Yes another topic on Night Haunter

[Csm001]

Hi!

I was searching for information about a legion I love and found this. It´s really awesome to find a Black Library author here! I registered at once.

 

I have read Soul Hunter, and I like it. I rate it 6 out of 10. I have read Lord of the Night too, and found it just delightful, 10 out of 10. I recommend both books.

 

In my opinion, Mr ADB is quite a good writer, far better than Mr Spurrier and perhaps the best author amongst those working for the noble and sacred task of spreading W40K all over the world, but I read BL books for the background, and little else. And I am having big big problems with the background of Soul Hunter. I will list a few, avoiding spoilers, and humbly ask your opinions.

 

1) This is a warband that has been isolated from everything for 9900 years, just as Sahaal, but Sahaal got shocked when he found what the legion had become. In Soul Hunter it is somehow implicit that the rest of the legion is not that different.

2) The Exalted is not like Periclitor. Nor is he like Krieg. They are both unmarked, for the Night Lords feel nothing but scorn for those who fall under the influence of the Big Four (as for any kind of faith or code of honor; they are criminals of the worse kind). Night Hunter is the first piece of work (as far as I know) where Khorne, Tzeentch and company find a place in this legion. And what about the sorcerers? They were supposed to have powers relating with darkness, terror, how to make a good chair out of human flesh, foresee bad things for everyone including themselves,… I must admit I like the NL been unique when it comes to religion (or the lack of it).

3) What about Tsagualsa? The Night Lords (as well as other people tainted by chaos) use people as building material, and the fortress where Night Haunter had his base of operations was the most amazing piece of this sweet form of art ever seen. In the vid-log of M´Shen we see the carpet over the stairs that lead to the throne of Curze, made of human faces still living, screaming. Lord of the Night has many scenes in this beautiful and picturesque place, that I found delicious to read. I miss Tsagualsa. I miss it so much. I guess it didn´t fit the “tragic heros” new role of the NL. This makes me sad.

4) And what about the living lighting that plays across their armour? The Exalted got it, but for the rest… it´s paint! Just paint! Wow, that hurts.

5) Raptors.

6) Worse of all: they are good people! They are heros! They face their enemies like brave warriors of old, instead of avoiding all form of fair play!. Many people now do belief that Night Lords are tragic heros, people who care, great soldiers, courage & honor ultramarines suffering bad karma… I admit this issue slightly irks me. And the lives of the human they live with are not significantly worse than those under imperial law. Come on this people feeds on terror! I can only join Rain and Legatus and many other Night Lords followers here. I hope Blood Reaver will give us some terror.

 

And FenixAstartia, funny enough, was right. If this book was about, say, The Damned Company of Lord Caustos, it would have got a 10 out of 10, and a golden age for this warband would have started to the awe of us all. Great characters, good writing,… it had everything. I just don´t understand the point of using a name and not the information behind it. And I must admit I am utterly scared of ADB writing a Horus Heresy book about this… heros, and therefore depriving me of a HH book about the Night Lords.

 

End nerd rage. End nerd rage.

[Legatus]

1) This is a warband that has been isolated from everything for 9900 years, just as Sahaal, but Sahaal got shocked when he found what the legion had become. In Soul Hunter it is somehow implicit that the rest of the legion is not that different.

The Warband in 'Soul Hunter' had not spent their time in isolation. They have fought, even if for them only about a century has passed. They still were able to see the gradual process that turned a lot of their Legion's warbands into twisted Chaos Marine forces. I also assume that most of the transformation will have happened in the early couple of centuries, and not actually have taken several millenia to take effect. Most of the Legtion will already have been firmly "Chaos" in all it's spiky glory very soon after the Heresy.

 

 

2) The Exalted is not like Periclitor. Nor is he like Krieg. They are both unmarked, for the Night Lords feel nothing but scorn for those who fall under the influence of the Big Four (as for any kind of faith or code of honor; they are criminals of the worse kind). Night Hunter is the first piece of work (as far as I know) where Khorne, Tzeentch and company find a place in this legion. And what about the sorcerers? They were supposed to have powers relating with darkness, terror, how to make a good chair out of human flesh, foresee bad things for everyone including themselves,… I must admit I like the NL been unique when it comes to religion (or the lack of it).

You don't get raised into daemonhood without sucking up to some warp deity. That's just not how that business works. Periclitor or Krieg may not have been in league with one of the four major powers (weren't they? Are were we just not told all the details?), but they were in league with something nonetheless.

 

 

3) What about Tsagualsa? The Night Lords (as well as other people tainted by chaos) use people as building material, and the fortress where Night Haunter had his base of operations was the most amazing piece of this sweet form of art ever seen. In the vid-log of M´Shen we see the carpet over the stairs that lead to the throne of Curze, made of human faces still living, screaming. Lord of the Night has many scenes in this beautiful and picturesque place, that I found delicious to read. I miss Tsagualsa. I miss it so much. I guess it didn´t fit the “tragic heros” new role of the NL. This makes me sad.

The book was not about "the Night Lords". It was about a Night Lords warband. I found the scavenging, survivalist take on a Chaos Warband very interresting. It certainly beat the "one single Night Lord who hadn't got a clue about his own Legion" story of "Lord of the Night".

 

 

4) And what about the living lighting that plays across their armour? The Exalted got it, but for the rest… it´s paint! Just paint! Wow, that hurts.

Old School FTW. Why would Chaos Marines that focus on stealth and darkness have some devices installed that make their armour crackle with lightning? That's not only bright but also makes

.

 

 

5) Raptors.

Which they have. This book was focusing on one particular squad, which was a regular CSM squad. Next book will feature more Raptors if I am not mistaken. I don't have a probem with that.

 

 

6) Worse of all: they are good people! They are heros! They face their enemies like brave warriors of old, instead of avoiding all form of fair play!. Many people now do belief that Night Lords are tragic heros, people who care, great soldiers, courage & honor ultramarines suffering bad karma… I admit this issue slightly irks me. And the lives of the human they live with are not significantly worse than those under imperial law.

With that I actually agree. There were a few instances in the book where the protagonist Night Lords were too nice to their slaves. However, the notion of the Night Lords being "tragic heroes" had been established by "Lord of the Night". A D-B was just not distancing himself from that notion, and instead tried to go somewhat into the same direction for Talos, perhaps so as to not immediately alienate those who liked "Lord of the Night". The next books will probably feature a few different viewpoints from other Night Lords, some with a more realistic point of view.

 

 

A D-B was kind enought to explain a bit of his motivation behind the events of "Lord of the Night" here in the forum, which I guess helped a lot for those who had read that to accept most of "Soul Hunter". For example, it was planned as a series of books, so not only did he use this first book to establish a few of the Characters, but he also deliberately toyed with the Night Lords a bit by having them ordered by Abaddon to attack an enemy head on who is not easily intimidated (Adeptus Mechanicus fellows do not tend to be very emotional). That is not their ideal situation, not a fight they would chose for themselves. So this was not the typical "Night Lords attack a world, blot out the sun with nuclear blast clouds, then scare and then kill everyone" story. It was about a battered Chaos warband, which was forced into straight up combat.

[Csm001]

Ups. Nice and fast reply. Thanks.

 

Most of the Legtion will already have been firmly "Chaos" in all it's spiky glory very soon after the Heresy.

Or even before.

Though I actually agree with you, this makes it even worst. If they were not isolated, they are representative of the rest of the legion. That is what I fear the most, that this “new NL” will eventually take the place of the good old one.

 

There are many gods in the warp. The lack of marks in the NL made them something different, for they do not follow any of the K/N/S/T almost anyone else does. This added variety to a too... ordered chaos. And they somehow "worship" terror as a concept, something I found refreshing. This is not the Black Legion, not it should be. I miss the terror thing, and (I´ll tell you a secret) I am guilty of having entertained wild fantasies about an unnamed God of Terror. Remember when the NL were Khorne followers, back in the nineties? I like the idea of Ares becoming Phobos / Deimos, War becoming Fear / Terror. But... Tzeentch? Oh I love him, but doesn´t fit here.

 

The book was not about "the Night Lords". It was about a Night Lords warband.

. No it´s not. See point one. There was a lot of new background about Night Haunter, which affects ALL Night Lords, since Talos was allegedly the very best friend of Curze. Without references to a primarch making confidences, this book would have been perfect. Just take out "The Damned Company..." I talk about and put in "one warband of the Night Lords legion" and everything will be fine. But the information about Curze its in blatant contradiction with anything written before. It jarrs. So it´s "the Night Lords", as a whole, the matter of both the book and this topic.

 

Why would Chaos Marines that focus on stealth and darkness have some devices installed that make their armour crackle with lightning?

Devices? Read Dark King. It looks like they got a gift from their father. And even if they were devices they would be nice for awesome-looking when needed and connected.

 

Oooohh, I almost missed this:

Old School FTW

How can you say that, when it appears EVEN IN THE COVER OF THE BOOK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?. Do you mean Night Hunter is old school too, and therefore outdated? How can the cover of a book be outdated when the book isn´t? I am confussed.

 

A D-B was kind enought to explain a bit of his motivation behind the events of "Lord of the Night" here in the forum, which I guess helped a lot for those who had read that to accept most of "Soul Hunter". For example, it was planned as a series of books, so not only did he use this first book to establish a few of the Characters, but he also deliberately toyed with the Night Lords a bit by having them ordered by Abaddon to attack an enemy head on who is not easily intimidated (Adeptus Mechanicus fellows do not tend to be very emotional). That is not their ideal situation, not a fight they would chose for themselves. So this was not the typical "Night Lords attack a world, blot out the sun with nuclear blast clouds, then scare and then kill everyone" story. It was about a battered Chaos warband, which was forced into straight up combat.

 

True. I will actually get the next book. I liked this book, and have hope for this story to get better. I have been busy reading through this forum, and actually I feel comforted by some things ADB said... and terrified (in a bad way) by others.

 

You didn´t say anything about Tsagualsa. The Screaming Gallery anyone? "i wish to walk once more on the screaming stairs, gaze once more at his throne.". If Ts is old school fluff, then Lord of the Night is old school fluff, since a lot of chapters begin with the words "On Tsagualsa, ...". See why I am so scared? Sometimes I see ADB as a CS Goto who has made a pact with some warp entity and got demonic powers. If CS Goto were such a good writer, all astartes would be using multilasers nowadays.

 

Thanks again for the answer!

[Legatus]

Though I actually agree with you, this makes it even worst. If they were not isolated, they are representative of the rest of the legion. That is what I fear the most, that this “new NL” will eventually take the place of the good old one.

 

There are many gods in the warp. The lack of marks in the NL made them something different, for they do not follow any of the K/N/S/T almost anyone else does. This added variety to a too... ordered chaos. And they somehow "worship" terror as a concept, something I found refreshing. This is not the Black Legion, not it should be.

I think A D-B probably subscribes to the notion that the Legions are not really coherent forces anymore. That is what the current Codex esxplains. In the 3.5 Codex, and with the Index Astartes article, it was easy to get the impression that there are still nine Chaos Legions out there operating as one unit. But 2nd Edition desribed how the Legions were all more or less scattered because of infighting after the Heresy, so that is what I go with as well.

And while the Night Lords may all have similar feelings towards worship due to their traditions and peers, they are still also all individuals, and it is not a "Legion policy" to not deal with Chaos. There are several Marines in "Soul Hunter" who detest Chaos, but there are others who will try to gain power through it. The Night Lords are very pragmatic about it, and know about the benefits. They are "Chaos", allright. Just not bearing marks on every other Marine, like you might find in the Black Legion or the Word Bearers. The Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion are all generally seen as less Chaotic, but even those three make pacts and try to gain some power from the dark gods.

 

 

The book was not about "the Night Lords". It was about a Night Lords warband.

. No it´s not. See point one. There was a lot of new background about Night Haunter, which affects ALL Night Lords, since Talos was allegedly the very best friend of Curze. Without references to a primarch making confidences, this book would have been perfect. Just take out "The Damned Company..." I talk about and put in "one warband of the Night Lords legion" and everything will be fine. But the information about Curze its in blatant contradiction with anything written before. It jarrs. So it´s "the Night Lords", as a whole, the matter of both the book and this topic.

I got the impression that A D-B perhaps wanted to "rectify" some of the notions from "Lord of the Night". In "Lord of the Night", Night Haunter had explained to Sahaal how they were used by the Emperor and then betrayed. In "Soul Hunter" we see a different Night Haunter. A D-B is diplomatic enough not to outright contradict everything that had been established in "Lord of the Night", but he thereby also may go in a similar direction in some instances. He could have distanced it more from the notions in "Lord of the Night" as far as I am concerned.

 

 

How can you say that, when it appears EVEN IN THE COVER OF THE BOOK WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?. Do you mean Night Hunter is old school too, and therefore outdated? How can the cover of a book be outdated when the book isn´t? I am confussed.

With "Old School For The Win" I meant that the old notion of it merely being armour decoration is preferable. :rolleyes:

 

As for the cover, I blame the artist. :o Maybe it is just because of the over-energized Lightning Claw? Or maybe that 's just his style. The boltgun muzzle flashes look like lihtning, the rain spattering from their armour looks like lightning.

 

I have seen a lot of negative reaction to the 4th Edition Codex Chaos description of how it is actual real lightning dancing across their armour. Seveal people preferred it to just have been armour decoration.

 

 

You didn´t say anything about Tsagualsa. The Screaming Gallery anyone? "i wish to walk once more on the screaming stairs, gaze once more at his throne.". If Ts is old school fluff, then Lord of the Night is old school fluff, since a lot of chapters begin with the words "On Tsagualsa, ...". See why I am so scared? Sometimes I see ADB as a CS Goto who has made a pact with some warp entity and got demonic powers. If CS Goto were such a good writer, all astartes would be using multilasers nowadays.

To be honest I was not sure what you were trying to get at. Do you wanted the corridors of their ship to be plastered with bones and flesh as well?

[Csm001]

Hi again.

 

Perhaps due to the light of a new morning, I barely see any flaw in your logic. It all boils down to changes I don´t like, but others do.

 

I will keep fighting for a while, just for the sake of it.

 

To be honest I was not sure what you were trying to get at. Do you wanted the corridors of their ship to be plastered with bones and flesh as well?

 

Well that would have been great, but no I was not trying to get at that.

If you read the old background about the death of Curze (Index Astartes, Lord of the Night), it all happens in Tsagualsa. Reread it (or google it) and you will find what I mean. I love the descriptions in Lord of the Night. That´s what chaos is about. They are not heroes doing great deeds, facing their enemies in search of a noble death. Chaos is Curze talking like a righteous man, chattering about justice and vindication, surrounded by his noble captains... and the brutally mutilated bodies of countless innocents in eternal pain, with their screams of terror a background for noble words.

 

Insane, isn´t it? This is NOT Sparta- This is Madness!! Chaos is a broken mind and a soul in flames. The rest of it, the battles, the brilliant fights, the duels, ... are nothing without this.

 

ADB is.... sane. He rewrote the event in a far more humanitarian, sane, poshy way. He took out the insanity by not making any reference to it. Since all that happens in Soul Hunter is heroic and brave and poshy too, I guess all references to something that chaotic were to be eliminated. So I did not want every ship plastered with bones and flesh, I wanted the place where Curze met his captains plastered with screaming living faces while they somehow manage to ignore them all and keep talking about justice and vindication. I insist: this is not about a warband or a ship, I am focusing on the scenes with Curze on them. That affects all Night Lords. And it change a lot of background. Background I loved. Now all Night Lords can talk about being Batman without the Joker inside them yelling for attention. They have lost half their heart. Did you read Heart of Darkness, the novel all this fluff is about? Mr Kurtz talks about justice with Marlow (M Sheen in Apocalypse Now) as they walk through the proof of his insanity. This is lost forever in W40K, I am afraid. And I found it brilliant.

 

However my nerd rage is almost out. Tsagualsa has been destroyed from the memory of men, the faces of the Screaming Gallery silent at last. Religious aspects in the Night Lords can be now summarize to "bah, just like any other chaos stupid renegades"... Any loyalist who want to play chaos for a while can now do it without polluting his soul, and with a legion no less.

 

Time to get over it.

I will miss my terror boys, and hope they have fun hunting squats.

 

EDIT:

ups:

With "Old School For The Win" I meant that the old notion of it merely being armour decoration is preferable. :lol:

I forgot this bit.

Sorry, I misinterpreted you. I am afraid my mind had the answer pat and didn´t read what you said.

Yeah you are right.

I don´t actually care that much about this point. My general ranting is about GW / Black Library changing background all the time. This change is OK for me. I feel it itches me because is surrounded by bigger changes.

[A D-B]

Hi again.

 

Perhaps due to the light of a new morning, I barely see any flaw in your logic. It all boils down to changes I don´t like, but others do.

 

I will keep fighting for a while, just for the sake of it.

 

To be honest I was not sure what you were trying to get at. Do you wanted the corridors of their ship to be plastered with bones and flesh as well?

 

Well that would have been great, but no I was not trying to get at that.

If you read the old background about the death of Curze (Index Astartes, Lord of the Night), it all happens in Tsagualsa. Reread it (or google it) and you will find what I mean. I love the descriptions in Lord of the Night. That´s what chaos is about. They are not heroes doing great deeds, facing their enemies in search of a noble death. Chaos is Curze talking like a righteous man, chattering about justice and vindication, surrounded by his noble captains... and the brutally mutilated bodies of countless innocents in eternal pain, with their screams of terror a background for noble words.

 

Insane, isn´t it? This is NOT Sparta- This is Madness!! Chaos is a broken mind and a soul in flames. The rest of it, the battles, the brilliant fights, the duels, ... are nothing without this.

 

ADB is.... sane. He rewrote the event in a far more humanitarian, sane, poshy way. He took out the insanity by not making any reference to it. Since all that happens in Soul Hunter is heroic and brave and poshy too, I guess all references to something that chaotic were to be eliminated. So I did not want every ship plastered with bones and flesh, I wanted the place where Curze met his captains plastered with screaming living faces while they somehow manage to ignore them all and keep talking about justice and vindication. I insist: this is not about a warband or a ship, I am focusing on the scenes with Curze on them. That affects all Night Lords. And it change a lot of background. Background I loved. Now all Night Lords can talk about being Batman without the Joker inside them yelling for attention. They have lost half their heart. Did you read Heart of Darkness, the novel all this fluff is about? Mr Kurtz talks about justice with Marlow (M Sheen in Apocalypse Now) as they walk through the proof of his insanity. This is lost forever in W40K, I am afraid. And I found it brilliant.

 

However my nerd rage is almost out. Tsagualsa has been destroyed from the memory of men, the faces of the Screaming Gallery silent at last. Religious aspects in the Night Lords can be now summarize to "bah, just like any other chaos stupid renegades"... Any loyalist who want to play chaos for a while can now do it without polluting his soul, and with a legion no less.

 

Time to get over it.

I will miss my terror boys, and hope they have fun hunting squats.

 

Legatus covered most of it perfectly, but I was actually going to try and answer a few points in detail until this post above. It's difficult when the exaggerations go from "They were nice people" to "All that happens in Soul Hunter is heroic and brave and poshy". So I'll keep it much briefer, because, well, I suspect no matter I or anyone says, your perspective is set. You don't want a debate, you wanted to rant. A lot of stuff is hyperbole, or exaggerated almost to nonsense. "Talos was Curze's best friend". Um...? Nope. One of many favoured chosen. Stated several times. I'm "like a CS Goto" in regards to how I deal with the license's lore/fluff/background. Thanks, man. That really makes me want to discuss this with you. How freaking kind.

 

I appreciate you liked Tsagualsa. I mean, in all seriousness, the thematic mirror to Kurtz is cool. The problem is, a magic castle made out of flesh isn't cool. It's a little bit silly. When I deal with Curze in the series, it'll be with a more realistic nod. Madness in this theatre should be subtle and/or horrifying, not "LOL CHAOS". Soul Hunter barely dealt with him at all, and that was on purpose. Talos and Curze weren't that close. As one of the chosen, Talos was around him a lot, but not exactly close to him. Curze wasn't close to many of his sons, really. He was something of a unique primarch in that regard.

 

As I said, I'd have gone into a lot more detail, but since your attitude kinda seems like, well:

 

I will keep fighting for a while, just for the sake of it.

 

...then I hope you'll at least understand that I'm not sure why I should. It sure as hell doesn't sound like any fun.

[A D-B]

Who am I kidding? I bet I'm back here before dinner.

[Captain Tezdal]

I agree with ADB about the whole palace bit, Curze shouldn't be scary because of his building materials, he should be scary because when a primarch jumps out of the shadows and rips face.....well that seems pretty damn scary. I'd leave the "LOL CHAOS" bit for something like....a World Eaters Novel. Also not sure why the op thinks the Lords' came off as good guys in the novel, they just didn't seem the usual chaos cult pwnzors marines, just renegade types doing their bit to bring down the corrupt Imperium.

[Csm001]

Hi Mr ADB, I like your book.

The family scene with Talos and his mother was great!. I close the book and opened it again when my heart started beating again.

 

Let´s begin!!

A lot of stuff is hyperbole, or exaggerated almost to nonsense.

Yeah you are 100% right.

I´m sorry if it feels wrong. It usually happens to me when I write about things I like. However I think hyperbole is quite a good tool when it comes to explain feelings. Focus on the content, not the container. Words are always bad containers... well, perhaps not for those who are like you. But I am not you, I do need my clumsy tools. Sorry if I go too far.

 

You don't want a debate, you wanted to rant.

You are 50% right. I want a debate, but I am sorry I have and will again fall in the nerd rage ranting hole. It´s really difficult not to. Clumsy tools again.

 

your perspective is set.

No it´s not. I love Tzeentch, so my perspective keeps changing all the time.

I´m OK with raptors now. I see your point. Your words and the words of others about Throne of Lies soothed my hurted soul.

I see the point of marks too.

I see I was wrong about the "hero-fair-play" point. Legatus talked wisely.

 

And the most important change: I see where is the heart of it. It was the Screaming Gallery all the time.

 

It all fits now: you want a more realistic nod to Curze. Therefore a magic castle is out. Humm, I miss the castle (I seriously think it´s cool), and this is a magic universe, but that´s not the point.

 

The point is that the castle (or a proper substitute) is needed here. Curze sounds well, he talks wisely. Walter Kurtz (Marlon Brando in the movie version, Night Haunter in the W40K approach) sounds well when he talks wisely about the same thing. But they are not sane. We have proof all around. And they are so insane that they try to make you agreed with them even in the middle of this proof. And they are so good in being leaders that they almost makes you think they were right all the time.

Total madness acting as total sanity is what Heart of Darkness, Apocalipse Now and Index Astartes – Bringer of Darkness are about. Lord of the Night does not say much about this subject, Spurrier was busy elsewhere. But the few words Spurrier wrote got the point. You skipped the subject. And you did it just in the point where the subject were paramount.

 

Scene

(M´Shen enters the gallery).

Night Haunter: blah blah blah vindication blah blah justice blah blah I was right blah.

Reader: what!? Are you blind and deaf? Don´t you see you are surrounded by the mutilated faces of millions of innocents? Don´t you hear the screams of terror? What justice are you talking about? You are the most INSANE character I have ever found!! Vindication!? Your atrocities are so big that you deserve to die a million times… And, by the way, you were right in everything you said. Truth and madness can join forces.

 

Does the end justify the mean?

Conrad (Joseph) offered us a masterpiece asking this question. And GW broadcasted it for us. Night Haunter was utterly insane. And he was right. Sometimes pure madness can be in the mind of someone who talks wisely. The Screaming Gallery IS the way NH insanity sprouts out his mind.

 

Mr ADB, you were asked an opinion about Conrad´s answer and just say nothing. I DO NOT play with toy soldiers, I play with ideas coming from the richest sci-fi universe ever. I am not saying anyone should care about the deep concepts right behind the surface of W40K. Spurrier lacked the will or the skill to add something to Conrad´s answer, but at least he broadcasted the idea. I think you have the skill to do it. But you didn´t (which is fine) saying that it doesn´t matter (which is not fine at all).

 

I miss the masterpiece you can do. And I am afraid you can do the same in the HH. I have been waiting soooo long.

 

I bet I'm back here before dinner.

That will be fantastic!

 

[Retarded child mode on]

Hey mama! I am talking with a successful writer!!

Yeah we are talking about magic castles big enough to act as spaceports, where my toy soldiers live.

Wo-hoo!!!

[/Retarded child mode off]

 

EDIT EDIT EDIT

My answer got so much time someone else appeared! Sorry!!

Wellcome, Captain Tezdal, nice to meet you!

 

Curze shouldn't be scary because of his building materials, he should be scary because when a primarch jumps out of the shadows and rips face.....well that seems pretty damn scary.

I respect your opinion... but do not share it. You are talking Friday the 13th. I am talking Heart of Darkness. I like Jason, but I want Kurz (Curze) too. And I do not feel the need of "Apocalipse Now II: now easier". And it is not the building material, is all the "truth may be insane" thing what terrifies me.

 

I'd leave the "LOL CHAOS" bit for something like....a World Eaters Novel.

WAIT WHAT!!!!!!!!

DO NOT TOUCH POOR WORLD EATERS!

Please start reading "After Desh´ea" (a short tale in Tales of Heresy, a Horus Heresy book) right now. Angron (and Khârn) are far deeper than you think. Read what the Emperor did to him. Read the reason Angron accepted join his army.

W40K background is never black and white. Well, maybe in some Black Library novels. Bad novels we will not talk about (Night Hunter is not a black and white novel, at all; I insist: it´s quite a good novel)

 

Also not sure why the op thinks the Lords' came off as good guys in the novel

They are good guys. In an environment such as theirs, I mean.

They do the better they can, and worry about it. This is not evil, nor insane. This is being "normal", perhaps even "good".

[Prokrustes]

Here we go:

 

Concerning the part about not being able to become a daemon prince without sucking up to a specific deity I must wonder how Lorgar and Perturabo did it?? Actually the chaos gods are just aspects of the greater whole so I guess it is utterly possible to become a daemon prince without a patron.

 

Concerning 3) of the OPs post I must admit I loved Tsagualsa too and having read the IA article on the Nightlords, Heart of Darkness and watched the movie Apocalypse Now I thought stuff like this is what the Night Lords are about. Sheer and utter terror! Like small children on a string outside the city walls....well..simply the horror legion. They were supposed to become monsters and they did become monsters. Concerning the "more realistic portrayal" well..there were real people who created lamps out of human skin, chairs out of human bones, clothes etc. And we are talking about "chaos and gods" which in a world where magic is tangible and real so....if one could create a building out of dead or living persons irl it should be absolutely possible if one can use magic to keep them alive.... Furthermore there are precedents for buildings decorated all over with human remains (kutnahora in prag for example, check youtube). It isnt really efficient but this isnt about efficiency... Then again, the book didnt live only by gruesome buildings...but it definately gave the NL vibe.

 

@4) The lightning...well..must admit I dont care much about the lightning but I remember having read somewhere that they could control it so it wouldnt not create any problems with stealth tactics and allows for some dramatic visuals (*total darkness, flash of lightning to shortly illuminate a bestial face,total darkness again*).

 

@5) Raptors are cool but they arent a legion of only raptors. Raptors got their own cults.

 

Now to the main point, 6):

I absolutely hate the fact that every chaos worshipper nowadays is a tragic hero or just misunderstood or a freedom fighter against the evil imperium. I liked the idea of the NL from IA them being monsters because that is what is/was needed to keep the imperium intact (see also Dark King) and then simply going over the top because they inducted the scum of the earth into the legion and the person who kept them in check got killed. Again I like the Heart of Darkness aspect. If I wanted tragic heroes Id go for the Thousand Sons. I also liked the fact that it wasnt utterly clear what they want and why they do what they do. The whole tragic hero stuff ppl keep on going about was what stopped me from completing my NL army together with the fact that when they turned to be tragic chaos worshipping heros everybody loved them, where before only a few evil madmen cared about the legion (was amongst the least popular legions) and Im still in search of a replacement. (*Maybe dark eldar...*) But I guess they were simply too dark for the 13 year olds..

The tragic part was Night Haunter knowing that his father would betray him and kill him since he was a small boy and living through it over and over again....his brothers hating him, blahblah, miserable live blah...visions of the future but only the worst outcomes..blahblah

Concerning the books I must say I love Lord of the Night (and the whole dialogues in the flashbacks etc.), I like Nightfall (in Heroes of the Space Marines), and even if Soul Hunter might be the greatest book that has ever been written for BL and ADB being the most awesome writer of BL ever, I guess I wont read it because I am not interested in this portrayal of the NL (I have heard alot about it and fought myself through all the praise threads that appeared shortly afterwards (a whole lot of praise threads...).

 

Last but not least, concerning the HH novel, well... I guess this will be what will create the final "new" image of the legion, which will be whatever ADB makes out of it. (As a side note, I dont like the HH novels at all because I have to compare them to the "old" fluff and well... it seems to me they strive to make everybody tragic in some way or another and have quiet a bunch of deus ex machina effects).

 

This isnt meant as a rant and Im not trying to question ADBs writing skills (actually I find it kinda sad that Soul Hunter doesnt interest me theme wise), its just my personal opinion on this subject and a bit support for CSM001.

 

Ave dominus nox!

[Legatus]

Concerning the part about not being able to become a daemon prince without sucking up to a specific deity I must wonder how Lorgar and Perturabo did it??

If one does not want to go fully exclusive for one of the big four, the usual solution is to worship Chaos as a pantheon or go with one of the lesser deities. In Lorgar's case it was obviously the former. Perturabo might have found a deity that was closer to his mind set than the big four.

 

 

I absolutely hate the fact that every chaos worshipper nowadays is a tragic hero or just misunderstood or a freedom fighter against the evil imperium.

Concerning the books I must say I love Lord of the Night

Somehow that seems at odds, seeing how the entire notion that the Night Lords were really only doing what the Emperor asked them to and were then betrayed by him when it did not suit him any longer originates from. That's pretty much the main reason why I did not like "Lord of the Night" very much. I think it was an ok book, and had some nice parts, but I just could not see past that notion of the wronged Night Lords who were driven to join Horus by the evil Emperor. Even though that notion got corrected and explained in the last Chapter, a lot of readers flat out rejected that clarification and still believed that the protagonost's deluded point of view was factual.

[Bulwyf]

Was I the only person who read the description of a fortress of living people and wondered how it actually worked? There was a wall of the dead of living souls being cemented into a living wall in the Forgotten Realm's afterlife for the God of the Dead for non believers which I always assumed was the inspiration behind Curze's playhouse of fun.

 

I can accept the existence of structures made of living people in a magical realm set in the afterlife. I mean, really, you already have magic as an excuse for how it works and secondly its in the afterlife. You don't have to wonder how it works. But in Warhammer 40k set in the real world (so to speak) how do you make a fortress of living people? Seriously? If it was made of corpses, sure, but living people?

 

And Legatus you know I completely disagree with your view on the ending of Lord of the Night. Even ADB agreed with me that a demon lord with an agenda is not a trustworthy source for the reader to depend on for the "real" truth. The ending of that book was explicitly set up to let the reader decide how true Sahaal's version was.

 

Speaking of this "wronged hero" I have no idea what the OP is talking about. Most Chaos Legions/characters are expressly evil to (IMO) a level of childish pandering to the reader's expectations of what "bad guys" are. It is refreshing to in fact read of Legions/character who really DID get screwed by the "good guys" and actually DO have a legit reason to be what they are.

 

I'd much rather be intellectually challenged by characters and novels that question who the "good guys" are than read yet another bland "RAWR CHAOS EVIL WORSHIP OR DIE" adaption of Chaos characters. But then again I love Glen Cook's "The Black Company" series which probably would blow people's minds on what "good" and "bad" guys are.

[Prokrustes]

I absolutely hate the fact that every chaos worshipper nowadays is a tragic hero or just misunderstood or a freedom fighter against the evil imperium.

Concerning the books I must say I love Lord of the Night

Somehow that seems at odds, seeing how the entire notion that the Night Lords were really only doing what the Emperor asked them to and were then betrayed by him when it did not suit him any longer originates from. That's pretty much the main reason why I did not like "Lord of the Night" very much. I think it was an ok book, and had some nice parts, but I just could not see past that notion of the wronged Night Lords who were driven to join Horus by the evil Emperor. Even though that notion got corrected and explained in the last Chapter, a lot of readers flat out rejected that clarification and still believed that the protagonost's deluded point of view was factual.

Ermh..in all honesty, I am not quiet sure what you are refering to from the end of the book because it has been a while. Mind helping my memory, please?

Sahaal being deluded, probably, but he and Krieg both are aspects of Kurtzes schizo mind. Thought the notion of the hypocritical emperor was already in IA II? However, even in the IA article Kurtze was very different from his "sons" in the mindset. They were psychopathic madmen (well, the later generations at least) where as he was pretty much Kurtze from Apocalypse Now with a touch of batman (not that fond of the batman touch).

The evil emperor part in Lord of the Night...well..could have been better but I guess personally I liked them most before any book about the Legion was written and there was only the IA article. Sahaal is a schizo psychopath with sadistic tendencies. Could be that I like him because he thinks he has a system in his madness.

To specify the "I love this book, I like that book,etc." It was meant as comparison. I really liked it but I like the IA article even more.

Concerning: "I absolutely hate the fact that every chaos worshipper nowadays is a tragic hero or just misunderstood or a freedom fighter against the evil imperium." I didnt mean no chaos worshipper can be that way, but it seems to me that it has been overdone a while ago.

[Prokrustes]

Was I the only person who read the description of a fortress of living people and wondered how it actually worked? There was a wall of the dead of living souls being cemented into a living wall in the Forgotten Realm's afterlife for the God of the Dead for non believers which I always assumed was the inspiration behind Curze's playhouse of fun.

 

I can accept the existence of structures made of living people in a magical realm set in the afterlife. I mean, really, you already have magic as an excuse for how it works and secondly its in the afterlife. You don't have to wonder how it works. But in Warhammer 40k set in the real world (so to speak) how do you make a fortress of living people? Seriously? If it was made of corpses, sure, but living people?

Wh40K set in the real world? With daemons and ghosts in suits and gods that interact with you on a regular base? With chaos SORCERORS? On how to make a building (not a fortress) out of living people without magic...well..in theory it would be possible if you can finish it fast enough. Certain impaling techniques kept you alive for about a week and crucifiction could also keep you alive quiet a while as long as you received water. However, I wont go into detail about how you would have to do it. If you really wanna know that get some books on medieval torture techniques, ancient torture techniques and human anatomy. The part with the carpet of moaning faces is, without magic, rather difficult to do. But it would theoretically be more or less possible (if you add some poles or so to keep it stable) to build a structure out of living people. Keeping each and everyone of them alive over a longer period might, however, prove rather difficult without magic.

[Legatus]

IIRC Night Haunter had told in Sahaal that the Night Lords had allways acted under the Emperor's orders, and were only acting out his will. But when they became a liability for his good reputation, and long before the Heresy he tried to queitly get rid of them and had sent numerous Assassins after Night Haunter.

 

This is at odds with the Index Astartes description, where first it had been the other Primarchs that had acted against Night Haunter when he had attacked Dorn. After that incident Night Haunter cracked and first destroyed Nostramo and then went on a mindless rampage through the Imperium. That was when, according to the Index Astartes, the Emperor was notified of Night Haunters actions, and he ordered the Night Haunter to come to Terra to be held accountable. But that was when the Heresy started, so that was not to be. When half the Callidus Temple was mobilised to kill Night Haunter, he had already sided with Horus.

 

At the end of "Lord of the Night" Krieg Acerbus mocks Sahaal because he had believed in the story Night Haunter had told him to keep him compliant. The explanation at the end of "Lord of the Night" is not more credible because Krieg Acerbus is more credible than Sahaal. It is because Krieg Acerbus is confirming that the background we had been told in the Codices and Index Astartes articles was the actual truth, while Sahaals beliefs were at odds with that traditional background.

 

Essentially, a lot of readers chose to take Sahaals account as retconing the Night Lords background, while Acerbus, to them, was just a mischievous Chaos worshiper not to be trusted, even though he was confirming the earlier background. But that had been retconned by Sahaals account, hadn't it?

Well, the other point of view is that the background is the same it has allways been (well, since 2nd Edition anyway), and Sahaal had indeed been intentionally misinformed by Night Haunter, just like Acerbus is mocking him for.

[Bulwyf]

IIRC Night Haunter had told in Sahaal that the Night Lords had allways acted under the Emperor's orders, and were only acting out his will. But when they became a liability for his good reputation, and long before the Heresy he tried to queitly get rid of them and had sent numerous Assassins after Night Haunter.

 

This is at odds with the Index Astartes description, where first it had been the other Primarchs that had acted against Night Haunter when he had attacked Dorn. After that incident Night Haunter cracked and first destroyed Nostramo and then went on a mindless rampage through the Imperium. That was when, according to the Index Astartes, the Emperor was notified of Night Haunters actions, and he ordered the Night Haunter to come to Terra to be held accountable. But that was when the Heresy started, so that was not to be. When half the Callidus Temple was mobilised to kill Night Haunter, he had already sided with Horus.

 

At the end of "Lord of the Night" Krieg Acerbus mocks Sahaal because he had believed in the story Night Haunter had told him to keep him compliant. The explanation at the end of "Lord of the Night" is not more credible because Krieg Acerbus is more credible than Sahaal. It is because Krieg Acerbus is confirming that the background we had been told in the Codices and Index Astartes articles was the actual truth, while Sahaals beliefs were at odds with that traditional background.

 

Essentially, a lot of readers chose to take Sahaals account as retconing the Night Lords background, while Acerbus, to them, was just a mischievous Chaos worshiper not to be trusted, even though he was confirming the earlier background. But that had been retconned by Sahaals account, hadn't it?

Well, the other point of view is that the background is the same it has allways been (well, since 2nd Edition anyway), and Sahaal had indeed been intentionally misinformed by Night Haunter, just like Acerbus is mocking him for.

 

All Krieg did was "confirm" since he was an unreliable source it is impossible to take his statements at face value that Night Haunter had a split personality and that one side was "good" and one side was "evil". It is more than reasonable to assume the "good" side of Curze could believe he was a martyr while the "evil" side knew the real truth of the matter. Sahaal not having experienced this split personality himself as we are led to believe Krieg did is yet another clue (IMO) that the reader can believe or disbelieve either account of what "really" happened. Sahaal could easily have been "lied" to by one personality and never suspected accordingly.

 

Or Krieg simply made up the entire thing, Sahaal was correct, and Krieg was engaging in mind tricks to throw off a character he was literally moments away from trying to kill. It is up to the reader to decide.

[Bulwyf]

Was I the only person who read the description of a fortress of living people and wondered how it actually worked? There was a wall of the dead of living souls being cemented into a living wall in the Forgotten Realm's afterlife for the God of the Dead for non believers which I always assumed was the inspiration behind Curze's playhouse of fun.

 

I can accept the existence of structures made of living people in a magical realm set in the afterlife. I mean, really, you already have magic as an excuse for how it works and secondly its in the afterlife. You don't have to wonder how it works. But in Warhammer 40k set in the real world (so to speak) how do you make a fortress of living people? Seriously? If it was made of corpses, sure, but living people?

Wh40K set in the real world? With daemons and ghosts in suits and gods that interact with you on a regular base? With chaos SORCERORS? On how to make a building (not a fortress) out of living people without magic...well..in theory it would be possible if you can finish it fast enough. Certain impaling techniques kept you alive for about a week and crucifiction could also keep you alive quiet a while as long as you received water. However, I wont go into detail about how you would have to do it. If you really wanna know that get some books on medieval torture techniques, ancient torture techniques and human anatomy. The part with the carpet of moaning faces is, without magic, rather difficult to do. But it would theoretically be more or less possible (if you add some poles or so to keep it stable) to build a structure out of living people. Keeping each and everyone of them alive over a longer period might, however, prove rather difficult without magic.

 

You know what I mean. 40k is set in a non "magic explains everything" universe. It would take a leap from science into magic to explain an entire fortress being made solely of living people for how it could exist. I don't need to consult my two degrees in history to look up torture techniques on how long a human being can withstand extreme torture.

[Csm001]

@Prokrustes

Thanks for your support, brother. I hear so many praises for Night Hunter that your words are like gold.

 

How did I miss Lorgar and Perturabo?

 

I liked Nightfall too. I recommend it to anyone here. Heroes of the Spaces Marines is a really good compilation. Many many good stories. The returning of Malal (another god of chaos, previously squated), by Richard Ford, a really good story about the Black Legion, by Dylan Owen, or that one about the Crimson Fists. Quite well written this one, the last one of the book. It really leave you with a good taste in the mouth. Makes you keep track on the author.

 

Concerning Tsagualsa: there are many precedents of this “art” both in fantasy and in reality. You just Google it and you get shocked with what humanity has done in this matter. Please get this: real world has got its own Tsagualsas, many of them. Of course at least people die soon. And if we start talking about fantasy, then there are countless examples. Do somebody wants a list?

And if somebody need a real example used as an abstract concept, think about the Battle of Thermopylae. Leonidas and the 300 got their own Tsagualsa too. And it has a meaning. It is not a wall made of human flesh, but a message. You send people to kill people. Your people do not come back, so you go and find a wall… made of the people you sent. And remember: probably the wall didn´t exist and it was just a legend. It is not a wall, but a tool to teach.

And then again, Tsagualsa is cool (imho) but just a way of giving us an idea. For me, the Screaming Gallery are the screams of the countless innocents Curze killed. I would have been happy if Tsagualsa was reduced to an abstract concept. Though I must admit it is difficult to find an adecuate alternative.

 

Last but not least, concerning the HH novel, well... I guess this will be what will create the final "new" image of the legion, which will be whatever ADB makes out of it. (As a side note, I dont like the HH novels at all because I have to compare them to the "old" fluff and well... it seems to me they strive to make everybody tragic in some way or another and have quiet a bunch of deus ex machina effects).

Sad but true.

You get in love with a background, GW / an author from BL changes the background and you feel betrayed. Most people really like thinks… easier.

 

Hi Legatus.

I absolutely hate the fact that every chaos worshipper nowadays is a tragic hero or just misunderstood or a freedom fighter against the evil imperium.

Concerning the books I must say I love Lord of the Night

Somehow that seems at odds, seeing how the entire notion that the Night Lords were really only doing what the Emperor asked them to and were then betrayed by him when it did not suit him any longer originates from. That's pretty much the main reason why I did not like "Lord of the Night" very much. I think it was an ok book, and had some nice parts, but I just could not see past that notion of the wronged Night Lords who were driven to join Horus by the evil Emperor. Even though that notion got corrected and explained in the last Chapter, a lot of readers flat out rejected that clarification and still believed that the protagonost's deluded point of view was factual.

 

That´s EXACTLY what the Screaming Gallery explains. A lot of readers rejected what they wanted to reject, but all this “the Emperor betrayed us” is said “On Tsagualsa”. They are literally surrounded by their atrocities and their madness. I think Spurrier got it right: they were like “we are not monsters! All we want is respect!” just at the same the screams surrounded them.

I know people do not see that way, and it actually makes me sad. The book is like: “we are not monsters – said the warrior, outraged, while he smashed the little baby against the wall- just misunderstood heros”. And people just assimilate “wow, so they are not monsters, just misunderstood heros”. Reread it: every time Sahaal remember something to get outraged about, you will find a sentence beginning with these two words: “on Tsagualsa…”. Put in your mind countless innocent people screaming their souls out and keep reading.

It was the same in Apocalipse Now. W40K background is, somehow, a puzzle: you need one piece to see another one properly. Like a Lament Configuration (this is off-topic, but I can´t remember which is the favourite building material for cenobites; concrete? sand? human flesh keep alive with magic to eternally scream their pain? I just don´t remember).

 

Hi Bulwif. Nice to meet you.

 

I can accept the existence of structures made of living people in a magical realm set in the afterlife. I mean, really, you already have magic as an excuse for how it works and secondly its in the afterlife. You don't have to wonder how it works. But in Warhammer 40k set in the real world (so to speak) how do you make a fortress of living people? Seriously? If it was made of corpses, sure, but living people?

 

OK, I don´t get it. This is W40K. Want examples?

1) What about Anthony Reynolds trilogy about Word Bearers? They got their own Screaming Gallery in every ship. And which building material they used in that big tower they built?

2) What about Ben Counter trilogy about Grey Knights? Read the first chapter and you will see that Ghargatuloth loves Tsagualsa too.

There are many examples but you got the idea. In W40K chaos LOVES to build things with people, and it works because… just because. Even in Dawn of War, the videogame, just zoom to most of the csm buildings and you will see it.

Mr ADB thinks it is childish and I am OK with that. But it blatantly goes against any other previous stuff from chaos.

 

Most Chaos Legions/characters are expressly evil to (IMO) a level of childish pandering to the reader's expectations of what "bad guys" are. It is refreshing to in fact read of Legions/character who really DID get screwed by the "good guys" and actually DO have a legit reason to be what they are.

So we agreed then? I was complaining about too much simplicity, didn´t I? Too much “black and white”, demons and heros…

And I am not saying Curze was “evil”. He was insane. Not the same.

 

Dinner´s time! Where is my cake?

[Lay]

You know what I mean. 40k is set in a non "magic explains everything" universe. It would take a leap from science into magic to explain an entire fortress being made solely of living people for how it could exist.

40k isn't hard science fiction, it's science fantasy. Some of its more fantastic elements may have some light techno-blabber behind them, while others don't - but almost all of them fall apart if you question them. The flesh castle shouldn't be a problem because it is implausible.

[Csm001]

Hi Lay. Lot of Night Lords here.

 

Two more points with Bulwif.

40k is set in a non "magic explains everything" universe.

Uh. I don´t know what to say. This is a shocking new. You sure?

Just kidding, I got the point brother Bulwif is making here. And he is right. Logic. There are rules in W40K and they must be obeyed. To a certain degree, yeah he is totally right. Let´s try to explain how the impossible happen. Look here brothers:

Every single time chaos touch reality it changes reality. Souls do live eternally in the Inmaterium and you cannot die (due to the warp true nature). This is many many times used for chaos to create emotions (pain, terror, despair) is a way you can not reach without chaos, just because the subject you are sacrificing dies. And emotions are energy in the warp.

The Screaming Gallery existed because Night Lords had been touched by chaos. It is proof of a well developed gate to the Inmaterium in Tsagualsa. To all effects this planet was, to a certain degree, a demon world. At least the palace / fortress.

Read Anthony Reynolds Dark Apostle. They do the same thing. They build a tower to create a demon world.

Important point: why? Why did Curze wasted a lot of energies to get a massive amount of warp energy? What was he trying to do? Did he successed?

 

Or Krieg simply made up the entire thing, Sahaal was correct, and Krieg was engaging in mind tricks to throw off a character he was literally moments away from trying to kill. It is up to the reader to decide.

100% right.

Lord of the Night do not give a single piece of 100% solid background for anything. It is up to the reader. It is hard to use it as material to argue about anything. I know it, I have been trying for the last two days. ButI love it. I like to decide the meaning of what I read. This is a challenge I love. On the other side, I dislike when changes in the background are forced to you.

 

Brother Lay: do you know which aspect of W40K is, imho, the most difficult to justify? Tactics. People who actually like to read about war read something W40K and they LOL till they puke.

[Legatus]

Or Krieg simply made up the entire thing, Sahaal was correct, and Krieg was engaging in mind tricks to throw off a character he was literally moments away from trying to kill. It is up to the reader to decide.

100% right.

Lord of the Night do not give a single piece of 100% solid background for anything. It is up to the reader.

Is it also up to the reader to decide that the Night Lords Index Astartes is wrong and overruled by a Black Library novel, even though a charcter in that novel acually agrees with the Index Astartes account?

[A D-B]

This thread has now reached a level of actually giving me a headache, and I'm not sure what to reply to. I just wanted to make something clear, though.

 

Or Krieg simply made up the entire thing, Sahaal was correct, and Krieg was engaging in mind tricks to throw off a character he was literally moments away from trying to kill. It is up to the reader to decide.

100% right.

Lord of the Night do not give a single piece of 100% solid background for anything. It is up to the reader.

Is it also up to the reader to decide that the Night Lords Index Astartes is wrong and overruled by a Black Library novel, even though a charcter in that novel acually agrees with the Index Astartes account?

 

As far as I know, my opinion has never really changed on this point. The entire point of Lord of the Night wasn't to inspire doubt; it was that Sahaal was wrong. The published canonical background states that he's wrong, and the reason Sahaal is interesting as a tragic character is that he's incorrect, and has allowed himself to be deceived. I know I've said that on this forum (and others) a bajillion times, but I wanted to reiterate that again, because I saw a mention or two of "Aaron said X."

 

I mean, while my opinion is no more valid than anyone's, in this case it was a fairly obvious literary choice. Sahaal was wrong (we know it, because the canon background so far states he was wrong) and he was an Unreliable Narrator, with a tragic end to his tale.

 

As with Sahaal, Talos is similarly "against" actual Night Lords canon, to a degree. He believes there's something deeper and truer in the Legion's degeneration, and that the Emperor sinned against them. Most of First Claw (and the other Claws, and the rest of the Legion) don't see it as he does, or simply don't care. Those are tensions that will come to pass over the course of the series, as well as a lot more about Curze, his interactions with the Legion, and his death. After all, with 3-6 books loosely planned in my skull, I didn't want to blow everything in the first book. That would be like putting Helm's Deep, Pelennor Fields and the death of Sauron in The Fellowship of the Ring, or something. These things take time, yo.

[Csm001]

Hi Mr ADB!

 

Too busy to answer back properly (oh how I HATE real life). I will just drop some food for your headache and go.

 

I have been trying to link Night Lords to greek mithology. I knew there was something about buildings made with human bones and the Terror God there.

 

I found the reference of Cycnus, but in the English sources (wikipedia) he worshipped Khorne (Ares), not Deimos (the god of Terror, second son of Khorne).

From the page about Ares: “There are accounts of a son of Ares, Cycnus (Κύκνος) of Macedonia, who was so murderous that he tried to build a temple with the skulls and the bones of travellers. Heracles slaughtered this abominable monstrosity, engendering the wrath of Ares, whom Heracles wounded.” (just because the Emperor shield him just before getting smashed and Khorne got a What The ... moment big hero treacherously took advantage of, as you can read elsewhere).

 

From the page about Cycnus: his bone-built temple was never completed.

Awww, poor poor Cycnus.

 

However, in the Spanish version of the page about Cycnus (I am Spanish: this is the shameful origin of my terrible terrible English grammar) Cicno is not a World Eater. He belongs to the Night Legion.

“Otro hijo de Ares, Cicno, rey de Tesalia, asesinaba a todos los extranjeros aque acudían a su corte con el fin de construir con sus cráneos un sacrílego templo para su hermano Deimos.”

Yeah! If you read Spanish, you now know how to worship Terror itself: build a little Tsagualsa. We now know what was Curze behind.

 

More food, just a dessert: Leonidas the Spartan (300, Thermopylae), the one with the funny Tsagualsa wall, got a God pictured in his shield (I mean the real Leonidas). It was not Ares/Khorne. I must admit it was not Deimos/Terror neither. It was Phobos, first son of Ares, God of Fear. I am having issues with this God of Terror / God of Fear thingy-

 

Wow, ancient mithology is worst than Lord of the Night when searching references. Everyone contradicts everything all the time.

 

More later.

[Piousservant]

Was I the only person who read the description of a fortress of living people and wondered how it actually worked? There was a wall of the dead of living souls being cemented into a living wall in the Forgotten Realm's afterlife for the God of the Dead for non believers which I always assumed was the inspiration behind Curze's playhouse of fun.

 

I can accept the existence of structures made of living people in a magical realm set in the afterlife. I mean, really, you already have magic as an excuse for how it works and secondly its in the afterlife. You don't have to wonder how it works. But in Warhammer 40k set in the real world (so to speak) how do you make a fortress of living people? Seriously? If it was made of corpses, sure, but living people?

 

I always thought/assumed that Tsagualsa was in the Eye of Terror (a kind of magical afterlife-like place), much like all the other oddball Legion planets (Merengard - the Iron Warriors planet that I've probably spelt wrong, for instance or the Planet of Sorcerers). In fact, I have to admit that I'm one of those who really liked the concept of Tsagualsa , not just because of the Heart of Darkness/Curze parallels, but I always saw it more as something with Giger-esk weirdness (which seemed oddly appropriate) rather than "Chaos LOL"...

 

 

Speaking of this "wronged hero" I have no idea what the OP is talking about. Most Chaos Legions/characters are expressly evil to (IMO) a level of childish pandering to the reader's expectations of what "bad guys" are. It is refreshing to in fact read of Legions/character who really DID get screwed by the "good guys" and actually DO have a legit reason to be what they are.

 

I'd much rather be intellectually challenged by characters and novels that question who the "good guys" are than read yet another bland "RAWR CHAOS EVIL WORSHIP OR DIE" adaption of Chaos characters. But then again I love Glen Cook's "The Black Company" series which probably would blow people's minds on what "good" and "bad" guys are.

 

 

I guess you haven't been reading the Horus Heresy series... Where even the World Eaters are "wronged heroes"... ^_^

 

I like complex characters as much as the next person, but when EVERY Legion seems to have some variant on being "betrayed" or otherwise "wronged" it starts to get a bit bland itself, I think ADB has posted on that subject before. To me the Night Lords are one of the Legions which really does not fit into the "wrong heroes" box, unlike say the Thousand Sons.

[Bulwyf]

Was I the only person who read the description of a fortress of living people and wondered how it actually worked? There was a wall of the dead of living souls being cemented into a living wall in the Forgotten Realm's afterlife for the God of the Dead for non believers which I always assumed was the inspiration behind Curze's playhouse of fun.

 

I can accept the existence of structures made of living people in a magical realm set in the afterlife. I mean, really, you already have magic as an excuse for how it works and secondly its in the afterlife. You don't have to wonder how it works. But in Warhammer 40k set in the real world (so to speak) how do you make a fortress of living people? Seriously? If it was made of corpses, sure, but living people?

 

I always thought/assumed that Tsagualsa was in the Eye of Terror (a kind of magical afterlife-like place), much like all the other oddball Legion planets (Merengard - the Iron Warriors planet that I've probably spelt wrong, for instance or the Planet of Sorcerers). In fact, I have to admit that I'm one of those who really liked the concept of Tsagualsa , not just because of the Heart of Darkness/Curze parallels, but I always saw it more as something with Giger-esk weirdness (which seemed oddly appropriate) rather than "Chaos LOL"...

 

 

Speaking of this "wronged hero" I have no idea what the OP is talking about. Most Chaos Legions/characters are expressly evil to (IMO) a level of childish pandering to the reader's expectations of what "bad guys" are. It is refreshing to in fact read of Legions/character who really DID get screwed by the "good guys" and actually DO have a legit reason to be what they are.

 

I'd much rather be intellectually challenged by characters and novels that question who the "good guys" are than read yet another bland "RAWR CHAOS EVIL WORSHIP OR DIE" adaption of Chaos characters. But then again I love Glen Cook's "The Black Company" series which probably would blow people's minds on what "good" and "bad" guys are.

 

 

I guess you haven't been reading the Horus Heresy series... Where even the World Eaters are "wronged heroes"... :huh:

 

I like complex characters as much as the next person, but when EVERY Legion seems to have some variant on being "betrayed" or otherwise "wronged" it starts to get a bit bland itself, I think ADB has posted on that subject before. To me the Night Lords are one of the Legions which really does not fit into the "wrong heroes" box, unlike say the Thousand Sons.

 

I've read all the HH out in print except for "Nemesis" which I have but its waiting behind two other BL books before I read it.

 

The only "wronged" Legions I've seen so far are the Alpha Legion and Thousand Sons. Alpha Legion isn't even a real "Traitor" Legion because the Old Ones revealed to them the possible futures and they followed the path to the less suffering for all involved. Of course it didn't work out but they didn't know it at the time. The Thousand Sons were just exploring their psy powers and the whole Council deal was flat out wrong. It also didn't help that it sure seems that the Emperor was going to use Magnus the whole time as the living battery in the Golden Throne and was manipulating him to that end before it blew it up in the Emperor's face.

 

But as for the rest? Horus went traitor and his Legion followed him, Angron went traitor out of jealousy, Perturabo went traitor out of spite and pride, Logar is the only true blue Chaos believer, etc. The only other Legion that seems to have any kind of sympathetic reasons for why they turned would be the Night Lords and that's if the whole Emperor used them as terror shock troops and wanted to get rid of them when it became politically expedient to do so. Note the if in that previous sentence.

 

I never assumed Tsagualsa was in the EoT. It was my understanding that it was on the eastern fringe of the galaxy. I also dispute posts prior to this one I am quoting that suggest the "living fortress" is acceptable because its Chaos inspired. The Night Lords don't really believe in Chaos in terms of open worship and certainly not at that time in history. Why would Curze use Chaos magic to make a living fortress when his whole point of dying there was to prove a point to his father? Seems counter productive. The other examples provided are from out and out Chaos worshipping Legions or warbands. They are using Chaos magic which is how their living structures work. Again, its magic as an excuse for how they can do it.

 

I just don't see how you can use Chaos magic as an excuse for how Tsagualsa was built when it was from a Primarch and Legion that didn't use Chaos at least at that time in history.