48 replies to this topic

[Edelward]

What about those like Iron Warriors ? Those who were garrisoned and could not had known about Heresy ?

I think you all have read The Storm of Iron and prollly have some interest in that legion
what was the name of their new leader again - Honzou ?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

What about those like Iron Warriors ? Those who were garrisoned and could not had known about Heresy ?

I think you all have read The Storm of Iron and prollly have some interest in that legion
what was the name of their new leader again - Honzou ?

Spoiler:

Spoiler

Honsou was a half-breed, Iron Warrior with Imperial Fist geenseed, as I recall.

[Brother-Captain Alecto]

But Skraal did have a chance too and he didnt even after he found out his own Primarch did.

That is distorting the truth. Skraal doesn't belive Zadkiel when he tells him. Skraal says, 'then you have betrayed my primarch,' not, 'my primarch is a hound and a rotter and I am not going along with it.' Zadkiel never goes 'Angron has turned to Chaos, join the Dark Side.' He is about to, but Skraal puts a dampener on the meeting by throwing his chainaxe through a wall, and threatening Zadkiel.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The Eisenstein is a matter of massive contradiction. First off, in Realm of Chaos, it was a Chaos frigate that the Istvaan III loyalists hijacked. No names were mentioned, nut accounts indicate that the marines were in company strength. Then we get the newer things, in the 1989 Space Marine book, which first mentioned Garro's name. Other sources state that the 70 marines were lead by Captain Varren of the World Eaters and escaped in Thunderhawk transports.

Still another source suggests that Captain Saul Tarvitz of the Emperor's Children led the group. According to this account, Varren's World Eaters were supposed seize control of the Eisenstein at the same time that the other Marines would take control of four separate ships (presumably their own transports/frigates) and use these vessels to defend the Eisenstein so it could jump to Warp Space. This does not mesh seamlessly with later sources, which indicate that Garro, not Varren or Tarvitz, was responsible for warning the Emperor of the Heresy and which seem to imply that all 70 Marines accompanied him to Terra

Ben Counter's Flight of the Eisenstein, tells of Captain Nathaniel Garro leading only loyal Death Guard Marines. He is joined by Iacton Qruze of the Luna Wolves and the remembrancers Mersadie Oliton and Euphrati Keeler, as well as the iterator Kyril Sindermann. The remaining Loyalist Marines are left fighting on Isstvan III because delivering the warning to the Emperor supersedes their rescue from the planet's surface. The Eisenstein is able to escape but becomes stranded in the Warp. They are however rescued by Rogal Dorn and the Eisenstein is scuttled.

I simply combined all the above accounts.

Wow! An open thread on /this/ Topic!
/pinch self/

Well i for one can't wait for Varren's story to be told. The WE are just mentioned as a few "dazed" astates in GiF. My guess is no more then 30 make it off Istavaan III with Tarvitz. If you want to hear it from the horse's mouth check for the video interview with Dan Abnett, or give his Blog a look.

[brother captain lucius]

i heard someone say lokens alive he could be but it states when the despoiler goes to kill him the roof collapes on loken and then loken gives in to red mist so could have been healed his wounds or they were to bad demanded an apothecarys attention so could be dead u never know until dan states so

Edited by brother captain lucius, 23 December 2010 - 02:01 PM.

[lee265]

1)Guys This is world Eater suvival topic not debate to death again other events.

2)Fluff is Important even if some cliche's are done repeatedly.

3)The other important things said. Just go with they don't what geneseed (this is also done a lot) they have and write great story fluff about their battle exploits and how they fight like world eaters. If you must have perhaps they have geneseed you could use Space Wolf (somehow they do have another founding chapter) and have them fight hardcore even for them. At some point you will probably have to use cliches to do this or just ignore parts of fluff and be willing to just ac knowledge that you are just ignoring whichever part or parts it is.

4) You could always steal the time line treat you eople as if they are from the Legion itself and give the other players a bad time about not wearing legion specific colors and possibly being traitors.

Edited by lee265, 23 December 2010 - 03:22 PM.

[Razhbad]

Ok well in Age of Darkness there is a short story about Loyalist Iron Warriors vs Traitor Iron Warriors. Graham McNeill's next HH story is about Loyalists from the Traitor Legions and an Astropath. I do not about Loken, Tarvitz or this Verren but I am sure it will be made all clear later

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

First, was there a 100% mortality rate for the loyalist members of the traitor legions at Isstavan III, or is it possible a handful could have survived? I've read the HH novels, but I can't find conclusive evidence either way.

Well i think that this question has finally been answered. In Garro: Legion of one, people are saying there is a World Eater Loyalist. From what i have gathered it is indeed Varren. Whats more is that it dose appear the Astartes on the cover of the audio book is indeed Loken. Now that we know the mortality rate on Istvaan III was /NOT/ 100%. I would like to propose even more though. If the fluff on Varren stays consistent as it has with Garro and Tarvitz, then to me that would say he was also on Istvaan III. That would mean that he and maybe others found a way off world and left Loken behind. This is another hint that perhaps Tarvitz and others made it.

Link for an Extract for the book.

http://www.blacklibr...ion-of-One.html

Even more bad news for the people who don't want there to be surviving loyalists form the traitor legions, the Extracts from Iron Within, ( http://www.blacklibr...Tour-Dates.html , http://www.blacklibr...eofdarkness.pdf ) implies that a Iron Warrior will make it, and if I'm right, join the others taken before the Emperor by Malcador, to found the Grey Knights. I have come to believe that the astartes were all from different Traitor Legions.

Loken -- Luna Wolves

Tarvitz -- Emperors Children

Garro -- Death Guard

Varren -- World Eaters

Mhotep -- Thousand Son

Tarrasch -- Iron Warriors


Yes i know Mhotep is the weak link on this list but i still have hope. That leaves 2 spots from the 3 remaining traitor Legions. Word Bearers, Night Lords and Alpha Legion.

[snorkle]

Which book states that Tarvitz got out alive?

[Jelle1880]

None of them I think.
I'd love to believe Ancient Rylanor is still alive, the virus would not have affected him but after he is sent to guard a hangar he is not heard of again.

[snorkle]

Aha...so the assumption is that they got to the hangar he guarded and escaped. Am I understanding this right?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Aha...so the assumption is that they got to the hangar he guarded and escaped. Am I understanding this right?

Yup. I don't see reason to even mention Rylanor was guarding a "Hanger" if there was no escape ship in it. Since he was guarding it, what ever was in it had to be important. You would not send Ancient Rylanor to guard an empty or useless hanger. Also the fact that it was called a "Hanger" and not a "Warehouse" or "bunker", to me means that it had a ship in it. To have it in the story tells me that some one used it.

Now the next Crumb on this trail is about to be doped when we find out for sure Varren is with Garro in Legion of one. When Varren was first revealed to us a Looooooooong time ago he was one of the loyalist Survivors of Istvaan III, along with Tarvitz. If they hold true to this fluff then i feel Varren must have been one of those confused looking World Eaters with Tarvitz at the end. Since he is with Garro in Legion of one, i'm hoping that means he and Tarvitz along with Rylanor and some others made it back to Terra. Tarvitz and Garro made a Oath of Moment to meet up back on Terra after all.

[snorkle]

Yup. I don't see reason to even mention Rylanor was guarding a "Hanger" if there was no escape ship in it. Since he was guarding it, what ever was in it had to be important. You would not send Ancient Rylanor to guard an empty or useless hanger. Also the fact that it was called a "Hanger" and not a "Warehouse" or "bunker", to me means that it had a ship in it. To have it in the story tells me that some one used it.

I totally agree. I just can't believe I didn't catch that when i read the books. My bad.
It would be pretty lame of Tarvitz to abandon his troops though. Much better for him to go down with the rest of the loyalists what with him being the unofficial leader of their defense. But i guess someone has to use that escape otherwise it's a wasted plot point.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Yup. I don't see reason to even mention Rylanor was guarding a "Hanger" if there was no escape ship in it. Since he was guarding it, what ever was in it had to be important. You would not send Ancient Rylanor to guard an empty or useless hanger. Also the fact that it was called a "Hanger" and not a "Warehouse" or "bunker", to me means that it had a ship in it. To have it in the story tells me that some one used it.

I totally agree. I just can't believe I didn't catch that when i read the books. My bad.
It would be pretty lame of Tarvitz to abandon his troops though. Much better for him to go down with the rest of the loyalists what with him being the unofficial leader of their defense. But i guess someone has to use that escape otherwise it's a wasted plot point.

???? Huh? Who said Tarvitz abandoned his troops? He was with them to the end/ not so end. In every account of the Final Bombarding of Istvaan III, Tarzits was with his troops as the Bombs begin to fall. It is also clear that none of them run for cover. I don't see that changing. If you are trying to say he could not of survived any other way i will disagree with you fully. From his point of view it was going to take a "Miracle" for any of them to survive. My money is on the first manifestation of the Shrouding that gives them Divine Intervention. Either way it will be called plot Armour. Some surely still think there is no way to live through a bombing like that given by Horus. But they said the same thing about Loken............

[DaemonPrinceDargor]

IIRC,Garro:Legion of One also mentions that "it would take more than a simple bombardment to kill off an Astartes..."

Edited by DaemonPrinceDargor, 15 March 2011 - 08:30 AM.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

IIRC,Garro:Legion of One also mentions that "it would take more than a simple bombardment to kill off an Astartes..."

Yeh, Ive been saying that for years now it seems. Horus felt the same way. He said something close to..... "The problem with Bombing you foe from afar is that some vermin will survive."

[snorkle]

???? Huh? Who said Tarvitz abandoned his troops? He was with them to the end/ not so end. In every account of the Final Bombarding of Istvaan III, Tarzits was with his troops as the Bombs begin to fall. It is also clear that none of them run for cover. I don't see that changing. If you are trying to say he could not of survived any other way i will disagree with you fully. From his point of view it was going to take a "Miracle" for any of them to survive. My money is on the first manifestation of the Shrouding that gives them Divine Intervention. Either way it will be called plot Armour. Some surely still think there is no way to live through a bombing like that given by Horus. But they said the same thing about Loken............

No one, but unless that hangar is friggin' gigantic how can all of the other marines get offworld. What's the point of mentioning the hangar if that's not how they survive?

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

???? Huh? Who said Tarvitz abandoned his troops? He was with them to the end/ not so end. In every account of the Final Bombarding of Istvaan III, Tarzits was with his troops as the Bombs begin to fall. It is also clear that none of them run for cover. I don't see that changing. If you are trying to say he could not of survived any other way i will disagree with you fully. From his point of view it was going to take a "Miracle" for any of them to survive. My money is on the first manifestation of the Shrouding that gives them Divine Intervention. Either way it will be called plot Armour. Some surely still think there is no way to live through a bombing like that given by Horus. But they said the same thing about Loken............

No one, but unless that hangar is friggin' gigantic how can all of the other marines get offworld. What's the point of mentioning the hangar if that's not how they survive?

Things we know about the Hanger:

1) It is underground. This means the ships it was holding are not the kind that float on water. If a ship could leave it would have to fly, or maybe use web way portal ect. Also being underground should make it resistant to bombing.

2) It is guarded by Rylanor. I think this proves it is Valuable.

3) Its construction predates the current human population.


Things we do not know about the Hanger.

1) The size. Most hangers i know of are big though.

2) The location. The hanger could be underneath the city they are fighting in or miles away.

3) Contents #'s/ creators/ Size of vessels ect. There could be many small ships or one really big one. Maybe they are built by a race who the Astartes could figure out how to use the ship. Maybe its even warp capable.



Being Friggin gigantic is just one of the many things this Hanger could be. They only need room for around 100 Astartes and Rylanor. Either way i think that the Hanger is not the most important hurdle Tarvitz and the others have to get over. They Need to survive the Bombing first.

[gogmagog]

ASIk, Garro was to recruit a member of each legion, thus the first one was an Ultramarine Librarian, If you google a review of the next Garro instalment you can find out what ahppens next and who is recruited!!?

[snorkle]

Yeah I should probably reread it and think it all through instead of being stubborn^^

[The emperors chosen]

One thing Walkier pointed out that is important is the size of the remaining troops. They had roughly 100 troops left, no where near enough to make a big difference. I don't think Tarvitz would have sent Rylanor to guard something that would not have been able to hold all of the remaining troops. But even if they did survive, remember, they still need to make it back to Terra.

[Jelle1880]

Aha...so the assumption is that they got to the hangar he guarded and escaped. Am I understanding this right?

Yep, but so far there is no confirmation that they actually managed to escape.
As for reading it: I only saw it when looking up some stuff about Ancient Rylanor as it's quickly skimmed over in the book, if I recall correctly.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

One thing Walkier pointed out that is important is the size of the remaining troops. They had roughly 100 troops left, no where near enough to make a big difference. I don't think Tarvitz would have sent Rylanor to guard something that would not have been able to hold all of the remaining troops. But even if they did survive, remember, they still need to make it back to Terra.

I believe i can finally show that Pre-heresy Loyalists, World Eaters included, did indeed survive Isstvan III and also made it back to Terra. After listing to Garro: Legion of One and re-reading Flight of the Eisenstein , i can finally triangulate the survival of multiple loyalists survivors of the ground war.

A ) In Garro: Legion of One

Spoiler

We learn Garro rescues a abandoned Loken from Isstvan III. Not only that but Varren is indeed with him. I think it is hinted that Varren was on Isstvan III but it dose not come right out and say it, much do my frustration.

B ) In Flight of the Eisenstein

Spoiler

Verran is noted at being present in the Area of Isstvan III, on two separate occasions.
1 ) pg 210 as the Eisenstein has begus its flight. Garro wants to broadcast that the Warmaster is a Traitor to the whole fleet. He thinks "There were noble men out there, he was sure of it, warriors like Loken and Toragoddon in the Warmaster's own Legion, and Varren of the World Eaters... If only he could contact them, save thier lives; but to do so would have menat suicide for everyone on the frigate.
2 ) Pg 284 Garro weighed the slate in his hand. 'seventy men, Iacton. Out of the thousands of Astartes at Isstvan, we are all that still live beyond the reach of the Warmaster's treachery'. The words were still difficult for him to say aloud, and he saw that Qruze found it just as hard to hear them.
There will be others,' insisted the Luna Wolf. "Tarvitz, Loken Varren... all of them are good, staunch warriors who won't see such rebellion without opposing it.'

Now that both Loken and Varren are known to have survived combined with the old fluff that Tarvitz made if off Isstvan III with Varren, we only need to know how the later pulled it off. I Really hope A D-B new book Betrayer will sort this all out. So much for the 100% death rate..

[Olisredan]

So much for the 100% death rate..

Well, 99% is still pretty respectable...