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Black Templars, still competitive?


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#1
Balian

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Hail brothers!

Brother Balian here. Forgive my absence, I have been on a personal crusade for several years now, (otherwise known as family life and work commitments!) and have only recently returned to the 40k universe.

I've noticed that a new edition of 40k has sprung into existence and was curious as to how our beloved chapter fares now? I will always remain a knight first (and an IT project manager second, but the less said about THAT the better!) and have no interest in playing any other chapter, but I remain curious.

I'm in the process of dusting off the ol' models, whilst keeping them out of reach of a certain 3 year old (what is the Black Templar official line for dealing with recalcitrant toddlers?) and have roughly 1,500 points worth of material, so will have the chance to find out for myself soon.

I guess I'd like to know what's changed, what's stayed the same and if the "tactics" I used to use (huge blob of crusader squads charging forward in a mass gaggle of swords and mild anger problems) still works?



Brother Balian
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#2
Brother Chaplain Ryld

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Hail to thee, Brother Balian.

Templars, while are a bit behind the newer 5th edition codices, we are still a competitive build. We lost the ability to zeal into combat with the removal of the 'consolidate into combat' rule, but our biggest trump in my opinion, was the change to preferred enemy. With this vow, all Initiates and Dreadnoughts re roll missed attacks in combat. Out assault Terminators, combined with a Land Raider Crusader and Furious Charge is one of the most feared unit in the game. Some of our vehicles are cheaper than their Vanilla counterparts and we still have a wargear section, meaning we can tailor our HQ somewhat, like optional iron halos, terminator honours etc.
On the down side, newer codices have more options for their troops, freebies like flamer and missile launcher for Tactical squads, better storm shields (3+ inv against everything compared to 4+ inv against combat only) and newer units and vehicles like stern/van guard, Land Raider Redeemer, Iron Clad Dreadnought, etc. Compared to the new Blood Angel and Space Wolf lists, two combat orientated chapters, we lack the extra bite in our attack for our crusader squads, relying on an attached Emperors Champion and a Marshall or Castellan to add some power. 5th edition also seems to favour mechanised lists, so the 20 man footslogger unit is somewhat ineffective. Some players still run a horde list, but most will swear by the rhino/LRC rush.

Like I said, we are still a competitive list, so line up a few games and see what works for you.

what is the Black Templar official line for dealing with recalcitrant toddlers?


Sounds like your Neophyte just wants to get stuck in as well. <_<

#3
Marshal Laeroth

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Welcome back to the Eternal Crusader Brother! Lots of things have changed since 4th Edition. Namely that Mechanization is King. We are still competitive, but several of the newest codices put us at an disadvantage. That is no problem for a cunning Marshal, however, as we retain several of our prized 4th Edition tools which have since been nerfed for other 5th Edition codices (i.e. smoke launchers).

I invite you to take a look at my site in my signature, as I have recently finished my BT 101 guide. It is designed to cater to players such as yourself, who are returning to the game after a long break or are just plain new to the Black Templars in general. There also might be good information for veteran players as well. Take a gander at it, as it might answer most of your questions. :)

And welcome back once more! :tu:

Edited by Marshal Laeroth, 23 July 2010 - 12:50 AM.

QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


For additional Black Templars tactics, army lists, and general gaming information including the Black Templars 101 guide, check out my site:
Implausible Nature

#4
Messanger of Death

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Welcome back Brother,

As with all things The Beast we know as Warhammer 40k is constantly changing and adapting to it's new environment. This change has resulted in many things which Kirby from the Pinktastic blog has a look at here. The main thing to take away from his article is that the major changes from the previous edition put an emphasis on mobility, shooting and tanks. All three of these changes relate to one another. And Sandwyrm, from the back 40K, looks at how these three things come together when building a balanced all-comers lists a.k.a competitive list. In his article he sums up the typical balanced all-comers lists with he four basic tools:
1) Long-range Light Anti-Tank
For Black Templars this mainly comes in the form of Predators. There is no definitive agreement on which build is best. But if your after some Light Anti-Tank then the Autocannon is your best beat. Edit - light vehicles include things like Rhinos and Chimera. It is anything that isn't AV 13 or 14. So don't think of vehicles like Predators, Leman Russes or the Land Raider.

2) Close-Range Heavy Anti-Tank
There is only two guns in the Black Templar armoury that fulfils this role. The melta-gun and the multi-melta. At 1500 points you want at minimum 5 of these. You can get the minimum five by giving your Crusaders melta-weapons and then going with three Land Speeders armed with multi-meltas and heavy flamers. If you have a decent amount of melta-weapons you will not need Lascannons. Edit - another way to deal with some heavy vehicles is to use a tactic known as blocking. In it you move a Land Speeder in the direct pathway of the vehicle so that it has to either move around or tank shock. If they opt to tank shock then you have the advantage of being a skimmer. This is usually used against Land Raiders filled with Assault Terminators. On another note if your up against some Necron Monoliths than you should smile. Your opponent has made it one bit easier to Phase Out the rest of his army... ignore the Monoliths as they are 200 points not spent on increasing the Phase Out number.

3) Close-Range Anti-Troop
This is anything from the holy bolt gun to the chainsword. Due to the ease of getting a cover save in 5th Edition you will want to bring some Flame Templates. Landspeeders are a great way to get in three heavy flamers. Giving at least one of your squads frag grenades is something to keep in mind if you need to assault into cover.

4) Manueverability
The static gun-line is dead in 5th Edition. Armies like Imperial Guard, Blood Angels and even Dark Eldar are able to bring lots of fire power on mobile platforms. This means you need to get into combat as quickly as possible. So use Rhinos and Land Raider Crusaders. Edit - Rhinos (and Razorbacks) are for Crusaders while the Land Raider Crusader is for Assault Terminators. At 1500 points you should focus on brining the necessary tools before investing in Assault Terminators. Unless your thinking of playing an all drop pod assault army.

There is a wealth of resources available on the inter-webz. I've found several bloggers to be helpful. Here are some blogs you may want to look at:
Bald & Screaming,
Kirby's Pinktastic blog,
The Back 40K,
Yes The Truth Hurts,
Spice for the Dice Gods, and here is my blog
Imperial Life

Happy hunting Brother,
Messanger

Edited by Messanger of Death, 23 July 2010 - 03:06 AM.


#5
thundrchickn

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I AM NOT A TEMPLAR!!!

We are Sanguine.

I almost started a templar list a couple months ago but went BA as it was new, shiny, and there wasn't a preconceived strategy/list because of the new book. I've played 2 games against the same templar player only to lose by a few KPs after drawing on objectives. I run a very competitive razorback spam list and he runs LRC/rhino wall of death thing.

Troop for troop, my 5 man assaulty squads will rock any non termie squad you can field if I get the charge. Your blancket hit rerolls is uber. I'd sell my best friends soul for it. Tank for tank I think BAs have a slight advantage. I choose fast attack baal preds over LRs but you guys have some pcp popping termies. I will be focusing on the LR/termies for all my initial shooting from now on. Usually I shoot the transports first but I'm not to scared of your troops now. Anything those termies get near just magically falls off the face of the galaxy.

Even though we have an updated codex, I definately feel your competitive although much more restricted on what options would achieve that level of play. I wouldn't be very happy to sink 500+ points into 1 squad in order to secure a win. I thought very hard about doing a DT army. Bought the codex and everything. Grimaldus is near godlike. I wish he had better combat ability than Mephiston.

FOR SANGUINIUS!!!!!!!!

#6
Marshal Wilhelm

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Hail Balian,

The Eternal Crusader keeps getting bigger, so there is always room for another :)
My brothers have already covered the guts of it. My signature has a unit analysis that most like and get benefit from.

If you get a boy sized mouse wheel, you'll keep your Neophyte out of the firing line for ages ;)

#7
Xelloss

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Shooty Black Templar is a valid option : our terminators still have their two AC for five men, and our dreadnoughts still got their cheap AC. Take vindicators, AC dreadnought(s), AC terminator squad(s), and PF+melta 10-men crusader squads in rhinos and you got an army that can blow pretty much anything to pulp while being almost as effective in melee than close-combat specialists thanks to the EC and AAC. (Demolisher cannon is one of the best SM weapons - which is AC - and his frightening : a lot of people will try to wreck them first and will ignore your rhinos... A weaponless vindicator is often ignored for more dangerous targets while very effective for tank shock with its AV13...)
"In the grimdark labs there is only procrastination"
We have placed numerous beacons, allowing for multiple simultaneous defensive and simultaneous multiple defensive and multiple devastating simultaneous deepstikes - Brother-Captain Indrick Boreale
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Used to play : Black Templars, Sister of Battle ; painted : Dark Elves

#8
Balian

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Thank you for your replies brothers,

So, to recap, it seems, footslogging hu-gigonormous units aren't strictly the flavour of the day, a more mobile force with hard hitting terminator assault/ac loadouts work well. I have plenty of termies, they shall be used to full effect, although I do need to acquire more melta weapons it seems... Hmmm. Food for thought.

How does RZ work with securing objectives now? If we lose a brother, would that lead to us potentially RZ'ing OFF an obective? :wallbash:

Said neophyte is a girl, maybe the Sisters are recruiting at the moment? :D
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

#9
Xelloss

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How does RZ work with securing objectives now? If we lose a brother, would that lead to us potentially RZ'ing OFF an obective? :wallbash:

Nop. There is a gazillon threads explaining why, check them if you want the whole story.
"In the grimdark labs there is only procrastination"
We have placed numerous beacons, allowing for multiple simultaneous defensive and simultaneous multiple defensive and multiple devastating simultaneous deepstikes - Brother-Captain Indrick Boreale
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Used to play : Black Templars, Sister of Battle ; painted : Dark Elves

#10
Marshal Laeroth

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To save the searching, I'll explain why it doesn't:

RZ is a consolidation move as per the rules in our codex. However, with the change to 5th Edition, consolidation moves require a move UP TO D6". That means if you rolled a 6 on your die roll, you could choose to move that 6" forward. Or you could say to heck with that and move 0.00000000001" forward. Therefore, allowing you to stay on the objective.

However, if you fail the LD test, that is another story. lol
QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


For additional Black Templars tactics, army lists, and general gaming information including the Black Templars 101 guide, check out my site:
Implausible Nature

#11
Balian

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To save the searching, I'll explain why it doesn't:

RZ is a consolidation move as per the rules in our codex. However, with the change to 5th Edition, consolidation moves require a move UP TO D6". That means if you rolled a 6 on your die roll, you could choose to move that 6" forward. Or you could say to heck with that and move 0.00000000001" forward. Therefore, allowing you to stay on the objective.

However, if you fail the LD test, that is another story. lol


Ahhh, thank you brother, I had tried searching with no success. I see, explains it all. Cheers!
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

#12
Marshal Laeroth

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Of course. That's what I'm here for. :wallbash:
QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


For additional Black Templars tactics, army lists, and general gaming information including the Black Templars 101 guide, check out my site:
Implausible Nature

#13
Brother Chaplain Ryld

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How does RZ work with securing objectives now? If we lose a brother, would that lead to us potentially RZ'ing OFF an obective? :huh:


The rule book also states that with a consolidation move, you may move up to D6. So you have the option whether to move or remain stationary.

++edit++
Italics on the wrong word. :pinch:

Edited by Ryld, 23 July 2010 - 07:20 PM.


#14
Balian

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How does RZ work with securing objectives now? If we lose a brother, would that lead to us potentially RZ'ing OFF an obective? :huh:


The rule book also states that with a consolidation move, you may move up to D6. So you have the option whether to move or remain stationary.

++edit++
Italics on the wrong word. :pinch:


Thank you again, Brother Ryld.

It seems as though all is not lost in that capacity after all. I need to wait till I get home, (work away a lot! :( ) before trying to get a game sorted... Will pop down to the local Gee-Dub methinks.
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

#15
Balian

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OPTION 1

1750 Pts - Black Templars Roster - Best of Black Templars

1 Emperor's Champion
Bolt Pistol; Crusader Seals; Frag Grenades; The Black Sword; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds
1 Armor of Faith
1 The Black Sword

1 Venerable Dreadnought
Dreadnought CCW; Venerable; Heavy Flamer; Multi-Melta; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

1 Dreadnought
Dreadnought CCW; Heavy Flamer; Multi-Melta; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

1 Dreadnought
Dreadnought CCW; Heavy Flamer; Multi-Melta; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

5 Crusader Squad
Bolter (x4); Meltagun; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

5 Crusader Squad
Bolter (x4); Meltagun; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

5 Crusader Squad
Bolter (x4); Meltagun; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

5 Crusader Squad
Bolter (x4); Meltagun; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

5 Crusader Squad
Bolter (x4); Meltagun; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

5 Crusader Squad
Bolter (x4); Meltagun; Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds; Drop Pod
1 Drop Pod
Inertial Guidance System; Storm Bolter; Deathwind Missile Launcher

1 Land Speeder Squadron
Multi-Melta (x1); Heavy Flamer (x1)

1 Land Speeder Squadron
Multi-Melta (x1); Heavy Flamer (x1)

1 Land Speeder Squadron
Multi-Melta (x1); Heavy Flamer (x1)

Total Roster Cost: 1750

OPTION 2

1850 Pts - Black Templars Roster - Drop Templars

Emperor's Champion w/Accept Any Challenge, No Matter The Odds

Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad w/5 Termies w/Lightning Claws x3; Thunder Shield x2; Furious Charge, in Drop Pod

Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad w/5 Termies w/Lightning Claws x3; Thunder Shield x2; Furious Charge, in Drop Pod

Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squad w/5 Termies w/Lightning Claws x3; Thunder Shield x2; Furious Charge, in Drop Pod

Crusader Squad w/ 5 Crusaders, 4 Neophytes, Meltagun; Power Fist in Drop Pod
Crusader Squad w/ 5 Crusaders, 4 Neophytes, Meltagun; Power Fist in Drop Pod
Crusader Squad w/ 5 Crusaders, 4 Neophytes, Meltagun; Power Fist in Drop Pod

2 Land Speeders w/ Multi-Melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2
2 Land Speeders w/ Multi-Melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2
2 Land Speeders w/ Multi-Melta x2; Heavy Flamer x2

Total Roster Cost: 1850
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These were a couple of army ideas that I saw listed on YTTH, I've removed the points for each unit, but I'm led to believe that these are reliable. How valid are drop pod tactics for BT's in 5th Ed? Do either of these armies look as though they could present more of a challenge to an opponent than the other? I have some more cash to spend at the end of the month, so am looking to augment what I currently have, mainly crusader squads and termies at the moment. I need to purchase more vehicles/drop pods depending on advice received etc.

Thank you again brothers.

Brother Balian.
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

#16
Marshal Laeroth

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In my opinion, Drop Pod Templars are very close to being the most competitive build we have (with some exceptions). I've played about a dozen games with list #1 when Stelek came out with it (scaled up to 2k points) and only 2 games with list #2 (also scaled to 2k points). First list, I won all of the games I played with it except for one, which was a draw. The second list, I lost one and won the other.

I had to proxy play with them though, as I don't exactly have 9 Drop Pods laying around. It would cost me almost $450 to buy them (3x Forgeworld Pod for Dread, 6x normal Pod). For a build that will likely cease to exist once we get an updated codex, I didn't feel the money was well spent with me paying back student loans atm. :/ However, if you have disposable income, or can borrow a bunch of Pods, those two lists are excellent.
QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


For additional Black Templars tactics, army lists, and general gaming information including the Black Templars 101 guide, check out my site:
Implausible Nature

#17
Balian

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In my opinion, Drop Pod Templars are very close to being the most competitive build we have (with some exceptions). I've played about a dozen games with list #1 when Stelek came out with it (scaled up to 2k points) and only 2 games with list #2 (also scaled to 2k points). First list, I won all of the games I played with it except for one, which was a draw. The second list, I lost one and won the other.

I had to proxy play with them though, as I don't exactly have 9 Drop Pods laying around. It would cost me almost $450 to buy them (3x Forgeworld Pod for Dread, 6x normal Pod). For a build that will likely cease to exist once we get an updated codex, I didn't feel the money was well spent with me paying back student loans atm. :/ However, if you have disposable income, or can borrow a bunch of Pods, those two lists are excellent.


Yeah, I hear ya about the student loans. Thankfully, IT is pretty well paid. That said, I'm not gonna go nuts, I'll get a couple of things and build up over a period of months.

Do we think dreads over termies, or what...?

Thanks again,

Balian.
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

#18
Marshal Laeroth

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I much prefer list #1.
QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


For additional Black Templars tactics, army lists, and general gaming information including the Black Templars 101 guide, check out my site:
Implausible Nature

#19
Balian

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I much prefer list #1.


Exellent brother, any particular reason? Dreads more "survivable" over termies? Or just more flexible?

Cheers,

Brother Balian
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

#20
Marshal Laeroth

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The reason is, you have to eat a turn of shooting upon dropping down. Against concentrated enemy fire (which is likely because you're dropping right in their face), even terminators might succumb. If you've done it right, you CAN go to ground to try and save them from low AP shots, but if you don't lose a guy (for Righteous Zeal), then you lose a turn with them. If they do manage to kill someone, you'll be removed from the "to ground" status once you move or fall back.

Still, the two games I played with the list, they ate so much firepower they ended up seriously mauled and were not as serious a threat as they could have been. That did leave my troops squads relatively unharmed though. The terminators also don't have any long range weapons to fire the turn they drop, so they are essentially sitting ducks. The Dreadnoughts can shrug off almost all shots, and can fire weapons. And if you properly dropped them (behind vehicles to melta), you'll probably have a cover save from most anything that shoots at you. And a dreadnought can easily tie up an unit in CC for a good while.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not naysaying the Terminators, I just don't like how they get blasted for a full turn without getting to do anything. :D
QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


For additional Black Templars tactics, army lists, and general gaming information including the Black Templars 101 guide, check out my site:
Implausible Nature

#21
Balian

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The reason is, you have to eat a turn of shooting upon dropping down. Against concentrated enemy fire (which is likely because you're dropping right in their face), even terminators might succumb. If you've done it right, you CAN go to ground to try and save them from low AP shots, but if you don't lose a guy (for Righteous Zeal), then you lose a turn with them. If they do manage to kill someone, you'll be removed from the "to ground" status once you move or fall back.

Still, the two games I played with the list, they ate so much firepower they ended up seriously mauled and were not as serious a threat as they could have been. That did leave my troops squads relatively unharmed though. The terminators also don't have any long range weapons to fire the turn they drop, so they are essentially sitting ducks. The Dreadnoughts can shrug off almost all shots, and can fire weapons. And if you properly dropped them (behind vehicles to melta), you'll probably have a cover save from most anything that shoots at you. And a dreadnought can easily tie up an unit in CC for a good while.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not naysaying the Terminators, I just don't like how they get blasted for a full turn without getting to do anything. ;)


Mmm, valid point brother Marshall, I'm also a bit cheesed at the lack of termy kill power at times. I love 'em. Oh well. Need to get more dreads anyway. :)

Cheers,

Balian.
NO PITY! NO REMORSE! NO FEAR!

#22
Brother Vader

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you CAN go to ground to try and save them from low AP shots, but if you don't lose a guy (for Righteous Zeal), then you lose a turn with them. If they do manage to kill someone, you'll be removed from the "to ground" status once you move or fall back.


You lose a turn even if you pass the RZ check though. A move made through Righteous Zeal does not cancel 'Going to Ground'. Only a fall back move does that. If you pass the RZ test while gone to ground you can make a consolidate move (as you react normally to the enemy), so your guys can wriggle on their bellies along the ground a bit, but that does not mean you can act normally next turn.

You could do all sorts of cheesy things if zeal actually cancelled 'going to ground', especially with mixed crusader squads out in the open where the neophytes are quite likely to fail a couple of saves. If a squad with a Plasma Cannon and some bolters fired at you you could take the Plasma Cannon saves with the cover bonus for being on the ground, but then take the bolter saves on the neophytes, fail a few, zeal, etc etc.
Even worse would be if your squad is in cover and had already taken a casualty that phase (so you are going to take a zeal test whatever happens, morale checks happen at the end of the shooting phase) and then it's hit by something nasty like a demolisher shell. You then go to ground safe in the knowledge that you're already taking a zeal check even if you pass all your cover saves, then zeal forwards and act normally next turn........... Cheese of the cheesiest variety!
I'd be amazed if an opponent actually let you get away with that.

Edited by Brother Vader, 27 July 2010 - 08:00 PM.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.



The Black Templars: Superkillyfragballisticxenoterminatus.

#23
Marshal Laeroth

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They do, because the RAW says it does.

It was also answered to be this way via several different GW people back when they actually answered your questions on the phone/email. I've also gotten that this is the correct reading from several GW staff at two different GW stores. So that is how I play it, and I've not had any complaints from any of my opponents when I've shown them the rules. But I've only had one person argue it, and it was ruled in my favor.
QUOTE (Acebaur @ Jul 1 2012, 12:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Laeroth, I think you are the Yoda of the BT forum. I demand you start speaking backwards! :P


For additional Black Templars tactics, army lists, and general gaming information including the Black Templars 101 guide, check out my site:
Implausible Nature

#24
Marshal Wilhelm

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Laeroth, can you spell out what you are saying (it's early :P )

I have always dismissed GtG, and so didn't bother reading the rules :D

pg 24 reads "The drawback of GtG is that the unit can do nothing until the end of its following turn.
At the end of its following turn the unit returns to normal, the marker is removed and the unit is free to act as normal from then on.

Whilst it has GtG the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions (for example, it will take Morale tests as normal) If the unit has to fall back, it will return to normal immediately.
If assaulted, the unit will fight as usual, but gains no advantage for being in cover because they ae not set to receive the enemy charge (see pg 36)"

+++

Get shot, GtG.
Take casualties.
RZ test.
Fail or suceed - "it will return to normal immediately"
WOW!
*I would have agreed with Vader that failing reverts to normal and succeeding does not, but hey, I can live with both sides being 'heads' :P

+++

I have a few things to say on this, but RL calls, so watch this space.... (or my next post.....)

#25
Brother Vader

Brother Vader

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But I've only had one person argue it, and it was ruled in my favor.

Lucky you! That's not how is seen by everyone including various tournaments. Adepticon, for example, check their FAQ.

from several GW staff at two different GW stores.

Hmmmm, I was one once and I know that they're not infallible, they do get stuff wrong just as much as everybody else. The people on the end of the phone are not the design team, so their opinion is not reliable either.

They do, because the RAW says it does.

No, it doesnt. In the rules for Going to Ground is says that if you fall back you return to normal. Is RZ a fall back? No it isn't.
You can react as normal to the enemy, but unless you fall back you do not return to normal in your next turn. Reacting as normal
and returning to normal are two very different things. Nothing in the RZ rules overrides that fact that you can do nothing of your
own volition while gone to ground. The RZ consolidate move is a reaction to taking a casualty, so you have 'reacted as normal',
after that you can do nothing with that squad for a turn. That's RAW, the two rules work perfectly well together.

If your gaming group let you play it another way than more power to you, but it's not the same everywhere else.

Edit: You can still exploit it the way I play it too, by the way. If you have a Chappy you have directional zeal, so you can still zeal away from a potential assault while gone to ground if that would give you an advantage, or zeal further into cover or out of LOS for your opponent's next turn.

Edited by Brother Vader, 27 July 2010 - 09:32 PM.

I find your lack of faith disturbing.



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