Astalon Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Just re-read the information of Dorn's demise and it sounds odd to say the least! The Primarch continued for hundreds of years after the heresy, with no dominuation of his powers (the fluff given seems to strongly imply Primarchs are genuine immortals) and then he dies on the bridge of a ship? I don't care how strong the resistance was, a Primarch along with what was presumably some of the best warriors of the chapter should have prevailed, this really needs some explaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The chances of dying in a plane crash are millions to one, but if you take millions of plane rides then fate might catch up with you. Similar thing - you fight constantly for 500 years and everything goes well for you, but one day your luck will run out. An Ork nearly killed the Emperor, a Bloodthirster nearly killed Sanguinius, Johnson was nearly killed by a human, a daemon weapon nearly killed Horus, Guilliman struggled to kill someone pretending to be Alpharius (speculation on my part...Alpharius lives!), etc etc so it is possible for a Primarch to die via fairly 'mundane' means. The only concrete primarch deaths are Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius, who both died at the hands of primarchs, and Curze who let himself be assassinated. All the other 'deaths' - Guilliman, Alpharius, Dorn, and disappearances - Russ, Khan, Corax and Vulkan are all up for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmo438 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Dorn is supposed to have died on board the Chaos Despoiler-class battleship 'Sword of Sacrilege'. They attacked during the 1st Black Crusade, having fought many battles. Sources claim that the Imperial Fists who attacked were cut down to a man on the ship. Older cannon (from the BL book 'Space Marine') says he was recovered and his body lies incased in amber, and his hands are relics of the chapter. However, newer material says only one hand was recovered, from an escape pod, alone with some of his personal affects. What really happened is un-known at this point, but I wouldn't say getting butchered by 500+ chaos marines was a boring death. I mean, those ships are massive, the fight would have gone on for days. :tu: An old bit of cannon I read ages ago also said that the Black Templars came across the ruins of a ship, identified as the 'Sword of Sacrilege'. The Templars moved to investigate but since then all comunication has been lost. No futher info on this incident is available. One can only assume that the BL is working on something that will shed more light on this elusive subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted November 2, 2010 Author Share Posted November 2, 2010 True, maybe i downplayed the conditions of his death! It just struck me as remarkably un-fleshed out, but i've been put to rights by cosmo's informative post. Just struck me as odd since reading how Lorgar had Corax's lightnight claws right through his stomach and then healed up fine in a few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmo438 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 True, maybe i downplayed the conditions of his death! It just struck me as remarkably un-fleshed out, but i've been put to rights by cosmo's informative post. Just struck me as odd since reading how Lorgar had Corax's lightnight claws right through his stomach and then healed up fine in a few minutes. Yup, always found it odd that all the Primarchs were killed or disapeared but were explained, while Dorn was left in darkness. Being a Black Templar player, I always wanted to know what happened to Dorn Guess we just gonna have to wait and see what the Black Library do with the story. I read way too much background stuff/BL books/codexs etc, so if I find any new info on Dorn in the new books that are out this month, I'll message you and satisfy your curiosity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astalon Posted November 2, 2010 Author Share Posted November 2, 2010 True, maybe i downplayed the conditions of his death! It just struck me as remarkably un-fleshed out, but i've been put to rights by cosmo's informative post. Just struck me as odd since reading how Lorgar had Corax's lightnight claws right through his stomach and then healed up fine in a few minutes. Yup, always found it odd that all the Primarchs were killed or disapeared but were explained, while Dorn was left in darkness. Being a Black Templar player, I always wanted to know what happened to Dorn Guess we just gonna have to wait and see what the Black Library do with the story. I read way too much background stuff/BL books/codexs etc, so if I find any new info on Dorn in the new books that are out this month, I'll message you and satisfy your curiosity haha much obliged, Dorn is certainly growing on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alvarius Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Who knows. It might be, that Dorn, crippled/dying after that fight on the bridge let himself fall to the lure of chaos. That would explain why all contact was lost with the Templar expedition. they found something they never expected... Death by their own fathers hand :] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Normish Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Who knows. It might be, that Dorn, crippled/dying after that fight on the bridge let himself fall to the lure of chaos. That would explain why all contact was lost with the Templar expedition. they found something they never expected... Death by their own fathers hand :] HERESY! Dorn, as I like to think, is dead. We only have his hand, just like the Official fluff says. There's no need to introduce random mystical ideas about some sort of reincarnation or anything. He's dead, like everyone else (who is dead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Dorn is definitely dead, it is stated so in the Space Marine codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I hate to thread-jack, but... The chances of dying in a plane crash are millions to one, but if you take millions of plane rides then fate might catch up with you. Similar thing - you fight constantly for 500 years and everything goes well for you, but one day your luck will run out. An Ork nearly killed the Emperor, a Bloodthirster nearly killed Sanguinius, Johnson was nearly killed by a human, a daemon weapon nearly killed Horus, Guilliman struggled to kill someone pretending to be Alpharius (speculation on my part...Alpharius lives!), etc etc so it is possible for a Primarch to die via fairly 'mundane' means. The only concrete primarch deaths are Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius, who both died at the hands of primarchs, and Curze who let himself be assassinated. All the other 'deaths' - Guilliman, Alpharius, Dorn, and disappearances - Russ, Khan, Corax and Vulkan are all up for debate. The last sources I read up on said that Curze and M'Shen lunged at each other, then the feed went fuzzy and was lost, then it came back and both were gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonny Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 read 'Soul Hunter' then ;) Awesome book in my oppinion, and states pretty planely what happened to Curze and how it managed to get that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICHD? Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The last sources I read up on said that Curze and M'Shen lunged at each other, then the feed went fuzzy and was lost, then it came back and both were gone. Incorrect. The Assassin threw herself at Curze, and the last image from the feed is Curze smiling his "mirthless smile". Although the feed cuts out at that point, and none of the old First Company have ever said for certain that Curze is dead. Maybe that's what he WANTS us to think......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Hadafix Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 BoLS did a thing on this a while back, and while some things point to Dorns demise, others point to him still living, but not wanting to be found, in the throne room waiting for the Emperor to rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandOfDorn Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Finally a thread which delves into the subject that plagues every Templar/Fists player! I would say that Dorn's 'death' was certainly underplayed, with no real evidence either way, it is completely open to speculation, something devised by GW, much like the missing legions, to add interest and theories to the game.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 His death may have been underplayed but he is dead none the less. This is take straight from the current Space Marine codex, page 27 in the blurb about the Imperial Fists; "Rogal Dorn, the Imperial Fists' Primarch, was a tenacious and steadfast warrior whose final moments were of courage and supreme sacrifice. Though many millennia have passed since Dorn's death, his example still drives the Imperial Fists onwards to fresh victories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The last sources I read up on said that Curze and M'Shen lunged at each other, then the feed went fuzzy and was lost, then it came back and both were gone. Incorrect. The Assassin threw herself at Curze, and the last image from the feed is Curze smiling his "mirthless smile". Although the feed cuts out at that point, and none of the old First Company have ever said for certain that Curze is dead. Maybe that's what he WANTS us to think......? Soul Hunter confirms that Curze is dead, Talos himself witnesses him being beheaded and he hunts down M'Shen himself. Guilliman struggled to kill someone pretending to be Alpharius (speculation on my part...Alpharius lives!), etc etc so it is possible for a Primarch to die via fairly 'mundane' means. Guilliman strugggled? He killed Alpharius, or whoever was pretending to be Alpharius, in a single blow. There was a long pause, neither Primarch moving an inch, then both struck in an instant. Each sword made a single stroke and then both were till again. For a second, the two great men stood facing, before Alpharius slumped to the ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICHD? Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The last sources I read up on said that Curze and M'Shen lunged at each other, then the feed went fuzzy and was lost, then it came back and both were gone. Incorrect. The Assassin threw herself at Curze, and the last image from the feed is Curze smiling his "mirthless smile". Although the feed cuts out at that point, and none of the old First Company have ever said for certain that Curze is dead. Maybe that's what he WANTS us to think......? Soul Hunter confirms that Curze is dead, Talos himself witnesses him being beheaded and he hunts down M'Shen himself. Thanks everso for the spoiler! :pirate: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmo438 Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 Guilliman strugggled? He killed Alpharius, or whoever was pretending to be Alpharius, in a single blow. Alpharius had a twin didn't he? It was probably the twin who was killed. One thing is for certain though, one of them must still live right? Gulliman killed one, so where's the other? I've got to say that I find Alpha Legion to be the most blasphemous of all the traitor legions. Horus and the others were slowly tainted, most were possessed and didn't know what they were doing. But Alpharius turned against the Emperor and his brothers on the word of xeno filth! He didn't even question them. they used sorcery to show him (possibly fake) visions, and he just accepted it and turned against the Imperium. He thinks himself a hero for 'taking it upon himself' to see to it that Horus wins and that the race of man is destroyed (robbing the Chaos gods of any chance of ruling the galaxy) But who is he trying to sav the galaxy for? aliens! vile blasphemous aliens! If he were a true child of the Imperium, he would have butchered the aliens who tried to turn him, then put the full might of his legion to work stopping horus. Then the battle for Terra might not have lasted so long, or even happened at all! The Emperor would still live and the Imperium would know a golden age of peace. No cruel inquisition, no enforced imperial faith/creed. Only freedom... That was the Emperor's dream... Alpha Legion has no place in the ranks of Chaos Marines, nor with the Loyalists. They are arrogant fools... (If you're confused about the 'race of men is destroyed' bit, the aliens told Alpharius that if Horus won, he would eventually become overwhelmed with guilt and destroy the traitor legions, his own legion, and every human left in the galaxy before killing himself...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 @cosmo438 They are loyal to themselves and eternal war for mankind, the latter needs both chaos and loyalists to continue. He also knew the Golden Age of Peace was a dream that would never be reached, an opinion shared by loyalists as well, including Dorn's own first captain and that belief is not arrogance, it was wise. In Horus Rising, Sigismund made Loken look like an ignorant fool when he found out what "reality" the Luna Wolf saw for the future. If anything, the race of mankind becoming that which The Emperor and his Primarchs set out to destroy on the Great Crusade is foolish. Religon, faith in False Gods, unfounded fear and awe, empty prayers, idolatry, these are all things to a being who spent his whole life fighting against it, simply anathema. Had the Loyal Primarchs knew the future, I often wonder if they would have willingly chosen the course that they did, for in reality, it was just as damning as taking up arms against a brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 The last sources I read up on said that Curze and M'Shen lunged at each other, then the feed went fuzzy and was lost, then it came back and both were gone. Incorrect. The Assassin threw herself at Curze, and the last image from the feed is Curze smiling his "mirthless smile". Although the feed cuts out at that point, and none of the old First Company have ever said for certain that Curze is dead. Maybe that's what he WANTS us to think......? Soul Hunter confirms that Curze is dead, Talos himself witnesses him being beheaded and he hunts down M'Shen himself. Thanks everso for the spoiler! :rolleyes: I was not aware that such a well known fact was considered a spoiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 I hope Fabius Bile didn't find his body. Also he could be ascended by the Emperor just like the Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badaboom Posted November 4, 2010 Share Posted November 4, 2010 Maybe he just got really pissed off and tired of all that responsabilities, being the last surviving Primarch, and wanted to disappear; imagine he´s now inside the Eye of Terror, looking for his lost brother Perturabo, just to have some words with him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Pentacost Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 His death may have been underplayed but he is dead none the less. This is take straight from the current Space Marine codex, page 27 in the blurb about the Imperial Fists; "Rogal Dorn, the Imperial Fists' Primarch, was a tenacious and steadfast warrior whose final moments were of courage and supreme sacrifice. Though many millennia have passed since Dorn's death, his example still drives the Imperial Fists onwards to fresh victories. That doesen't mean he's dead, only that it is beleved he died. I like the thery that he facked his death and stands to this day at the Emperors side, commanding the Custos in secret, awaiting the Emperors rebirth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted November 5, 2010 Share Posted November 5, 2010 Oh I was unaware that phrases such as "Though many millennia have passed since Dorn's death..." "final moments" "supreme sacrifice" just meant it is believed he is dead... I like the thery that he facked his death and stands to this day at the Emperors side, commanding the Custos in secret, awaiting the Emperors rebirth. Isn't that the idea used in the Rise of the Tau fan fiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servus Christi Posted November 6, 2010 Share Posted November 6, 2010 Maybe he just got really pissed off and tired of all that responsabilities, being the last surviving Primarch, and wanted to disappear; imagine he´s now inside the Eye of Terror, looking for his lost brother Perturabo, just to have some words with him... Dorn wouldn't have left the Imperium for anything. His thought process was simple: "I have a duty" and he carried that duty out until his final moments, crippling the First Black Crusade. We know he made his last stand on the bridge, but he probably done something like stick his arm through the warp drives and screwed him self up royally before that last stand. Dorn's dead and he's a better character for it. Anything else would detract from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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