132 replies to this topic

[Doctor Perils]

I'm just worried Origins will be too big...in fact the whole article may end up being huge. That's before I format the headings and stuff (I was saving that for last) and get some artwork done.

 

Don't save the formatting for last, do it as you're going along, otherwise the bbcode is an absolute nightmare. If you could apply css in an easy manner that would be a different thing...

 

The thing is, the origins section has to be large enough to get the main guiding lines behind your chapter's history, and therefore its character. From your timeline, I get the impression that Draconis Umbra is probably the single most important character in the chtper's history, shaping its fighting style and culture in a way that nothing else has come close to achieving (well, when a third of the timeline bulletpoints are dedicated to him, that's what I understand), yet he isn't even mentionned in the Origins section, and the brevety of his descriptions in the timeline mean that we don't really understand who he is...

 

EDIT: I just remembered how many things you put in your timeline (I'm afraid I sort of glossed over them slightly). I'll come back on what I said earlier: don't put all of that info in the Origins. However, the Origins section does still need fleshing out. Anything to do with Draconis Umbra and earlier should be included really, as they seem to be the formative years of the chapter. Yet your origin story seems to focus on just one of thos elements, and not necessarily the most important at that...

Edited by Lord Thørn, 24 May 2016 - 01:21 PM.

[NightrawenII]

After reading the wall-o'-the-text I'm sort of confused. How can you write so much without telling anything? I'm going to echo Octavulg on this one and say:

 

"Right now, your chapter lacks any definition, theme or character which would sets it apart from the rest of brotherhood."

 

Your primary, major and foremost concern at this point should be less a IA article as a giving your Chapter some kind of theme and/or character.

 

Next.

- Keep in mind only the characters, incidents or events which have long-term influence should be mentioned in IA.

- The society of Invalice, the prime source of inspiration for Chapter's culture, is missing. Give it some thoughts.

- Why there are reptilian beasts on Invalice? *I'm asking for designer's reason.*

- Too much name-dropping or unique titles. Different title is appropriate when you want to highlight unique position or function of the holder. See Sanguinary Priest, Iron Father and Prognosticator.

 

 

~ NightrawenII

[Cpt_Reaper]

I'm going to be honest, I'm feeling quite overwhelmed. I thought I'd made a huge improvement but it looks to be actually worse.

I might just let this thread die. Sorry to all that tried to help. I just can't handle it right now.

[Doctor Perils]

I'm going to be honest, I'm feeling quite overwhelmed. I thought I'd made a huge improvement but it looks to be actually worse.

I might just let this thread die. Sorry to all that tried to help. I just can't handle it right now.

No, please don't !

[Ace Debonair]

I'm going to be honest, I'm feeling quite overwhelmed. I thought I'd made a huge improvement but it looks to be actually worse.

I might just let this thread die. Sorry to all that tried to help. I just can't handle it right now.

Don't give up, what you've got so far isn't bad at all.

Take a break if you need it, by all means, but don't give up entirely.

 

You've got a lot of detail stuff in there, such as the names and personalities of all the active Company Masters, and a detailed timeline.

Typically, Index Astartes articles don't go into quite that level of detail, but that doesn't mean those details aren't worth having.

 

If you can pick out, say, the five most important parts of the Timeline, and tell us more about them, they'd likely make a strong core for a Chapter History section. The other bits wouldn't need fleshing out as much, but could still be mentioned here and there to illustrate the Angels of Shadow's long and active history.

 

As Nightrawen says, it'd be nice to know a little more about Invalice and how it's people's culture has affected the Chapter.

What's a typical Angel of Shadow like, personality-wise? How much of his personality is similar to a typical citizen of Invalice?

 

You don't need to rush to answer these questions (especially if you really need a break right now), but if you ever come back to this Chapter, hopefully answering these questions will prove useful to you.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Added in the formatting. Hopefully I neither broke it or caused any eyes to bleed.

 

I'm rewriting the description of Invalice's geography as I now have some references for the continents. Then I'll get back to fixing all the issues.

 

I still don't know just what I want the Chapter to be. I mean I want them to be recognisable as Unforgiven but also to stand out as their own personality. They have a Deathwing and Ravening analogue but I want them to have their own things as well. I am painfully aware that path leads to Mary Sue's place...

 

On my master document I did add one thing..."Make it good enough that someone else wants to play them"

[Ace Debonair]

The formatting seems pretty OK to me, everything's showing up and seems to be in the right place and so forth.

Digging the Chapter Symbol, by the by, very nice.
 

I still don't know just what I want the Chapter to be. I mean I want them to be recognisable as Unforgiven but also to stand out as their own personality. They have a Deathwing and Ravening analogue but I want them to have their own things as well. I am painfully aware that path leads to Mary Sue's place...

What sort of 'own things' did you have in mind?
 
 

On my master document I did add one thing..."Make it good enough that someone else wants to play them"

 
Ah, now there's a sentiment I recognize from most of my stuff, too.
Seven years' work (and dozens of ideas) later and I'm no closer to realising that particular goal, so don't be too disheartened if it doesn't happen immediately!

[Cpt_Reaper]

Cod very kindly made the chapter symbol for me, as well as a command variant.

 

The "Other Thing" I speak of is a secret "11th Company" (I'd rather give it a name as it's not a Company in the traditional sense)

 

The idea for this company stems from the Angels of Absolution's idea that they aren't guilty for the actions of the fallen. Battle-Brothers who are deemed worthy of advancement into the 1st or 2nd Companies by traditional merit but found to be unfit due to an inability to cope with knowledge of the Fallen won't be killed but sent to this secret company where their skills are not wasted.

 

They are sort of a cross between Black Shields and Company Veterans. They are an ad hoc formation that has no set size but they are no longer of any Company. Whereas other Marines are very friendly to each other within the Chapter, these guys will be silent save for battlefield communication. I don't want them to appear as though they are penitent or shamed. They've done nothing wrong. They just, for one reason or another, are deemed to be unable to deal with knowledge of the Fallen at the current time. The idea is that serving in the secret Company will steel them for the knowledge.

[Cpt_Reaper]

About halfway done with Homeworld and added in the Combat Doctrine section.

 

Next stage: Finish Homeworld and start on "11th Company" (working on a name for that too).

[Cpt_Reaper]

T-t-triple post!

 

Need some help naming the formation that for the moment is the 11th Company. I want to give them a better name as it's not a company but an ad hoc force that can number many or none.

 

- Those marked for advancement into the 1st or 2nd Companies but are judged unable to deal with the knowledge of the Fallen are sent here to strengthen their resolve.

- This formation is not a dishonour, nor is it an honour

- Chaplains tend to rise up from this force

- Not permitted to speak to other battle-brothers

- Those in the force either end up being judged ready for advancement or die

- Deployed as bodyguards, garrisons or as killteams

- Will usually have a Chaplain or Librarian attached when deployed

 

Some names I've thought of are:

- The Shrouded

- The Twilight Host

- Wraiths

Any suggestions as to what else I could do with this secret "company" and maybe a name?

[Doctor Perils]

Darkwing ?

 

What is this formation's purpose? What do they do, and why do the Shadow Angels specifically need them rather then one of the other formations they already have? It sounds to me like they're supposed to be a Veteran company, but without access to higher knowledge (iirc, typical Ravenwing aren't in the Inner Circle either). But since Dark Angels and successors already have Company Veterans, I don't really know what these are supposed to do...

[Cpt_Reaper]

Let's get dangerous XD

The purpose of this formation is so that those worthy of advancement into the deathwing or ravenwing but emotionally or spiritually are unable to cope with the knowledge of the Fallen. So they are sent to this formation to strengthen their minds rather than killing and wasting the veteran's skills.

As my chapter is descended from the Angels of Absolution they have a different view of the Fallen and have no guilt concerning their actions.

[Doctor Perils]

The purpose of this formation is so that those worthy of advancement into the deathwing or ravenwing but emotionally or spiritually are unable to cope with the knowledge of the Fallen. So they are sent to this formation to strengthen their minds rather than killing and wasting the veteran's skills.

Wait, so they're not actually fighting Isn't that sort of the reason for the existence of Company Veterans: gone past the stage of being "just" space marines, but aren't quite there for the Inner Circle?

 

Plus, the Ravenwing isn't part of the Inner Circle (Black Knights, Command Squad and Sammael excluded), so a marine would have to be in a very mistrusted spot to not warrant Company Veteran or Ravenwing status. And in that case, I can't see them moving out of line soldier status, if they are even kept alive.

[Cpt_Reaper]

They'd still be fighting, but unlike the company veterans who are still very much a part of their company this lot would be of no company.

[Doctor Perils]

They'd still be fighting, but unlike the company veterans who are still very much a part of their company this lot would be of no company.

But why should they exist? For the moment, it sounds more like you want to do something different from the other DA, with no more reason then that...

 

However, there should really be a very good reason for segregating these out of the companies. As things stand they don't actually seem necessary. I won't argue that Astartes are the most pragmatic of people, but when they aren't pragmatic, it's mainly because of traditions: those traditions include following some of the frankly bizarre concepts from the Codex Astartes (recruits as scouts ), or having a Deathwing and a Ravenwing for DA successors...

 

So why do these guys have a reason to exist, considering that Company Veterans also have a very similar purpose?

[Cpt_Reaper]

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't trying to do something a little different from other Unforgiven. However ever since I started working on my chapter, way back when I called them the Shadow Guard, I've wanted a secret Company.

 

I've also entertained the idea of reviving one of the old Wings from the Legion. Specifically the Dreadwing.

 

++edit++

 

I just thought of the purpose of this secret company.

 

The Saurian Knights track the Fallen (Ravenwing)

The Blade Brethren capture the Fallen (Deathwing)

The Shadow Guard purge any witnesses.

 

It is a revival of the Dreadwing. They purge everything in the area. Also useful for counter Ork, Tyranid and Chaos tactics.

Edited by Cpt_Reaper, 29 July 2016 - 12:27 PM.

[Doctor Perils]

Ah, now that works very well I've only just discovered what the Dreadwing did, and now think it could be cool to theme a whole chapter around that, but that's another story

[Cpt_Reaper]

Finally a step forward! I'll do a preliminary write up on the Shadow Guard (name not yet finalized)

[Cpt_Reaper]

So here are my notes on the 3 Inner Circle companies. One change I made was that both the Saurian Knights and Blade Brethren have equal amounts of knowledge regarding the Fallen, with the really sensitive stuff reserved for the Black Knights, Deathwing Knights and officers.

 

Saurian Knights = Ravenwing

• Hunt down the Fallen

• bikes, speeders, aircraft

• full knowledge of the Fallen

 

Blade Brethren = Deathwing

• Capture the Fallen

• terminators, ven. Dreads

• full knowledge of the Fallen

 

Shadow Guard = Dreadwing

• Purge witnesses

• Destroyer squads

• scorched earth tactics

• use rare/lost tech

• formerly tasked with garrison duty

• changed to offensive role after chapter scism

   

[Cpt_Reaper]

Been a while since I updated this. I'd say I am exceedingly close to being finished. Just a little bit more then onto the art.

 

It's back on post #1. I'll fix formatting of the article in the next update (turns out it didn't carry over from my master document. yay  )

[Ace Debonair]

Shame about the formatting - I was just about to say it could use a little looking at, but I can see that's already a known issue.

It does make the article a bit wall-of-text looking, so it might be worth putting in a few line breaks just to space things out if you get chance.

 

 

Anyhow: having had a quick re-read of your Chapter, there's one thing that stands out to me. It's just a rough idea, so see what you think, and feel free to use as much or as little of it as you would like to:

 

So what you've got with this Chapter is a successor of the Angels of Absolution, who know no guilt for the deeds of the Fallen, who then have some of their own brothers turn traitor.

 

Surely that would be a revelatory moment for the Angels of Shadow - they now truly and fully understand, for the first time the depth of the shame and hate that their ancient ancestors in the Dark Angels of long-ago felt when the Legion divided and waged war against itself.

 

And perhaps they would then do exactly what the Dark Angels themselves once did - keep this terrible secret to themselves, away from prying eyes and all who could condemn the Angels of Shadow for the actions of those they once called Brother.

 

Hence, the need for a 'Secret Company' that not even their primogenitors know about - those tasked exclusively with hunting down and entirely destroying the Angels of Light before the threat of their heresy can affect the Angels of Shadow.

 

And thus, the Shadow Guard arises. Containing only the most trusted and pure of heart the Chapter has to offer, absolute masters in their field of war, outfitted with the most ancient and honoured gear the Chapter can offer, whose scorched-earth tactics can be relied on to completely eradicate any trace of the Angels of Light.

 

 

Like I say, it's just a thought, and you are completely free to ignore it, change bits, add bits or use it entirely as it is, it's just an idea that occurred when reading the IA.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Oh that's amazing. I'm adding this to my design document.

As for the meaning of shadow, you didn't rehash my idea for I don't think I added it. I scrapped it because I couldn't make it work. So either my memory isn't perfect or you read between the lines to fix a flawed idea.

[Ace Debonair]

Oh that's amazing. I'm adding this to my design document.

Glad I could help!
 

As for the meaning of shadow, you didn't rehash my idea for I don't think I added it. I scrapped it because I couldn't make it work. So either my memory isn't perfect or you read between the lines to fix a flawed idea.

 

Well, it's still your idea, just a slightly different take on it.

Hopefully it's of use to you!

[Cpt_Reaper]

Fixed the formatting I hope. Just updating the unfinished sections.

I'm even planning some sketches now. That's how close I am to calling this done.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Minor updates throughout, mainly to Local Rituals, Homeworld and Organisation.

 

I'd like very much to call this done and dusted, so now if there is any one section you feel needs more let me know.

 

Otherwise I'll be now working on art to complete this article. Finally.