58 replies to this topic

[maverike_prime]

You forgot dark angels maverike, but thats not a real codex anyway.

My bad, But still, that helps make my point.

[Lexington]

You can't make legion speccific armies any more. I mean sure I can take 2 Vindicators and a trio of Oblits and slap some Boltgun metal paint on 'em and call 'em Iron warriors. Or I could toss 'em in Regal Blue, paint some lightning bolts on 'em and call 'em Night Lords.

So...you've now made your Legion-specific armies. What's the problem?

You can't even really build Cult Marine armies either. I mean yeah, I can take 6 units of Berzerkers and have them lead by a Lord with Mark of Khorne... but it's not really a World Eaters army then.

That is, in fact, the definition of a World Eaters army. It is made exclusively of World Eaters. Gah.

Topics like this drive me batty. I swear, it's like the 3.5 Codex was a mutant virus that devoured the imagination of every single Chaos player since its release.

Edited by Lexington, 20 September 2010 - 11:43 AM.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

You can't make legion speccific armies any more. I mean sure I can take 2 Vindicators and a trio of Oblits and slap some Boltgun metal paint on 'em and call 'em Iron warriors. Or I could toss 'em in Regal Blue, paint some lightning bolts on 'em and call 'em Night Lords.

So...you've now made your Legion-specific armies. What's the problem?

You can't even really build Cult Marine armies either. I mean yeah, I can take 6 units of Berzerkers and have them lead by a Lord with Mark of Khorne... but it's not really a World Eaters army then.

That is, in fact, the definition of a World Eaters army. It is made exclusively of World Eaters. Gah.

Topics like this drive me batty. I swear, it's like the 3.5 Codex was a mutant virus that devoured the imagination of every single Chaos player since its release.

I don't think that it's our imaginations that have gone away. The problem (In my eyes anyway) is that because GW has removed so much of the "playable personality" of the Chaos Legions all of our new players, who have no experience with the old codexes, are learning the wrong things (fluff wise).

The four cult armies should be different than other armies, just like the various undivided legions should be different. A Khorne exclusive army is NOT a Worldeaters army. Running 3 Heavy choices does NOT make an army Iron Warriors. Does taking 3 Speeder squadrons and Chapter Master on a bike make you Ravenwing, NO. Does taking lots of Sternguard make you Crimson Fists, NO. Does putting a squad with a Chaplain in a Crusader make you Black Templar, NO.

A thing to remember too, is that all of our undivided (chaos glory) legions are original foundings, not successor chapters. They were as unique before the heresey as Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels are now. It's not like everyone went into a giant melting pot after the siege on Terra. For the most part legions would have stuck together, even if it was only a small band of them. You wouldn't find squads from several legions all hanging out together for any significant length of time. Heck, loyalist legions don't really like mixing with each other (my tactics are better than yours!) so why should Chaos be any different.

[A D-B]

A thing to remember too, is that all of our undivided (chaos glory) legions are original foundings, not successor chapters. They were as unique before the heresey as Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels are now. It's not like everyone went into a giant melting pot after the siege on Terra. For the most part legions would have stuck together, even if it was only a small band of them. You wouldn't find squads from several legions all hanging out together for any significant length of time. Heck, loyalist legions don't really like mixing with each other (my tactics are better than yours!) so why should Chaos be any different.

A Chaos army isn't any different. That's sort of the point. When you see the mixed armies in the pictures in the codex, they're part of a temporary raiding group, or a crusade against the Imperium - those are the times Chaos Marines do unite. They're warbands formed (for a while) from smaller warbands, almost like tiny Chapters working together, or squads from different companies fighting together.

Chaos has the realistic option for different Chapters/Legions to unite in a warband, which makes it pretty unique.They can set aside their hatred and stop killing each other in order to unite for short-term warfare. But naw, mostly, a warband is just a mono-Legion (or mono-God) deal.

[Piousservant]

You can't make legion speccific armies any more. I mean sure I can take 2 Vindicators and a trio of Oblits and slap some Boltgun metal paint on 'em and call 'em Iron warriors. Or I could toss 'em in Regal Blue, paint some lightning bolts on 'em and call 'em Night Lords.

So...you've now made your Legion-specific armies. What's the problem?

The problem...? That if I wanted to play a game where the only difference between the armies was the paint job, I'd play chess maybe?

The thing is, I think a lot of 40k players (not all, such as yourself, but a lot of us) like special rules. I'll hold my hand up, guilty as charged. Even though I know it doesn't really make much sense (especially as I'm not much of a gamer and much more into the background which is where the real differences are). I can't help it though, I like my armies to have special rules - not necessarily to make them better but to make them different.

I'd like my Iron Warriors Warsmith to actually have a Servo-Arm, even though it makes diddly difference really. But I still want it! We used to have it and now it's gone, so of course people are going to complain about it.

You can't even really build Cult Marine armies either. I mean yeah, I can take 6 units of Berzerkers and have them lead by a Lord with Mark of Khorne... but it's not really a World Eaters army then.

That is, in fact, the definition of a World Eaters army. It is made exclusively of World Eaters. Gah.

Topics like this drive me batty. I swear, it's like the 3.5 Codex was a mutant virus that devoured the imagination of every single Chaos player since its release.

Ok, so my Thousand Sons troops choices are Thousand Sons, but my Terminators with an Icon of Tzeentch aren't Thousand Sons Terminators, are they? Obviously not because they're equivilent to Marines with an Icon of Tzeentch which is not the same as my Thousand Sons marines.


ADB - I know what you're saying but I think the problem is not just that most people prefer to use the Legions/Chapters/Craftworlds/Klans/etc that are in the background (after all if there is all this rich background material already existing, what would be the point in it if we didn't use it) - but also that *most* people like their army to have a strong cohesive identity - that is mono-God/mono-Legion - rather than a mixed up force made up of different Legions. I think the current Codex fails to provide satisfaction on both points which is what people dislike about it.

And, yes, "we're all friends now" is a little bit daft - like my chess comment above - but thats what you get when people get upset.

Edited by Piousservant, 20 September 2010 - 02:47 PM.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Ok, so my Thousand Sons troops choices are Thousand Sons, but my Terminators with an Icon of Tzeentch aren't Thousand Sons Terminators, are they? Obviously not because they're equivilent to Marines with an Icon of Tzeentch which is not the same as my Thousand Sons marines.

And, yes, "we're all friends now" is a little bit daft - like my chess comment above - but thats what you get when people get upset.

I think that's a good point. Just having an Icon doesn't really make a unit "cult" now does it?

And yes, "we're all friends now" was put in to show my displeasure at how much things had been changed. I don't actually think that Khorne and Slaanesh sit around drinking and swapping stories.

[the jeske]

A Chaos army isn't any different. That's sort of the point. When you see the mixed armies in the pictures in the codex, they're part of a temporary raiding group, or a crusade against the Imperium - those are the times Chaos Marines do unite. They're warbands formed (for a while) from smaller warbands, almost like tiny Chapters working together, or squads from different companies fighting together.

0k now you are a GW writer so I probably should argue , specialy as GW can make any change to fluff they make .
But are we realy making armies that that are "for one battle" ? because I always though that most people play with more or less the same armies most of the time . They play legion X or Y . the part of the tiny chapters etc thats what 3-4 companies x 2-3 renegade chapters. thats around 1000 csm , how many times do we play games with 1k space marines on the table ?
I understand the mixing of cults or marks/icons [am trying not to think here about how crap icon rules are in the new dex] , specialy in a BL force. But if all chaos legions/warbands/renegade chapters mix all the time then what is so special about BL ? how is abadons abilty to unite different god troops and legions under his banner something special , if any chaos warlord can do the same ? Or is it the case of abadon being the spirtual lieg of all csm , and all csm including the legion guys throwing away their way of seeing things and trying to be as BL as possible ?

Chaos has the realistic option for different Chapters/Legions to unite in a warband, which makes it pretty unique.They can set aside their hatred and stop killing each other in order to unite for short-term warfare. But naw, mostly, a warband is just a mono-Legion (or mono-God) deal.

only outside of BL it has never happened outside of company level [at leat not in the fluff prior to the happy family of gav thorpe] or one time joining [and even then it almost always ended with one side screwing the other side].



Ah and to all those who say that 3.5 was killing the imagination of players . I could have builed 5 different demon bombs, working gunlines at ouf at least 5 legions [and they wouldnt be carbon copies of each other] , at least 3 versions of infiltration builds + tons of low tier or oddball armies like 1ksons , biker , syren prince builds etc.
the new dex gives what ? mecha , LR rush and if someone is crazy enough he can play either chaozylla or EC water warrior and that is it . game play difference betwen an army runing cult units and csm units is minimal[with the difference that cult units are more efficient] . I cant build a demon bomb , I can build an infiltration list, I cant build a biker/raptor force and unlike in 3.5 it doesnt matter if I play AL or NL or IW as each and everyone of them looks freaking the same.

[Legatus]

A Chaos army isn't any different. That's sort of the point. When you see the mixed armies in the pictures in the codex, they're part of a temporary raiding group, or a crusade against the Imperium - those are the times Chaos Marines do unite. They're warbands formed (for a while) from smaller warbands, almost like tiny Chapters working together, or squads from different companies fighting together.

0k now you are a GW writer so I probably should argue , specialy as GW can make any change to fluff they make .
But are we realy making armies that that are "for one battle" ? because I always though that most people play with more or less the same armies most of the time .

In 40K, "temporary" can easily mean a couple of hundred years. Your warband might have fought with a squad of Berserkers for the past decade, but it doesn't really work out anymore, so now they have to part ways. I play an Ultramarines 2nd Company, but I do not really play them in a time span of 10.000 years. I pretty much consider my games to take place "now", in 999.M41. It would not be a problem to use the same Chaos army list all teh time, even if that represented only a very short term colaborative effort. (But seriously, allways the same army list? I couldn't do that...)

But if all chaos legions/warbands/renegade chapters mix all the time then what is so special about BL ? how is abadons abilty to unite different god troops and legions under his banner something special , if any chaos warlord can do the same ?

On the table? No difference at all. Whether the Berserkers you field are permanently an asset of your own Legion because you play Black Legion, or whether they are a short term allied unit of World Eaters because you play Night Lords does not really make a difference. They are Berserkers, and they are fighting for you. In the background, there is a difference. The Black legion has their own Berserkers. The Night Lords do not.

Chaos has the realistic option for different Chapters/Legions to unite in a warband, which makes it pretty unique.They can set aside their hatred and stop killing each other in order to unite for short-term warfare. But naw, mostly, a warband is just a mono-Legion (or mono-God) deal.

only outside of BL it has never happened outside of company level [at leat not in the fluff prior to the happy family of gav thorpe] or one time joining [and even then it almost always ended with one side screwing the other side].

This is from the introduction of the 3.5 "It's all Legions, and they never cooperate" Codex Chaos Space Marines (page 2):

""Armies can be built to represent just one of these Legions or an alliance of members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord.

[Hiro_Protagonist]

There were 18 First Founding Chapters. Nine "good" and nine "bad" (by today's reckoning).

Of the nine Good Chapters, 4 have their own codex, plus one successor. Of the remaining 5 there are 4 special characters (plus one successor)which give army wide, chapter specific, special rules.

For the nine Bad Chapters, there is ONE codex, and NO special characters granting army wide, chapter specific rules. In the previous codex it took a half page to lay out chapter specific rules. Chaos just wants it's five pages back.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Sure, an army that is all berserkers in rhinos is world eaters. It is also excessively boring. As soon as I try to add any other unit, it isn't world eaters anymore. As a world eater fan, I'm also a bit offended that the berserker unit in the codex is supposed to be my full representation of the WE. Aren't WE supposed to be the supper effective close combat army from hell? Sorry, but in the current metagame that's the blood angels. And space wolves. And several Codex Marine builds. Sure, berserkers are a good unit. But the thing that makes them good is mainly their low point cost. When I think Chaos Marines, I don't think of a force that's good because it can field units with an efficient cost vs effectiveness ratio. That's all well in gamey terms, but it doesn't fit the fluff of ancient traitor marines, or even the fluff of proper Khorne marines. Why is the unit that, is by reputation, the most feared space marine CC unit short of various vet/honor guards so weak in comparison to other chapters? Why are the chosen of Khorne less effective than bog standards BA assault marines + priest (and less point efficient.) Making an army with all MoK or IoK does not a World Eaters force make. They do not hold their proper place in the tabletop power pecking order. They aren't the powerful but expensive unit they are supposed to be.

It's a simple matter of their tabletop rules not reflecting fluff. This is even more visible with Thousand Sons. What defines the 1ksons? Sorcery. But in the current codex, they are instead defined by their AP 3 bolters. Sure, their squad leaders are psykers. And what's the best/most competitive spell for them to use? Oh right, the one that gives more AP 3 bolter shots. The rest of the Chaos arsenal of powers is pretty crap. Warptime is great on princes, but still lackluster on everyone else. Sorcs are only good for lashing from Rhinos. Disregarding lash, all our psychic powers are crap compared to loyalists. The Thousand Sons, the masters of magic, are currently the weakest psykers in the game. Telling me I can make a thousand sons army with this codex is frankly insulting. I can make an army with a bunch of guys that can use a very few crappy psychic powers, most of which are counter intuitive to the role of their squad. Does that sound like a summary of the thousand sons? Doesn't to me either.

EDIT:

Another thing I'd like to point out is that this codex doesn't even represent Black Legion very well. Abbadon is generally considered to not be point efficient in standard size games (1000-2000) and is generally considered to still be inferior to Daemon Princes in larger games. Think about the main competitive chaos list. How many undivided units does it use? It has Slaanesh DPs, terminators, plague marines, berserkers, and oblits. That doesn't make me think Black Legion. When I think Black Legion, I think undivided with a spattering of cult units. Oblits are a mercenary unit more associated with Iron Warriors. Ah, but we have terminators, right? That's a very respectable undivided unit. Yes, but take a look at how the game rules actually have us using our elite chaos veterans — as one shot suicide troopers! Wait, what? I can think of little more Iconic of the Black Legion than it's elite terminators, especially Abbadon's personal bodyguard. But you aren't ever going to see those in a competitive list! No sir, our terminators are best used as sappers! That is counter intuitive to every piece of terminator fluff, loyalist or chaos. The game rules once again fail to represent the proper story and role of the unit.

Consider Abbadon and his terminator retinue again. You know, the one talked about in lots of stories and depicted in his artwork. But this isn't a unit you ever want to use, because our 10,000 year old undivided veterans aren't fearless. Putting Abbadon with terminators is an excellent way to have your expensive special character get run off the board by morale tests. Even if we house ruled in fearless, it's still not a good squad. Deepstriking a squad worth an average of a third of your army isn't a good idea. They need a landraider. Now it costs half of your army. But Chaos landraiders aren't very good. No machine spirit, etc. And on top of that, they just don't hold enough. 5 terminators just doesn't cut it as a CC unit when compared to the elite CC units of other races, or just to our own troops. Chaos terminators work out as a combi spam unit, but hey Wolves do that better too. Any attempt to make a fluffy force of any established warband or legion will leave you with a second rate army as compared to all other codexes currently in use.

Edited by Drudge Dreadnought, 21 September 2010 - 02:05 AM.

[Bloodmange]

You forgot dark angels maverike, but thats not a real codex anyway.

HA!!!! Thats getting Sigged!

[Drudge Dreadnought]

You forgot dark angels maverike, but thats not a real codex anyway.

HA!!!! Thats getting Sigged!

The true irony being that the DA and current CSM codex follow the same style/template...

[the jeske]

This is from the introduction of the 3.5 "It's all Legions, and they never cooperate" Codex Chaos Space Marines (page 2):

""Armies can be built to represent just one of these Legions or an alliance of members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord.

yes . but in the 3.5 we got 9+ lists[actualy more because most legions had more then one build] . also am not saying they never co operate , they do but not at a points lvl played in normal w40k games. + in the 3.5 games one could make the mix of legion with a BL list or a non legion list . all were viable . right now every warlord is special [actualy every one is a DP and has a indentical twin ,or lower ranking officers/leaders seem to have been shot] and every army is BL or it sucks.

On the table? No difference at all. Whether the Berserkers you field are permanently an asset of your own Legion because you play Black Legion, or whether they are a short term allied unit of World Eaters because you play Night Lords does not really make a difference. They are Berserkers, and they are fighting for you. In the background, there is a difference. The Black legion has their own Berserkers. The Night Lords do not.

and I will never agree with that. BAs or DA are suppose to be strickt codex following chapters yet they still are different from ultramarines [own dex] . even in the sm dex there are special characters that let WS or salamders playing something different then ultramarines. If a BA or SW is different from an ultramarine then an NL is different from a BL guy.
This just doesnt make sense. Go ask the SW/BA or any other sm player what do they think if GW droped all their codex and made them play a few build codex , because hey its not like you cant take venguard and assault marines to represent a BA army ?

Your warband might have fought with a squad of Berserkers for the past decade, but it doesn't really work out anymore, so now they have to part ways. I play an Ultramarines 2nd Company, but I do not really play them in a time span of 10.000 years.

then they either have cells for the zerkers , have a huge ship and keep a stady flow of offerings that the zerkers dont leave their quarters [which again means the warband is huge something like hurons. ] or they are in constant combat[and again if they dont have a huge fleet to resupply , the zerkers go mad and go after them]. Same with Plague marines , you cant tell them "hey guys no nurgle rot on the ship , because we dont want to get sick"[actualy the pms would probably see it as heresy against their god].

[Brother-Captain Alecto]

You forgot dark angels maverike, but thats not a real codex anyway.

My bad, But still, that helps make my point.

Like helll it isn't. The thing is the fluffiest way to represent Ultramarines.

[Legatus]

Yep. The last good loyalist Codex GW has released: Codex Dark Angels. Then things somehow got out of hand...

[Skirax]

Yep. The last good loyalist Codex GW has released: Codex Dark Angels. Then things somehow got out of hand...

*ahem* Space Wolves are very balanced.

[Legatus]

They now apparently also ride on wolves. Their Grey Hunters can carry three weapons, which previously only Chaos Marines were able to do to balance out their lack of 'ATSKNF' and to represent their aeon old veteran status in lieu of veteran skills, which now not only makes you wonder why not every loyalist is carrying three weapons, it also makes you wonder why the Wolf Guard apparently cannot do so either. Then there are the Space Wolves "Devastators" who get their heavy weapons cheaper than Codex Chapters. In fluff terms, Space Wolves are both very pack oriented and have a strong theme of the warrior brotherhood, but on the other hand the main goal of each individual is to build a saga for himself and the designers notes explain how the Codex promotes the idea of heroic individuals. They enjoy drinking, boasting and loud noises, with reckless youths with above average casualty rates, but on the other hand are super professional and cunning warriors. They are famed for sticking up for the little guys, and Grimnar is liked throughout the Imperium, but on the other hand he will just as happily attack imperial congregations as he will traitor or xeno forces, and one Wolf Lords is known to tear the throat out of anyone who dares disagreeing with him.
A Codex may be "balanced", but that doesn't mean it is fluffy or a good representation of the force.

[FenixAstartia]

Break enough bones and rip enough heads off and you can make any kind of rivals work together, for a while at least.

[Mortanix]

-Post deleted-

Edited by Mortanix, 20 December 2011 - 12:38 AM.

[Hellios]

but we really get the vanguard of it especially when it comes to troops for example, theres little incentive to take anything thats not a plague marine, I know the other troops theoretically have their uses but that doesn't make them anymore popular.

The old codex though was horribly confusing to anyone who didn't spend a good long time figuring it out and even then most people got their lists off of the net much like now.

I dunno Berzerkers are good depending on your game plan and basic CSMs are ok if generally not as cost effective (IMO troops is one of our strongest sections)... Noise Marines are pretty good as well but when kitted out with sonic weapons (Like you know you want to!) they cost a bit much points wise...

Thousand sons IMO are the biggest losers... they looked ok before the changes in editions but not with all that Mech and 4+ cover saves you have problems... I would trade my ap3 bolter back for 2 wounds, all is dust, feel no pain or some other rule... or allow as long as the sorcerer is alive to declare what ammo type is being used (if he dies it remains whatever was used last) and then allow my AP3 bolters, one that ignores cover maybe one to help with armour penetration? (I dunno I actually play a pure 1kson list might make them OTT in a normal list)... this way we would actually be able to deal with people in boxes... or loads of orks, but marines in bushes would still be hard to kill... fair enough I say... cover should have some point.

Oh and Rubric terminators please... and yer I want a 3++...

[Marshal2 Crusaders]

Want a good codex? Shouldn't have betrayed the Emperor.

[Hellios]

Want a good codex? Shouldn't have betrayed the Emperor.

Dude I want all codices to be good... that way I get a challenge rather than everyone rolling over when ever I play my Eldar... even BTs with their blessed hulls....

... + I have like 9 SM chapters... (not the whole chapters )

[Hiro_Protagonist]

Want a good codex? Shouldn't have betrayed the Emperor.

Dude I want all codices to be good... that way I get a challenge rather than everyone rolling over when ever I play my Eldar... even BTs with their blessed hulls....

... + I have like 9 SM chapters... (not the whole chapters )

Exactly, where's the fun in an easy win because of a garbage codex? It's like beating a 4 year old in an arm wrestling competition...sure you won, but don't go expecting any high fives afterward.

[Mortanix]

-Post deleted-

Edited by Mortanix, 20 December 2011 - 12:38 AM.

[Captain Idaho]

Want a good codex? Shouldn't have betrayed the Emperor.

Ha ha that made me chuckle!