27 replies to this topic

[angryswarmofbees]

Hey there

Seems to me the SM codex has several glaring omissions. First of all a mid-level commander. Less than a captain but not a librarian or a chaplain either. Do sergeants really go straight to captain, perhaps via command squad?

How about a Senior Veteran Sergeant? The captain's right hand man and obvious replacement for smaller battles?

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv 60 points
5 4 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+

Has access to all the wargear of the captain. Can take a command squad but not if there's a captain in the list.

Basically subtracted power weapon (15 points), liturgies of hate and 4++ save (25 points between them?) from 100 point cost of chaplain.

And how about apothecary ICs as Elites? Assuming a veteran in a command squad is basically the same as a vanguard vet (20 points) then an apothecary is worth about 35 points. Also compare that value to techmarine at 50 points. Minus what is effectively a powerfist and artificer armour? Seems fair to me. Needles to say keeps FNP for squad he joins.

I also think marines are missing decent air support though land speeders might just about fit the bill. Air superiority? Tempests? Hmmm...maybe. But what about medium lift/utility vehicles? In any war zone I'm sure thunderhawks have more pressing matters to attend to than ferrying ammo or water around, yet it must be done? Something like one of the vulture/sky talon things? And how about trojan support vehicles or similar?

What do you guys think?

Edited by angryswarmofbees, 27 October 2010 - 08:49 AM.

[Zeller]

All of the wargear minus TDA I would hope. I do wish there was a go-between guy for us. A strike force leader...a force commander if you will. Our captains have enough on their hands than to be in every battle. Inb4 our games of WH40k are those epic games where the captain would be present. There are other times!

Apothecary IC in elites is BA. Allowing a non-BA player to buy individual priests negates a unique purpose of the BA codex.

Tempests would be cool considering everyone else seems to be getting some kind of fighter or bomber.

[Erasmus of Baal]

Actually, a few months back, I designed a Tactical Squad variant to represent exactly this; I called it the "Tactical Command Squad." It never got past the draft stage, but I'll post what I put together.

Statline: as a standard Tactical Squad, save that the Sergeant has +1 WS, BS, W, and Ld.
Special rules: no other HQ may be taken, not even an Honor Guard (I was working with C:BA, so you get the point); The Sergeant counts as an IC with retinue; he has the Relentless special rule and grants in to whatever squad he is with; otherwise, as a Tactical Squad
Costs, wargear upgrades: mostly as a normal Tactical Squad; two special weapons and two heavy weapons may be taken (at 5 and 10 members, respectively); the Sergeant may take any wargear upgrades that a Captain may take except for Artificer Armor, Tactical Dreadnought Armor, or a Relic Blade; there is a points increase overall, but I did not work out what a good one would be.

I agree with Zeller about the Apothecaries.

For this last, didn't Forge World come up with something similar to what you're asking for? Their stuff is well-made and well-balanced, so far as I'm aware.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Wouldn't a Senior Veteran Sergeant be pretty much like a Lieutenant? Either way I'm not 100% sure SMs have lieutenants, but he could act like the captain's "right hand man". It'd be nice to not have, at a minimum, 10% of my points go to my HQ slots at 1000 points.

Maybe almost like a count-as company champion?

[Octavulg]

SM once did have Lieutenants. No longer. Equally, in 3e you could take a Space Marine Hero who was basically a slightly better Sergeant.

[Grey Mage]

Hey there

Seems to me the SM codex has several glaring omissions. First of all a mid-level commander. Less than a captain but not a librarian or a chaplain either. Do sergeants really go straight to captain, perhaps via command squad?

How about a Senior Veteran Sergeant? The captain's right hand man and obvious replacement for smaller battles?

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv 60 points
5 4 4 4 2 4 2 10 3+

Has access to all the wargear of the captain. Can take a command squad but not if there's a captain in the list.

Basically subtracted power weapon (15 points), liturgies of hate and 4++ save (25 points between them?) from 100 point cost of captain.

And how about apothecary ICs as Elites? Assuming a veteran in a command squad is basically the same as a vanguard vet (20 points) then an apothecary is worth about 35 points. Also compare that value to techmarine at 50 points. Minus what is effectively a powerfist and artificer armour? Seems fair to me. Needles to say keeps FNP for squad he joins.

I also think marines are missing decent air support though land speeders might just about fit the bill. Air superiority? Tempests? Hmmm...maybe. But what about medium lift/utility vehicles? In any war zone I'm sure thunderhawks have more pressing matters to attend to than ferrying ammo or water around, yet it must be done? Something like one of the vulture/sky talon things? And how about trojan support vehicles or similar?

What do you guys think?

Well I dunno about the commander, theres not really alot of place for them- Captains do in fact seem to get promoted out of command squads/veteran squads.

What I do know is that 35pts for an Apothecairy is to low. FNP for any squad you choose is worth more than 15pts. Yeah, I know- BA get 50pts for priests, its true, and its incredibly powerful for its points value. Perhaps an Apothecairy HQ though?

And no, Thunderhawks do not have more pressing duties than getting the marines to and from where theyre needed and bringing in supplies and equipment- this is expressly what theyre designed for.

Alot of infrastructure frankly isnt needed on-planet. A company is a mere 100 men and a little more than a dozen vehicles, not including thunderhawks. They dont need hundreds of gallons of water each day, or ten thousand kilos of food. Marines are deployed with enough equipment to be largely self sufficient- their most likely need being additional munitions as the fight drags on.

Still, alot of what you rasking for can be found in C:BA if your just looking for something to represent them on the tabletop.

[Hialmar]

I do not recall the marines ever having any rank between Sergeant and Captain and I am fairly certain all of the Sergeants are "Veteran" Sergeants by default as they do not have multiple ranks of Sergeants generally speaking.

The Specialist Marines, such as the Librarian, Chaplain and Techmarine seem to fill the role of the Lieutenant in most cases, as they will replace the Captain in the command structure if theCaptain is missing or absent for some reason. In the Rynn's World novel this is even demonstrated fairly clearly as when two Sergeants disagree over command assumption, the Senior Librarian present steps in and reminds them all that he is technically the ranking marine at that point.

I do not think that you need an additional command option as the ones they have seem to work pretty good. I would still like to be able to fully utilize and equip the Specialists, including the Apothecary, with a wider variety of weapons/equipmenty from the armory which would allow you a greater variation, sort of what they had back in 3rd Edition. If you could then take any of the Specialists as your commander that would probably give all the variety anyone could want. It would also let me field those Power Weapon wielding Apothecaries I have painted up from back then in my Ultramarine Successor army rahter than only being able to take them in my Black Templars.

[Octavulg]

I do not recall the marines ever having any rank between Sergeant and Captain

Rogue Trader, in addition to Sergeants and Captains, had Lieutenants and Lieutenant Commanders (Chapter Masters were Commanders at the time).

Edited by Octavulg, 27 October 2010 - 04:55 AM.

[Grey Mage]

And they used to have Seargents that upgraded to Vet Sergeants.

[Lucion]

I always wished there were more ranks.

There should be a second squad level rank that is similar to a Corporal, they lead one 5 man squad when its split into a combat squad, I also feel there should be some form of "First" or Senior Sergeant that commands the 1st squad of any Company and he is the voice between Sergeants and Captains. At a command level there could be a rank above Captain but below Chapter Master who's duty it is to command multiple companies, something akin to a Brigadier.

[Hellios]

I remember the Space Marine Hero he was much like a Wolf Guard battle leader from codex SW a Vet sarg who was leading a battle force... because the captain can't be everywhere you know...

[vonny]

There should be a second squad level rank that is similar to a Corporal, they lead one 5 man squad when its split into a combat squad

Hehe, I do this with painting, if not in rules. Makes for nice-looking combat squads that way.

Edited by bannus, 11 December 2010 - 06:27 PM.
Fixed quote tags.

[NightrawenII]

I also think marines are missing decent air support though land speeders might just about fit the bill. Air superiority? Tempests? Hmmm...maybe.

Tempest is useless, when it come to face a decent fighter. The LS's are similar modern day helicopters or A-10.

To achieve Air superioty you need a REAL fighter. The HH books mention DeathBird(IIRC) fighters and Apocalypse II Harpy as the dedicated interceptor/fighter for SM.

But in Nightrawenverse they just uses serf-piloted Thunderbolts/Lightnings.

But what about medium lift/utility vehicles? In any war zone I'm sure thunderhawks have more pressing matters to attend to than ferrying ammo or water around, yet it must be done? Something like one of the vulture/sky talon things? And how about trojan support vehicles or similar?

Well, the marine carry enough ammo for the mission at hand and PA is able to sustain him for several days if not weeks of fighting. If you are really in need of ammo, food or water it could be just drop-poded from orbit.

I do not recall the marines ever having any rank between Sergeant and Captain and I am fairly certain all of the Sergeants are "Veteran" Sergeants by default as they do not have multiple ranks of Sergeants generally speaking.

Nope.
There is sergeant, who is veteran marine and veteran sergeant, who is veteran sergeant. I hope you do understand. Oh, and there is corporal in charge of combat squad. Back in days he used to have a banner and iron halo painted on his shoulder pad. I'm not sure if he had access to armoury, but I doubt it.

I also feel there should be some form of "First" or Senior Sergeant that commands the 1st squad of any Company and he is the voice between Sergeants and Captains. At a command level there could be a rank above Captain but below Chapter Master who's duty it is to command multiple companies, something akin to a Brigadier.

Well, technically(=read the 4ed.) there is sergeant of command squad, the Primus Pilus.

Edit: *smack himself* 4ed.

Edited by NightrawenII, 27 October 2010 - 08:22 AM.

[Hemal]

Depending on edition it varied, there were once levels of Hero similar to Warhammer, champions heroes and mighty heroes as example (Champion, Hero, Lord) which progressed to equivalents in 2nd and 3rd edition as well. 3rd edition introduced the concept of an IC Vet Sarge and an upgrade to the standard sarge of squads by giving Termie honours.

A marine Minor Hero would be welcome - after all when you get promoted t CPatian do you automatically become better with a sword and bolter, and be more resilient to taking damage? In fact some chapter masters may not be as resilient as some of their charges - they might have been promoted through brilliance in theatre level warfare rather than individually killing a horde of enemies - which most Veteran sarges have done at any rate.

[angryswarmofbees]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Opinion seems mostly with me on the mid level commander. How about his stats and points cost? About right? I agree about him not having all wargear available to captain. So no relic blades, artificer armour or TDA. Also I don't think if he has a bike then bikers could be taken as troops.

As for the IC apothecary I think it would just fit the fluff nicely. According to FW there is an apothecarium (spelling?) with its own vehicles, which would make for a nice project. Plus it just makes sense that they're free to wander the battlefield harvesting geneseed. If they're attached to a command squad there's gonna be less opportunity for them to perform their primary role. Unless that is, the command squad is held back from being a bunch of front line bad asses. I wouldn't change the stat line or give him access to much wargear other than a tactical sergeant perhaps? But how about points?

The 35 points I arrived at seemed logical. Are people thinking more like 50?

[the jeske]

ammo, food or water it could be just drop-poded from orbit.

actualy all they need is ammo , food and water can be easily fixed by eating any biomass they find or the corpses of dead enemies.

[Hellios]

ammo, food or water it could be just drop-poded from orbit.

actualy all they need is ammo , food and water can be easily fixed by eating any biomass they find or the corpses of dead enemies.

Not if they are fighting Daemons! Muhahahahaha Evil Chaos... and would you really want to eat a Plague marine? Anyway can't space marines eat rocks?

[Techmarine Data007]

It's said that in lieu of the Captain being in charge, the most senior Sergeant handles the company. Occasionally the Captain even passes on leadership of parts of the company to the Sergeant, despite still being on the battlefield. That said, it's not always the '1st' squad, as squads seem to be formed and named around their sergeants. But I trust the Marines to remember which Sergeant's been serving longest.

[bannus]

Remember that a Company has a Captain and a Chaplain - so the Chaplain actually serves as both spiritual leader and second-in-command.

We are talking about 100 Marines (107 at full strength). You divide that force in half and you have roughly 50 Marines in each detachment. One can be commanded by the Captain, the other by the Chaplain.

If smaller detachments were required, any one of the Veteran Sergeants would be more than capable of leading one of the smaller units.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I do not recall the marines ever having any rank between Sergeant and Captain and I am fairly certain all of the Sergeants are "Veteran" Sergeants by default as they do not have multiple ranks of Sergeants generally speaking.

Rogue trader had lieutanants with the same stat options as captians (3 different levels of hero), 2nd edition had something similar, and 3rd edition had a generic 'commander' that had multiple stat options. Prior to 5th edition 'veteran sergeant' was a specific upgrade to a sergeant, and the fluff listing of marines in the Ultramarines had veterans called out specifically.

I just use the captain's stats for lieutenants.

[Vulkan 94]

I seem to recall that there was a rank of First Sergeant in the first HH book led by Jubal. Also upon his elevation to the Mournival, Loken selects Vipus as a rank similar to acting commander of his company while he was away.

[Hedgehobbit]

There was a Lieutenant in the 4th Edition boxed set, Battle for Magragge (or somesuch). I think his name was Lt. Varras. In the old rules, each company had a Lt. who was 2nd in command. Just one though (which I believe is more a British thing than an American one). Actually, I was surpised to find out recently that there wasn't a Lieutenant in the 2e Codex (at least the Ultramarine one). They were kinda brought back in 3ed with their Team Leader/Commander/Force Commander split. It is kinda silly not to have some sort of 2nd in command when they make a bid deal how SM chapters and companies don't get fielded all at once very often.

Your points seem about right. I was thinking same sort of thing and wanted to add a Team Leader which was basically a Vet Sergeant IC for 35 pts. (with the option of adding Termi armor for +15 pts). and a Lexicanium which was the old level 1 psyker (Vet Sergeant stats, knows one spell, has equipment of Librarian 'cept no hood). This is mainly because I tend to play smaller games so cheaper HQ options are nice.

Also, a "Platoon Command Squad" which is the same as a Company Command Squad except no Champion or Banner.

Edited by Hedgehobbit, 02 December 2010 - 06:13 PM.

[angryswarmofbees]

Hey thanks for the replies. Could you check my codex: knights aquila? I've put my ideas in a more formal manner and would appreciate the input.

Cheers

[Techmarine Data007]

There was a Lieutenant in the 4th Edition boxed set, Battle for Magragge (or somesuch). I think his name was Lt. Varras.

Lt. Varras is an Imperial Navy officer, charged with the sacred duty of carrying Space Marine geneseed. It's not entirely clear from where to where, but that was his duty.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

there used to be a "force commander" representing a vet sarge who takes command of small detachments.
Maybe u could represent him with the vet sarge in the command squad?
just do some fluff and a unique paint job?

ah just realised this is for homegrown rules, my mistake - nice idea tho