264 replies to this topic

[Argon]

Also, you say "fallout", I say "increased radiation output from the planet's sun".

Either way I'd not make that onen the primary reason for Necris being a death world because then we'd more or less arrive at Baal - minus the deadly creatures. Not sure if we want that...

I was actually going with Thor Lokagio's strip mining idea.

Also, I found the homeworld section. I'll smooth out some of the more obvious problems and post it tomorrow.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Well if you conduct strip mining across an entire planet you're going to damage if not outright destroy the ecosystem. Destroy the ecosystem and you weaken the planet and probably destroy or at least damage the ozone layer, inflicting the world below to increased exposure to the sun in the process. It'd probably create a fairly harsh environment.

Any creatures and especially predators would likely then turn on the human population since their habitat and normal life was destroyed. I can imagine a lot of damage being done by these creatures, though how they would sustain any sort of threatening population after the rampant annihilation of their natural ecoystem is a question I can't answer.

On the note of Fallout 3, I loved the first two games and despite a fair few continuity errors between F3 and the other two, it was a pretty good game in it's own right.

[Argon]

Well if you conduct strip mining across an entire planet you're going to damage if not outright destroy the ecosystem. Destroy the ecosystem and you weaken the planet and probably destroy or at least damage the ozone layer, inflicting the world below to increased exposure to the sun in the process. It'd probably create a fairly harsh environment.

Any creatures and especially predators would likely then turn on the human population since their habitat and normal life was destroyed. I can imagine a lot of damage being done by these creatures, though how they would sustain any sort of threatening population after the rampant annihilation of their natural ecoystem is a question I can't answer.

On the note of Fallout 3, I loved the first two games and despite a fair few continuity errors between F3 and the other two, it was a pretty good game in it's own right.

So in summary strip mining turns the world into a Dead World. Got it.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

So in summary strip mining turns the world into a Dead World. Got it.

Eventually, I don't know how heavily your world is being harvested for it's resources though. It could take hundreds of years or thousands to completely strip the world bare.

It'd be interesting for a chapter to recruit from what they know to be a doomed world though.

[Lord Tybault]

It'd be interesting for a chapter to recruit from what they know to be a doomed world though.

Wouldn't really make sense in my opinion - after all, every chapter needs a constant inflow of aspirants. In the above case that influx would cease one day and leave the chapter with the dilemma where to get new aspirants from. Therefore I'd indeed rather completely rule out the 'dead world' idea.

Second option: It is thinkable that there's a whole system which Necris belongs to and that there are other inhabitated planets which would mean the homeworld itself wouldn't necessarily have to be inhabited by anyone else.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

What dilemma? Choosing between finding a new homeworld and not recruiting at all? I don't think there's much choice there, honestly, and I doubt anyone would choose the 'not' option.

Also if you know that this particular world holds good stock for creating Astartes and you also know that the recruits aren't going to dry up for at least a few hundred years wouldn't you want to draw as many recruits as you could before you had to find somewhere else to draw from? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and all that.

Anyway a dead world could be looked upon like Baal or it's moons. Definitely not nice places to live but there is enough of the remains of an ecosystem to support a small, tough population of survivors and nomads. This would not be bad stock for Astartes.

Edited by Grey Hunter Ydalir, 05 September 2010 - 03:50 PM.

[Lord Tybault]

What dilemma? Choosing between finding a new homeworld and not recruiting at all? I don't think there's much choice there, honestly, and I doubt anyone would choose the 'not' option.

Now that would be a pretty radical solution, don't you think? Possible, yes, but I'd rather keep things "reasonable" (whatever that means in 40K).

Also if you know that this particular world holds good stock for creating Astartes and you also know that the recruits aren't going to dry up for at least a few hundred years wouldn't you want to draw as many recruits as you could before you had to find somewhere else to draw from? A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and all that.

Why not have a death world that won't run dry? And certainyl there are more reasons to explain a desert world - and if it only is the fact that it's short distance to the system's star... I favor the solution of the Exemplars of having taken place on a desert world becasue the desert in common opinion is the best place for asceticism and meditation because it is a place of closeness to (the) god(s). Would fit perfectly for an Astartes chapter.

Anyway a dead world could be looked upon like Baal or it's moons. Definitely not nice places to live but there is enough of the remains of an ecosystem to support a small, tough population of survivors and nomads. This would not be bad stock for Astartes.

Althought hat is true does that qualify all aspirants not being from harsh environments as bad stock? I'd still go with the "religious contemplation" motif.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I'd still go with the "religious contemplation" motif.

Last thing I'll comment on in this matter is this:

You don't see a lot of shrine-worlds as recruitment grounds for Astartes do you? Spiritual contemplation is all well and good, but it's the body that responds to the Astartes creation process. It may be a flawed process but that's how marines like Luron Hufgt (Hugft?) got promoted into positions of power, their bodies were suitable where their minds were not.

While you are more than welcome to take a more spiritual outlook with your recruitment base, you also have to be willing to accept the likely much, much lower induction rate as well. I'd recommend a balance between the two really.

[Argon]

In the interest of giving some actual substance this whole debate thing, here's the Homeworld section.

Homeworld, Or: Index Astronomica: Necris

Necris is a Death World beyond the southern border of the Imperium, but still within range of the Astronomicon. Its surface was once verdant and full of life, but centuries of strip mining for the valuble minerals below its surface have reduced it to barren desert. The planet rotates relatively slowly around its axis, making days and nights longer and more intense.

These conditions are extremely inimical to life, and indeed very few species are able to survive. Almost every native animal (and even a number of plants) are fulling capable of killing a grown man, either with fang and claw or with potent venoms. Amazingly, humanity has managed to eke out an existance here. The people of Necris, the decendants of the original miners, live in various settlements throughout the desert. Society here is pious and industrious. Veneration of the God-Emperor and the saints is part of daily life, and many people consult their local priest before undertaking any new endeavors. Everyone is expected to contribute to the good of their settlement. and anyone who can not is sent into the desert to perish.

While the Marines Exemplar do recruit from a number of worlds around the galaxy, they draw the majority of their aspirants from Necris. Every twenty-five years, children of the appropriate age make a pilgramage through the desert to the shrine of Saint Arvas. Those that survive are allowed into the trials, having passed the first test.

The aspirants are given tests of strength, speed, and martial prowess, including many gladitorial contests. The aspirants must pass every test to be inducted into the chapter. Most die; those that simply fail become chapter serfs. The aspirants that manage to pass every test must finally prove their worth by venturing out into the desert alone to track down and kill a rock dragon, a massive reptile larger than a grown man armed with sharp fangs and potent venom that can stop even the strongest man's heart in less than a minute. Those that manage to do so and return to the arena are finally inducted into the chapter.

Edited by Argon, 01 October 2010 - 12:46 PM.

[Lord Tybault]

Now that does sound really good. Don't think we'll have to change very much...

My ideas for the <something> and <somewhere>:

- "something": Those that survive the pilgrimage are allowed access to the trials. Let's say that is the prerequisite for becoming a contestant in the first place and is a show of the boy's determination and survival skill - the trials themselves are more for martial prowess and exterity.
- "somewhere": Would most likely be a sacred place or the arena where the trilas have taken place and where the 10th Company captain, a librarian and an apothecarius wait for the survivors to return and be checked for suitability of becoming an Astartes.

What do you think?

[Argon]

Now that does sound really good. Don't think we'll have to change very much...

My ideas for the <something> and <somewhere>:

- "something": Those that survive the pilgrimage are allowed access to the trials. Let's say that is the prerequisite for becoming a contestant in the first place and is a show of the boy's determination and survival skill - the trials themselves are more for martial prowess and exterity.
- "somewhere": Would most likely be a sacred place or the arena where the trilas have taken place and where the 10th Company captain, a librarian and an apothecarius wait for the survivors to return and be checked for suitability of becoming an Astartes.

What do you think?

That sounds good.

A static homeworld usually means a fortress-monestary. This raises three questions:

1. Is it on Necris or one of its moons? Is it above ground or below ground?

2. What is it like? What sort of facilities does it have? The emphasis on faith would imply numerous places of worship. Perhaps the arena the aspirants fight in could be a part of it.

3. What is it called? This one is sort of optional, but a name would be nice.


Also, I found this awesome quote on the back of the 4th Ed. Space Marines Codex. I think it would fit the Exemplars quite nicely.

They shall be pure of heart and strong of body, untainted by doubt and unsullied by self-aggrandisement. They will be bright starts in the firmament of battle. Angels of Death whose shining wings bring swift annhilation to the enemies of Man. So shall it be for a thousand times a thousand years, unto the very end of eternity and the extinction of mortal flesh.

-Rouboute Guilliman

[Lord Tybault]

A static homeworld usually means a fortress-monestary. This raises three questions:

1. Is it on Necris or one of its moons? Is it above ground or below ground?

I'd go with above ground - no real reason to have it below and off the top of my head I can't recall a fortress-monastery that was built below. And I think we should have a cloister the sun shines upon (maybe even a special kind of sun dial in the midst of a small courtyard surroundend by an arrangement of cloisters so the time for the daily rituals can be determined by the position of the sun) or other places of contemplation. And I like the idea of big gothic windows illuminating colonnades, galleries and the like.
As for the actual location... well, I believe we have more or less already decided that it was on the planet itself. If it is a desertd eath world it could either be in the midst of the greatest desert or, rather, on top of one of the mountain ranges.

2. What is it like? What sort of facilities does it have? The emphasis on faith would imply numerous places of worship. Perhaps the arena the aspirants fight in could be a part of it.

I've answered part of this with the above. There certainly would be a number of smaller chapels (not exactly genuine to this chapter), a Grand Chapel, a central cloister complex for special events and rituals and certainly smaller colonnades/galleries/whatever for not quite so official events. The Grand Chapel would serve for the daily rituals of the whole chapter while the smaller chapels would be places for individual contemplation while off-duty.
Apart from that, it would have all the facilities usual fortress-monasteries have (see the cutaway of the Space Wolves fortress-monastery in the old "Rogue Trader" rulebook) - I think the arena shouldn't be an integral part but either outside of the preimeter or even a good distance away from it. It should definitely be a place far away from any settlements, though. But having the fortress-monastery's imposing sight looming above the arena would also be interesting.

3. What is it called? This one is sort of optional, but a name would be nice.

Now that is a difficult one... I'll have to think about it.

Also, I found this awesome quote on the back of the 4th Ed. Space Marines Codex. I think it would fit the Exemplars quite nicely.

That one should be applicable fo all chapters, but it is a nice touch to have it hold extra special meaning for the Exemplars.

[Argon]

A static homeworld usually means a fortress-monestary. This raises three questions:

1. Is it on Necris or one of its moons? Is it above ground or below ground?

I'd go with above ground - no real reason to have it below and off the top of my head I can't recall a fortress-monastery that was built below. And I think we should have a cloister the sun shines upon (maybe even a special kind of sun dial in the midst of a small courtyard surroundend by an arrangement of cloisters so the time for the daily rituals can be determined by the position of the sun) or other places of contemplation. And I like the idea of big gothic windows illuminating colonnades, galleries and the like.
As for the actual location... well, I believe we have more or less already decided that it was on the planet itself. If it is a desert death world it could either be in the midst of the greatest desert or, rather, on top of one of the mountain ranges.

There's only one officially. Being underground minimzes the damage from orbital bombardment. I was thinking above ground myself.

The sundial idea is pretty cool.

2. What is it like? What sort of facilities does it have? The emphasis on faith would imply numerous places of worship. Perhaps the arena the aspirants fight in could be a part of it.

I've answered part of this with the above. There certainly would be a number of smaller chapels (not exactly genuine to this chapter), a Grand Chapel, a central cloister complex for special events and rituals and certainly smaller colonnades/galleries/whatever for not quite so official events. The Grand Chapel would serve for the daily rituals of the whole chapter while the smaller chapels would be places for individual contemplation while off-duty.
Apart from that, it would have all the facilities usual fortress-monasteries have (see the cutaway of the Space Wolves fortress-monastery in the old "Rogue Trader" rulebook) - I think the arena shouldn't be an integral part but either outside of the preimeter or even a good distance away from it. It should definitely be a place far away from any settlements, though. But having the fortress-monastery's imposing sight looming above the arena would also be interesting.

I think each Company has their own chapel. So we could have 10 company chapels, the grand chapel, and a few smaller shrine type things.

The fortress looming above the arena idea is awesome. Away from the monestary it is then.

The shrine the recruits journey to in the first place is far away from the settlements. By the time they reach the area they're beyond the middle of nowhere.

3. What is it called? This one is sort of optional, but a name would be nice.

Now that is a difficult one... I'll have to think about it.

Well, we don't need one immediately. Heck, we could get by without one.

Also, I found this awesome quote on the back of the 4th Ed. Space Marines Codex. I think it would fit the Exemplars quite nicely.

That one should be applicable fo all chapters, but it is a nice touch to have it hold extra special meaning for the Exemplars.

It's applicable to every loyal Astartes ever, but I thought it would make for a better theme than "exemplars of purity".

[mandalorethe1st]

how about Arx Nepa for a name? its latin for fortress scorpion

[Argon]

how about Arx Nepa for a name? its latin for fortress scorpion

Erm....maybe. Scorpions aren't a very big part of the chapter's theme. Arx Something would be pretty cool though. Thank you for the inspiration.

[Lord Tybault]

Hm... Somehow I just thought of "Arx Fatalis".

But the basic idea is very sound. I'll work from there - my Latin should still be good enough to come up with something proper...

[Lord Tybault]

My vote is for "Arx Fatalis" (meaning "Fortress of Fate"). I think that fits with the character of the chapter.

[Argon]

My vote is for "Arx Fatalis" (meaning "Fortress of Fate"). I think that fits with the character of the chapter.

Eh...I don't really see how. Perhaps something like "Fortress of Devotion" or something. They don't really believe in any particular fate, do they?

Also, my sources translate "Arx" as "citadel". which I think sounds better. I used "The Citadel" as a generic name for the place when I wrote up the little bit of fluff on it.

[Lord Tybault]

Well, technically "arx" means "fortress" or "castle", but "citadel" is certainly within the same field. What I hinted at with the fate thing is that the fortress-monastery exemplifies what the chapter is about - that it's their ultimate fate to serve - and die - for the Emperor to protect humanity. But that just was an idea.

Then it's the devotion part... How about "Arx Obsequa" then? Roughly translates into "Fortress of Obedience" - "devotion" is simply the original Latin word taken over into the English language.

[Argon]

Well, technically "arx" means "fortress" or "castle", but "citadel" is certainly within the same field. What I hinted at with the fate thing is that the fortress-monastery exemplifies what the chapter is about - that it's their ultimate fate to serve - and die - for the Emperor to protect humanity. But that just was an idea.

Well, when you put it that way.....

Now I see what you're getting at. That does sound pretty good. Well, my vote goes for "Arx Fatalis", then.

[Argon]

Did a quick little writeup for the Fortress-monestary.

The chapter's fortress-monestary is the Arx Fatalis, situated high in the northern mountains, resplendant in ebony and gold amongst the bleak gray stone. A large portion of the fortress is given to places of worship, ranging from the Grand Chapel, where the entire chapter may gather before going forth to war, to the Company Chapels where battle honors and trophies are kept, to small shrines where visitors may give praise to the Emperor and others. The fortress also bears formidible defenses, with defence lasers and numerous weapons emplacements standing vigil over the barren desert.

Edited by Argon, 01 October 2010 - 10:41 PM.

[Lord Tybault]

Sounds good. Why gold and ebony, though? Maybe I should just put the various pieces of my vision into a cohesive post one of these days...

Anyway, I thought that the Exemplars didn't use very much in the way of ornamentation (at least not more than is necessary) and that their fortress-monastery essentially would be made of pretty much unadorned grey/black "stone" (or whatever they use in these days) - simple, but effective. Not a staement of opulence but rather one of might. Still, we'd need something iconic for it - maybe a giant stone/metal aquila above the main gate? There's a picture forming in my head - I'll do a quick sketch and post it later today.

EDIT: Here's a quick sketch of the main gate:



It's not quite true to scale I guess although the question is if we really need it bigger if we assume that only the aspirants pass through that gate and therefore its use would be mostly for ceremonial reasons. But this is the first draft only, so there's certainly room for imporvement.

Edited by Lord Tybault, 02 October 2010 - 04:38 PM.

[Argon]

Sounds good. Why gold and ebony, though? Maybe I should just put the various pieces of my vision into a cohesive post one of these days...

Anyway, I thought that the Exemplars didn't use very much in the way of ornamentation (at least not more than is necessary) and that their fortress-monastery essentially would be made of pretty much unadorned grey/black "stone" (or whatever they use in these days) - simple, but effective. Not a staement of opulence but rather one of might. Still, we'd need something iconic for it - maybe a giant stone/metal aquila above the main gate? There's a picture forming in my head - I'll do a quick sketch and post it later today.

EDIT: Here's a quick sketch of the main gate:



It's not quite true to scale I guess although the question is if we really need it bigger if we assume that only the aspirants pass through that gate and therefore its use would be mostly for ceremonial reasons. But this is the first draft only, so there's certainly room for imporvement.

That drawing, sir, is amazing. Kudos to you.

My personal view of fortress-monestaries (as well as a number of other things) has been heavily influenced by Dawn of War, even though I know it doesn't accurately represent them in the slightest. I was also influenced by SCC's Brazen Claws, which have a huge front door made of brass with the entire text of the Scriptorum of Brass engraved upon it.

The gold was to add a slight ornate element to the stucture. It's more or less the physical manifestation of what the chapter stands for. An image of might would probably suit the Exemplars somewhat better. We're not sons of Dorn, after all (probably, anyways.) .

[Lord Tybault]

That drawing, sir, is amazing. Kudos to you.

Been doing it for a few years now... thanks. Glad you like it. I can do much, much better, by the way. Really only a quick sketch. So should we need any artworks I can provide.

My personal view of fortress-monestaries (as well as a number of other things) has been heavily influenced by Dawn of War, even though I know it doesn't accurately represent them in the slightest. I was also influenced by SCC's Brazen Claws, which have a huge front door made of brass with the entire text of the Scriptorum of Brass engraved upon it.

That's what the middle section of ther amp is meant to represent: the Chapter Creed and the most important teachings inlaid into the stone on which the aspirants enter the fortress-monastery. And I mad an error: that is NOT the main gate, rather the outer gate. I figured that, to reach the real main gate, the aspirants would first have to go through the outer one then cross an arched bridge over a deep chasm and then reach the main gate which should/could be easily double or even triple the size of the outer gate.
DoW is all well and fine and I think it captures the nature and feel of 40K pretty well (inlcuding the architecture), but it indeed doesn't tell us that much about fortress-monasteries. In fact the only real look we get is the cutaway picture in the very ancient Rogue Trader rulebook. Technically you could simply look at the structure of a medieval monastery and were already halfway where we want to be. How we fill in the details is up to us. Maybe not brazen front doors but rather "simple" metal, but it could have engraved what we see fit to engrave in it (or otherwise decorate it with).

The gold was to add a slight ornate element to the stucture. It's more or less the physical manifestation of what the chapter stands for. An image of might would probably suit the Exemplars somewhat better. We're not sons of Dorn, after all (probably, anyways.) .

Gold is no problem - as long as we make sure it's only a little ornamentation and that not the whole structure is shining like Camelot... I use gold as well for some ornamentation on my Terminators and HQ models. Gives a nice contrast to the usually pretty simplistic and undecorated look of my models.

[Argon]

That drawing, sir, is amazing. Kudos to you.

Been doing it for a few years now... thanks. Glad you like it. I can do much, much better, by the way. Really only a quick sketch. So should we need any artworks I can provide.

It's still much better than anything I can do. I only recently figured out how to draw a skull that doesn't look cartoonish.

Let's discuss artwork later, when we've got something resembling an IA.

My personal view of fortress-monestaries (as well as a number of other things) has been heavily influenced by Dawn of War, even though I know it doesn't accurately represent them in the slightest. I was also influenced by SCC's Brazen Claws, which have a huge front door made of brass with the entire text of the Scriptorum of Brass engraved upon it.

That's what the middle section of ther amp is meant to represent: the Chapter Creed and the most important teachings inlaid into the stone on which the aspirants enter the fortress-monastery. And I mad an error: that is NOT the main gate, rather the outer gate. I figured that, to reach the real main gate, the aspirants would first have to go through the outer one then cross an arched bridge over a deep chasm and then reach the main gate which should/could be easily double or even triple the size of the outer gate.
DoW is all well and fine and I think it captures the nature and feel of 40K pretty well (inlcuding the architecture), but it indeed doesn't tell us that much about fortress-monasteries. In fact the only real look we get is the cutaway picture in the very ancient Rogue Trader rulebook. Technically you could simply look at the structure of a medieval monastery and were already halfway where we want to be. How we fill in the details is up to us. Maybe not brazen front doors but rather "simple" metal, but it could have engraved what we see fit to engrave in it (or otherwise decorate it with).

DoW is good, yes, but it makes a number of allowances in the name of improved gameplay.

Don't worry about your mistake, I could tell which gate was the main gate. It should be gigantic, not only because it looks cool but also because this is a fortress, and an ideal fortress should be nigh-impossible to get into.

Engraving the ramp with the core teachings of the chapter would be a nice touch. I like it.

I like the gigantic aquila as well. A gigantic reminder of who (and what) they serve.

Gold is no problem - as long as we make sure it's only a little ornamentation and that not the whole structure is shining like Camelot... I use gold as well for some ornamentation on my Terminators and HQ models. Gives a nice contrast to the usually pretty simplistic and undecorated look of my models.

Alright, so it's still "resplendant in ebony and gold", then?



Also, for everyone reading this: Feel free to contribute any and all ideas you might have. Lord Tybault and I can think of things on our own, but we would appreciate anything you might want to contribute. If you want to post an idea you had, expand on an idea we have, or comment and critique what writing we do have, go for it. This isn't just for people interested in the Marines Exemplar, after all. Speaking of which, I know there's people interested in the Exemplars on the forum besides us. The above text applies even more to you guys.