Wound Allocation Question

[Aeddon]

I haven't had this come up in a game yet but this thought occured to me.

 

Lets say you have a five-man Sternguard Veteran Squad, each outfitted with a Combi-melta. In their first turn three fire their one "melta" shot. In the following turn the opponent inflicts five wounds on that squad.

 

 

Now, according to rules-as-written they are all equiped with the same weapons and wargear so this would mean they all role their saves at the same time.

 

However, affectively three of them only have bolters since they have fired the melta from their weapons. So would you then need to role for those three separately?

 

 

Common sense would seem to dictate that this potential issue be brought up with my opponent before the game but I'd still like to know what the community here says. Thanks.

[stinkenheim]

They are all armed with combi-meltas regardless of whether they have fired with them or not.

 

A combi-melta with no charges left is still a combi-melta, it doesn't suddenly become a Bolter as it is a completely different weapon.

[greatcrusade08]

yeah by RAW youd roll them all together, its a bit cheeky as it allows casualties to be taken from the ones that have already fired thier melta.

[Irabrai]

Doesnt the player with the Sternguard attempt to make the saves and then decide which casulties to remove - therefore he can remove the sternguard with the melta charge still available?

[Legatus]

Lets say you have a five-man Sternguard Veteran Squad, each outfitted with a Combi-melta. In their first turn three fire their one "melta" shot. In the following turn the opponent inflicts five wounds on that squad.

 

 

Now, according to rules-as-written they are all equiped with the same weapons and wargear

Technically, two of the Marines carry loaded Combi-meltas while three carry spent Combi-Meltas.

 

From the Rulebook, page 25, "Complex Units":

"The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

 

If you have one model that can fire a melta shot and one model that can't, are they identical in gaming terms?

[Frosty the Pyro]

Lets say you have a five-man Sternguard Veteran Squad, each outfitted with a Combi-melta. In their first turn three fire their one "melta" shot. In the following turn the opponent inflicts five wounds on that squad.

 

 

Now, according to rules-as-written they are all equiped with the same weapons and wargear

Technically, two of the Marines carry loaded Combi-meltas while three carry spent Combi-Meltas.

 

From the Rulebook, page 25, "Complex Units":

"The rules for taking saving throws and removing casualties, as presented so far, assume that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

 

If you have one model that can fire a melta shot and one model that can't, are they identical in gaming terms?

I am with Legatus on this one. The entire point of wound alocation is so that if enouph wounds are forced then special weapon, hiden fists, special characters and the like are risked without the player simply being able to sacrifice less important/valuable models instead.

[stinkenheim]

Then would you not say that a Tyranid Warrior with 2 wounds is different to a Tyranid Warrior with 3 wounds? In gaming terms they would have different profiles, but I doubt anyone would want me to seperate them for wound allocaion purposes.

It seems fundamentally flawed to me apply the 'in gaming terms' section on a turn by turn basis.

Is the model armed with a combi-melta. yes. Does that combi-melta change to a different weapon once the melta part has been fired? No. Ergo it is still a combi-melta regardless of whether it has been fired or not and so the models have identical wargear and statlines.

[Grey Mage]

*shrugs* Having taken a wound doesnt actually change their profile though.

 

Once youve fired of the C-M the sterngaurd holding it is for all intents and purposes just equiped with a bolter.... and the groups Ive played in have always treated it as such.

 

Same thing with Wolf Totems in a GH squad- once its popped, hes just another guy.

[SeattleDV8]

Actually it does change the profile.

Wounds are the fifth item in a models profile, in fact Stinkenheim makes a stronger argument than does the shot combi-weapon.

It may only be a one shot weapon but it is still the same wargear/weapon.

"........that all the models in the target unit are identical in gaming terms. By this we mean they have the same profile of characteristics, the same special rules and the same weapons and wargear."

I tend to play this as the same starting profile, special rules and wargear/weapons.

Otherwise you get the very silly example of treating wounded models as different from unwounded ones.

[Legatus]

Then would you not say that a Tyranid Warrior with 2 wounds is different to a Tyranid Warrior with 3 wounds?

As far as I am concerned, yes, but the rules sort of account for that, since there are specific rules for how to proceed with units with several multi-wound model on page 26 of the rulebook.

 

 

Does that combi-melta change to a different weapon once the melta part has been fired?

In "fluff" it doesn't, but in the game it absolutely does. Or if you feel more comfortable that way, do not see it as a model with a different weapon, see it as a model with different wargear. One might have a combi-melta and some melta ammo, while another model has a combi-melta but no melta-ammo. It is much more obvious with a weapon such as the IG "demolition charge". It is a ranged weapon with the "One Shot Only" attribute, so technically once the model has "used" it, it still has the weapon but just cannot shoot with it anymore. But in fluff terms the model has thrown the charge and it is now gone, so it is not really equipped with it anymore.

 

Combi-Melta:

Fluff - weapon still there but empty

Rules - weapon's single use expent

 

Demolition Charge:

Fluff - charge gone

Rules - weapon's single use expent

 

In game terms, a model that has not yet used the weapon so can fire off such a shot, is different from a model that has expended it's use, so can no longer fire such a shot.

[SeattleDV8]

Sorry Legatus, but the rules for multi wound models disprove your point.

Even though the models now have different wounds (which are part of their profile) they are still treated as identical.

So a model with a combi-weapon would also be treated the same fired or not.

The rules on page 26 just help make my point that is the models starting profile (etc,) that matters.

[Grey Mage]

Having reread the rules on multi-wound models, yes it does seem to support the idea of it being starting profiles.

[Legatus]

A. By reading the rule on page 26 it does not appear that one of the model's profiles is altered at all:

 

"Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you must remove whole models where possible. (...) Track any excess wounds with a note or a marker as noted above."

 

"The player then takes seven saves for the three normal Nobz, failing three. He cannot put a single wound on each Nob, but must remove one model as well as recording that one normal Nob has suffered a wound."

 

It almost seems like you track excess wounds for a group of models. E.g. A unit of 5 identical Nobz suffers three wounds. You then remove one Nob and note that the unit has suffered one additional wound. The next single wound would remove a Nob, as one is already wounded, while the next instant kill wound would remove one Nob but keep the suffered wound.

 

 

B. These rules are specifically designed for units with several models with multiple wounds. It had been my original point that having a different number of wounds is thereby an exception to the basic rules of how model characteristics and equipment has to be identical, as we are specifically told how to proceed in case of two otherwise identical models having a different number of wounds.

 

"If a unit consists entirely of modles that are identical in gaming terms and have multiple wounds, then take all the saves for the unit in one go."

 

 

C. It can be argued that a model's "Wounds" profile characteristic is not changed, but merely states how many wounds that model can suffer before being removed. How many wounds the model has suffered in the game are noted by the player on a piece of paper or shown with a marker next to the model. A Space Marine Captain that has already lost two wounds has that noted on a piece of paper or a marker next to the model, but a Space Marine Captain is still essentially a 3 Wound model.

 

 

D. Characteristings will only rarely change during a game, and changes in wargear or equipment will also not happen that often (except for vehicles, where it is quite common), but it can absolutely happen, and I can think of examples of both. Interpreting "models that have the same weapons and wargear" as meaning "at the start of the game" is therefor quite inappropriate.

Other than "One Use Only" Weapons there are other ways wargear can be lost. The Dark Eldar have a few items that can be placed (Webway Portal) or destroyed (Shadow Field). If you had one Archon with still intact Shadow Field and one whose Field had already been destroyed in teh same unit and were to distribute wounds, these two models even would have different saves. How can they ever be considered "equal in gaming terms" at that point?

[Grey Mage]

On the other hand it says a model 'loses a wound from their profile', and that 'when their wound characteristic reaches 0 they are removed as a casualty'.

[BlackSpike]

C. It can be argued that a model's "Wounds" profile characteristic is not changed, but merely states how many wounds that model can suffer before being removed. How many wounds the model has suffered in the game are noted by the player on a piece of paper or shown with a marker next to the model. A Space Marine Captain that has already lost two wounds has that noted on a piece of paper or a marker next to the model, but a Space Marine Captain is still essentially a 3 Wound model.

 

In a similar manner, a Model with a Combi-Weapon still has a Combi-Weapon even after firing it. you note on a piece of paper that it has been used, but his Stat-line and Profile have not altered. He is still a model carrying a combi-weapon.

(Not sure if this is what you are arguing or not, just my take on this point)

 

I'm still unsure of how to rule this, but my Ork Nobs rarely take the same Combi-weapons. If i'm WAC-Dancing, i'll take a kombi-skorcha and a kombi-rokkit.

You could argue that after they have both fired, neither have a kombi, so are now part of the same group, but I feel that is wrong.

[Legatus]

you note on a piece of paper that it has been used, but his Stat-line and Profile have not altered. He is still a model carrying a combi-weapon.

He is now a model with an empty combi-weapon. The rules do make a distinction there don't they?

 

There are other weapons or items that can onle be used once. Either they are "One Shot Only" weapons, or they are a piece of wargear that is used once or placed, sich as the Dark Eldar Webway Portal. Then there are items that can be destroyed over the course of the game. Now, in all of these cases, does a model's 'wargear/equipment' loadout change once he has used up an item or has it destroyed, or does the model still count as being equipped with that item, even if it has been destroyed, or he has deployed it somewhere, or he has used up the charges?

[stinkenheim]

A model with a wolf totem still has that same piece of wargear once it has been used, likewise a model with a combi-melta is still armed with a combi-melta regardless of whether it has been fired or not.

 

No where in the rules does it say that a combi-weapon becomes a standard bolter after its used up it single shot weapon.

 

The wargear is still the same, the weapons profile may have been altered (in that it only has one option,not 2) but unfortunately the weapons profile is of no concern when determining whether mdels are different. To determine different groups you simply look at the models 'profile characteristics', 'special rules', 'weapons and wargear'.

 

There are few items now which can actually be destroyed or placed by a model, most of them found in borderline out of date codexs (i don't know the plural so pardon the mangled grammar). Bionics in DHs for instance (once the test is made it can no longer be used) and Shadowfields (think that the name of the DE thingy) which state that they are destroyed under certain situations. As such you cannot claim that a model is equiped with it as it has ceased to exist. Liekwise some items that can be placed usually require markers to keep track of their location. Upon placement of the marker the model would then lose that item of wargear (the portal or whatever it is would then be represented by the marker instead).

 

I personally think it is a very loose interpretaton of the rule to decide that a model without the ability to fire a combi-weapons one shot component is suddenly equiped with a different weapon enitrely and would not even contemplate doing this myself.

[Legatus]

I maintain that a model with a full combi-bolter and a model with a spent combi bolter are different in gaming terms. One can shoot down a Land Raider next turn, the other one can't. For gameplay purposes the two models are currently as different as one with a meltagun and one with a boltgun.

The extra weapon of a combi-weapon is described in the Codex Space Marines as "only carrying a limited charge, allowing the bearer a single shot". So we can easily take that and distinguish between "combi-melta with charge" and "combi-melta without charge" as two different weapons.

 

Take the Imperial Guard "Demolition Charge" as a comparison. Once a model has used the charge, would ist still count as being equipped with the demolition charge?

[Grey Mage]

Well heres a better one- If a Predator has its sponsons, turret, stormbolter an HK missile, and you fire the missile turn 1, when you get 5 Weapon Destroyed results on turn 2, is it immobilized?

[Legatus]

I would say yes, as I would see the Predator as no longer having a Hunter-killer Missile at that point. The Hunter-killer Missile is described as a Krak Missile in the rules, not a "launcher", and the Imperial Guard version even looks as a single missile mounted next to the turret of the Tank. Once it's fired it's gone, and any residue parts of it's launch mechanism are now purely decorative.

[Grey Mage]

By that same logic, the combi-melta must be rolled by itself- seperate from those combi-weapons who havent been fired.

[AyanamiKun]

I would not distinguish between unfired Combi-Weapons and spent Combi-Weapons which only have their Bolter-functionality until the end of the game. The weapon stays a combi-weapon. The non-Bolter part is not just ripped out after the shot, it just cannot fire anymore. But overall this discussion is just ... bleh. If you play in a highly compatetive environment (i.e. tournaments) this might be an issue that any judge has to clear up anyway. In a friendly game it would not make sense to discuss about this at all because it's about having fun and not about getting as much benefit out of the unclear rules as possible.

[Legatus]

I would not distinguish between unfired Combi-Weapons and spent Combi-Weapons which only have their Bolter-functionality until the end of the game. The weapon stays a combi-weapon. The non-Bolter part is not just ripped out after the shot, it just cannot fire anymore.

It is a weapon whose ammunition can be expent. A boltgun is allways a boltgun, because there are no rules for a "loaded boltgun" or an "empty boltgun". But there are rules for a "loaded combi-melta" and an "empty combi-melta". Therefor a model with a loaded combi-melta and a model with an empty combi-melta do not have identical wargear.

 

A model that can fire a melta-shot and a model that cannot are not identical in gaming terms. Identical models are rolled for together. These two are not identical.

[AyanamiKun]

Yes, I got your position. As long as I'm not playing in a tournament I would still use my interpretation, even if that is a disadvantage for myself. On tournaments I would obey to the rules interpretation of the judges, no matter if it is the same as mine or not.

[BlackSpike]

Is an Empty Kombi-Rokkit different from an Empty Kombi-Skorcha?

They are identical in game-terms, but definitely different weapons.

 

e.g. I start with One Nob with Shoota, One Nob with Kombi-Skorcha, One Nob with Kombi-Rokkit (3 Wound groups).

I fire both Kombis.

How many wound groups are there now?

1? (3 Nobs with Shootas)

2? (1 Nob with Shoota, 2 with Empty Kombi-Weapons)

3? (1 shoota, 1 empty kombi-skorcha, one empty kombi-rokkit)