Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Just to throw something in... I wouldn't use Warmaster because 'cough Horus cough' the Space MArines have a big history with 'cough Horus cough' the title Warmaster 'cough Horus cough' and generally don't like it because 'cough Horus cough' of a certain key figure 'cough Horus cough' that is despised throughout the Imperium 'cough Horus cough'. I hope you know who I am talking about. :jaw: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Angel Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 you ok there? you sound sick... get some rest man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Just to throw something in... I wouldn't use Warmaster because 'cough Horus cough' the Space MArines have a big history with 'cough Horus cough' the title Warmaster 'cough Horus cough' and generally don't like it because 'cough Horus cough' of a certain key figure 'cough Horus cough' that is despised throughout the Imperium 'cough Horus cough'. I hope you know who I am talking about. :o Warmaster is still used as the title for commander of the crusade. Note: Both Slaydo and Macaroth (Sabbath crusade commanders for ignorant.) are called Warmaster(s). The Macharius on the other side was called Lord Solar, which is the same title like the Warmaster, but its different because of the Horus thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 A powerful inquisitor is deemed radical by the Just and executed. They are excommunicated by the remnants of the Inquisitor's powerful allies who escaped. They flee the Imperium and are counted as renegades, but they still fight for the Emperor and Mankind. I considered that but it seems too obvious. No, it's perfectly plausible. It just makes your Chapter hypocrites. Inquisitors get the right of innocent until proven guilty just like the Astartes do, and "Radical" is not a substitute for "Heretic" (something the Puritan factions are forever dogged by). This is quite workable, just not for a righteous 'actually-loyal-to-the-Emperor' (as opposed to just believing they are) Chapter. To be honest, the feeling I get from reading this IA is that they would make a very good hypocritical Chapter. They're treading on the toes of two Imperial organisations (the Inquisition and to a lesser extent the Officio Assassinorum) meaning that there is going to be some serious consequences for the Chapter. They get pushed out of the Imperium as a result, but they continue to believe that they are loyal to the Emperor, even though they are tragically blind to the fact that their search for "justice" is harming the Imperium rather than helping it. Do you think that would work? At the moment, there really isn't a way you can keep the relentless search for justice and be friends with the rest of the Imperium. I'm not saying you can't tread on the toes of other Imperial organisations, just that there needs to be serious consequences as a result. Which way do you want to take this - relentless justice or Imperial loyalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 i'd like to throw my weight behind the anti-raven guard lobby Ultimately yes, because they are paid authors with explicit permission from GW than can have tritor RG but your chapter is a new chapter and I just don't see them doing it when the RG would be straining at the leesh to sort out their house before others do, i'd agree i'td be better to execute an already traitorous chapter, i'd have less problem with it being 1st founding traitors. I just think that given it's a throw away one off quote it doesn't NEED (the important word) to be RG Also i'd agree (I have made the same mistake), you don't have relationships with "the inquisition" you have relationships with inquisitors, and equally this doesn't mean they would just be crazy zealous, you need a reason (i.e half you chapter turned and now the remaining loyalists hate traitors with a renewed passion above and beyond normal chapters. Secondly why do you have a different non-codex structure? my chapter did and I was hounded (in a good sense) until I refined a good reason for having it, you currently don't, you have veterans staying within their companies and yet also at the same time have a double strength first? Why? I do however like the idea of an executioner squad in each company thats unique and catchy The Volta massacre, are you going for world eaters or not? you marines are effectively barbaric killers who slaughter people, sure they don't enjoy it in the way WE did but even so, they are pretty crazy and at the moment there is no reason for their frankly psychotic behaviour, sure they are Astartes but they were once human and 100 guys slaughtering 150,000 peopld is just madness, you'd get called to account for that kind of behaviour in my opinion (plus 100 vs 150000 is just to much, sure a marine might be able to go toe to toe with alot of civilians but eventually weight of numbers would start to take its toll, see galaxy in flames, 1 marine vs 1500 people, I back one of them to get a lucky hit in their somewhere) I realize alot of this sounds very negative, I dont intend it to be however I do feel that the background needs substantial development or else the Just with simply become a 2d chapter who hate for no reason, in my opinion given their current exploits i'd feel just in unleashing my own chapter against them if I was a chapter master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 11, 2010 Author Share Posted February 11, 2010 Grand Master Tyrak, Gil Galed, thankyou for your insightful criticism! RE: The ==][==, I admit it was more a lazy mistake than intended but I shall edit the Inquisitorial friendliness. RE:The Volta Massacre. That was simply because I wanted to give different type of combat doctrine, but I wanted to swing from one extreme to another. Hence Captain Lowak and his arrogance. I will note that is wasnot 150k armed people,it was most the few thousand rebels "coercing"the civilians as amassive meatshield, thus why I felt I couldmakeit such a large number..Very few were even armed. RE: The First Company. I envisage the First as the personal "shotgun" of the Chapter Master, although it has its own Company Captain. MaybeI should just drop the size and give the CM a small "household" of say forty troops? GMT - With regards to how I want them to go... Justice to the point of insanity, but I don't know how to carry it off without being cliche. Any advice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 GMT - With regards to how I want them to go... Justice to the point of insanity, but I don't know how to carry it off without being cliche. Any advice? Do you want them to stay within the Imperium or not? If you want them to stay, then I imagine them chafing at their inability to enforce justice as they see it (because other organisations are already doing it) and being frequently at odds with the Inquisition. Perhaps they might even be at odds with some of their brother Chapters who want them to focus a little more on smiting the enemy without as well as the enemy within. If you want them to leave the Imperium, then pretty much anything's game. The point of leaving/expulsion will be critical though, as will questions of supply, their interaction with Chaos forces, whether or not they associate with pirates, and things like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 11, 2010 Author Share Posted February 11, 2010 GMT - With regards to how I want them to go... Justice to the point of insanity, but I don't know how to carry it off without being cliche. Any advice? Do you want them to stay within the Imperium or not? If you want them to stay, then I imagine them chafing at their inability to enforce justice as they see it (because other organisations are already doing it) and being frequently at odds with the Inquisition. Perhaps they might even be at odds with some of their brother Chapters who want them to focus a little more on smiting the enemy without as well as the enemy within. If you want them to leave the Imperium, then pretty much anything's game. The point of leaving/expulsion will be critical though, as will questions of supply, their interaction with Chaos forces, whether or not they associate with pirates, and things like that. I would prefer to keep them within the fold, but I can't see them enforcing their brand of justice within it as it is corrupt at heart. As renegades, they would have greater scope to destroy the unjust within the Imperium.. Plus theres a cool "we're your friends,let us ambush you" concept with regards to Chaos..AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH the choices. Really, I cannot see them as loyalist with the way they would enforce their idea of justice.... I'd like to, but I can'tso it has to be renegade I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 Yeh hope it helped, may I suggest further to the civilian slaughter that you drop the numbers some what? In galaxy in flames the world eaters go up against whats described as thousands of civilians who are armed with nothing but their "faith and sorrow" or something like that and even then marines die simply under the weight of numbers and presumably improvised weapon like bits of wood or even stones, while space marines are super humans I still think that 1500 humans might manage to kill one, say your marine carries 1000 bolter rounds and gets them all off killing 1000 people, that still leaves 500 v 1 and while he's hacking apart the 250 to his front there are 250 behind him trying to bludgeon him with a piece of masonry, perhaps 100 space marines murder 30,000 people? seems more believable and its still such a massive number, indeed I think it's more affecting on a human level to have small numbers because by the time you get to 150k its just a statistic (thankyou Grand Pa Stalin) ~Gil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 This will be the last post for the Just in this incarnation.. I am totally going to rework the IA,partly from my own ideas but also with respect to the insightful comments by man of you,in particular Gil Galed and Grand Master Tyrak. Thanks, dudes. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 EDIT: This is not here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil galed Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 before I read through the new stuff I suggest you edit it all into the first post, otherwise everyone will keep reading through the first post and commenting on that not your new stuff :) ~Gil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted February 12, 2010 Share Posted February 12, 2010 I've copied it into the original post. A little note on Liber Etiquette - if your chapter isn't off the first two/three pages, do not start a new thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 12, 2010 Author Share Posted February 12, 2010 I've copied it into the original post. A little note on Liber Etiquette - if your chapter isn't off the first two/three pages, do not start a new thread. Didnt even know it was still on the first page.. I apologise :P -------------------------------------------------- The new Chapter is now in the opening post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 I've copied it into the original post. A little note on Liber Etiquette - if your chapter isn't off the first two/three pages, do not start a new thread. I will take that advice to heart. Om nom nom. Oh, BTW, I was wrong about the Warmaster thing. I just though it would be slightly inappropiate, considering the reason I, um, presented. :angry: Those crazy emoticons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 I'm glad the new version inspired such ferocious discussion and comment! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 Right then. The exact date of the Founding of The Just is unknown, however they did begin to appear in Imperial records shortly after 659.M32.The Chapter was founded in response to an increase in Traitor Legion attacks in the area of space surrounding Cypra Mundi and it is rumoured that the Inquisition, most particularly the Ordo Hereticus, had a hand in its creation The Ordo Hereticus does not exist until M36, as it is founded in the immediate aftermath of the Age of Apostasy. Up until then the Ordo Malleus had fulfilled its functions. To be honest, I don't think this actually adds much to your Chapter. It's just an isolated reference and doesn't appear again anywhere else. I'd recommend dropping the Inquisition bit. The beliefs of the Chapter tie in directly with their inception, the Chapter regards its duty as a dispenser of justice to the Traitor Legions in particular, but all renegade Astartes in actuality.The Just hold two central tenets as the core of their beliefs; Honour and Justice. Of the two Justice is the one most highly regarded; for any true son of the Just would sacrifice his honour or his life to destroy a traitor. The Chapter believes that the Emperor sits in Judgement upon all who serve him, those that serve him well and faithfully will be granted peace. Those who betray the Emperor and his works will be damned and to The Just does fall the task of ensuring that every Traitor reaches the Emperors Judgement. "Justice is blind" is a saying that echoed down the halls of the Chapter Fortress on Jericia for thousands of years and the Chapter takes this to extremes, each helmet used by the Brothers bears lenses made of non-reflective material that permits light to enter but allows none to exit when set correctly, thus taking away the usual "glow" of an Astartes helmet and giving the appearance of blindness. This needs a little more hypocrisy injected into it to indicate that they're now renegades. At the moment this wouldn't be out of place in a Loyalist Chapter. The annihilation of traitors has long been the focus of The Just; the Chapter going to extremes to dispense justice to those who deserve it. Such is the fanatical nature of The Just that they have often come to the attention of other, equally zealous, Imperial institutions such as the Officio Assassinorum or the Inquisition, though they may not know it. This can go into the Beliefs section, it doesn't need its own sidebar. Plus, you should change it to "Such is the fanatical nature of The Just that they came to the attention of other, equally zealous, Imperial institutions such as the Officio Assassinorum or the Inquisition long before the Volta Incident, though they never knew it." This change means the last sentence in the sidebar (which I've not quoted) can be cut. After a brief, but exceptionally bloody, period in their early history of slaughtering the inhabitants of any population centre taken the Jericians came to an almost universal concord that should any Fortress-City or Castle-Town be taken then the aggressor is the victor and there shall be no further bloodshed.Thus, the Jericians slowly began to perfect a form of siege warfare that seeks not to decimate a structure or kill the inhabitants, but instead to force a breach through which an overwhelming force can move through and claim dominion. This is very interesting. Perhaps you could add in something on how these tactics have influenced the Chapter? Lord-Inquisitor Tobias Pern arrived with a small shoal of vessels mostly of the Imperial Navy; including the Overlord-Class cruiser that he made his flagship, the Furious Might Since you're planning on fighting these guys later (and you only have three ships), I'd recommend toning this down. They're not expecting any enemy space forces, so a Gothic-Class Cruiser and a squadron of 2-4 Sword-Class Frigates should be enough. That gives you a slight advantage, and allows you to trounce them without suffering much damage (they're not expecting an attack). It was only then that Captain Lowak discovered that the rebellion had spread all across the world, as well as arrival of the Lord-Inquisitor. Lowak’s discoveries marred by a cold anger as the Inquisitor demanded that the Fourth disperse and thus allow Exterminatus to be carried out on this lost world. Rebellion is not a cause for Exterminatus, and an Inquisitor Lord will definitely know that. TBH, this is the kind of thing that you'd summon the Imperial Guard for. Since this is a crucial point in your Chapter going renegade, I'd recommend changing it rather than removing it completely. To add a little more tragedy to the Chapter, how about changing it to a miscommunication? You think he's about to carry out Exterminatus, they're just carrying out an orbital bombardment, and by the time you see that it wasn't an Exterminatus shot the die has been cast and your attack is in full swing. Notable Operations Unless something key about the Chapter can be drawn from these operations, they serve no purpose other than to be shiny. If that's the case, they should go. If there is something to be drawn from them, then they should be slotted into the appropriate section. They don't need a section of their own. The same applies to "Notable Personnel". That's all for the specific sections, but there are some formatting issues. Firstly, the Volta Incident should lose it's own heading and be copied into the Origins section. This is crucial to who your Chapter is and you can't wait till halfway through the article to tell us about it. The "Aftermath of the Volta Incident" sidebar can be removed and its content tacked onto the bottom of the main text on the Volta Incident. It disrupts the flow to leave it half-finished and to redirect people to the sidebar. Homeworld should come directly after Origins, followed by Beliefs, Combat Doctrine, Organisation and Gene-seed in no particular order. Battlecry should be the last thing in the IA. Relations with Imperial Organisations is really just a statement of the obvious, so it should go. It certainly doesn't need a section of its own. The colour scheme picture should be moved down into the article to cover for some of the now-missing sidebars. I see that he's a Veteran, and not wearing the basic colour scheme. To my mind, the first picture the reader should see is the basic colour scheme, with variations (like this veteran) being shown later if at all. That's all for now, keep up the good work. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 My first quick point: At least you didnt pick up on any continuity errors! :P Second, I did want to try and get two images, one of the Vet and a second of a basic marine, each with a identifier in it.. But I cant get it to work, even after reading the BBCode Guide ten odd times! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 Right some alterations have been made... And to be honest i think it flows a bit better now. Only thing i have to do now is work out how to deal with the picture thing! EDIT: I was thinking of making the Executioners from Chaplains.. As they hunt and slay traitors specifically. Too cliche, or a good way to tie in the Chaplains? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted February 13, 2010 Share Posted February 13, 2010 EDIT: I was thinking of making the Executioners from Chaplains.. As they hunt and slay traitors specifically.Too cliche, or a good way to tie in the Chaplains? As long as you don't stray too near the Dark Angels set-up, then that seems fine to me. One point I have noticed though - you've put the Volta Incident into Beliefs instead of Origins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 I think it would make them too DA-esque, so I shall pass methinks. Edited now, to make more sense! Any further thoughts, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 13, 2010 Author Share Posted February 13, 2010 The now, I would like to think, finished IA: The Just complete with pictorial elements. Please comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigismund Himself Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 The exact date of the Founding of The Just is unknown, however they did begin to appear in Imperial records shortly after 659.M32. The Chapter was founded in response to an increase in Traitor Legion attacks in the area of space surrounding Cypra Mundi. They know why they were founded but not when? Surely by cross referencing when the spike in traitor activity was they could find when they were founded, no? The Volta incident is written in too much detail. It needs a bit more of an overview and not so much detail. It also raises an interesting question. The Inquisition are the Emperor's judges, juries and executioners. How does the chapter view them then, given their focus on justice? Their fall doesn't make sense IMO. If the Chapter Master disagreed with the Captain, all he would have to do is hand him over to the Inquisition (or his dead body) and submit to an Inquisitorial investigation to clear their name. This would be justice for his rash action and ensure the chapter can survive. There's a couple of spelling errors in the piece ('know' instead of 'no' etc) that should stand out if you leave it for a few days and come back to it. Onto theme. From what I read, you're aiming for marines with a sense of justice that happen to be good at siegecraft. The theme is there to see but the writing is a bit fragmented. The article never really develops a sense of flow which makes it hard to read. I would look at just trying to structure it a bit better and making proper paragraphs (at the moment, the new lines and paragraphs are a little weirdly done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Why don't you continue? It was a great start and I can see it go on really well! (if you want, I can help you on this one!) ++Over++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Well, it's Captain Juan's decision: to write or not to write. :) From what I can see, all that really needs doing is shortening the Volta Incident, which is a bit wordy. And possibly a short bit about more recent actions, or at least recent sightings of The Just. But it's easy to become disenchanted with IA writing too, since it takes a lot of work and time to get the best from it. If CJJ still doesn't want to carry on with this chapter, that's cool too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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