61 replies to this topic

[astartes88]

Just wandering if i was right in thinking that if by some chance of emperor blessings all four of the chaos gods were to be eliminated, would all the cursed powers they imposed upon there slaves be no more? Seriously would all the traitors loose their power and thus be easier for the noble warriors of the imperium to conquer?

possibly wrong area to post this.

[Draeden]

Firstly, I resent the implication that my brothers and I are slaves. Some are simply slaves to their own desires, others follow the Original Imperial Creed of Knowledge and Illumination better than your cults mindless zealous worship....

Now onto the other matter... no, I do not feel that the mutations, knowledge and equipment blessed upon us by our benefactors would disapear. And on the flipside, our sorcerers, who are more used to handling vast quantities of Warp energy that only your Librarians can barely grasp at, would mean our psykers would become much stronger.

Knowledge gained can not be simply removed. Mutations are part of the body, not the Daemon-God. Daemon-Forged Equipment is created out of warp energy (which would still remain) cenetered around the weilder. And a Daemon, bound to a weapon or item, would invariably survive for a while at least, fueled on by the conciousness of its weilder and warp energies.

But then again, the only way to conquer the Ruinous Powers is to conquer humanities conciousness itself. And well... I'm pretty sure my Brothers would agree that slavery to a false god isn't an appealing concept...

[Ntin]

There are other things in the warp to fear besides the Ruinous Powers and they are not the source of all daemon-kind. Even without their patronage, the Chaos Marines are still veterans of thousands of years of warfare and live their lives in places that would drive a normal man to insanity in minutes. There would be a power vacuum as all those that have attained daemonhood would die with their god, including the Chaos Priminarchs. The Imperium is not equipped for large scale warfare within the warp to capitalize in the confusion that the death of the Chaos Gods would bring.

[Capt. Lysander]

In a synopsis to what the two others said before me, were the Chaos Gods to die, the warp would still remain, thus the fuel of chaos energies would still be there. Of course, this may lead one to think: What about those who worship Chaos Gods? I believe they would remain the same, for they do what they want to do, their worshiping of certain gods only taken by their shared views.

For example Khorne Berserkers would still slaughter thousands, there bloodlust would not be gone: World Eaters were bloodthirsty before the Horus Heresy, and their taking of Khorne as their new deity did nothing to change that.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

What about those who worship Chaos Gods? I believe they would remain the same, for they do what they want to do, their worshiping of certain gods only taken by their shared views.

For example Khorne Berserkers would still slaughter thousands, there bloodlust would not be gone: World Eaters were bloodthirsty before the Horus Heresy, and their taking of Khorne as their new deity did nothing to change that.

They'd have to be gone for the Chaos Gods to be destroyed, at least by mortal means. The acts of the worshippers is what gives the Chaos Gods their power.

[Draeden]

What about those who worship Chaos Gods? I believe they would remain the same, for they do what they want to do, their worshiping of certain gods only taken by their shared views.

For example Khorne Berserkers would still slaughter thousands, there bloodlust would not be gone: World Eaters were bloodthirsty before the Horus Heresy, and their taking of Khorne as their new deity did nothing to change that.

They'd have to be gone for the Chaos Gods to be destroyed, at least by mortal means. The acts of the worshippers is what gives the Chaos Gods their power.

Hence my original statement.

All that the Ruinous Powers are is the Reflection of every sentient races inner thoughts and feelings. The only way to purge the warp of their influence is to enslave the very minds and souls of many of the inhabitants of the galaxy...

Now that would mean this so could "Emperors Blessing" as the original poster put it... would turn you into a mindless drone.

So, being a mindless drone vs knowing that you're screwed in the end still but having a choice as to how you end up that way... I'd go with the Ruinous Powers.

[Terrible_Trygon]

For the Chaos Gods to be truly destroyed, it means there is to be no emotion in the Universe. The Emperor's evil triumphs and the mindless drones of the human races pillage the Universe.

Fortunately, that will never happen. Be brave brothers, for the evil of the corpse emperor will soon be undone, and the people will be free.

Edited by Terrible_Trygon, 03 January 2010 - 02:01 PM.

[Badhaggis]

not all chaos would be defeated given that some legions dont really need the chaos gods (alpha and IW)

[infyrana]

On the flipside that some don't need gods to be warriors... Plague Marines, manifestations of Nurgle's power imbued in them keeping them alive.. they would probably be majorly affected. How, I've no idea.

What would happend to Daemon's if there were no gods ? An interesting question that only the original designers could possible answer.. to truly know what it is that they made and are a part of in essence.

[tripking]

in my opinon, if you think about it, killing the dark gods of chaos would be like getting rid of chaos compleatly
which would make the balance of karma, law, life, death ect. go off haywire destroying everything and seem
like nothing even happend.

so if you think about it, without chaos and order balancing each other out
anyone think we all would have a reason to exsist?

plus, my space marines wouldn't have anyone to fight with anymore and my fun would die lol

[The Nephilim]

For the Chaos Gods to be truly destroyed, it means there is to be no emotion in the Universe. The Emperor's evil triumphs and the mindless drones of the human races pillage the Universe.

Fortunately, that will never happen. Be brave brothers, for the evil of the corpse emperor will soon be undone, and the people will be free.

What he said. Seriously, that'll never happen. No one has the power to do it. Point and example: Slaanesh not only has the Laughing God locked in eternal combat, but he's able to focus his will across the rest of the galaxy and do as he wishes? So basically, he's soloing the Harlequin god with his pinky finger? And you expect what to save you? The Emperor? Hahahahahahahahaha. Right.

Its all true. The Corpse-God will never wake up. The Empyrean is over the rainbow. And Midian is where the monsters live.

Edited by The Nephilim, 26 January 2010 - 02:47 PM.

[Brother-Captain Alecto]

I always thought that the Chaos Gods are simply appallingly powerful daemons. If, however, they are coalescences of mortal emotion given an evil sentience, then surely they can still die, but new ones would immediately begin to form.

[The Nephilim]

I always thought that the Chaos Gods are simply appallingly powerful daemons. If, however, they are coalescences of mortal emotion given an evil sentience, then surely they can still die, but new ones would immediately begin to form.

Which in all actuality, would be worse for the galaxy. The last time a god was born, he wiped out most of an entire race and created the Eye of Terror in his birthing.

[Brother-Captain Alecto]

Yeah, but, oddly, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch did nowt when they awoke. I think it is just the Eldar that are a bit weird

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

To be honest I'm not sure how easily you're writing off the theory.

Really, I don't think the Emperor would defeat the Chaos Gods by simply attacking them with his pure awesomeness and destroying them. The big E was in fact working on the Imperial Webway before the Heresy to enable humanity to travel the galaxy without much of the exposure to the beings in the empryan.

An easier way to destroy them would be to seal off warp-space from reality, something touched upon in the 'Rise of the Tau' story, a very good read if ever there was one.

If humanity could close the Maelstrom and the Eye of Terror it might just limit the Ruinous Powers enough to give them the upper hand, that said it's a monumental task and not something I see the Imperium being able to do on their own or anytime soon.

If the Emperor in his warp-borne form could do these things instead, humanity might just have a fighting chance.

On the chaos marines themselves? I'm not sure. All the Daemons would die, surely, since while they are independant entities, they are fuelled and supported by their masters will. I don't think the Daemon Princes would die, in so far as they would lose all power and simply become wandering entities in the warp, adding to the cavalcade of forces and ghosts that already exist there.

Mutations might lose their potency here and there, the ones that were give by direct intervention by the gods perhaps? Otherwise simple exposure to the warp and the mutating of the flesh is 'natural' enough in itself.

Though Abaddon would suddenly be very vulnerable, all of his blessings as the chosen of the four gods would dissipate. The representatives from every chapter he has ever wronged would fall upon him like a pack of rabid dogs. Something I'd like to see, the battle would be suitably epic.

In the end this is conjecture, but amusing conjecture at that.

Lets just hope Cypher makes his way to the Golden Throne in time to save humanity eh?

[Brother_Kaelgrim]

There was a period of time when there were no Chaos gods though. Remember that the Old Ones had no problem with Khorne, Tzeentch, and such before the Enslaver Plague. Theoretically, if the Emperor does become a "god" in the Warp, he could have the strength to calm it again and make it to where it is no longer a bastion of Chaos but Order, or Mankind, or w/e.

The warp is a reflection of psychic consciousness. Its Chaos now because that is what the galaxy is filled with right now. If that changed, who knows what would happen?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Yes the warp is a reflection of the emotional state of the universe, but the Chaos Gods themselves are living, self-aware entities that actively promote their own existance. While this is no different to any other living being or indeed any sapient life form (in the 40k universe) the fact that they must corrupt and enslave the wills of other beings in order to do so puts them on a different playing field.

In the end I'd say that while the warp is a reflection of us, the Ruinous Powers need to be brought down in order for the natural balance of things to be restored.

On the note of the Old Ones and the gods before this time, I am highly amused to think of Tzeentch in the same vein as the Hat - God of Unexpected Guests from Discworld. Dropping in on people in that manner in the MUD is rather fun I must say and if that was Tzeentch I'd sign up to his church in a cold minute.

[IronWinds]

I doubt you can kill the chaos gods without destroying the warp... or destroying all the beings who's thoughts project into the warp.

But lets assume you could. Killing the gods would have little effect on the powers chaos marines already have. Even princes are fueled by the warp.

My thoughts are how long would it take to re-create the gods? Each god symbolizes emotions and thoughts. Assume Khorne was destroyed. Really... how long before he simply was reformed in a new way? All the hate, destruction, and war that he feeds on is still there... so instead of Khorne receiving all that power a new god would quickly be borne OR one of his greater demons would receive it and become the new Khorne overnight.

The only way to defeat chaos is to either cut minds off from the warp(Necrons can do it), or kill every being who projects thier mind into the warp(necrons or nids would have to do it).

Now in a BL novel a necron device does cut the warp off from an area of space. This is much worse than a single god dying. There were effects on the chaos marines. Possessed couldn't summon their demons. Possessed tanks and ships had problems. Sorcerer's couldn't talk to demons, summon demons, etc. but they still had their normal powers. So if the gods died the effects would be less than that... and honestly the gods would be born again pretty quick. And the last time a god was borne the eye of terror was created, creating 4 new gods over a short period of time would probably have even worse effects. Nope.. the gods are here to stay.

[minigun762]

I can't see the Chaos Gods every being fully destroyed to be honest. Weakened? Thats possible. Forced to go dormant? Maybe. But never destroyed.

Oddly enough it makes me think of that quote from the 2nd Matrix film. "there are levels of survival we are willing to accept"

[Korraz]

They are tied to humanity, imo. Considering that the Eldar and the Orks made their own Warp-Gods, it seems pretty logical that mankind brought them into existance, with the exception of Slaanesh. Considering they never really turned up until the whole Birth-mess, it seems that they were simply "asleep" and growing. I have the theory, that the emotions of all being create some kind of "blank"-demon, that is tied one emotion, but has no real form. It just dwells in the warp, until a race rises and becomes very powerfull and their unified emotions fuel those demons. They fuse and depart and become embossed and shaped by those thoughts. So, when the race takes heavy losses, they diminish and become really weak, to the point when they simply disappear or become "blank" demons again, unless they find a way to protect themselves. This is exactly what happened to the Eldar: The only Gods that were relativly unharmed were Khaine, whose loss of power was compensated by the colletive rage of the Eldar and the Laughing God, who more or less shut himself from the warp and hid in the Webway.

Imo, you can only weaken the reach of the chaosgods into reality, by closing the Maelstrom and the Eye. With those gone they would be more or less trapped in the warp. Without those they would be like 98% stripped of their power in reality and couldn't really do anything, save for the occasional whisper. Travels through the Warp still might be pretty dangerous but maybe the Warp would be far less stirred, with the two swirls gone. But the important thing is, that the Gods wouldn't be able to go around and corrupt anymore.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I wouldn't say that the Chaos Gods were linked to humanity per-se. The Chaos Gods have been around long before humanity existed and the fact that the Eldar created Slaanesh and that he is the youngest of the gods, himself many thousands of years older than humanity at the least.

These emotional links are part of every life-form regardless of species. Humanity is only now so inexorably linked to the ruinous powers because they are the most dominant and numerous species in the galaxy bar the Orks.

On the gods corrupting people, I heartily disagree. No one man or being can force you to make a decision you truly do not want to make. The gods at most merely warp reality around you in an attempt to influence you to make the wrong choice, or perhaps the right one for you given that you might not be the best person overall to start with.

I think the Daemon Princes might lose some of their potency, as would some of the Chaos Marines seeing as some of their gifts are granted directly from the gods themselves and while they might rely on the power of the warp, the warp itself is inherently random and may well dissipate as soon as not.

In any case I think the closing of the open warp points in the galaxy would do a lot of good against the ruinous powers and on that I firmly agree.

[Draeden]

As Grey Hunter Ydalir pointed out, Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch were romping around, living it up back during the rear end of the War in Heaven, and the Enslaver Plague wiped out almost all life and those three managed to survive. Sealing off the warp would indeed greatly weaken their reach, but I am left unsure as to if it would weaken them themselves.

Also, The Carrion-Lord sealing off the warp? Hah! What is he? The Deciever?

[Ferrata]

We know that the Chaos Gods are linked to emotions, and currently humans are the biggest contribution to that emotive power. If the Necrons or Tyranids were to win, the Chaos Gods will shrink massively in size as neither of these have emotions that the Gods can feed from. Previously it was the Eldar who fed them, pre-fall. Now, unless you can remove all emotions you cannot destroy the Chaos Gods. If you lived in a Utopia of hippies, then Khorne would be massively weakened. If you lived in a place free of the urge for change, Tzeentch will be weakened. But they would never truly die - they might become inactive in our Universe until their power grows again, but they wouldn't be destroyed.

Now, on a bit of theory I like. There are a million Chaos gods, each for a different emotion. Although there is a heirarchy in power - with minor gods and major gods. So when the Eldar gave birth to Slaanesh, they merely exploded him from a minor god to a major god. A lot of minor gods may not be able to play in the real universe, their power too weak to reach out of the warp. How I've liked to imagine it is major gods have become major because they have destroyed minor gods and, in doing so, taken over their emotion. The minor god may be reborn for they are the true god of that emotion, but a lot of their power will now go to the major god. This could explain how Khorne is not only the god of Bloodlust (maybe his first emotion) but also of the honourable warrior. This could lead to the term "aspect of the Blood God" to mean a minor god that has been taken over by Khorne. Anyway, now I am rambling.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Personally I think that the Four have grown so far beyond "destruction" as the Astartes are beyond human.

I don't think you could ever truly destroy them now, just weaken them.

In corporeal form the Four would be weaker than they are within the Warp, but still more powerful than any Greater Daemon.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Just like any other entity if you take away the force that sustains them they will cease to exist, at the very least in the form they take now.

I also doubt they are even capable of taking corporeal form, they are far too expansive a warp entity to be able to hold any sort of form in the mortal universe I think, regular daemons have a hard enough time as it is gaining entry into the physical world. Bringing into being a corporeal representation of a god would be both limiting in terms of what that god could accomplish I'd geuss, but also rather difficult.