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The Crimson Templars


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#1
Codicier Lucion

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Pointlessness.


Edited by Codicier Lucion, 13 August 2013 - 07:55 PM.


#2
Espada Azul

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Before we begin, please PLEASE refer to the Liber Astartes DIY Guide. It will save you a lot of initial grief.

Let's begin, shall we?

History and Origins:
The Space Marine Chapter of the Crimson Templars is known throughout both the history of the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Mechanicus for being a major force that has slowed the advance of the Tau Empire and Ork Waaghz! into the eastern imperial territories.
But more so of their supposed mockery towards the Machine God.


A little too bold a claim to be known throughout the 'history of the Adeptus Astartes'. Also, why would the Adeptus Mechanicus even care about them? Are they devout followers of the Machine Cult, like the Iron Hands? Do they do black-project testing of experimental tech like the Mentors? This smacks of the 'THEY'RE AWESOME DO WANT' syndrome that hits first drafts. Cool stuff does not equate to Character. Do remember that.

Naturally, the Inquisition soon took an interest in the affairs of the Templars. Inquisitors Takeda and Masyaf of the Ordo Hereticus were dispatched on an investigation to confirm, as believed, this change was due to natural events rather than true heresy. Unfortunately for the Crimson Templars Inquisitor Masyaf had a great many links with the Mechanicus himself and had inherited their devotion to the machine god.


Inquisitor Ex Machina. Refer to the DIY guide why it's a device that's frowned upon, unless you're a good enough writer to have it make sense according to the rules of the universe.

Eventually realizing that their enemy was tiring, the Tau began to gather their forces. For many years the Templars had been harrying Tau supply convoys and ambushing splinter fleets, outposts and supply stations, hindering the Tau’s every attempt to expand their empire, this was their chance to remove the threat.


The Tau, while a speedbump when compared to the juggernaut that is the Imperium's war machine, is still more than a match to a single Chapter except for the legion-strength Black Templars. The blue space commies are not pushovers, despite what of our brethren here would like.

They have been involved in numerous large scale conflicts, sometimes fighting alongside aliens,


Red flag there. Nominally a Space Marine Chapter will NOT ally with xenos, unless it's an alliance of convenience (the type where you give your ally five minutes to run before you start shooting AT THEM). You make it sound like this is a normal occurrence for your Chapter. Not good.

Technology:
One of the major ‘faults’ in the chapter is their apparent disregard for Mechanicus laws. Though they follow most Tech priest laws and make efforts to please the machine spirits of their war gear they are not above customising and developing their own variants of STC constructs to suit their tactics. These actions lead the Mechanicus to break all contact with the chapter.


Everything that follows this section pretty much falls under the 'WE HAVE UNIQUE STUFF HENCE WE'RE COOL!' syndrome (I'm guilty of this too, so I understand, but again Cool stuff =/= Character). Also, a Chapter cannot break all ties with the Mechanicus, for obvious reasons.

Those are my initial thoughts. I'll leave the senior Liberites to give more in-depth critiques.

Edited by Espada Azul, 10 July 2010 - 02:43 PM.



"Strike hard, strike swiftly, strike silently. Leave no trace of your passing but shadows, and the remains of your enemies." -- Brother-Captain Janus 'Lawin' Lawson, Azure Blades 2nd Company

#3
Codicier Lucion

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History and Origins:
The Space Marine Chapter of the Crimson Templars is known throughout both the history of the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Mechanicus for being a major force that has slowed the advance of the Tau Empire and Ork Waaghz! into the eastern imperial territories.
But more so of their supposed mockery towards the Machine God.


A little too bold a claim to be known throughout the 'history of the Adeptus Astartes'. Also, why would the Adeptus Mechanicus even care about them? Are they devout followers of the Machine Cult, like the Iron Hands? Do they do black-project testing of experimental tech like the Mentors? This smacks of the 'THEY'RE AWESOME DO WANT' syndrome that hits first drafts. Cool stuff does not equate to Character. Do remember that.


I'll see what I can do to reword that later on, though I can see what you mean by making it appear as if i'm refering to the entire history of the Space Marines.
The Mechanicus elements are explained later on.

Naturally, the Inquisition soon took an interest in the affairs of the Templars. Inquisitors Takeda and Masyaf of the Ordo Hereticus were dispatched on an investigation to confirm, as believed, this change was due to natural events rather than true heresy. Unfortunately for the Crimson Templars Inquisitor Masyaf had a great many links with the Mechanicus himself and had inherited their devotion to the machine god.


Inquisitor Ex Machina. Refer to the DIY guide why it's a device that's frowned upon, unless you're a good enough writer to have it make sense according to the rules of the universe.


Consider the situation for a few seconds: This is an Astartes chapter being suspected of possible corruption and heresy. In order to investigate such claims who else would you send? Sending the Sisters of Battle or Grey Knights would be a waste of time and resources as their job is simply to destroy heresy rather than to investigate any claims of it being present within a chapter.

I had considered the idea of the Imperium sending Interrogators or Acolytes to do this rather than full blown Inquisitors; but to my knowledge they are not usually given so important a task as directly dealing with Astartes while operating alone.
If there is another organisation who have the authority and ability to investigate the possibility of heresy within chapters or the armies of the Imperium then I’ll happily replace the Inquisitors with them.

As an after note I ought to mention that this isn’t meant to sound as if the Inquisitors are being tasked to intervene at the first signs of heresy but after persistent rumors and tales about the chapter had been going on for some time.

Eventually realizing that their enemy was tiring, the Tau began to gather their forces. For many years the Templars had been harrying Tau supply convoys and ambushing splinter fleets, outposts and supply stations, hindering the Tau’s every attempt to expand their empire, this was their chance to remove the threat.


The Tau, while a speedbump when compared to the juggernaut that is the Imperium's war machine, is still more than a match to a single Chapter except for the legion-strength Black Templars. The blue space commies are not pushovers, despite what of our brethren here would like.


Yeah I have read how the Damocles Crusade ended in a stalemate. I had intended for this to sound like part of the Tau’s advance was being slowed across a number of systems by repeated hit and run attacks by the Templars rather than the chapter fighting the entire Empire and winning.

I’ll reword this once more feedback comes in.

They have been involved in numerous large scale conflicts, sometimes fighting alongside aliens,


Red flag there. Nominally a Space Marine Chapter will NOT ally with xenos, unless it's an alliance of convenience (the type where you give your ally five minutes to run before you start shooting AT THEM). You make it sound like this is a normal occurrence for your Chapter. Not good.


Alright I’ll get rid of that part.

Technology:
One of the major ‘faults’ in the chapter is their apparent disregard for Mechanicus laws. Though they follow most Tech priest laws and make efforts to please the machine spirits of their war gear they are not above customising and developing their own variants of STC constructs to suit their tactics. These actions lead the Mechanicus to break all contact with the chapter.


Everything that follows this section pretty much falls under the 'WE HAVE UNIQUE STUFF HENCE WE'RE COOL!' syndrome (I'm guilty of this too, so I understand, but again Cool stuff =/= Character). Also, a Chapter cannot break all ties with the Mechanicus, for obvious reasons.

Those are my initial thoughts. I'll leave the senior Liberites to give more in-depth critiques.


Most of that last section was intended to be things they had simply customised for their own needs rather than creating new machines which had never been seen before within the Imperium. The Drop Pods were essentially little more than stripped down versions of the usual STC design and the tanks were mostly things which they had scavenged and rebuilt during their exile.

I was thinking largely about how the Annihilator pattern Predator tanks had come into existence when the Space Wolves refitted them for their own necessity. I simply wanted to see what would happen if similar things were done to other war machines had that idea been taken further.

Though the flying dreads were probably a step too far. I simply added that in because of plans to try and build one as a model at some point.

Anyway, thanks for the replies and input.

Edited by Codicier Lucion, 10 July 2010 - 05:19 PM.


#4
Espada Azul

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'Cool stuff' aside, there's little to your Chapter that differentiates them from, well, the Raven Guard. It's a Codex Chapter, it's Stealthy. Done. What makes it unique to, say, the Shadow Warriors, a published Liber DIY that ALSO uses stealth? What makes its case different from the Azure Blades, a resource-needy Chapter at the edge of Imperial Space that uses a mix of Codex and specialized Stealth tactics, and has a dim view of wasteful use of ammo and supplies?

It doesn't have it's own 'Character', so to speak. What are its traditions, for example? Attitudes? Outlook?

Edit: Octavulg, Ace Debonair, or Ferrata can more lucidly point out some facets of your concepts that don't quite work. Feel free to ignore my rambling, as I need to retreat to my bed.

Edited by Espada Azul, 10 July 2010 - 05:53 PM.



"Strike hard, strike swiftly, strike silently. Leave no trace of your passing but shadows, and the remains of your enemies." -- Brother-Captain Janus 'Lawin' Lawson, Azure Blades 2nd Company

#5
Shinzaren

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It soon strayed from its Codex reliant origins and started to rely even more upon guerilla tactics than its parent chapter.

It states in the most recent Codex:SM that the Raven Guard engage in frontal assaults only when absolutely necessary. How does one get more guerrilla than that?


Unfortunately for the Crimson Templars Inquisitor Masyaf had a great many links with the Mechanicus himself and had inherited their devotion to the machine god.


The Tech-Adepts are an insular and withdrawn group within the Imperium. I doubt they would count a presence as invasive, and well, inquisitive, as an Inquisitor among their followers. I find it hard to believe.

Few facts of this battle are recorded, but it is known that the event quickly escalated into a form of siege with the Tau forces withdrawing after being repelled and waited on the edge of the system. Several messages were sent via astropath to the rest of the Imperium but these were only answered with threats and insults. Along with information stating that the Crimson Templars ‘betrayal’ of humanity had been revealed by the Mechanicus and that they were now excommunicate. They had been abandoned to die at the Tau’s hands.

Several issues with this paragraph.
1.) How did the Space Marines recover from losing 2 battles barges (Which is two more than most chapters have btw.), as well as a host of other strike cruisers and support vessels? They went from getting ambushed by 20, count them, 20 capitol ships, and losing a good chunk of their fleet, to somehow driving the Tau back into a stalemate? How?
2.) Who the heck did they send the messages to in order to get this response? Mars? Almost any other Imperial force would try to respond somehow, especially brother Marines.
3.) How/when were they declared Excommunicate? This is a very major event for a chapter, and not one undertaken b/c of disagreements with the AM. To declare a chapter Excommunicate, an Inquisitor must bring defining, damning proof to the HLoT, nothing else would suffice. And since you had your Inquisitor report that they weren't heretics, this is impossible. Secondly, the Adeptus Astartes are very defensive of their brotherhood, and would rail against declaring a chapter as rogue, without the fullest proof. If they let the Inquisition declare a chapter Excommunicate with damning proof, then it would set a very very dangerous precedent.

As well as the Sisters of Battle, upon the battlefield that day was none other than Inquisitor Mira Kalovski of the Ordo Hereticus, an Inquisitor of considerable standing within her Ordo

Inquisitor Ex Machina strikes again.

It was through this meeting that the Templars proved themselves to be free of the taint of chaos and at last ended their long enforced isolation.

Yeah, one meeting alone would not be nearly sufficient to remove the Excommunicate order. Lysander underwent a year of purity tests just to return to duty; a chapter delcared as Heretics would take far longer to receive a passing grade, if at all. Not only that, but the Inquisition doesn't seem like the sorry type.

Fleet tactics are very similar to ground ones with ships making warp jumps into enemy fleets before jumping out again, attempting to get ships to follow them into an ambush.

Jumping into the Warp is an extremely dangerous and taxing ordeal on a starship, especially their Navigator. Not only that, but the odds of landing right in between the enemy fleet is unlikely, as Warp travel is incredibly dicey and unaccurate at best. Coupled with the fact that it is very easy for a Warp current or storm to hit, and blow them lightyears/decades off course, this tactic seems incredibly foolish.

During the first wave of assault forces during the attack on Drakhad by the Tau, the Strike Cruiser Lionheart made a tactical warp jump into the planet’s high atmosphere above the major assembly point of the Tau forces. As the ships hurtled down through the air it launched all drop pods and fighters before making a second jump back into orbit with a deafening thunderclap. This left the Tau open to a massive air and ground assault by the space marines.


The stresses involved with a starship forcibly entering atmosphere seem like they would rip the cruiser to pieces. Not only that, opening a warp gate in the atmosphere of a planet seems like a really bad idea. Also, Drop Pods are launched at specific angles into orbit. Launching them while speeding through the atmosphere would probably just result in a lot of dead marines, as the pods would burn up, veer wildly of course, or simply be ripped apart by the combined G-forces.

These actions lead the Mechanicus to break all contact with the chapter.

How do they submit gene-seed tithes to prove their continued loyalty and lack of corruption? How do they train Techmarines and learn to repair, build, and maintain their armor and weapons? Vehicles, ships, and armor are not going to last forever, especially under the continued stress of a life of war. Its not like building a ham radio. Decades of training is needed to learn these things. A chapter that cuts all ties with Mars is a chapter unable to make war.

Sarras class Dreadnaught-

Due to the chapter’s emphasis on fast hit and run attacks, the slow and heavily armoured standard dreadnaughts would be of little use in most long term campaigns. Any of the skills veterans’ had in life would be of little use in the mobile tomb machines.

Instead a new form of dreadnaught was constructed. This focused upon replacing almost the entire forwards and cockpit area of a Land Speeder with the upper body and main weapons systems of a Dreadnaught, linking the ancient warrior into the speeder's control system.

The machine’s main weapons systems consist of two twin linked auto cannons and a twin linked assault cannon. Additional armour has been welded to the forwards section of the hull. These are normally used to take down mass units of enemy soldiers and lightly armed vehicles.

Despite being frowned upon by both other space marine chapters and the Adeptus Mechanicus; Sarras dreadnaughts have none the less proven to be a highly dangerous and formidable opponent against those who have faced it.

That is a ridiculous amount of weight to mount on the front of a Land Speeder. Stability and balance issues aside, I dunno if the anti grav engines could even keep something heavy off the ground.

The following two designs also seem unreasonable, but I guess I'm thinking more of a play style/army list thing. Either way, I think it could use some editing.

The ideas are there, and the story seems interesting, but I think it needs some work. It did make for interesting reading though, and I enjoyed it. Look to see more on these guys as you iron out the kinks and issues.

#6
Codicier Lucion

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'Cool stuff' aside, there's little to your Chapter that differentiates them from, well, the Raven Guard. It's a Codex Chapter, it's Stealthy. Done. What makes it unique to, say, the Shadow Warriors, a published Liber DIY that ALSO uses stealth? What makes its case different from the Azure Blades, a resource-needy Chapter at the edge of Imperial Space that uses a mix of Codex and specialized Stealth tactics, and has a dim view of wasteful use of ammo and supplies?

It doesn't have it's own 'Character', so to speak. What are its traditions, for example? Attitudes? Outlook?

Edit: Octavulg, Ace Debonair, or Ferrata can more lucidly point out some facets of your concepts that don't quite work. Feel free to ignore my rambling, as I need to retreat to my bed.


Alright a change of origin should be used then. I'll probably switch to Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, someone who would have a shift in tactics make more impact.

Secondly what differentiates them is the events they have gone through in the past few hundred years. The changes they have gone through in order to survive. The sudden shift from having a base of operations, a strong fleet and a direct source of recruits to a handful of damaged and scattered ships attempting to run and hide from most the Imperium as much as their enemies. Having to scavenge any and all equipment they could as they could neither replace vehicles nor most of the weapons they used.
Or how about the fact they were kicked out of the Imperium and were let back in?
Are you telling me that both of those examples had all of those features and nothing unique has been written down here?

Also, if you are going to use this as advice please don't use this as an excuse to show off and point out you have done this concept all before. Up until a few hours ago I had not even heard of the Azure Blades.

#7
Shinzaren

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I'll probably switch to Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, someone who would have a shift in tactics make more impact.


I like this idea, but I am biased... :lol:

#8
Forgefather Vulkan

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I think you need to add some more 'unique-ness' to your idea as it does Seem like you've slapped some new colours on the RG as I know them well as I play then.... Perhaps you should read up on RG if you haven't and then you can make them similar but not too similar...

Hope this helps

Forgefather

#9
Espada Azul

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Not showing off at all. If anything, I'd like you to NOT repeat my mistakes -- and there are many, as you'll see in a bit. :lol:


"Strike hard, strike swiftly, strike silently. Leave no trace of your passing but shadows, and the remains of your enemies." -- Brother-Captain Janus 'Lawin' Lawson, Azure Blades 2nd Company

#10
Codicier Lucion

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It soon strayed from its Codex reliant origins and started to rely even more upon guerilla tactics than its parent chapter.

It states in the most recent Codex:SM that the Raven Guard engage in frontal assaults only when absolutely necessary. How does one get more guerrilla than that?


I’m going to change their origin as soon as I get the chance, but tell me; what chapter doesn’t perform frontal assaults unless it is only necessary?
To my knowledge the Codex doesn’t advise Marines to charge head on and assault enemy positions without looking for any immediate alternatives.

Unfortunately for the Crimson Templars Inquisitor Masyaf had a great many links with the Mechanicus himself and had inherited their devotion to the machine god.


The Tech-Adepts are an insular and withdrawn group within the Imperium. I doubt they would count a presence as invasive, and well, inquisitive, as an Inquisitor among their followers. I find it hard to believe.


So, not one single Tech Priest in any of the thousands of Forge Worlds across the Imperium would think that having an Inquisitor who shared their beliefs might give them some advantage to their political position.
I would have thought it might occur to them that having a Inquisitor loyal to the Machine God, and most likely passing on such beliefs to his Interrogators, might give them some advantage in the future.

Few facts of this battle are recorded, but it is known that the event quickly escalated into a form of siege with the Tau forces withdrawing after being repelled and waited on the edge of the system. Several messages were sent via astropath to the rest of the Imperium but these were only answered with threats and insults. Along with information stating that the Crimson Templars ‘betrayal’ of humanity had been revealed by the Mechanicus and that they were now excommunicate. They had been abandoned to die at the Tau’s hands.

Several issues with this paragraph.
1.) How did the Space Marines recover from losing 2 battles barges (Which is two more than most chapters have btw.), as well as a host of other strike cruisers and support vessels? They went from getting ambushed by 20, count them, 20 capitol ships, and losing a good chunk of their fleet, to somehow driving the Tau back into a stalemate? How?


I agree I should probably downsize the fleet, but how much detail should I go into in recording the events of the battle?

2.) Who the heck did they send the messages to in order to get this response? Mars? Almost any other Imperial force would try to respond somehow, especially brother Marines.

The reason I didn’t name the location in which the message was sent is that it probably wouldn’t mean anything to the reader and would never be brought up again.
Though I should invent some reason they didn’t try to contact other Astartes or Imperial Forces to make this more plausible.

3.) How/when were they declared Excommunicate? This is a very major event for a chapter, and not one undertaken b/c of disagreements with the AM. To declare a chapter Excommunicate, an Inquisitor must bring defining, damning proof to the HLoT, nothing else would suffice. And since you had your Inquisitor report that they weren't heretics, this is impossible. Secondly, the Adeptus Astartes are very defensive of their brotherhood, and would rail against declaring a chapter as rogue, without the fullest proof. If they let the Inquisition declare a chapter Excommunicate with damning proof, then it would set a very very dangerous precedent.


Wait, what? When did I state that the Inquisitor reported they weren’t heretics?
More to the point this seems to go against a great deal of what was mentioned about many now Renegade chapters. The Sons of Malice for example were declared excommunicate because one Inquisitor stated they were cannibals and they were dealt with very quickly.
And I cannot recall any fluff pointing out where other Marines have previously railed against the declaration of a Chapter going rogue.

As well as the Sisters of Battle, upon the battlefield that day was none other than Inquisitor Mira Kalovski of the Ordo Hereticus, an Inquisitor of considerable standing within her Ordo

Inquisitor Ex Machina strikes again.


Alternatives?

It was through this meeting that the Templars proved themselves to be free of the taint of chaos and at last ended their long enforced isolation.

Yeah, one meeting alone would not be nearly sufficient to remove the Excommunicate order. Lysander underwent a year of purity tests just to return to duty; a chapter delcared as Heretics would take far longer to receive a passing grade, if at all. Not only that, but the Inquisition doesn't seem like the sorry type.


Alright, I’ll extend this and add they are still under the scrutiny of the Inquisition even after returning to the Inquisition and that is did not take a single event to prove their purity.

Fleet tactics are very similar to ground ones with ships making warp jumps into enemy fleets before jumping out again, attempting to get ships to follow them into an ambush.

Jumping into the Warp is an extremely dangerous and taxing ordeal on a starship, especially their Navigator. Not only that, but the odds of landing right in between the enemy fleet is unlikely, as Warp travel is incredibly dicey and unaccurate at best. Coupled with the fact that it is very easy for a Warp current or storm to hit, and blow them lightyears/decades off course, this tactic seems incredibly foolish.


I never intended for this mean that the ships drop out of warp, fire a number of shots and then instantly return to the warp again. There would have been some time before they retreated and they would most likely want to inflict some notable damage and confirm it before they retreated.

During the first wave of assault forces during the attack on Drakhad by the Tau, the Strike Cruiser Lionheart made a tactical warp jump into the planet’s high atmosphere above the major assembly point of the Tau forces. As the ships hurtled down through the air it launched all drop pods and fighters before making a second jump back into orbit with a deafening thunderclap. This left the Tau open to a massive air and ground assault by the space marines.


The stresses involved with a starship forcibly entering atmosphere seem like they would rip the cruiser to pieces. Not only that, opening a warp gate in the atmosphere of a planet seems like a really bad idea. Also, Drop Pods are launched at specific angles into orbit. Launching them while speeding through the atmosphere would probably just result in a lot of dead marines, as the pods would burn up, veer wildly of course, or simply be ripped apart by the combined G-forces.


I’ll get rid of the drop pods part then and stick with aircraft such as the Thunderhawks instead.
Also, where is it pointed out that Strike Cruisers can be torn apart so easily when they are designed to survive massed bombardments and strikes from building sized shells, torpedoes and even some bigger weapons such as nova cannons?

These actions lead the Mechanicus to break all contact with the chapter.

How do they submit gene-seed tithes to prove their continued loyalty and lack of corruption? How do they train Techmarines and learn to repair, build, and maintain their armor and weapons? Vehicles, ships, and armor are not going to last forever, especially under the continued stress of a life of war. Its not like building a ham radio. Decades of training is needed to learn these things. A chapter that cuts all ties with Mars is a chapter unable to make war.


I’ll change that to almost all then, and invent some reason as to how the Mechanicus are keeping some contacts with the chapter. And add the slight reminder of how the vehicles and ships might continue to survive taking into account the several hundred years of scavenging, scrounging and looting the required supplies.

Sarras class Dreadnaught-

Due to the chapter’s emphasis on fast hit and run attacks, the slow and heavily armoured standard dreadnaughts would be of little use in most long term campaigns. Any of the skills veterans’ had in life would be of little use in the mobile tomb machines.

Instead a new form of dreadnaught was constructed. This focused upon replacing almost the entire forwards and cockpit area of a Land Speeder with the upper body and main weapons systems of a Dreadnaught, linking the ancient warrior into the speeder's control system.

The machine’s main weapons systems consist of two twin linked auto cannons and a twin linked assault cannon. Additional armour has been welded to the forwards section of the hull. These are normally used to take down mass units of enemy soldiers and lightly armed vehicles.

Despite being frowned upon by both other space marine chapters and the Adeptus Mechanicus; Sarras dreadnaughts have none the less proven to be a highly dangerous and formidable opponent against those who have faced it.

That is a ridiculous amount of weight to mount on the front of a Land Speeder. Stability and balance issues aside, I dunno if the anti grav engines could even keep something heavy off the ground.

The following two designs also seem unreasonable, but I guess I'm thinking more of a play style/army list thing. Either way, I think it could use some editing.




Most of that last section was intended to be things they had simply customised for their own needs rather than creating new machines which had never been seen before within the Imperium. The Drop Pods were essentially little more than stripped down versions of the usual STC design and the tanks were mostly things which they had scavenged and rebuilt during their exile.

I was thinking largely about how the Annihilator pattern Predator tanks had come into existence when the Space Wolves refitted them for their own necessity. I simply wanted to see what would happen if similar things were done to other war machines had that idea been taken further.

Though the flying dreads were probably a step too far. I simply added that in because of plans to try and build one as a model at some point.


Anyway, I’ll take these other points into account for the next rewrite.

Edited by Codicier Lucion, 10 July 2010 - 06:59 PM.


#11
Espada Azul

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I’m going to change their origin as soon as I get the chance, but tell me; what chapter doesn’t perform frontal assaults unless it is only necessary? To my knowledge they Codex don’t advise Marines to charge head on and assault enemy positions without looking for any immediate alternatives.


There are different levels of so-called Codex Adherence though. Compare what we know of the Minotaurs, and the Ultramarines -- the former will definitely charge head-first into an assault, while the latter with certainly look for a better alternative.


So, not one single Tech Priest in any of the thousands of Forge Worlds across the Imperium would think that having an Inquisitor who shared their beliefs might give them some advantage to their political position. I would have thought it might occur to them that having a Inquisitor loyal to the Machine God, and most likely passing on such beliefs to his Interrogators, might give them some advantage in the future.


That's the thing though, you're assuming that an Inquisitor would somehow be privy or even share the beliefs of a member of the Machine Cult, who in various books have been shown to be incredibly insular or at best distant from the other bodies of the Imperium's bureaucracy. I mean, they speak Binary, for Haruhi's sake, a language not even the Inquisition has cracked.


I agree I should probably downsize the fleet, but how much detail should I go into in recording the events of the battle?


Simple, the Chapter fleet suffered horrendous losses, and was forced to withdraw to conserve the ships they had left. It doesn't even have to be a victory, and a defeat will do well to feed animosity towards the Tau.


And I cannot recall any fluff pointing out where other Marines have previously railed against the declaration of a Chapter going rogue.


This is true. Astartes Chapters are mostly independent, and rarely poke their noses into the affairs of other Chapters. They may take umbrage if the Inquisitor in question was particularly bellicose in his or her pursuit of the matter of excommunication of another Chapter (as it impinges on that same independence), but that's it.


Alternatives?


Don't have the Inquisition bail them out. Simple. Have the Chapter fight their own way out of the mess they got into.


Alright, I’ll extend this and add they are still under the scrutiny of the Inquisition even after returning to the Inquisition and that is did not take a single event to prove their purity.


A hundred-year penitent Crusade, at least. It's what the Mantis Warriors and Lamenters were forced to do in the aftermath of the Badab War.


I never intended for this mean that the ships drop out of warp, fire a number of shots and then instantly return to the warp again. There would have been some time before they retreated and they would most likely want to inflict some notable damage and confirm it before they retreated.


Battlefleet Gothic is your friend when it comes to situations like this. The maneuver you described is incredibly dangerous, and frankly wouldn't be worth the risk of even a single Strike Cruiser. Also jumping close to a planet's gravity well = bad idea. In fact, it's mentioned in the Rynn's World book that only Orks would be so FOOLISH to do so, as once a ship is ensnared by a planet, there's no way for it to break free.


Also, where is it pointed out that Strike Cruisers can be torn apart so easily when they are designed to survive massed bombardments and strikes from building sized shells, torpedoes and even some bigger weapons such as nova cannons?


I doubt a Thunderhawk can survive a direct hit by a nova cannon, which I might add is used by Capital Ships to kill OTHER Capital Ships. A Thunderhawk is durable enough to re-enter atmosphere, true, but tanking something more powerful than a lascannon? It's going to go down.


"Strike hard, strike swiftly, strike silently. Leave no trace of your passing but shadows, and the remains of your enemies." -- Brother-Captain Janus 'Lawin' Lawson, Azure Blades 2nd Company

#12
Codicier Lucion

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So, not one single Tech Priest in any of the thousands of Forge Worlds across the Imperium would think that having an Inquisitor who shared their beliefs might give them some advantage to their political position. I would have thought it might occur to them that having a Inquisitor loyal to the Machine God, and most likely passing on such beliefs to his Interrogators, might give them some advantage in the future.


That's the thing though, you're assuming that an Inquisitor would somehow be privy or even share the beliefs of a member of the Machine Cult, who in various books have been shown to be incredibly insular or at best distant from the other bodies of the Imperium's bureaucracy. I mean, they speak Binary, for Haruhi's sake, a language not even the Inquisition has cracked.


Very well, i'll make him a chaos follower instead. A puritan who has turned secretly to more and more radical views over time.
Less original that the Mechanicus version but less flaws.

Alternatives?


Don't have the Inquisition bail them out. Simple. Have the Chapter fight their own way out of the mess they got into.


Understood i'll change the outcome of that battle so most of the Templars were forced to surrender instead of it being the presence of an inquisitor.

Alright, I’ll extend this and add they are still under the scrutiny of the Inquisition even after returning to the Inquisition and that is did not take a single event to prove their purity.


A hundred-year penitent Crusade, at least. It's what the Mantis Warriors and Lamenters were forced to do in the aftermath of the Badab War.


Seems reasonable enough.

I never intended for this mean that the ships drop out of warp, fire a number of shots and then instantly return to the warp again. There would have been some time before they retreated and they would most likely want to inflict some notable damage and confirm it before they retreated.


Battlefleet Gothic is your friend when it comes to situations like this. The maneuver you described is incredibly dangerous, and frankly wouldn't be worth the risk of even a single Strike Cruiser. Also jumping close to a planet's gravity well = bad idea. In fact, it's mentioned in the Rynn's World book that only Orks would be so FOOLISH to do so, as once a ship is ensnared by a planet, there's no way for it to break free.


I'll list it as a tactic which they have used far more times than they would like (three or four times) over the past several hundred years, more out of necessity or desperation than actual choice.

Also, where is it pointed out that Strike Cruisers can be torn apart so easily when they are designed to survive massed bombardments and strikes from building sized shells, torpedoes and even some bigger weapons such as nova cannons?


I doubt a Thunderhawk can survive a direct hit by a nova cannon, which I might add is used by Capital Ships to kill OTHER Capital Ships.
A Thunderhawk is durable enough to re-enter atmosphere, true, but tanking something more powerful than a lascannon? It's going to go down.


And if it avoided the vast bulk of the atmosphere entirely?

#13
Shinzaren

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I’m going to change their origin as soon as I get the chance, but tell me; what chapter doesn’t perform frontal assaults unless it is only necessary? To my knowledge they Codex don’t advise Marines to charge head on and assault enemy positions without looking for any immediate alternatives

The Imperial Fists are known for their preference of engaging the enemy head on, as do their successors. The Raven Guard do not. Both follow the Codex, but few it differently.

“Do not ask me to approach the battle meekly, to creep through the shadows, or to quietly slip on my foes in the dark. I am Rogal Dorn, Imperial Fist, Space Marine, Emperor’s Champion. Let my enemies cower at my advance and tremble at the sight of me.”
-Rogal Dorn

This quote alone shows the difference in styles. Now do you see what I mean? Head on assaults are used by many chapters. In truth, the stealthyness of the Raven Guard is in the vast minority. And in that minority, they are the best at what they do, because they've been doing it the longest, and they were trained by the best, Corax himself. There is no reason your chapter can't be as good, or close to it, but saying they are more guerrilla seems a little too much.

Wait, what? When did I state that the Inquisitor reported they weren’t heretics?

to which I read

Though he was not able to report any real heresy to his Ordos, he soon reported the truth of the chapter’s blatant insults to the Machines God to several nearby forge worlds.

Which says to me that he didn't have the proof necessary to get his masters in the Inquisition to declare them Excommunicate.

More to the point this seems to go against a great deal of what was mentioned about many now Renegade chapters. The Sons of Malice for example were declared excommunicate because one Inquisitor stated they were cannibals and they were dealt with very quickly. And I cannot recall any fluff pointing out where other Marines have previously railed against the declaration of a Chapter going rogue.

Gah, I apologize Codicer, I had thought I read in the DIY Guide article. However, I went back and reread it. On further study, I misunderstood the wording of the section. So no, the other chapters might not defend you, and instead would most likely remain neutral.

I’ll get rid of the drop pods part then and stick with aircraft such as the Thunderhawks instead.
Also, where is it pointed out that Strike Cruisers can be torn apart so easily when they are designed to survive massed bombardments and strikes from building sized shells, torpedoes and even some bigger weapons such as nova cannons?

The stresses involved entering a planet's gravity well at high velocity are quite different from those involved in getting shot. We're talking thousands of Gees, twisting, sheering, stretching, and basically pulling apart the entire ship. While it may not cause complete destruction, it would certainly cause serious damage. When a Thunderhawk enters the atmosphere of a planet, it does so in a controlled descent at a controlled speed. The image I am seeing for your Strike Cruiser's entry is not that. I'm getting a picture of a ship in motion, hurling through space. They make a warp jump, which doesn't reduce this speed, simply changes its direction; into the atmosphere. Now instead of hurling through the airless, gravity-void of space, where there is no friction or gravity; they are hurling a city sized ship through the atmosphere. This is where I feel like things would start to go horribly wrong. Its not a controlled descent at all. You basically launched them into the atmosphere at high velocity, then ripped them back out through the warp. Does that explain my skepticism? If that is the wrong idea, then I apologize. That is simply how it read to me, and how I understood it. Because of this, risking a Strike Cruiser, who's value to a Chapter is extremely high, just to drop a few Thunderhawks seems like a very very poor decision.


If I misunderstood or misread anything I apologize, I was simply expressing my thoughts as I read your article. It wasn't meant to be insulting, I was just pointing out areas that did not seem especially feasible to me.

#14
Espada Azul

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Very well, i'll make him a chaos follower instead. A puritan who has turned secretly to more and more radical views over time. Less original that the Mechanicus version but less flaws.


Also more likely to happen in the context of the setting.

And if it avoided the vast bulk of the atmosphere entirely?


Then it's doing what a Strike Cruiser is supposed to do, which is to transport its troops for planetary deployment, and not crashing and burning as it enters the gravity well. If there's anything that the Imperium doesn't have, it's a way to make sure its capital ships can safely re-enter the atmosphere, like the Minovsky Drives of the carriers in Mobile Suit Gundam.

Edited by Espada Azul, 11 July 2010 - 01:14 AM.



"Strike hard, strike swiftly, strike silently. Leave no trace of your passing but shadows, and the remains of your enemies." -- Brother-Captain Janus 'Lawin' Lawson, Azure Blades 2nd Company

#15
Shinzaren

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Then it's doing what a Strike Cruiser is supposed to do, which is to transport its troops for planetary deployment, and not crashing and burning as it enters the gravity well. If there's anything that the Imperium doesn't have, it's a way to make sure its capital ships can safely re-enter the atmosphere, like the Minovsky Drives of the carriers in Mobile Suit Gundam.


That's what it was called! I was trying to think of the drive let the carriers reenter atmo. I just finished watching all of Gundam00 though, so i was stuck on GN drives, which I knew wasn't what I wanted.

This divergence from discussion aside, I feel like I should point out that amidst all my negative comments, I forgot to mention that I really liked the Color Scheme, especially given their... "disagreements?" with Mars. It makes me think of a TechMarine, then as you read your chapter it seems almost like a mocking, play on the Mechanicus, which I thought was cool. Don't know if it was intentional or not, but I liked it.

#16
Codicier Lucion

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A quick question here while i'm rewriting: how does the community here regard null space marines (untouchables)?

I'm not denying they'd be incredibly rare, perhaps only five or so being found during the chapter's history, but i'm just interested to know how people would react to them replacing Librarians within the Templars.

#17
Sigismund Himself

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A quick question here while i'm rewriting: how does the community here regard null space marines (untouchables)?

I'm not denying they'd be incredibly rare, perhaps only five or so being found during the chapter's history, but i'm just interested to know how people would react to them replacing Librarians within the Templars.

Well, there's the rarity of nulls. And then there's the rarity of possessing the right physical, mental and genetic standard to become an Astartes. Then throw in the Culexus Temple of the Officio Assassinorum recruiting the same people. As you can see, this odds are literally huge. I would have maybe only one or two at the most during the chapter's history :D

#18
Codicier Lucion

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A quick question here while i'm rewriting: how does the community here regard null space marines (untouchables)?

I'm not denying they'd be incredibly rare, perhaps only five or so being found during the chapter's history, but i'm just interested to know how people would react to them replacing Librarians within the Templars.

Well, there's the rarity of nulls. And then there's the rarity of possessing the right physical, mental and genetic standard to become an Astartes. Then throw in the Culexus Temple of the Officio Assassinorum recruiting the same people. As you can see, this odds are literally huge. I would have maybe only one or two at the most during the chapter's history :D


That's more or less what I had planned to have in the chapter's background, but I just wanted to check that there were no problems with the genetics of having an untouchable as a space marine.

#19
CKO

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I like the idea of a chapter being excommunicated then re-estabilishing themselves. They can help Imperial Worlds without much notice because they use guerilla like tactics, hitting and vanishing.

The battle scene, a battle barge can hold around 4 companies and you have 3 of them that means your chapter has enough ships for 12 companies not including cruisers which can hold around 1 each. You also managed to hold off the tau after they destroyed 2 out of 3 barges! The way that attack would go if you knew that the tau destroyed 2 of 3 barges.

1.The tau entered the system destroyed most of your fleet
2.They made planet fall within a few hours and overwhelmed your monastery.

It is a loss dont try to make it seem like it was a loss that could have been a win. Make it a complete loss your surving ships were able to get away, preparing themselves for a counter-attack but when they got word that the Imperium were not sending in reinforcements they had to take a major loss. A loss of this magnitude could alter your chapter in any way that you wish but it makes it more believable.

The adeptus mechanicus are not insulted when others trying new stuff example my fellow Dornians were able to make the LandRaider Crusader, they are in rage when you have something that they want such as the stc that the blood angels refuse to hand over. However even then the relationship is sem-bad at worst as they must work together, I have been trying to think of an possible example which would mean the type of relationship between chapter and mechanicus that you are going for and I cant think of one. The best I could come up with was that your chapter found some weird tau weapon and was using it as relic to represent a campaign in which several marines died that the mechanicus wants. The templar refuses to give it up, when the tau launch their big attack the mechanicus informs the chapter that they can either hand over the artifact or there might be a good chance that their request for aid would not be heard, or something like that but thats still a stretch.

Everything else is pretty decent except for some of the weapons your chapter designed dreadspeeder ;) , but the hardest part is finding a suitable reason to leave and a suitable reason to earn their way back into the imperium, I hope this helps cant wait to see what you come up with.

#20
Codicier Lucion

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The battle scene, a battle barge can hold around 4 companies and you have 3 of them that means your chapter has enough ships for 12 companies not including cruisers which can hold around 1 each.



As tempted as I am to have a chapter with more than twelve hundred marines as a part of it your point is seen. I’m going to limit it down to one Battle Barge and very few Strike Cruisers, using large number of frigates for rapid deployment and withdrawal of troops from the nearby systems.

You also managed to hold off the tau after they destroyed 2 out of 3 barges! The way that attack would go if you knew that the tau destroyed 2 of 3 barges.

1.The tau entered the system destroyed most of your fleet
2.They made planet fall within a few hours and overwhelmed your monastery.

It is a loss dont try to make it seem like it was a loss that could have been a win. Make it a complete loss your surving ships were able to get away, preparing themselves for a counter-attack but when they got word that the Imperium were not sending in reinforcements they had to take a major loss. A loss of this magnitude could alter your chapter in any way that you wish but it makes it more believable.



I have something of a plan for this and while it does involve downsizing the Tau fleet for aforementioned reasons it also involves the Imperial Navy to turn the battle into more of a crushing defeat than before.

The adeptus mechanicus are not insulted when others trying new stuff example my fellow Dornians were able to make the LandRaider Crusader, they are in rage when you have something that they want such as the stc that the blood angels refuse to hand over. However even then the relationship is sem-bad at worst as they must work together, I have been trying to think of an possible example which would mean the type of relationship between chapter and mechanicus that you are going for and I cant think of one. The best I could come up with was that your chapter found some weird tau weapon and was using it as relic to represent a campaign in which several marines died that the mechanicus wants. The templar refuses to give it up, when the tau launch their big attack the mechanicus informs the chapter that they can either hand over the artifact or there might be a good chance that their request for aid would not be heard, or something like that but thats still a stretch.



That’s probably a plan I will actually use then. But to re-enforce my previous point of the Mechanicus’ reaction these are the same sort of people who are noted to have demanded Imperial Guard Chimera drivers be sent on high risk missions for jury rigging an engine in order to keep it working.
Also, the examples listed above (yours and mine) are single infractions from major Space Marine Chapters. What the Templars do is repeatedly do this and they have no right to any leeway being a minor Chapter by comparison.

Everything else is pretty decent except for some of the weapons your chapter designed dreadspeeder huh.gif , but the hardest part is finding a suitable reason to leave and a suitable reason to earn their way back into the imperium, I hope this helps cant wait to see what you come up with.



As noted twice before the Dread was something I threw in because it was something I had always planned to galvanize as a model, in the recent update its been removed and replaced with a couple of more ‘reasonable’ things.
And finally the planned reasons for earning their way back into the Imperium is a mixture of the events listed above. Helping to save a Shrine World, discovering that said Inquisitor began acting very suspiciously after the chapter being excommunicated as well as being apparently involved with a Chaos uprising and being sent on a several century long penitence crusade.

Also, there should be an update on the major changes to the chapter’s background soon. Though I get the feeling it will need to be shortened before this is over.

Thanks for your suggestions and comments

Edited by Codicier Lucion, 13 August 2013 - 07:56 PM.


#21
CKO

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You should change the title description, update the information on the first page, and give a brief summary stating that you have made some changes that way you can get more readers.

It has definitely gotten better but you skipped the excommunicated part in the revision or maybe I am reading it wrong.

#22
Shinzaren

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Your Origins section is 4000 words long. Just the Origins section. Its a task to muscle through that all. You're going into too much detail on their battles. Also, the grammar, and sentence structure make it a difficult read. I approve of all the changes though, much more believable, and easy to get immersed in. I especially like the idea of them pretending to be other chapters, very clever and heretical. Very cool. I'll do a more in depth paragraph by paragraph analysis tomorrow, it's too big and long for me to attempt tonight haha. Over all though, I like the changes a lot.

#23
Espada Azul

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I've done worse myself in terms of word-length (as Octavulg would like to remind us), built bit by bit over the course of two years, but sometimes it's how a segment is written rather than how long it is that makes or break an article for a reader. And the history section, right now, reads like a clunky Ork contraption than a well-oiled Astartes war machine.

A good target would be about 3000 to 5000-odd words for the whole article. As Shinzaren already pointed out, your History section is pretty much 80% of the higher end of 'standardized' IA limits.


"Strike hard, strike swiftly, strike silently. Leave no trace of your passing but shadows, and the remains of your enemies." -- Brother-Captain Janus 'Lawin' Lawson, Azure Blades 2nd Company

#24
Codicier Lucion

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You should change the title description, update the information on the first page, and give a brief summary stating that you have made some changes that way you can get more readers.

It has definitely gotten better but you skipped the excommunicated part in the revision or maybe I am reading it wrong.


That's rather a major part so i'm not going to skip that. I just stopped once the Inquisitor was introduced as I was more interested in people's feedback on the increased background.

Your Origins section is 4000 words long. Just the Origins section. Its a task to muscle through that all. You're going into too much detail on their battles. Also, the grammar, and sentence structure make it a difficult read. I approve of all the changes though, much more believable, and easy to get immersed in. I especially like the idea of them pretending to be other chapters, very clever and heretical. Very cool. I'll do a more in depth paragraph by paragraph analysis tomorrow, it's too big and long for me to attempt tonight haha. Over all though, I like the changes a lot.


The battles will mostly be broken off into the 'side boxes' used to give information at a later date. I've not had a chance to look at the format which allows for it to be made yet.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by grammar and sentence structure so i'll wait until.

And thanks for the feedback on the idea of pretending to be other chapters; I was getting the feeling I was going to be lynched as soon as people read that part.

I've done worse myself in terms of word-length (as Octavulg would like to remind us), built bit by bit over the course of two years, but sometimes it's how a segment is written rather than how long it is that makes or break an article for a reader. And the history section, right now, reads like a clunky Ork contraption than a well-oiled Astartes war machine.

A good target would be about 3000 to 5000-odd words for the whole article. As Shinzaren already pointed out, your History section is pretty much 80% of the higher end of 'standardized' IA limits.


So it needs to be shortened and divided into more sections?

#25
Shinzaren

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What it needs is to be carefully gone over, fixing spelling mistakes, punctuation, grammar, and sentence structure. That would make a HUGE difference on ease of reading. It also needs to cut about 2500 words in my opinion.

Here is an example:

The isolated status of the Drakhad’s system, bearing only a single planet, left it ignored by outsiders. The few who did come across it often ignoring it due to its lack of resources or, in the case of the Orks, apparent lack of enemies to fight. The only recorded invasion into the world prior to the Templars’ arrival was by Governor Ishicus Beladar during 700.M35. Seeking to turn the planet as a mass storage facility for use in times of war a small force was mustered from the Batarian system under Beladar’s control.
Fifty regiments of Batarian Home Guard were sent to secure several hundred kilometers of land as a landing zone and base of operations for the invasion force. These regiments reported initial successes in driving back the local savages then fell out of contact entirely. The forces sent to discover their fate similarly were never heard from again, though the fate of the regiments is clear from the amount of Imperial Guard equipment used by the tribes of that area.



The isolated status of the Drakhad's system, and the fact that it bore only single planet, meant it was ignored by outsiders. The only recorded invasion of the world, prior to the Templar's arrival, was by Governor Ishicus Beladar during 700.M35. He sought to turn the planet into a mass storage facility, and so a small force was mustered from the Batarian system under Beladar's control. Fifty regiments of Batarian Home Guard were sent to secure a landing zone. These regiments reported initial successes in driving back the local savages; then fell out of contact entirely. Instead of risking more men to look for survivors, Belador decided the barren rock wasn't worth the trouble, and abandoned plans for his storage facility, returning to Bataria.

And thanks for the feedback on the idea of pretending to be other chapters; I was getting the feeling I was going to be lynched as soon as people read that part.


You probably will be haha, but I liked it. I dunno how many fellow Liberites will share that view though.