35 replies to this topic

[Grey Mage]

Seriously.... no playtesting, no ideas, nothing.... has the world lost interest in this? Shall it get scragged with all other things being pruned at the moment? Or shall we get some conversation going in here?

[Firenze]

Sorry, I've been away from the B&C for a while, and haven't really had time to do artwork for the dex. I'm probably going to be restarting my push in a week or so. Got a couple of other projects to finish first.

And, I might start to playtest for you guys too.

[Jonas Stromclaw]

I've got a playtest game set up for this weekend against orks.

[Grey Mage]

Ok, well lets get feedback from those ok?

Anyone else have things to report in? Feel free to post in the appropriate threads here too.

[Coverfire]

Honestly, I am not a fan of these rules for the 13th Company. I like a number of aspects, but I would find it hard to find someone to playtest against. I also feel that a feel things are too complicated. I would like to see the list toned down and more in line with the eye of terror.

But I have not playtested this force, so it might not be as complicated and broken as it looks on paper.

[LoneWulfen]

Sorry like Firenze been away for a while, shall start to get on with the artwork in a few days possibly

[Battle-Brother Ludovic]

I'll get to work on that fluff. It may take some time as I have to read a book or two before to get the right facts and the "feel". Should produce something by early next month.

Ludovic

[Grey Mage]

Ok, well lets keep it going guys.

[wolfpack]

not meaning to thread Nec

but i have to agree with coverfire...there are a few points I like about the army but there are others that just don't fit in...like Grey slayers not being able to take power weaps...long fangs can't take multimeltas but can take melta guns??...pack leader MUST replace his bolt pistol??...and as for the LFPL special rule about allowing one LF to count as twin linked??...how do you justify this rule for a missle?? these just don't jive for me...seems un-natural and un-wolfie...doesn't mesh with the new dex...let alone the old ones...

I suppose I will try a play test to see how the rest works out...

@ GM I think that the idea of termies in the 13th is a bit off as well...not to mention their lack of transports...

GW never did justify why they wouldn't have trans or other HS choices well enough in their version of the dex...thought perhaps my fellow battle brothers would give a lil more justice to the thought line and explain why they CAN'T as opposed to why they wouldn't...

[Growler67]

Ummmm, the 13th is "cut off" and thus lacks the logistical support that a Battle Company has access to. They make repairs and scavange what they can and need to continue the fight against the foes of the Imperium. They do not have HS support because over the millenia they could not maintain them or replace the vehicles. This led to the evolution of the 13th becoming a a non-mechanized "fast on their feet" Army. Same would go for TDA. Without an Iron Priest to be able to maintain the armor between battles the suits would eventually fall into disrepair and not protect the individuals within, not to mention Termies go against the concept of "fast on their feet" - "stick and move" - "hit and run" that the 13th has become.

They can scavange bits of Power Armor and ammunition and as needed weapons over time to sustain their operations. Vehicles and TDA are just too difficult to do so with.

[Firenze]

I believe TDA should stay. It is scavengeable from dead Chaos, so still is usable, and Iron Priests are in the army too. TDA units are also a good CQC support unit.


And on the subject of this thread, very soon well be done ruleswise. A bit of tweaking through playtests and then just art and fluff. Then it comes together

[Grey Mage]

not meaning to thread Nec

but i have to agree with coverfire...there are a few points I like about the army but there are others that just don't fit in...like Grey slayers not being able to take power weaps...long fangs can't take multimeltas but can take melta guns??...pack leader MUST replace his bolt pistol??...and as for the LFPL special rule about allowing one LF to count as twin linked??...how do you justify this rule for a missle?? these just don't jive for me...seems un-natural and un-wolfie...doesn't mesh with the new dex...let alone the old ones...

I suppose I will try a play test to see how the rest works out...

@ GM I think that the idea of termies in the 13th is a bit off as well...not to mention their lack of transports...

GW never did justify why they wouldn't have trans or other HS choices well enough in their version of the dex...thought perhaps my fellow battle brothers would give a lil more justice to the thought line and explain why they CAN'T as opposed to why they wouldn't...

1) Grey Slayers are already very strong considering their a 'shooty' troop choice, and they can take a power weapon if you upgrade one to a pack leader.
2) Long Fangs cant take multimeltas for the same reason chaos cant- they werent really around at the time of the heresy.
3) Yes, must. Theres a whole thread about it right here in this forum- if you want to change that rule, take it there. Its done as a way to balance his otherwise cheap points and keep him from being an ablative wound.
4) Twin Linked is just another way of saying 'rerolls failed to hits'. Would it calm you if we wrote in that way? The type of gun makes no difference, its the improved accuracy that counts- a testament to the skills of a man whos been wielding heavy weapons for over ten thousand years.

Lastly, but most importantly- your going to complain that they can take terminator armor *wich was available in the origional codex* but want them to have some kind of transport *wich definitely wasnt* ??? Sorry, no. Scavenging parts off enemy armor to cobble together working suits, or keep what you have running is one thing. Transports are going to be hard to move from world to world without a spaceship, hard to make a portal to fit them through without attracting the attention of warp powers, etc etc. The 13nth company army list doesnt have vehicles, its one of the most defining aspects of it- and I see no reason we should even consider changing that. Eh?

[wolfpack]

@Firenze Iron Priests are NOT in the original dex...TDA on the other hands is...but one must remember the ways of the ruinous powers when it comes to their lackies...the taint that is left behind..the corruption that takes control

@ GM...you misconstrue Brah I was not complaining...I have the original listing for the 13th as laid out in the Eye of Terror dex...

Slayers were not given the option in the old dex however this is supposed to be compatible with the new dex...being shooty doesn't mean they are unable to have them in our work here IMO...so WHY wouldn't they have access to the same weaps as the other squads in the list??...if you are looking for balance it should be explained in a better manner...(I never did like the original 13th dex by the way...too many inconsistencies with the fluff and common logic...besides it felt more like an add on than a true dex to me)

I was lookin for an argument as to why they can't versus why they wouldn't...as our dear brother Growler has done...which still seems a bit shakey as pretty much everything that the 13th would use could be scavenged from fallen chaos...or could it??

my argument works like this for instance...

BIKES are Transport as they are vehicles that you get on and ride to war...even though they do not follow those rules for game purposes...

'So, Mr Hand, how would they be maintained??...'
'why the same way one would maintain a rhino or razorback Mr Spicolli...by scavenging parts and pieces from fallen chaos...'
'but aren't chaos vehicles tainted by the ruinous powers??...'
'why YES, Mr Spicolli, Yes they are...'
'so wouldn't that fall to their bikes as well...'
'why YES it would Mr Spicolli, very true...'
'so how would the 13th scavenge parts from chaos infested machines??...'
"Gee Mr Spicolli I don't know"
So you see the argument continues to go around and around...Logically you can't choose one with out choosing them all (key word being logically)

didn't see the thread and as it was just one point of many I pooled it here...
That is not only lunacy but sheer ignorance on any SW players' part to consider a Long Fang pack leader as ablative...he's the reason the pack can split fire...why would anyone consider him ablative if he is the reason the pack is given it's one and only special rule?

the pack leader being an ablative wound??...he should be one of the last three wounds taken in a LF pack...and just for reference the original dex has him as being only allowed a BP and ccw...as it is worded...
MAKING him take a weaps choice for points means fewer points to work with in building ones list...IMO that is not conducive to the work we are trying to do here, correct??...Fairness and balance Mr Hand...fairness and balance

So call me 'Devil's Advocate'... I, as stated previously, was hoping for something more as we are the ones that GW continually screws over with their hodge podge of rules and faqs...we should be the ones doing a better job for the sake of the community...OUR community

[Grey Mage]

On the Slayers- as I said, they have access to one via the upgrade pack leader- its not a squad choice like in C:SW, its just a squad upgrade. That being said, when you have a limited amount of wargear and maintenance your going to put things where theyll be most used- in this case the assault specialists *as it were* get first dibs on power weapons et all.

One could as easily argue that the parts needed to maintain a space marine bike are much simpler than a rhino, or predator.

But mostly- theyre much smaller, and easier to hide or move through rough terrain *just look at the fat-boy tires!*

And wether or not its lunacy, many players do take him first to preserve their firepower.... *spreads hands*. And yes, making him expensive was also part of the point- everything in the 13nth co is. Thats just the bi-product of being badasses.

[wolfpack]

On the Slayers- as I said, they have access to one via the upgrade pack leader- its not a squad choice like in C:SW, its just a squad upgrade. That being said, when you have a limited amount of wargear and maintenance your going to put things where theyll be most used- in this case the assault specialists *as it were* get first dibs on power weapons et all.

Ok that makes sense to me...so point made

One could as easily argue that the parts needed to maintain a space marine bike are much simpler than a rhino, or predator.

But mostly- theyre much smaller, and easier to hide or move through rough terrain *just look at the fat-boy tires!*

this still has me bugged as all chaos parts would carry the taint even their armor...which was one of the afore mentioned discrepancies from the original list I had a problem with...anything that was scavenged from chaos would carry the taint and thus would increase the chance of the taint from the ruinous powers consuming our lost brothers...follow my logic now?...if we are going to assume that they have been chasing their final mission all this time and if we also follow that Warp space is not only a distortion of space but also of time...then wouldn't it follow that they are capable of traveling in both ways..not just through space but also time...and thus are able to go back and retrieve what they need before the taint of chaos consumed many of their fellow marines? Of course this leads to a whole other can of worms...

And wether or not its lunacy, many players do take him first to preserve their firepower.... *spreads hands*. And yes, making him expensive was also part of the point- everything in the 13nth co is. Thats just the bi-product of being badasses.

show me the heretics...I will beat them to within an inch of their miscreant worthless lives... (these are the types of players who need to play smurfs as they clearly don't know how to play Russ's children)...As for expense than maybe we should consider raising his base cost as opposed to forcing him to take an assault weapon...which means his special rule is only usable when he doesn't shoot to protect his squad???...

[Grey Mage]

Not everything in the warp is 'tainted' in the demonic sense. And the 13nth company are not exactly what one would call 'pure' either.

Try playtesting them longfangs, see what you think in the fires of a real battle .

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Sorry to stick my nose in, but when it comes to a force that is living off the land or scavenging, the equipment needs to be compatible. While a gun is a gun, and has basic mechanics which can be reverse engineered, Tactical Dreadnaught Armor was a highly complex piece of engineering from a different time which the Adeptus Mechanicus don't even really play with.

I think the biggest problem that arises for the 13th Company boils down to their composition at the time Russ gave that infamous order which lead them to present circumstances. From the sources that I have been able to scrounge up, and they are few and far between (haven't read Prospero Burns YET!) the company of the Wulfen seemed to be a light infantry focused force that didn't utilize most of the heavier options available to it. The source material also leads me to believe that when the order was give the Wulfen Company dove in head first with out taking time to muster their full resources thinking it would be an "easy kill" which leads to the salvaging tainted armor.

The next problem comes in the form of a question, more specifically how does one define the taint of chaos? Is a spiritual corruption that is mirrored in the body or is it a physical corruption that infects the soul? If you decide to go with the first then it makes the mechanics of salvaging easier. However in most of the books that have been written, there is little to no difference between the physical and spiritual corruption of the taint of chaos and the problem that then arises is the spirit in the machine. I am highly doubtful that even the most long gone Wulfen is going to don a piece of armor that he took of a Death Guard, World Eater, Thousand Son or Emperors Children for the simple fact that these are the most long gone hardcore converts to Chaos. So this leaves the 13th with Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords as safer targets, as far as you can stretch the definition of safer in this situation. But the safest targets would be the more recent renegades who haven't fully gone over like the original traitor chapters.

The main reason why I disagree with TDA armor is the fact that it's big and bulky, not suited for the long hunt that the 13th company embarked on. The only access to TDA in the EoT Codex was for characters, to me that says enough. This is what the Company is down to after 10,000 year of war with out access to any support what so ever.

[Grey Mage]

Well the 13nth company was filled with those who had partially fallen to the curse of the Wulfen, and they were used as a vangaurd unit, shock troops to break the toughest enemy lines. Your right though- the 13nth company were not nessecairily expecting their long voyage, and probly didnt bring anything in the way of extra supplies beyond what theyd have on them normally.

The thing about chaos, particularly the realm of chaos, is that there is no difference between matter and energy. Either one can be just as solid, sudden, or strong as the other. What affects your physical body affects your spirit and vice-versa. A plaguemarine isnt just rotting flesh, but also a rotting soul.

That being said, we know that the marines, and indeed the imperium as a whole, has ways to purify things that are tainted by chaos. How easy or difficult this is seems to depend more on the author than the people involved in the fluff. I agree though, the Iron Warriors, Alphas legion etc are less likely to have armor that is directly possessed by a daemon.

The main reason I disagree about your statement on the TDA is that the marines involved wouldnt have had time to don anything else as they ran after the thousand sons. Mostly though it should be noted that the EOT codex didnt have the option for WG at all, just pack leader upgrades- who could in fact take terminator armor from the armory. People rarely took this option, it had to many drawbacks for what it did, but it was there.

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

I notice that as well Grey Mage, make no mistake about it, I still lovingly read over my EoT every so often. The problem that I have with TDA is that it should be available as a character option or upgrade. There was not a Terminator Squad option available to the 13th company.
Wolf Lord-Check
Wolf Priest-Check
Rune Priest-Hell Yeah Check
Wulfen, as in "sorry the marine you are attempting to contact has devolved into a 8 foot tall raving monster so if you would please run for your life it would be greatly appreciated" don't really need to mention.
Storm Claws- Scary Check
Grey Slayers- Scary Check
Storm Claw Bikers- Really Scary Check
Fenrisian Wolves- While these remain a mystery on how they get there they get the check too. My own theory is that it's a social psychosomatic manifestation of the inherent beliefs of the Space Wolves give form in a Realm without rules. After all look how the wolf affects the human psyche today.
Long Fangs- Super Scary Check!

The problem that lies in the recent codex is that Iron Priests went from a HQ option, not a very popular one to an Elite option, still not very popular. In all of the background materiel Iron Priests are a part of the Great Wolf's Company/household and have to be assigned to another great company. I am not sure of how many would have been assigned to Jorin Bloodfang's company not to mention how well they would have fared over this hunt. I think that if you include them then you are opening a can of worms. The reasoning behind this is what they are capable of. If you have one Iron Priest he is capable of repairing the Company's vehicles and those as we are all aware of are Verboten(Forbidden) in this company. That would also lead to TDA being available as Elites again, but they were and should remain very rare and potent artifacts.

Another problem that I do see is that after being exposed to a hostile situation for sooo long, the amount of hormones and adrenalin is going to overwhelm the most potent of psyche or stamina. In modern times you see what happens, either the soldier withdraws, or he get addicted.... the first isn't an option with all the alterations and training and psycho therapies that the Wolves have undergone, which means that sooner or later the beast wins... The even more frightening option is that they fall to Khorne, which also is not an option.

[Grey Mage]

Negatory- Iron Priests were Elites in the 3rd edition codex, and a very often neglected one at that.

There is only so much one can do- a rhino, no matter how well made, only runs so long and can only be patched so many times. Its been 10,000 years. I dont think theres any issue with saying that the fairly rare iron priest that is around, who may or may not be in your warband, cannot keep a fleet of predators running. Particularly when hes busy making sure your scavenged armor is working properly.

Youll also note that TDA is ONLY available if you take an Iron Priest. No Iron Priest? No Terminator Armor. No Squad of Terminators. No TDA Wolf Lord. Why? Because theres no one around with the time, knowledge, and skills to keep it running for the last ten millennia, scavenged parts or not.

I dont think thats particularly unfluffy, or at all off the mark from what you said.

We didnt come here to do a minimalist update, but rather to try and make a balanced codex that is fully compatible with 5th edition and follows the fluff and guidelines of the 13nth co as presented in their one previous list. To let the EOT be our guide and inspiration, not the boundaries. Youll note weve discarded alot of ideas people threw up- some of wich they were very very vehement in their desire to have- like Dreadnaughts, or Thunderwolves, or Giant Wulfen. Were still in contention on some points- like wether storm claws should be elites or troops, and their elite slot be switched out for a PA WG option.

Edited by Grey Mage, 10 January 2011 - 07:11 AM.

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

Negatory- Iron Priests were Elites in the 3rd edition codex, and a very often neglected one at that.

There is only so much one can do- a rhino, no matter how well made, only runs so long and can only be patched so many times. Its been 10,000 years. I dont think theres any issue with saying that the fairly rare iron priest that is around, who may or may not be in your warband, cannot keep a fleet of predators running. Particularly when hes busy making sure your scavenged armor is working properly.

Youll also note that TDA is ONLY available if you take an Iron Priest. No Iron Priest? No Terminator Armor. No Squad of Terminators. No TDA Wolf Lord. Why? Because theres no one around with the time, knowledge, and skills to keep it running for the last ten millennia, scavenged parts or not.

I dont think thats particularly unfluffy, or at all off the mark from what you said.

We didnt come here to do a minimalist update, but rather to try and make a balanced codex that is fully compatible with 5th edition and follows the fluff and guidelines of the 13nth co as presented in their one previous list. To let the EOT be our guide and inspiration, not the boundaries. Youll note weve discarded alot of ideas people threw up- some of wich they were very very vehement in their desire to have- like Dreadnaughts, or Thunderwolves, or Giant Wulfen. Were still in contention on some points- like wether storm claws should be elites or troops, and their elite slot be switched out for a PA WG option.

Funny enough I actually tended to agree more with arguments for a giant wulfen. In the warp where form follows desire who is to say that a wulfen finally doesn't crack and mold himself as the 15 foot tall boogey man about to stomp the little thing poking him into a bloody footprint?

Okay I had to break out my old codex and you are right Grey Mage. I was not in favor of the Wolf Guard or TDA for a couple of reasons. Mostly in our chapter, Tactical Dreadnaught Armor is a gift from the Great Wolf to his Wolf Lords who then present it as a gift to their favorite Wolf Guard who then go stomping the everliving bajeebus our of what ever enemy pissed them off at that time.

The problems that I have I have listed are what would hold me back from using a unit of TDAs. Don't think the iron priests were numerous or hard enough to survive, the wolf guard would have succumbed to the curse after being in combat for so long and lastly the problems with salvaging. It's a great codex, better than the first one I just think that there is that 1 little thing that shouldn't be there.

When you back me into a corner, I don't think that the elite non wulfen PA infantry choice should be called Storm Claws.... give that to the bikers, after all they are still Bloodclaws at heart but the Elite infantry who has survived and NOT Wolfed out should be there... I agree with the original EoT codex in that in this army that has fought for soo long, there are no more Blood Claws. As what to call them, I don't have a bleeding clue in my head and the only thing that comes close would be Wolf Guard...but that just isn't hard enough.

[wolfpack]

Negatory- Iron Priests were Elites in the 3rd edition codex, and a very often neglected one at that.

There is only so much one can do- a rhino, no matter how well made, only runs so long and can only be patched so many times. Its been 10,000 years. I dont think theres any issue with saying that the fairly rare iron priest that is around, who may or may not be in your warband, cannot keep a fleet of predators running. Particularly when hes busy making sure your scavenged armor is working properly.

Youll also note that TDA is ONLY available if you take an Iron Priest. No Iron Priest? No Terminator Armor. No Squad of Terminators. No TDA Wolf Lord. Why? Because theres no one around with the time, knowledge, and skills to keep it running for the last ten millennia, scavenged parts or not.

I dont think thats particularly unfluffy, or at all off the mark from what you said.

We didnt come here to do a minimalist update, but rather to try and make a balanced codex that is fully compatible with 5th edition and follows the fluff and guidelines of the 13nth co as presented in their one previous list. To let the EOT be our guide and inspiration, not the boundaries. Youll note weve discarded alot of ideas people threw up- some of wich they were very very vehement in their desire to have- like Dreadnaughts, or Thunderwolves, or Giant Wulfen. Were still in contention on some points- like wether storm claws should be elites or troops, and their elite slot be switched out for a PA WG option.

Funny enough I actually tended to agree more with arguments for a giant wulfen. In the warp where form follows desire who is to say that a wulfen finally doesn't crack and mold himself as the 15 foot tall boogey man about to stomp the little thing poking him into a bloody footprint?

Okay I had to break out my old codex and you are right Grey Mage. I was not in favor of the Wolf Guard or TDA for a couple of reasons. Mostly in our chapter, Tactical Dreadnaught Armor is a gift from the Great Wolf to his Wolf Lords who then present it as a gift to their favorite Wolf Guard who then go stomping the everliving bajeebus our of what ever enemy pissed them off at that time.

The problems that I have I have listed are what would hold me back from using a unit of TDAs. Don't think the iron priests were numerous or hard enough to survive, the wolf guard would have succumbed to the curse after being in combat for so long and lastly the problems with salvaging. It's a great codex, better than the first one I just think that there is that 1 little thing that shouldn't be there.

When you back me into a corner, I don't think that the elite non wulfen PA infantry choice should be called Storm Claws.... give that to the bikers, after all they are still Bloodclaws at heart but the Elite infantry who has survived and NOT Wolfed out should be there... I agree with the original EoT codex in that in this army that has fought for soo long, there are no more Blood Claws. As what to call them, I don't have a bleeding clue in my head and the only thing that comes close would be Wolf Guard...but that just isn't hard enough.

hmmm....I like yer point Loki...especially about the TDA
and yer points about the chaos taint is the same points I was trying to make...perhaps a WP could cleanse the bits of the chaotic taint that manifests itself into every fiber of those traitorous marines and their gear...but would he not be exhausted just trying to do so after every battle?...or would it fall to one of the other priests to do so...as I see it the WP is the spiritual 'leader' of his charges...or would it be the Rune Priest with his ability to manipulate the runes to disgorge the taint from scavenged bits? Either way...that part of the list and fluff always had me bothered as I feel the taint would still remain...even in the armor so again if yer gonna go one way you gotta be able to go the other...call me logical...

and as for a proper kick arse punch in the face name...
Claw Guard?
Canus Gaurd?
Lupus Claws?
of course I see the point of keeping the names as is from the original EoT dex as to carry on the original tenets set down in it and maintain the fluff coherency...what there is of it

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

What comes to me are the Storm Wolves or Storm Guard...but that isn't quite right either, it needs to incorporate the physical, mental and spiritual aspects of how bad these guys are.......no I am not naming a Single one of them Shaft either.

Edited by Loki-LaughingDeath, 11 January 2011 - 05:18 AM.

[Wulfenstein]

hmmm....I like yer point Loki...especially about the TDA
and yer points about the chaos taint is the same points I was trying to make...perhaps a WP could cleanse the bits of the chaotic taint that manifests itself into every fiber of those traitorous marines and their gear...but would he not be exhausted just trying to do so after every battle?...or would it fall to one of the other priests to do so...as I see it the WP is the spiritual 'leader' of his charges...or would it be the Rune Priest with his ability to manipulate the runes to disgorge the taint from scavenged bits? Either way...that part of the list and fluff always had me bothered as I feel the taint would still remain...even in the armor so again if yer gonna go one way you gotta be able to go the other...call me logical...

and as for a proper kick arse punch in the face name...
Claw Guard?
Canus Gaurd?
Lupus Claws?
of course I see the point of keeping the names as is from the original EoT dex as to carry on the original tenets set down in it and maintain the fluff coherency...what there is of it

Would it be WP that do the cleansing or would it fall onto the RP to actually do it? I can see it working for both sides but I am more inclined for the RP to do the actual cleansing and if that's the case, if I am not mistaken, the 13th company has a steady amount of RP recruits due to being out in the warp.

Either way, I like reading through this section because a lot of valid questions / responses have popped up. Either way, keep up the good work!

----Edit----
Bah after re-reading I feel dumb. I said what you said over haha.

Edited by Wulfenstein, 06 February 2011 - 01:29 PM.

[Growler67]

I can see a RP alone or in conjunction with an IP performing the Rites to cleanse and calm tjhe machine spirits within the armor being scavenged. It would seem an easier task once the previous wearer is dead and the armore removed/recovered before such rituals are performed. Perhaps even a final 'blessing' of sorts by the WP before or during its installation/donning by the new wearer to be good-to-go. We all know it has to be done, we are just trying to rationalize the most logical way to justify it in the fluff.