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[Dornian Heresy] Emperor's Children 'Counts-as'


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#1
Aurelius Rex

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The Dornian Heresy, which has been featured in the new Legio Imprint - the e-zine of the B&C - has shown an alternate timeline where the legions came out a little different to the norm. Click the board banner or the links in my sig for more details. There has been interest expressed in discussing what rules could be applied to field these armies, and so first up, discuss a 'counts-as' ruleset, and then, if needed, go for a set of homebrew house rules.

For the full story on the Emperor's Children, check the Legio Imprint. The short version, however, goes like this. ;) Fulgrim froze the legion’s organisation and combat doctrine after their defeat of the Laer, making the Emperor’s Children the consummate pre-Heresy army. They have access to large stocks of old marks of armour, the superior ‘Raptor’ pattern jump pack, and even jetbikes.

They have never accepted chaplains into their ranks, and don’t take things like the post Heresy advancements such as assault cannons, storm bolters, the Tilvius APC (Razorback), Land Speeders, Vindicators, Land Raider variants other than the basic lascannon-armed vehicle and later versions of the Predator.

+++ Edit: They have small numbers, but strive to be an elite, fast-moving strike-force. In combat they are graceful, swift and deadly. +++

So regarding a ‘counts-as’ rule-set, there are a number of possibilities – if you can think of something, put it up here, and say how it would and wouldn’t fit with reference to the unit descriptions. There may well not be a perfect solution, and different codexes may fit different grand companies’ styles of combat. Rather than come up with one definitive ruling, I would rather lay out the options for people to choose the one that fits their preferred style or take on the army.

Throwing some ideas out now:

1) Codex: Chaos Space Marines – It misses off most of the post-Heresy things they don’t take anyway, like Speeders, LR variants, assault cannons, storm bolters and ‘Razorbacks’. They can take autocannons in their squads and combi-bolters ratherthan storm bolters on Terminators, pintle mounts and the like.
2) Codex: Dark Angels – If you want to run a jetbike-heavy army then the Ravenwing would give you access to a real jetbike... perhaps use speeders as ‘counts-as’ jetbikes, or even proxy normal bikes as jetbikes.
3) Codex: Blood Angels or Space Marines – If you want to go jump-pack heavy, the Vanguard squads and the like would be characterful.

OK, that’s an opening salvo of ideas with which to play... what do you think?

Regards,
Aurelius.

Edited by Aurelius Rex, 18 May 2010 - 08:51 PM.

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#2
Collinsas

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I had this question about the PDF (sorry if it’s less of a rules thing and more of an appearance thing) as well by raptor jump pack do you mean this:
Posted Image
or this:
Posted Image
The reason I ask is because the Chaos raptors only use a modern jump pack with modified Air intakes.

Edited by Collinsas, 17 May 2010 - 04:42 PM.


#3
ALIENAGENUS_Cate_FALSUS

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I would say that the EC would use the SM codex, even if they use the old gear, and don't want to use the "new" gear like stormbolters and such. If they use the the CSM codex, they will be partly gimped by the heavy section shrinking alot, and they only have one viable troop choice. If you want to make an DH EC force you can alway choose not to use Land speeders and such. If someone wants to use terminators with Auto cannons and twin-linked bolter instead of the assult cannon and stormbolter, I dont think many will object to that.


What I mean is that an EC codex would be like the SM codex without the new stuff, what the new stuff is I am not so sure about, but I belive others might.

#4
Aurelius Rex

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I had this question about the PDF (sorry if it’s less of a rules thing and more of an appearance thing) as well by raptor jump pack do you mean this:

...

The reason I ask is because the Chaos raptors only use a modern jump pack with modified Air intakes.


The jump packs you put up there look very interesting - do you know a source of them?:P

I'm not certain if the 'Raptor' pattern is an official name or not, or even what the difference is, but in the white Dwarf article accompanying the release of the Chaos Raptors (circa WD235 or so) there was some fascinating background material saying that the Chaos forces (raptors) still use a (probably Chaos modified and maintained) version of the original and better pre-heresy era jump pack, and that the loyalists used the simpler to maintain version they got from an SCT found on the planet of DH2...

I took this obscure bit of HH universe info and twisted it for the Dornian Heresy - I try to stick with things as much as possible as nods to the veterans. :)

Now if this has been retconned in the last decade, or more likely overwritten by later GW writers who didn't know about it in the first place I don't know... but it pleased me to include it, and it seemed to fit that the pre-heresy technology was actually often superior to that which came later.



@Cate - It would make sense to have loyalists using a loyalist codex, I agree, and if it fits your style then go for it, I say. :) There may be some minor house rules required to cover the weaponry like combi bolters to storm bolters, autocannons to something else - either as counts as or otherwise.

You could certainly at least field a non-crazy dread that way - C:CSM fits to me in a lot of ways but that part jars. :)

Back on the subject, I will go through the C:CSM unit list later pointin out things that fit and don't, but how about the idea of having the Dornian Heresy EC often be given 'marks of Chaos' or 'Icons' to represent how elite and great they are - even focussing on 'marks of Slaanesh' to make them faster representing their balletic skill and speed in close combat? ;)

+++ Edit: I just checked... It was UK WD 231. :) The Raptors use a heavily modified / corrupted variant of the original and better mark of Heresy era jump pack. The Imperials use a simpler to maintain, but inferior version from an STC found on the backwater world of DH2. +++

Edited by Aurelius Rex, 18 May 2010 - 08:43 PM.

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#5
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

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The models in the first picture are from a golden daemon, I think, so the packs are probably custom. Still, other companies produce similar products (Chapterhouse studios being one of them).

I think the fluff deal with them is that the "barrels" style of jump pack was from rogue trader days, and was later abandoned along with many of the other older stuff. When designing what a Horus Heresy jump pack would look like, the developers came up with the Raptor jump pack. This was all well and happy until the Horus Heresy artbook was published, and they decided to use Rogue Trader stuff to represent older marks of armor/weapons etc., not knowing that the jump pack design had already been defined in the Raptor models.

Personally, I prefer the Raptor style over the "barrels" style. Regardless of what is now considered "canon", the Raptor style is the older pattern of jump pack in the Dornian Heresy universe.

Codex-wise, I'd go for the Blood Angels codex (just ignore "The Red Thirst" - shouldn't be a problem, no one will object to you skipping Furious Charge on some units). The Emperor's Children are supposed to have superior jump packs, and the Blood Angels have superior jump packs. There we go! The Chaos Space marines are really designed with using the unique, chaotic models to make an effective army in mind. Codex Blood Angels + judicious counts-as (Assault Cannons aren't terribly different from Reaper Autocannons, for instance) should do the trick.

As for the Chaos Marks representing their specialized training, I'd say that's probably a no-go. Stats changes like that in 40k are typically attributed to BIG changes (+1 toughness isn't from knowing how to tense your muscles when struck/fighting back pain, it's from horrific mutations or riding several tons of steel).

Edit: Change in argument.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 18 May 2010 - 10:46 PM.


#6
AGPO

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I'd have to agree with the Rev on the subject of Marks. When you consider there's only +1T between a guardsman and a Marine it's a pretty big step up.

There are arguments for either side however:

C:CSM
Pros - Larger marine squads, correct wargear, elite assault squads and special weapons squads, Chosen make veterans very flexible
Cons - Not taking any choas-specific upgrades would make the army a lot weaker, insane dreadnoughts

C:BA
Pros - Elite jump troops, lots of different vetewra units, sane dreads
Cons - No period wargear, t assault focused

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regardless of the madness of the need for officialdom.

 

 

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