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Dorn's death


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#51
Servus Christi

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[. . .]


You're going by Abaddon's Black Crusades. Don't forget there were others, and his were in all likelihood not the first.

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"Do not ask me to approach the battle meekly, to creep through the shadows, or to quietly slip on my foes in the dark. I am Rogal Dorn, Imperial Fist, Space Marine, Emperor's Champion. Let my enemies cower at my advance and tremble at the sight of me."

-Rogal Dorn

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#52
Focke

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Which ever Black Crusade it was, it never even reached Cadia according to the Index Astartes article.

Also I have never heard of any Black Crusades that were not lead by Abaddon. What other ones were there?

#53
Inquisitor Engel

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Also I have never heard of any Black Crusades that were not lead by Abaddon. What other ones were there?


Angron and Doombreed led one each IIRC. The 6th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th Black Crusades are things we have literally NO detail on - While all the others are explicitly stated as being led by Abaddon, these are open to interpretation since there's a couple of other Black Crusades that are named and not numbered such as The Black Crusade of Tallomin, Doombreed and Jihar.
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"Do not ask me to approach the battle meekly, to creep through the shadows, or to approach my foes quietly in the dark. I am Rogal Dorn. Imperial Fist. Space Marine. Emperor's Champion. Let my enemies cower at the thunder of my advance and tremble at the sight of me." - Rogal Dorn

#54
Brother Sutek

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Guilliman strugggled? He killed Alpharius, or whoever was pretending to be Alpharius, in a single blow.




+++ Struggled as in the combat as a whole, the personal combat was "easily" won as it was unlikely to have be Apharius or Omegon. Most likely it was a Captain or other high ranking member. That being said as much as the Alpha Legion is my favorite chapter Guilliman could probably take one of them down by himself, not with one stroke but he is more of a hard charger and the Alphas are more victory through tactics. Either way at least one of the Primarchs of the Alphas is alive :wallbash:

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#55
Legatus

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Struggled as in the combat as a whole, the personal combat was "easily" won as it was unlikely to have be Apharius or Omegon. Most likely it was a Captain or other high ranking member.

Considering the way it is written (plainly described as being Alpharius), the context of the encounter (the Ultramarines claim the body and take the time to burn it, and Guilliman had met Alpharius before), and the state of the fluff at that time (there was no Omegon, and Alpharius was not said to have others impersonate him) it is actually hard to argue that this was not Alpharius. What can be argued about is whether the entire account of that battle is accurate or not, but if you take it as accurate, then Alpharius has been killed that day.

#56
Pulse

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You fail to remember that no one other than the Emperor knew Alpharius had a twin an identical twin - making the other primarchs unaware as well. So because Guilliman had seen Alpharius means nothing.

Edited by Pulse, 06 January 2011 - 08:13 PM.


#57
Legatus

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Only that the entire concept of a twin Primarch brother and all Alpha Legionnaires looking like a Primarch did not exict in the fluff when the Index Astartes article had been written. So when the author wrote "Alpharius", he meant it.

#58
Pulse

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Apprantly ment it yes, but again that means nothing from a legion that is very secretive.

Edited by Pulse, 06 January 2011 - 10:15 PM.


#59
Brother Rathul

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I believe Dorn is alive and well, he lost his fist and he will fight till he gets it back!!!!!

Also, lets not foget that MATT WARD wrote 5th edition Space Marines. The ULTRASMURF himself (nothing against Ultamarines, I love them). So, Matt Ward probaly hates the Imperial Fists. He even said quote "second to that of the Ultramarines." Henceforth, what fluff are we going to use really about Dorn's death????
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#60
Cyrox

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Only that the entire concept of a twin Primarch brother and all Alpha Legionnaires looking like a Primarch did not exict in the fluff when the Index Astartes article had been written. So when the author wrote "Alpharius", he meant it.



Agreed. The book 'Legion' did not exist at the time, so the genuine intent of that IA article is that Alpharius is dead

Since Legion, there is nothing to stop people surmising that Omegon is alive and well, but personally, i think Alpharius is brown bread.

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#61
Khestra the Unbeheld

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Only that the entire concept of a twin Primarch brother and all Alpha Legionnaires looking like a Primarch did not exict in the fluff when the Index Astartes article had been written. So when the author wrote "Alpharius", he meant it.



Agreed. The book 'Legion' did not exist at the time, so the genuine intent of that IA article is that Alpharius is dead

Since Legion, there is nothing to stop people surmising that Omegon is alive and well, but personally, i think Alpharius is brown bread.


According to Abnett, Alan Merrett had the twins idea long before Legion was published. It doesn't actually matter which one Guilliman may have killed.
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#62
Pulse

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Thats the one, i just couldn't remember who had the idea. ;)

#63
Legatus

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According to every Chaos Codex ever written, that early idea had never made it into the fluff.

#64
Pulse

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No one cares. Pretty common now that they are twins.

#65
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In the Abnett interview, he states that Merrett assumed people would pick up on it. Also, that AL/UM encounter was written and stated as conjecture to prove the whole point of the article, and the driving point of Merrett's idea behind Alpharius Omegon.

#66
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Abnett does not say anything of that sort in the BLTV interview. Did he adress that issue in a different interview later?

Edit: Since Dan Abnedd was writing for the Alpha Legion and was brainstorming about ideas he presneted lan Merrett with, he had obviously researched their previous fluff for that. Had there been any "intention" to be two Primarchs in teh fluff so far, he would likely have picked something up. Obviously he didn't. Neitehr did anyone else.

Edited by Legatus, 08 January 2011 - 11:57 AM.


#67
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3:06 "He (Alan Merrett) said, by the way, we've always assumed that Alpharius is a twin and that there are two of them. You could put that in the book if you like. And that had been around since 1989 when they first talked about this sort of stuff ... lovely to bring that to the light of day for the first time."

That really seems to me that the people responsible for creating the story we know and love knew the "secret" originally, and the fact that they didn't share it with the gaming community until now doesn't diminish it, it was just the right time to shed light on it. It's their IP, and can slowly present it how they want.

#68
Legatus

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To me that spells someone had a freakish idea in 1989 that never made it into the fluff and he thought that maybe now with a retcon of the majority of the Horus Heresy background would be the time to get it in.

"Legion" was written in 2008 by Dan Abnett. He heard about the second twin idea for teh first time when discussing his own ideas for teh upcoming novel. Since researching the Alpha Legion backgrond would have been an integral part of his preparations (you'd hope), it appears he was not aware about htat odea from any previous source.

"Index Astartes Alpha Legion" was written in 2002 by Graham Davey. Back then the Alpha Legion was still supposed to have truned against the Imperium out of pride and for the prospect of being able to fight openly against other loyal Space Marine Legions. The concepts of Alpharius having a twin brother or about him being indistinguishable from an Alpha Legion Marine in stature and apearance did not officially exist at that time. When Graham Davey wrote "Alpharius gets killed in a duel with Guilliman", then that was indeed Alpharius getting killed in a duel with Guilliman.

#69
DaemonPrinceDargor

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Also,dont forget that the whole "Ultramarine battle log" that supported the theory of Alpharius death was presented by an Inquisitor that was later declaired a traitor and an AL operative...

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#70
Legatus

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I am not forgetting that. I pointed that out in my initial post on this issue. The battle account is questioned by a few sources. The specific detail about Alpharius being killed in a duel is not. You can argue that the entire battle account may not actually be accurate. But if you take it as accurate (which most people seem to do) then that means Alpharius is dead.

#71
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To me that spells someone had a freakish idea in 1989 that never made it into the fluff and he thought that maybe now with a retcon of the majority of the Horus Heresy background would be the time to get it in.


I'm not sure which part of that sentence is more ignorant.

#72
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart

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I am not forgetting that. I pointed that out in my initial post on this issue. The battle account is questioned by a few sources. The specific detail about Alpharius being killed in a duel is not. You can argue that the entire battle account may not actually be accurate. But if you take it as accurate (which most people seem to do) then that means Alpharius is dead.


Other than some die-hard Ultramarine fans, i have not met anybody who assumed the account is accurate.

in fact, before this discussion, i didnt know of anybody that did.

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#73
Legatus

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I'm not sure which part of that sentence is more ignorant.

I can tell you that taking a massive retcon from a Black Library novel and then pretending that all prior GW background had been written with that new twist in mind is not a very reasonable position. GW has not written all the Chaos Codex background of the past decade to have this twist at one day be finally revealed to the players by a Black Library novel. When Dan Abnett was in the process of writing for the Alpha Legion, that was simply an opportunity to retcon new plot twists into their background. Or do you honestly think that they intentionally left that out of the Alpha Legion Index Astartes just to allow Black Library to reveal it at a later point?


Edit:

Other than some die-hard Ultramarine fans, i have not met anybody who assumed the account is accurate.

Funny, I can think of dozens upon dozens of instances where the duel between Guilliman and Alpharius has been brought up and someone immediately claims that it was probably not really Alpharius that had been killed in that duel (in other words taking it for granted that the duel did happen). Try it, bring up the point that Alpharius has been killed by Guilliman in any thread where Chaos players post, and you will likely get a comment saying that it was probably not really Alpharius Guilliman had fought against. I doubt you will get any comment saying that the account of the Ultramarines fighting the Alpha Legion on Eskrador was probably not true.

Edited by Legatus, 09 January 2011 - 01:29 AM.


#74
Ioldanach

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It is what it is - Alpharius and Omegon are twins. One of them was killed by Roboute Guilliman. Unless the Ultramarines (and their Primogenitors) deny the account about Guilliman killing "Alpharius", then we have to assume that the account is at least somewhat accurate. It is highly unlikely that Guilliman could have been fooled into fighting a fake (i.e., not a Primarch). Had an impostor posed as the (a) Primarch of the Alpha Legion, the Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion would have seen through that subterfuge immediately. So one of the twins is dead (we don't know which one).

I just don't see why there is even a "debate" about this. The game universe isn't what we (the players) want it to be. It's what GW says it is. GW says that the Alpha Legion has twin Primarchs and that the existence of the twins was a closely guarded secret. It's likely that few outside of the Alpha Legion knew this secret. Certainly the Emperor knew, and possibly Malcador and a few others. One would think that the Emperor would have revealed the existence of the twin Primarchs of the Alpha Legion to those that stood by his side when the Alpha Legion "turned" to Chaos - so we might speculate that the Primarchs that were with him at the Siege of Terra, perhaps the leaders of the Adeptus Custodes, and perhaps a few other key leaders knew (but that would just be speculation). Since Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines weren't at the siege, though, one might argue that they didn't know (of course, if Rogal Dorn knew, one would think that he would have revealed the secret to the other Primarchs that survived - so I guess it's possible the other Primarchs may not have known).

And it's odd ... I opened this discussion expecting to see something about Rogal Dorn's death, but instead I find a debate about Roboute Guilliman and Alpharius/Omegon. It looks like we've gotten off topic. So I'll throw my two cents in on the Dorn question in an effort to get us back on topic.

I haven't seen the Crimson Fists program that people speak of, but I've seen everything else. It's pretty clear to me that Rogal Dorn is dead. I'm with those that call assertions to the contrary as wishful thinking.

Edited by Brule the Spear-Slayer, 09 January 2011 - 01:42 AM.

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#75
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Unless the Ultramarines (and their Primogenitors) deny the account about Guilliman killing "Alpharius", then we have to assume that the account is at least somewhat accurate.


Actually the Ultramarines do deny it.

IA Alpha Legion

The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe 'Lessons of Strife', though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity. The original document was purportedly discovered in a system earth-ward of Eskrador.


It then describes the battle and the fight.

Index Astartes: Argent Fists.

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