macragge, the Tyranid Hunters and so on. The new Codex has a whole 2 page spread just to depict the Ultramarines 2nd Company. 8 pages on Ultramarines battles alone, compared to 9 on ALL the other Chapters. 1 page more hardly seems fair given there's 999+ other Chapters than the Ultramarines.

And that is just scratching the surface. It's that attitude that gets so many people, including myself I might add, royally pissed at the Ultramarines and sometimes at Ultramarines players as well. The whole codex is really a slap in the face to ALL Space Marine players other than Ultramarines, but the Iron Hands have it if anything worse than everyone else.

I mean pages 12-49 contain most of the Chapter specific fluff in the Codex, that's 37 or nearly two score pages on various Space Marine Chapters and Mat Ward could only bother to spare one friggin paragraph for the Iron Hands? Pathetic, absolutely and purely pathetic. As I mentioned before, even the Grey Knights have substantially more (43 words for the Iron Hands compared to 224 for the Grey Knights). To make that simple that's roughly 5.5 times more space and words devoted to a Chapter that has no reason to be in the codex in the first place. And yes... I did count them.

So I can only repeat: Instead of creating a new Iron Hands special character, which some pleayers would then never use to play their Iron Hands (just like considerate players play their Imperial Fists or Raven Guard without Lysander or Shrike), an Iron Hands specific choice was actually added to the otherwise "Ultramarine" army list instead. In other words, the army list is now less "Ultramarine" because Matt included a choice for the Iron Hands. An Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists special Character does not take away from the Ultramarine theme of the army list. They are special characters of that Chaoter. Techmarine HQs and Bikes as troops choices do take away from the "Ultramarine" feel of the list. In my book that is a greater concession towards the Iron Hands than towards the Crimson Fists. I would not want to have to use the Chapter Master every time I wanted to play Crimson Fists. But I could allways take an "Iron Father" without any feel of guilt.


You labor under the impression that the Master of the Forge is an Iron Hands Character that has infiltrated the otherwise "Ultramarines" specific Army List, and that is as far as I can see just nonsense. To the contrary Mat Ward specifically stated why he included the Master of the Forge in the interview I previously mentioned. In fact I'll be considerate and quote him again, in full this time.

Andy: A Master of the Forge?
Mat: There are two reasons why he came about. Firstly, I wanted to codify the senior Techmarine and give players the option of leading their force with this type of character, which will no doubt please Iron Hands players no end. The other reason was that I wanted the actual Techmarines to go back to their original role of repairing vehicles, so I pushed their profile down a bit and made them a more viable choice.


So there you have it, from the horses mouth himself. The Master of the Forge is not an Iron Hands Character seeping into the rest of the Codex, or a character included to specifically make Iron Hands players happy. On the contrary, Mat Ward makes it pretty clear he included the Character to give light to who actually commands the Armory, and to return the regular Techmarines to support roles. The Iron Hands are only mentioned in passing as apparently Mat Ward seemed to think that such a character would make Iron Hands players happy... which we can see... is not the case.

In conclusion, saying Iron Hands players should be "happy" that a half-baked, largely inappropriate character wound up in the army-list and makes it feel less "Ultramarine" to you, regardless of the total lack of Special Characters or fluff for the Chapter, is both inconsiderate and rediculous.

Oh and I should mention that I know this post likely comes off as extremely harsh and unrelenting. I hope it gets the point across this time, I'm getting darn tired of having to repeat myself all the time because people cannot comprehend why others are unhappy with the sham Mat Ward foisted on us. Don't sprinkle sugger on this rubbish and call it candy.

Edited by Vash113, 23 November 2009 - 12:30 AM.

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"Are we going to scrap about it now. Argue which Legion is the toughest?"
"The answer always is, the Wolves of Fenris," Torgadon put in. "Because they're clinically insane."
-1st Captain Sigismund of the Imperial Fists and Captain of the Luna Wolves 2nd Company.





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