71 replies to this topic

[Arioch]

I really like librarians. They are my favorite "class" and the fact that they blasts the enemies of mankind with the powers of the warp is just sweet. Therefore I think it is a little sad that our own librarians (which have some awsome conceptart) have such bad rules. Worst leadership among spacemarinepsykers, can only use one power pr. turn and their powers are just....not so good. I really could think of many better and stronger powers than they have today. Even Ezekiel can only use one power pr. turn. I would like to know if there would be any interest in discussing what powers we would like to see in the next codex. Yes this is a wishlisting thread, but there does not have to be anything wrong with that, simply passing time vile sitting in the dark corners of the Rock, waiting for the sword to be reforged....

We would obviously need librarians with a leadership of 10. I was thinking powers like fear of darkness. I know the bloodangels got that one, but if any should have it it would be us the angels of darkness. We cant have the red guys stealing our darkness away from us! I dont remember what it did in the BA-dex, but if possible I think it should be a way to make the enemy take a morale test with - modifiers. Perhabs something regular, like lightning? You got to love those dark(side) powers. A new version of hellfire? (I still like the name!)

Any who would like to contribute?

[Isiah]

I don't think all Libbies should be Ld10, nor all could use more than 1 power per turn, but it's an interesting topic so I'll give it a bit more thought.

But I have a question - are you thinking new DA powers, or nicking what already exists from elsewhere. From my PoV I'd say a combination of the two as Codex:SM has some very snappy powers - we just need to 'DA' them up a bit somehow.


Edit: Bear in mind our 24" hood. That might need to go I reckon, can't see any justification for the DA to have one and other Astartes Chapters not, barring the GK of course but they are a case apart .

Anyway, shifting this to the Unforgiven Rules Deveolpment section....

Edited by Isiah, 14 June 2010 - 04:49 PM.

[brennus]

I've always liked Dark Angel psykers. Probably because I'm not the one being mind-probed by them.

Anyway, I would love it if the Dark Angel psychic powers were more subtle than a blast of energy. Our Librarians specialize in psychological manipulation. Playing with emotions, creating illusions, and turning the mind against itself - those sorts of insidious powers seem more along the lines of what our Librarians would employ.

Frying your target's synapses will kill them just as dead as electrocuting them.

[Arioch]

Well I thougth sort a combination of some old powers combined with some new. Really anything that seems plausible. Yes we would of course get the new hood, but thats rather fair with me. I´m not trying to get new good stuff and keeping the best of the old. Do the normal codex have librarians with ld 9? If not, why should we get it? Could still be an option for a cheaper libby.

Brennus:
You migth be on to somthing there, the DA being a lot about illusions and mindtricks (sorry starwars again ). I would like a few "blast" powers though, nothing like raw power of the mind.

[EPK]

Edit: Bear in mind our 24" hood. That might need to go I reckon, can't see any justification for the DA to have one and other Astartes Chapters not, barring the GK of course but they are a case apart .

You mean bear in mind our unlimited hood compared to C:SM being a range of 24 in. Yea, that's something I will be sad to see go. But you just can't justify making DA Libbys more on par with other Marine Chapters without giving us the same psychic hood....

Unless... unless it had something to do with our use of ancient weaponry. Perhaps their was a better ancient technology and the DA still have access to it. I mean, it would probably still have a range. But maybe DA get 36 in or even 48. Though it might also come at a cost.

And maybe Ezekiel himself maintains the most powerful of the ancient-tech hoods which is still unlimited range (also by his sheer power). Giving him this ancient "artificer physic hood" would be on par with giving Sammeal one of the last jet bikes.

[Brother Rathul]

I think it would be cool if librarians could do something like the eldar avatars and change into an avatar of the Emperor. Maybe just for a turn or two but you could say he was blessed by the Emperor or mind controlled for a little bit and then revert to librarian's normal self. Could have all stats increased by 2 perhaps?

Edited by Brother Rathul, 30 June 2010 - 11:11 PM.

[TyrionTheImp]

Err, transforming into an avatar of the emperor? What? That doesn't even remotely fit with Dark Angels fluff.

I like the idea of illusionary tactics and such. Demoralizing foes, causing them to attack each other. Maybe something along the lines of, target squad takes a leadership test (perhaps on a modifier?), if it's failed, half the squad takes a wound (rounded up) with armor checks etc. It could be a power that causes a squad to fight amongst itself. Forcing a squad to take negatively modified pinning check would be pretty cool too.

Of course direct blasting types of attacks would also be needed, but I think it'd be more appropriate if instead of having "buffing" powers like C:SM has, instead we had "Debuffing" powers. Nothing along the lines of that silly BA special character who lowers an IC's stats though...that's just mean.

[Arioch]

Rathul:
I trust that wasnt serious. If it is, then no

Im reading some of the powers in the dark heresy rpg book. There is quite alot. Like the veil of darkness- perhabs you could say that the psychers unit became obscured for a turn (or like nigthfigthing rules).

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

Maybe "Calling To The Watcher's" Place the large blast template in line of sight of the Librarian, all model's under the template take a STR 8 AP3 no cover save hit as the Watcher's attempt to drag them away.
Also didnt we used to have Fear Of The Darkness as a power? I think it used to be Ezekiel's special if I remember rightly.

Edit: Maybe a neat bit of wargear for them in the form of a Watcher model that you can use LOS/Range of Psychic power's from too. The same as the SW chooser of the slain.

Edited by Brother-Captain Stacius, 15 June 2010 - 09:56 PM.

[CosmicBull]

I agree with Tyrion: the DA psychic powers should be psychological "debuffs" to the enemy. I'd also like to see some psychological "buffs" to friendly units, but I don't want to trespass on the role of the Chaplain too much.

Possible names / effects:
1. Weaken Resolve - Lowers the Leadership score of an enemy unit (or all enemy units within X inches) by 1.
2. Fear of the Darkness - Force an enemy unit to make a pinning test OR all enemy units within X inches to make a fall back test. Should these tests have a negative modifier to the target's leadership?
4. Gloom - Force an enemy unit (or all enemy units within X inches) to make a leadership test (with a negative modifier to Ld); if failed, such unit(s) are subject to the Night Fight rules.
5. Precognition / Grant a friendly unit (or all friendly units within X inches) re-rolls to hit with shooting attacks and immunity to the Night Fight rules.

[Alastor]

I like the Precognition power alot, but it seems to close to Guide from codex Eldar.

[Mr.Havoc]

I agree about the DA Librarian powers being more about manipulating the mind instaed of hurling bolts of energy at people. It seems to fit more as our Librarians on a regular basis pry into the minds of anyone with info on the fallen or just to help out with interogations.

One power I would like to see or hope to see is that you pick an enemy squad, roll a leadership test, if pass nothing happens. But if fail then that unit must shoot at the closest friendly unit, pretty much being manipulated or compelled to.

[Gealgain]

My suggestion for libby psychic powers is the ability to grant his or another squad night fighting rules. Another possibly nasty power is a -ld aura from the librarian, where if two librarians use this at the same time, it nullifies the fearless USR and stacks where the auras overlap. call it "Awe of the first legion" or something like that.

My suggestion for libby psychic powers is the ability to grant his or another squad night fighting rules. Another possibly nasty power is a -ld aura from the librarian, where if two librarians use this at the same time, it nullifies the fearless USR and stacks where the auras overlap. call it "Awe of the first legion" or something like that.

[ValourousHeart]

Weaken Resolve and/or Fear the Darkness

I was thinking that there are 3 powers that these could be like.

1. similar to the IG psyker battalion power... reduce LD temporarily of 1 squad by D6. Unit is removed from play if LD brought to 0.
2. like the Soulless power the culexus assassin has... all enemy units withing X" are reduced to LD7 or by 1 if LD7 or lower.
3. like the witch hunter =I= power that permanently reduces leadership.... target IC has LD reduced by D3. test by comparing LD + D6.

We could even have all 3 powers above... which can create some nasty combos.

Applying or negating night fighting might be cool... it could work like that Necron wargear item.

[Grey Mage]

Dark Angel Psychic Powers:

1) Call of the Lion- All DAs within 12" gain the fleet USR, and bikes may run.
2) Shield of the Knighthood- one unit within 6" gets a 4++ until the begining of the next turn.
3) Wrath of the Forsaken- All enemies within 12" must take a morale test at -1 LD or fall back.
4) Sight of the Hunter- One unit within 24" cannot take cover saves this turn.
5) Faith- One unit within 24" immediately regroups regardless of any restrictions and may immediately move 2d6" towards the nearest enemy unit. They count as fearless until the begining of your next turn.
6) Storm of Wrath- Increase the AP of all weapons carried by the Librarians unit by 1.
7) Rictus- 1 Enemy unit within 12" must pass a T test of have its I reduced to 1 until the end of the turn.
8) Lions Claw- 18" S 6 AP 2, Assault 4.

[LardO'Blood]

Me wants:
Smite
Strength of Mind: All fearless units in 12 inches are no longer fearless for the remainder of the turn, if the unit is not fearless but has its leadership boosted for some reason the boost is negated for the remainder of the turn and if the unit doesn't have a boost or fearless it suffers -2 leadership for the remainder of the turn.
Lion's Roar:
S5 AP4 pinning and rending template weapon
Lightning Call:
The librarian calls down lightning from the heavens. The librarian picks a single model in an opposing squad and rolls a D6. On the roll of a 1 the power has no effect, on the power of a 2, 3 or 4 the model suffers a S8 AP2 hit. If a 5 or 6 is rolled the opposing player may select any model in the squad to take the hit. Using this power counts as firing a heavy weapon.

[con-fusion]

We talked about this loosely in the Project Unforgiven thread. I would love to see a return of some of the RT era powers... cause fear, cause confusion, rout.

Imagine something like Cause Fear or Weaken Resolve to reduce leadership, then Rout to force a ld check where failure = running away with free strikes allowed if the fleeing unit is in combat. Now that would be a 1-2 punch that works wholly on the mind of the enemy. This type of thing would also fit well with some of our proposals for Interrogator-Chaplain fear casuing effects.

On the flip side, I would also play up the fearless side of things with Stand Fast, a power that creates a zone of fearlessness around the Librarian. For example, DA units with models within a specified distance of the Librarian automatically pass all ld tests they have to take that turn.

Another neat one would be True Sight, which would allow all DA models within a secified distance of the Librarian to shoot using the Librarian's line of sight. Something like this could be particularly nasty, as a Librarian with a jump pack could easily eiminate enemy cover saves.

[Iron Lord]

Maybe convert some of the Deathwatch Dark Angel psychic powers to the tabletop?

Deathwatch has a big list of Marine psychic powers and Chapter-specific powers- some of which are versions of the standard 40K game powers.

Doing the same only in reverse (instead of converting Blood Angel powers so they can be used in the Deathwatch game, converting Deathwatch powers so they can be used in the 40K game) might allow an expanded Dark Angel powers list.

[Grand Master Neo]

Maybe convert some of the Deathwatch Dark Angel psychic powers to the tabletop?

Deathwatch has a big list of Marine psychic powers and Chapter-specific powers- some of which are versions of the standard 40K game powers.

Doing the same only in reverse (instead of converting Blood Angel powers so they can be used in the Deathwatch game, converting Deathwatch powers so they can be used in the 40K game) might allow an expanded Dark Angel powers list.

just got a copy of deathwatch a couple of days ago and i was thinking exactly the same thing. some of the powers in that book would work amazingly well in 40k

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Yes, Dark Angels should have subtle powers in keeping with their character, but remember from whence this quote originated:

"By the power given unto me by the Emperor, I shall blast your body to ashes and sear your soul to nothing."

The Dark Angels don't need to be all underhanded. Even the Eldar (sneaky inglorious coward xeno filth) have Eldritch Storm.

[Notanoob]

In order to produce a viable and balanced Psychic Powers list, we need to take a look and the 3 SM codexes released in 5th ed. Normal Codex Marines have 9 psychic powers, 1 defensive power (Force Dome), 3 Direct Damage powers (Avenger, Smite, Vortex), 2 Buffs (Might of the Ancients and Quickening), 2 debuffs (Curse of the Machine Spirit and Null Zone) and a movement buff (Gate). The Space Wolves have 7 powers, 1 Defensive (Storm Caller), 5 Direct Damage powers (Thunderclap, Living Lightning, Fury of the Wolf spirits, Murderous Hurricane and Jaws), and two debuffs (Murderous Hurricane and Tempests Wrath). Finally, the Blood Angels have 10 psychic powers, 1 defensive (Shield of Sanuguinius), 3 direct damage powers (Blood Boil, Smite from codex SM, Blood lance), 3 buffs (Might of Heroes, Unleash Rage and Sanguine Sword), 2 debuffs (Fear of Darkness, Shackle Soul), and a movement buff (Wings of Sanuguinius). As a result, we should have at least 1 defensive power (something to do with the night/Watchers in the Dark, or just Force Barrier/Dome), 3 direct damage powers (Hellfire, Smite, Mind Worm), two buffs (Lion based) and 2 debuffs (Ld based considering our theme). based on that, I've come up with the following:

Shield of Darkness: select a unit within 12" of the Librarian. That unit must be shot at using night fighting rules.
I figured that using night fighting rules made sense, but I'm not averse to just handing out a 5+ cover save like the rest, or further buffing of night fight.

Hellfire is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
Template S:2D6 (max 10) APD6 Assault 1
Just a better version of what's in our codex, replaces Avenger from SM5

Smite: as per SM5.
Bangle and SM 5, 2/3 new SM codexes. have it and we aren't as divergent as the Wolves to need our own special power.

Mind Worm: as per Mind War from Codex:Eldar
Don't think of it as stealing their power, but as buffing Mind Worm. It's not that good right now, and it makes sense that our Librarians would have a power to combat the enemy mentally, in order to break the Fallen and force a confession.

Lion’s Wrath: the Librarian or a single model within 12" of the Librarian gains +1S, +1A and impose a -1Ld penalty on their enemies in close combat for the rest of the Librarian turn.
A combination of the two similar buffs from SM5 and BA, but instead of a super S buff or super A buff, it's just a slight buff to both with an additional effect.

Lion’s Charge: at the beginning of movement phase the Librarian and his unit gain Fleet and Furious Charge.
Another buff power that I felt was appropriate.

Lion's Pride:The Librarian and the unit he is attached to become Fearless and gains Counter Attack.
A psychic power that plays to our Unyielding "Hold the line!" mentality. Not like Guard mind you.

Fear of Darkness: as per Codex: Blood Angles
It seemed like a perfect fit to me.

Weight of Judgment: as psychic shooting attack that targets a unit within 12" of the Librarian. That unit must pass an unmodified Leadership test or count as having WS and BS1 for the rest of the turn.
In the theme of Mind Worm, a psychic power that forces enemies to admit to their sins.

[Brother_Darius]

In order to produce a viable and balanced Psychic Powers list, we need to take a look and the 3 SM codexes released in 5th ed. Normal Codex Marines have 9 psychic powers, 1 defensive power (Force Dome), 3 Direct Damage powers (Avenger, Smite, Vortex), 2 Buffs (Might of the Ancients and Quickening), 2 debuffs (Curse of the Machine Spirit and Null Zone) and a movement buff (Gate). The Space Wolves have 7 powers, 1 Defensive (Storm Caller), 5 Direct Damage powers (Thunderclap, Living Lightning, Fury of the Wolf spirits, Murderous Hurricane and Jaws), and two debuffs (Murderous Hurricane and Tempests Wrath). Finally, the Blood Angels have 10 psychic powers, 1 defensive (Shield of Sanuguinius), 3 direct damage powers (Blood Boil, Smite from codex SM, Blood lance), 3 buffs (Might of Heroes, Unleash Rage and Sanguine Sword), 2 debuffs (Fear of Darkness, Shackle Soul), and a movement buff (Wings of Sanuguinius). As a result, we should have at least 1 defensive power (something to do with the night/Watchers in the Dark, or just Force Barrier/Dome), 3 direct damage powers (Hellfire, Smite, Mind Worm), two buffs (Lion based) and 2 debuffs (Ld based considering our theme). based on that, I've come up with the following:

Shield of Darkness: select a unit within 12" of the Librarian. That unit must be shot at using night fighting rules.
I figured that using night fighting rules made sense, but I'm not averse to just handing out a 5+ cover save like the rest, or further buffing of night fight.

Hellfire is a psychic shooting attack with the following profile:
Template S:2D6 (max 10) APD6 Assault 1
Just a better version of what's in our codex, replaces Avenger from SM5

Smite: as per SM5.
Bangle and SM 5, 2/3 new SM codexes. have it and we aren't as divergent as the Wolves to need our own special power.

Mind Worm: as per Mind War from Codex:Eldar
Don't think of it as stealing their power, but as buffing Mind Worm. It's not that good right now, and it makes sense that our Librarians would have a power to combat the enemy mentally, in order to break the Fallen and force a confession.

Lion’s Wrath: the Librarian or a single model within 12" of the Librarian gains +1S, +1A and impose a -1Ld penalty on their enemies in close combat for the rest of the Librarian turn.
A combination of the two similar buffs from SM5 and BA, but instead of a super S buff or super A buff, it's just a slight buff to both with an additional effect.

Lion’s Charge: at the beginning of movement phase the Librarian and his unit gain Fleet and Furious Charge.
Another buff power that I felt was appropriate.

Lion's Pride:The Librarian and the unit he is attached to become Fearless and gains Counter Attack.
A psychic power that plays to our Unyielding "Hold the line!" mentality. Not like Guard mind you.

Fear of Darkness: as per Codex: Blood Angles
It seemed like a perfect fit to me.

Weight of Judgment: as psychic shooting attack that targets a unit within 12" of the Librarian. That unit must pass an unmodified Leadership test or count as having WS and BS1 for the rest of the turn.
In the theme of Mind Worm, a psychic power that forces enemies to admit to their sins.

Looks like a very workable list. I know in the two HH books they describe the Psyer Zahariel as displaying two latent powers. One seemed like a Quicken type power. The other the Librarian Israfael called it Terrorsight and it's how he was able to beat the Beast of Endriago. I wonder if we could adapt both of those for powers as well.

[Notanoob]

Looks like a very workable list. I know in the two HH books they describe the Psyer Zahariel as displaying two latent powers. One seemed like a Quicken type power. The other the Librarian Israfael called it Terrorsight and it's how he was able to beat the Beast of Endriago. I wonder if we could adapt both of those for powers as well.

I thought of those as well, but Terror sight seemed like a very rare power to have and would be potentially overpowered.

That said, we are lacking a 'massive damage' power along the lines of Vortex of Doom, Jaws of the World Wolf, and Blood lance.

[Alastor]

We talked about this loosely in the Project Unforgiven thread. I would love to see a return of some of the RT era powers... cause fear, cause confusion, rout.

Imagine something like Cause Fear or Weaken Resolve to reduce leadership, then Rout to force a ld check where failure = running away with free strikes allowed if the fleeing unit is in combat. Now that would be a 1-2 punch that works wholly on the mind of the enemy. This type of thing would also fit well with some of our proposals for Interrogator-Chaplain fear casuing effects.

On the flip side, I would also play up the fearless side of things with Stand Fast, a power that creates a zone of fearlessness around the Librarian. For example, DA units with models within a specified distance of the Librarian automatically pass all ld tests they have to take that turn.

Another neat one would be True Sight, which would allow all DA models within a secified distance of the Librarian to shoot using the Librarian's line of sight. Something like this could be particularly nasty, as a Librarian with a jump pack could easily eiminate enemy cover saves.

I thought of another psychic power that goes along with the project unforgiven themes. I think this will tie in well with “Fear and the Fearless” and the idea of “Harass, Engage, and Destroy”.

Petrify

The Librarian projects his hatred for his enemies, causing them to cower uncontrollably in fear.

On a successful psychic test, the Librarian may make a shooting attack up to 24 inches away. Place the large template and roll for scatter. Any units under the template roll a pinning check at -2 to there leadership.

I thought of those as well, but Terror sight seemed like a very rare power to have and would be potentially overpowered

I don't think it would be over powered.

Terror Sight

The librarian slowes down time and looks apon his enemy with almost X-ray vision to see vulnerablities.

The Librarian rerolls all to hit and to wound dice. This would be great against other HQ's.

Edited by Alastor, 17 December 2010 - 06:30 PM.

[Brother Derringer]

Blinding

Target an enemy unit within 24 inches.
Fail: Life goes on.
Success: Chosen unit may not fire that turn.

Binding

Target an enemy unit within 24 inches.
Fail: Life goes on.
Success: Chosen unit may not move or assault that turn.