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[DH] Dornian Heresy - Iron Hands Codex - Variant H


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#1
Honda

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Have you read the Dornian Heresy Index Astartes article on the Iron Hands?

No: Go here, otherwise you'll think I'm insane: http://www.bolterand...p...t&p=2550372

Yes: Please proceed

Purpose: To produce a document that will allow players to model and game with the Iron Hands chapter, set within the Dornian Heresy universe.

After having received Aurelius Rex's approval to go forward I have sketched out a loose framework that will guide the development of the list. It is my intention to produce something that is at least reasonably balanced in that, opponents would not feel abused considering that they may not have any idea what the Dornian Heresy is. I should say upfront that I would not expect to see this list anywhere near a tournament unless it is theme oriented and the organizers are pretty flexible.

More importantly to me though, is that it provide an opportunity to have some fun, both playing and modeling this army.

So be aware, this isn't going to be just another standard variation of the Space Marine Codex. -_-

I. Framework

This is the brain dump that I got from reading the article:


Dornian Heresy IA Army List thoughts

1. I see a blend of Codex SM (Iron Hands meet Relictors), Necrons, and maybe a little Grey Knights.

2. I see a focus on terminators, tacticals, and devastators for foot. Maybe an elite choice with “Pariah” characteristics. No fast attack. Heavy choices might be limited to Landraiders, maybe some sort of Thunderfire equivalent. So ponderous, but brutal.

3. All units in the army may Deep Strike. I would include a phase out rule to represent the Legion in its rebuilding phase and needing to preserve existing forces.

4. Characters in the form of Iron Fathers would play a significant role. As Manus is still alive, he'll probably have C'tan-ish stats.

5. Ideally, rather than try to make the list look like Space Marines with an “N” on their foreheads, I’d like to see an equal blend between SM and Necron abilities. So SM will give up a fair bit to gain what the Necrons would give them.

6. Landraiders have the Living Metal rule.

7. No transportation as teleportation will be the main form of moving things around when not walking.

8. Thinking that Landraiders would act like Monoliths, i.e. provide portals for moving units around. More landraiders, more units can teleport around. Landraiders would still move on the ground, as they are improvements on existing technology, not completely different vehicles. There would need to be a cost balancing act going on, obviously.

9. All troops and vehicles will be armed with gauss weaponry.

10. If I could find a way to work in the new FW Tomb Stalker, I would. :)



My first cut at a FOC, looks something like this:

HQ

Ferrus Manus
Gabriel Santar
Iron Father character

Ideally, some sort of chapter characteristics would apply to units as some of the newer codeci feature.

Elites

Pariah Equivalents
Tomb Constructs
Dreadnoughts

Troops

Terminators
Tactical squads

Support

Landraiders
Thunderfire cannon

I think that's it for now. I'm in the process of getting my hands on a Necron codex so that I can leverage that information.

Until next time...

Please feel free to comment as I think that the more eyes on a project, the more likely we'll catch bugs, especially when we get to the hard task of deciding the overall values for the units etc.

Cheers

Edited by Honda, 20 December 2010 - 01:55 PM.

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#2
Chapter Master Ignis Domus

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Sounds like an excellent idea. For the Elites, do you include all dread types? I might use Sternguard who are suitably necronised, possibly with special ammunition more fitting with their discoveries on those ancient worlds. Troops looks fine. I might be tempted to include the Vindicator. I assume you aren't going to use the other Land Raider variants. The idea of a devastator squad somewhat based on the Heavy Destroyers sounds cool to me. Sort of a squad with heavy gauss weaponry. I would keep the assault squads, just not give them jump packs and have a sort of gauss pistol and sword thing. Maybe have a unit of psychic nulls who have anti-psyker rules such as the older psychic hood.

Edited by Chapter Master Ignis Domus, 30 November 2010 - 02:25 AM.

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#3
Honda

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For the Elites, do you include all dread types?


Frankly, I had not gotten that far. I am inclined to go with Venerables and Ironclads, equipped with Gauss weaponry and something like the Necron living metal scythes, if I am remembering that correctly.

I might use Sternguard who are suitably necronised, possibly with special ammunition more fitting with their discoveries on those ancient worlds.


I did think about them, but one of the things I want to steer away from is a straight one-to-one conversion of the codex. I want to push the envelope a bit and not end up with PA guys with green things on the end of their bolters.

Troops looks fine.


Ok

I might be tempted to include the Vindicator. I assume you aren't going to use the other Land Raider variants.


Correct on the second, no LR variants. Much like the Monolith, there will be one flavor, with gauss weaponry in the sponsons, and something to represent the jewel or whatever to get that arc thingie that's such a pain in the neck.

I'll have to think about the Vindi. I really do intend to "trim the tree" in order to get the other things I think are important for defining the blend of technologies.

The idea of a devastator squad somewhat based on the Heavy Destroyers sounds cool to me. Sort of a squad with heavy gauss weaponry.


I left those out didn't I? Ok, I would expect to see some sort of representation in the Heavy slot for them.

I would keep the assault squads, just not give them jump packs and have a sort of gauss pistol and sword thing.


See how easy it is to fall back on old habits? :)

The way I am trying to approach this design is from a perspective that Ferrus has seen and understood all this new technology. Necrons are primarily a "shooting" army vs. close combat, so I am going to try and steer away from that fighting style or at least minimize it to an extent. That's my fault for not elaborating on that design feature earlier.

Obviously a problem with meat. It's secrets aren't easily accessible.

Maybe have a unit of psychic nulls who have anti-psyker rules such as the older psychic hood.


I intend to put in a psychic null unit, but I would expect them to work more like Pariahs vs. a squad of Librarians.

Thanx for the feedback!

Cheers,
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#4
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

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I'm glad that the DH Iron Hands are getting a fandex, but warning, I've had plenty of thoughts/conceptions about them, sooooo get ready for a long review. I've tried to keep most of my random, off-the-wall ideas out for now, and am focusing mainly on the currently-stated rules ideas (that's more than enough text :P ).

While it is important to stay away from feeling like "Space Marines w/ Gauss", I feel the current approach is a bit too close to being "Necrons w/ I4". While Ferrus would understand Necron-tech supports a shooting army, and would lean towards that approach, he'd probably also understand that a marine is better in close combat than a Necron, and will still use close combat to his advantage. Remember, there should probably be a big difference in "feel" of Necronized marines and regular Necrons - Necrons are a faceless, undead mass, while the marines have a bit more individuality, and are more of an elite strikeforce.

Ferrus Manus:

Are you sure including him would be a good idea? I'd avoid stating out gods and primarchs (I know the C'tan have profiles in the current Necron 'dex, but rumor is these are getting retconned as Necron Lords in altered bodies in the next 'dex).

Land Raiders:

I get that you're trying to avoid the Land Raiders from being too "typical Land Raider", but as is, with a portal, a couple of heavy guns and the arc, they're pretty much Monoliths with a different footprint.

I'd actually keep the concept of variants; it's something distinctly marine, but make sure the variants feel Necronish/unmarinelike. Say, one Land Raider variant with the Portal and two okayish (Immortal-style, perhaps) sponsons, and one Land Raider variant based purely around firepower (no portal), with Heavy Destroyer sponsons and the arc-crystal. The concepts of both a "pure-transport" Land Raider and a "pure gun-tank" Land Raider are both foreign to marines.

Sternguard:

Keeping the concept, but not the exact fluff, would be a good way to indicate these are still marines (to an extant); an experimental, alterable frequency gauss weapon, capable of varied shenanigans (template for one, rends more often for another), perhaps?

Assault Squads:

The IA does mention "specialized Assault squads" phasing in to attack, so a Warp Spiders-esque unit should probably be included. (The article also mentions that the nulls are often included in these units).

Pariahs:

Just having a straight-up "Pariah unit" wouldn't be a great approach, another example of the 'dex getting too close to just being Necrons. Making them an upgrade for units (such as how Space Wolves can upgrade models with the Mark of the Wulfen), representing them being distributed throughout the legion for the purpose of psychic defense, would be more appropriate.

Stalker:

Note on the Tomb Stalker: Stalkers, Spyders and Scarabs are all pure AI Necron constructs, if I'm not mistaken - no fiddling around with souls. If they had been constructed in the past, the possessed Ferrus Manus should know how to turn them on (even if they hadn't been constructed, he would probably know how to build them). They would be a good addition to the 'dex, having them fight alongside marines would give the army a very "I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore" spin.

Sorry if I seem too aggressive about this; I think the concept in the IA can make for a great army, but I think the current approach is just a bit "off".

Anyways, including Termies as troops is a good move for this 'dexs playstyle, and I am liking your concepts of how to implement dreads.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 30 November 2010 - 10:00 PM.


#5
Chapter Master Ignis Domus

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Note on the Land Raider Variants:
I'm talking about the current Redeemer, Crusader, Helios, Achilles, Terminus, etc.
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#6
Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer

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Note on the Land Raider Variants:
I'm talking about the current Redeemer, Crusader, Helios, Achilles, Terminus, etc.


Yeah, I got that part, I was thinking mainly about the statement of there being only 1 flavor of MonolithRaider, which kinda worried me since it seemed like the plan was to basically stick the Monolith's guns and portal onto an AV 14 all around chassis... which really isn't super different, apart from the altered mobility.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 30 November 2010 - 09:59 PM.


#7
Honda

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@RTJ: Actually, I like a lot of your ideas...like a lot. :lol:

So let me cogitate on your points for a few and I will get back on these. In general, I agree with you that looking at my original take, I was leaning heavily towards Necrons, but like what you are proposing.

So I think there is plenty of space for us to arrive at a middle ground.

Very good! Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Cheers,
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#8
Bannus

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If I might chime in, here are my thoughts:

Dornian Heresy IA Army List thoughts

1. I see a blend of Codex SM (Iron Hands meet Relictors), Necrons, and maybe a little Grey Knights.

To keep things simple - especially at first - I would focus on blending Space Marine and Necron material. As it gets refined, then think about other elements.

2. I see a focus on terminators, tacticals, and devastators for foot. Maybe an elite choice with “Pariah” characteristics. No fast attack. Heavy choices might be limited to Landraiders, maybe some sort of Thunderfire equivalent. So ponderous, but brutal.


To best represent the 'feel' of corrupted Space marines and not 'Necrons in power armor', I would use the comparisons between the Space Marine Codex and the Chaos Space Marine Codex as a guideline for just how far to go in the corruption process. Look at that organization - but with a Necron 'feel' instead of chaos.


3. All units in the army may Deep Strike. I would include a phase out rule to represent the Legion in its rebuilding phase and needing to preserve existing forces.

I think using the phase-out rule would work to represent the Iron Hands propensity for 'bugging out'.

4. Characters in the form of Iron Fathers would play a significant role. As Manus is still alive, he'll probably have C'tan-ish stats.

I'd be careful with Manus - but the Iron-Father could be very interesting.

5. Ideally, rather than try to make the list look like Space Marines with an “N” on their foreheads, I’d like to see an equal blend between SM and Necron abilities. So SM will give up a fair bit to gain what the Necrons would give them.

Keep in mind that limitations would need to be imposed to balance the gains. You want the list to be fun and challenging to play.

6. Landraiders have the Living Metal rule.

7. No transportation as teleportation will be the main form of moving things around when not walking.

There are a number of ways that this can be appliedwith limitations.

8. Thinking that Landraiders would act like Monoliths, i.e. provide portals for moving units around. More landraiders, more units can teleport around. Landraiders would still move on the ground, as they are improvements on existing technology, not completely different vehicles. There would need to be a cost balancing act going on, obviously.

Possible. But you may want to explore other options here.

9. All troops and vehicles will be armed with gauss weaponry.

I think that some fudging will be required to keep the army list balanced - even if it doesn't fit the wording verbatum. in particular, I'm talking about incorporating gauss weapony. If you give it to every Marine, a lot of limitations will be required just to balance this option alone. Maybe use gauss weaponry as only optional upgrades for special and heavy weapons. Allow an all-gauss weapon unit as a sort of Sternguard unit.

10. If I could find a way to work in the new FW Tomb Stalker, I would. :D

I don't see this fitting in so well for Space Marines.

If you don't mind - I'll kick around a few ideas and post them in a few days.
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#9
Chapter Master Ignis Domus

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Thanks to Bannus, I have had a sudden blast of inspiration. What if we were to have a set of upgrade choices like the old mutations except they were necron/bionic in nature, not necessarily using the same rules, though.
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#10
Bannus

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Just so we can have it as a ready reference, I have reposted the elements of the IA that would affect the rules and army building below:


Organisation
I
n the aftermath of the Medusan Cataclysm the clan companies were desperately few in number, but over the millennia they have steadily rebuilt their ranks so that each now contains many thousands of warriors. Each Iron Hand clan company is resolutely independent, isolated beneath the surface of their own world not just from humanity, but from the rest of the legion. Their insular nature is such that forces from different clan companies rarely fight alongside one another, except upon the orders of Ferrus Manus himself. The primarch still resolutely commands the scattered legion, and in recent centuries the silver which had before coated his hands has spread to cover his entire body. He moves between the clan companies in a heavily converted Battle-Barge, which contains at its heart the cavern that houses the Martian Artefact. With every visit to a clan company, Manus consults with their leaders, directs their research, collects fresh components, and designates new targets for raids.

The clan companies themselves are led by marines so ancient that most are veterans of the Great Crusade. With such great age comes immense experience and wisdom, which has been rewarded with complete mechanisation. So bulky and valuable is the Blantar equipment that fully mechanised marines must enter battle housed inside one of the legion’s suits of Terminator armour. Such is the veneration of these ancients that their presence is used to inspire and lead squads of their younger power armoured brethren on particularly critical missions.

While the commanders direct the clan companies in the ways of war, it is the Iron Fathers who lead the research into rebuilding the machineries of the Ancients and applying their secrets to strengthen the legion. Because of this, Iron Fathers hold extremely influential positions, not just within their clan companies, but amongst the wider legion, and are able to move unimpeded between Iron Hand worlds in pursuit of the next technological breakthrough.

Homeworlds
A
fter their evacuation from Medusa, the clan companies scattered to the forgotten corners of galaxy. There, hidden from prying eyes, they quietly and patiently rebuilt their bodies and worked to bring about their primarch’s master-plan. These new homeworlds were little more than lifeless lumps of rock, having been scoured of life aeons before in the war between the Ancients and the Ruinous Powers. Such barren worlds would have been the death of most settlers, but to the stoic former inhabitants of Medusa this was seen as simply another challenge.

While the Imperium degenerated into confusion and weakness, they lived underground among the ruins, raiding to get what they needed to painstakingly piece the vast machines back together. With the culmination of Manus’ great plan almost at hand, the Iron Hands have had to become ever bolder in their attacks to claim the final, vital items needed to activate the Martian Artefact. This has meant that their enemies, in particular the Eldar, the Thousand Sons and Sigismund’s Black Legion, search all the more intensively for the location of the Iron Hands. Though their bases are buried far beneath the surface of otherwise dead worlds, and are shielded from even the most determined of scans, it is surely only a matter of time before the hidden weaponry which protects the worlds of the Iron Hands are used in earnest.

Gene-seed
T
he Iron Hands recruit almost exclusively from amongst the attendant clans of the Medusan diaspora, both due to the need for secrecy and because of the natural superiority of such a hardy breed. The exceptions to this are those staggeringly rare individuals who, through a quirk of genetics, cast no shadow into the Warp. Similar to the Sisters of Silence, the mere presence of these Blanks or Psychic Nulls causes pain and unease amongst psykers and disrupts the use of their unnatural powers. So valuable are these abilities to the Iron Hands that despite their lower rates of successful gene-seed implantation than those recruited from the Medusan clans, the Iron Hands have been known to raid worlds specifically to capture these anomalies.

Those recruits strong enough to bear the stresses of the implantation process gain all the benefits of the Manus gene-line. However, they recognise that even as paragons of the human form they are still vulnerable to the predations of the Warp and the innate frailties of the flesh. To this end, the first act an Iron Hand undertakes upon becoming a full battle-brother is to symbolically have his left hand removed, and replaced by a bionic fist of unyielding metal. This is symbolic both of the sacrifice and loss suffered by their primarch on Istvaan, and the first step on a path they hope will lead to complete mechanisation. Although only the oldest and most senior members of the legion ever attain this lofty ideal, they retain a palpable link to their primarch even when every last gene-seed implant has been replaced by metal and circuitry.

Combat Doctrine
A
lways a technologically adept legion, the Iron Hands have used the xenos artefacts and secrets of the dead worlds unlocked by Ferrus Manus to give them access to weapons and abilities far exceeding those of the Imperium. Their phasing technology allows the Iron Hands to appear seemingly from nowhere, catching their opponents unawares. It is also used to instantaneously redeploy forces across the battlefield without the need for transport vehicles, pressing any advantage and allowing them to vanish again like wraiths should the tide of battle turn against them.

The Iron Hands have also applied their technological prowess to their weaponry, producing war-blades capable of shearing through not just the toughest of armour, but of overloading powerfields with ease. The legion has also forsaken their former arsenal of ranged weaponry for those based on the principle of gauss flux projection. This engulfs the target in a coruscating beam of energy which rapidly strips it away layer by layer, be it the flesh of a living being or the adamantium armour of a battle-tank. Every type of Iron Hand weapon uses this principle, from the basic sidearm to the heavy weapons carried by Devastator squads, with even more powerful examples found mounted upon vehicles such as the Predator and Land Raider.

The Iron Hands are coldly logical and methodical in their approach to combat, probing for areas of weakness and suppressing the enemy with ranged fire before their specialised Assault squads phase in to strike the final blow. This is where the Nulls are most commonly to be found. Their mere presence is an anathema to daemons and psykers, and they fill even normal humans with a sense of dread which makes their onslaughts so effective.

…knew how vital it was to destroy the Land Raider – that they were used to coordinate their forces and help them phase around the battlefield. We knew we had to stop it dead! The lieutenant sent me every melta-gunner in the platoon, and then threw everyone else against it as a diversion. I heard him urging them forward even while men were being flayed alive around him, but I don’t think there was anyone left by the time we got into range. We unleashed hell on that thing – more than enough firepower to melt it through to the planet’s core – and yet all it did was to burn off its ugly black paintwork. Just for a second it looked as though the metal beneath had liquefied – it rippled like mercury - but then it just reformed again and hardened. It wasn’t even warm…

- Testimony of Sergeant J.G. Lander, Tanakreg PDF




The IA article indicates that the Iron Hands use gauss weaponry exclusively. So we will have to find ways to carefully balance this concept with that of a Space Marine. One thing we should not do is change the basic profile of the Marines themselves (special characters are another matter, however). One thing we should count on is that entire units of Space Marines with gauss weaponry are going to have a higher base cost than those equipped with bolt weaponry because the Space Marine is a bit more capable than a Necron.

For the Pariah concept, I was thinking that this should be developed as an HQ - a single character instead of forming a unit (replacing the Librarian/Sorcerer). He would obviously be more powerful in effect than the Pariahs in terms of being a psychic null - with the cost and profile of an IC.

What do people think of this idea?

Edited by bannus, 03 December 2010 - 12:30 PM.

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#11
Bannus

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Thanks to Bannus, I have had a sudden blast of inspiration. What if we were to have a set of upgrade choices like the old mutations except they were necron/bionic in nature, not necessarily using the same rules, though.

That wasn't what I meant - but it is an interesting idea.

What I meant by looking at the Chaos Codex for how much to 'corrupt', I meant that we should largely keep consistent in this application what is consistent between the Space Marine Codex and Chaos one (character and vehicle profiles, the core units, etc) - but with a Necron 'feel' (i.e. treat the project just like the IA - Space Marines who are adapting Necron technology to their own ends). One thing we could look at is how the Chaos 'dex handles noise Marines and their more powerful weaponry - use it as a 'guage' for the basic concepts here, then playest to see the results. We also want to look at the limitations of the Necron 'dex and its weapons/army list - see what restrictions we would have to adopt to keep the army challenging, balanced and fun to play.
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#12
Culebras

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Just found this thread, and I love the idea and work so far. I had some thoughts I wanted to throw out for you. Warning, this may be a little long.

I started by making a list of all the units in a "classic" space marine army list and trying to re-envision them with a necron twist.

HQ
Captain/chapter master: keep the same, add in options from the Necron wargear section

Chaplain: You probably want to not include chaplains, what with the more logical, faithless elements of the source material. Alternatively, you could keep the stat line and treat the chaplain as some kind of champion of Ferrus, who has received some of the C'tan powers or abilities to represent his proximity to the "ideal" state of mechanization

Librarian: Take out obviously. perhaps replace with some kind of Uber-pariah character?

Elite
Dreadnought: A hybrid of the Tomb spyder and the dreadnought would be interesting, especially since you can easily take the tomb spyder's arms and substitute them for a dreadnoughts close combat weapon. since the Necrons don't have any template weapons, keep the flamer and heavy flamer options, but you can also allow them to take the gauss cannon or the Heavy Gauss cannon.

Terminators: making terminators a troop choice is a very interesting idea. the only problem is you are forcing the army into a very small size that plays against you if you include the phase out rule. instead of storm bolters, they should carry the Gauss blaster normally seen on immortals.

Tech-marine: it might be interesting to treat the tech marine like an apothecary in that he grants feel no pain. see below on the tactical marines.

Troops

Scouts: I don't really envision these iron hands fielding scouts as snipers in the traditional manner, so you could take a page from the space wolf codex and make them an elite choice, full marine stat line unit with some form of gaus sniper rifle.

Tactical marines: right now, vanilla tactical marines emphasize felxibility over specialization in shooting, cc, etc. Necrons warriors emphasize durability and shooting, with their lack of grenades and we'll be back rule. To keep from making tactical marines just warrior clones, you can do two things. First, pare down the number of upgrades available to their sergeant and special weapons available to the squad. Second, if we just give the tactical marines the "we'll be back" rule, then they are going to cost around 20 points a model!!! Instead, I think a good solution is to have them receive the "we'll be back" rule from another model that join the unit or is nearby much like how the resurrection orb item from the necron armory works. I would choose the like the techmarine, and possibly make a master of the forge HQ choice grant a similar but more enhanced version. That way, if the techmarine goes down, then the unit is easier to take down and thus more balanced.


Fast attack
Bikes: Contrary to common belief, necrons are not slow. They are often played slow because of an over reliance on foot slogging warriors, but units like destroyers and wraiths are jet bikes and can be very fast in their own right. you can easily adapt that idea to represent Iron hands that have been mechanized into half-marine/half-jetbike warriors. Once again, you can substitute gaus weapons for the bolters fairly easily.
For a real treat, instead of using the pariah units as the standard foot sloggers, have them be mounted on bikes wielding those nasty warscythes. Gaus lances? I need to think more on that...

Assault marines: Once again, I don't think the Iron hands all have to be slow. You can keep the assault marines in, but consider re-envisioning their role. Maybe gauss pistols instead of bolt pistols? replace the chain swords with some kind of anti armor weapon, like the one used by the tomb scarab swarms? Also, to keep the feel of the necron wraiths, I suggest stealing a page from the eldar codex and making the assault marines ignore difficult terrain. If those silly harlequins can do it with their anti-gravity belts, why not have iron hands who can simply phase through the terrain?

Land speeder: on the one hand, land speeders are about as close to skimmers as most marines get. However, they seem like quaint toys compared to other races. I really don't see any use for the land speeder.

Heavy support
Devastator: the problem with emphasizing devastators is that necron gauss weapons are...well...dull. there are only five types of gauss weapons in the codex and half can't be carried on foot. I guess you could have devastators choose between heavy and regular gauss cannons, but if you can put the same thing on a dreadnought, whats the point? if we are going to include devastators, they need to provide us with something we can't find on a dreadnought or another unit

Landraider: I agree with the earlier sentiment, you can't slap a portal on a land raider and guass weapons on the side and not call it a monolith. variations is key, and sadly I don't think you'll find much of that in the current necron dex.

Predator: I personally, thing you should turn the predator into a skimmer. It makes more sense for it to be a hybrid mini-monolith since it will have to fulfill the hole left by the complete absence of razorbacks or land speeders.


In summary: I prefer army lists that have some flexibility of choice rather than pigeon hole lists that only play well one way. I think that there need to be some caution here because the necron codex really pushes towards the latter, whereas the current space marine list heads toward the former. if you include terminators as troops, then that doesn't mean people will take 6 units of termies as they won't have the points for it, it just means they have fewer options for troops. If the troops have fewer options for upgrades, same problem. If you replace all the space marine weapons with gauss weapons, then you have fewer ways to differentiate dreads, devastators, and predators. The solution probably lies in different ammo and new home made weapon types. Gauss sniper rifles, gauss flamers, gauss assualt cannons. etc.

Anyway, those are just some thoughts I had. Feedback is always welcome.

#13
Honda

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Been out of town for a couple of days, so mainly absorbing and refining my mental model. Using the Chaos codex as a model for "corruption" is a very interesting idea. Will cogitate on that...

Very good Gentlemen...keep the juices flowing...

...and Bannus, I am very happy to see you here. I've been a big fan of your IH for many years.

Cheers,

Edited by Honda, 06 December 2010 - 02:22 AM.

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#14
Bannus

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Chaplain: You probably want to not include chaplains, what with the more logical, faithless elements of the source material. Alternatively, you could keep the stat line and treat the chaplain as some kind of champion of Ferrus, who has received some of the C'tan powers or abilities to represent his proximity to the "ideal" state of mechanization

I would like to adhere to the traditional IH fluff of the Iron-Father here - that is my vote.

Librarian: Take out obviously. perhaps replace with some kind of Uber-pariah character?

My thoughts too (see my post above). One thing I think all are in agreement on here is not doing the "one-for-one adaptation (either turning Necrons into Space Marines or turning Space Marines into Necrons. I think the list would be more flavorful if we adapt more ideas in a similar manner to this one.

Dreadnought: A hybrid of the Tomb spyder and the dreadnought would be interesting, especially since you can easily take the tomb spyder's arms and substitute them for a dreadnoughts close combat weapon. since the Necrons don't have any template weapons, keep the flamer and heavy flamer options, but you can also allow them to take the gauss cannon or the Heavy Gauss cannon.

Here, I think we are risking doing doing just what we want to avoid. The flamer weaponry will have to go (for game balance and consistency with the fluff). All ranged weaponry on the Dread will have to be gauss-flux. I think the "we'll be back" concept should not apply to the IH army (again, we should not be trying to turn Space Marines into Necrons), but applying it to the Dreadnought might be fun.

Terminators: making terminators a troop choice is a very interesting idea. the only problem is you are forcing the army into a very small size that plays against you if you include the phase out rule. instead of storm bolters, they should carry the Gauss blaster normally seen on immortals.

Terminators become very rare constructs in this alternate IA - only seen leading squads in special missions/detachments. I was thinking of treating them similar to the current Techmarine - a standard profile IC that occupies an Elite slot.

Tech-marine: it might be interesting to treat the tech marine like an apothecary in that he grants feel no pain. see below on the tactical marines.

This could be an adaptation of the Iron-Father or be omitted in favor of the Iron-Father.

Scouts: I don't really envision these iron hands fielding scouts as snipers in the traditional manner, so you could take a page from the space wolf codex and make them an elite choice, full marine stat line unit with some form of gaus sniper rifle.

I've always had trouble visualizing Scouts in an IH army - I am at a loss as to what to do with this one. Maybe omit them altogether? Remember, this army is on the "bad-guy" side in the alternate IA - Chaos Space Marines have no Scouts, why should the IH? In facct, the core units should be patterned more closely off of the Chaos 'dex instead of the Space Marine one.

right now, vanilla tactical marines emphasize felxibility over specialization in shooting, cc, etc. Necrons warriors emphasize durability and shooting, with their lack of grenades and we'll be back rule. To keep from making tactical marines just warrior clones, you can do two things. First, pare down the number of upgrades available to their sergeant and special weapons available to the squad. Second, if we just give the tactical marines the "we'll be back" rule, then they are going to cost around 20 points a model!!! Instead, I think a good solution is to have them receive the "we'll be back" rule from another model that join the unit or is nearby much like how the resurrection orb item from the necron armory works. I would choose the like the techmarine, and possibly make a master of the forge HQ choice grant a similar but more enhanced version. That way, if the techmarine goes down, then the unit is easier to take down and thus more balanced.

Tactical Squads (as the core troop choice) will have to be treated very carefully. the balance of the whole army will depend on it.

To be consistent with the IA, the unit will have to have gauss weaponry - period. That will mean a higher base cost. I agree that the Sergeants options should be reduced (maybe even eliminated). To avoid the unit being Warrior clones, perhaps we should use the other Necron weapons as special and heavy weapons for this unit?


Bikes: Contrary to common belief, necrons are not slow. They are often played slow because of an over reliance on foot slogging warriors, but units like destroyers and wraiths are jet bikes and can be very fast in their own right. you can easily adapt that idea to represent Iron hands that have been mechanized into half-marine/half-jetbike warriors. Once again, you can substitute gaus weapons for the bolters fairly easily.
For a real treat, instead of using the pariah units as the standard foot sloggers, have them be mounted on bikes wielding those nasty warscythes. Gaus lances? I need to think more on that...

I think this might be turning Space Marines into Necrons again. Maybe using the Necron technology to develop a new style of "jet" bike?

Assault marines: Once again, I don't think the Iron hands all have to be slow. You can keep the assault marines in, but consider re-envisioning their role. Maybe gauss pistols instead of bolt pistols? replace the chain swords with some kind of anti armor weapon, like the one used by the tomb scarab swarms? Also, to keep the feel of the necron wraiths, I suggest stealing a page from the eldar codex and making the assault marines ignore difficult terrain. If those silly harlequins can do it with their anti-gravity belts, why not have iron hands who can simply phase through the terrain?

I think treating them more like Warp Spyders is the way to go here. Either that, or give them special teleport/portal rules instead of relying on jump packs.
Weaponry could include a type of gauss pistol or (possibly a game balance thing here), not allow a pistol gauss weapon at all. The members of the squad must choose between a ranged weapon (gauss) or close combat weapon (warscythe). It is a radical idea that would need some serious scrutiny - but I'm just throwing it out there.

Land speeder: on the one hand, land speeders are about as close to skimmers as most marines get. However, they seem like quaint toys compared to other races. I really don't see any use for the land speeder.

Land Speeders are post-Heresy developments anyway - so the IH should not have them.

Devastator: the problem with emphasizing devastators is that necron gauss weapons are...well...dull. there are only five types of gauss weapons in the codex and half can't be carried on foot. I guess you could have devastators choose between heavy and regular gauss cannons, but if you can put the same thing on a dreadnought, whats the point? if we are going to include devastators, they need to provide us with something we can't find on a dreadnought or another unit

Half of those weapons cannot be carried by Warriors on foot - who is to say that Space Marines can't carry them? I say give Dev's the heavy gauss weapons. It is a good way to distinguish them from Necrons.

Landraider: I agree with the earlier sentiment, you can't slap a portal on a land raider and guass weapons on the side and not call it a monolith. variations is key, and sadly I don't think you'll find much of that in the current necron dex.

Do we want all Land Raiders to be so equipped? Or just "special" ones?

Predator: I personally, thing you should turn the predator into a skimmer. It makes more sense for it to be a hybrid mini-monolith since it will have to fulfill the hole left by the complete absence of razorbacks or land speeders.

An interesting idea. Maybe a "skimmer" upgrade for any vehicle - like extra armor?


In summary: I prefer army lists that have some flexibility of choice rather than pigeon hole lists that only play well one way. I think that there need to be some caution here because the necron codex really pushes towards the latter, whereas the current space marine list heads toward the former. if you include terminators as troops, then that doesn't mean people will take 6 units of termies as they won't have the points for it, it just means they have fewer options for troops. If the troops have fewer options for upgrades, same problem. If you replace all the space marine weapons with gauss weapons, then you have fewer ways to differentiate dreads, devastators, and predators. The solution probably lies in different ammo and new home made weapon types. Gauss sniper rifles, gauss flamers, gauss assualt cannons. etc.

I agree that meshing the two concepts should be deliberated at every point.
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#15
DerekLee688

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IH may not have acess to Land Speeders as Marines know them, the fact that they have acess to destroyer technology means they should have something similar filling the same role as Land speeders/Destroyers. A light/fast attack unit to fill the role of scout/skirmisher/tank buster is presnt in both parent codexes (C:Necrons & C:SM), and they are characteristic of the swift rading nature of IH doctrine since their exodus from the main stage. This codex needs such a vehicle/unit.

This begs the question, would there be a Dread/Destroyer or a pilotable vehicle for a marine to get in?

I'd like to toss up some ideas for dreads:

Destroyer dread "skimmer dread"- would deffinatly be the lightest armored dread and being the opposite of the IronClad dread.

Phase dread- a combination of the BA's Libby+wings dread & their CC monster dreads. IH technology and marine doctrine could support such a mobile and CC danger with armor and Invuln save ignoring claws. (BA players can take this as a blatent ripp or a flattering immitation)

Iron Clad dread- Where the Destroyer has tonnage allocated to skimmer equipment and the Phase Dread tonnage to teleporter equipment, the IH Ironclad would have that tonnage devoted to heavier weapons/armor.

IMO, sorting out the phase rules should be a high priority. Are units deep struck from orbit or by a planetside device? What range would personal phase devices have? Are phase devices standard on TDA? (Phase assult termies *Drool) Will Necron inspired phase tech have less disadvantages compared to Eldar spider technology?

Personal phase packs could have the big 12" jump or a 6" move hop and 6" assault hop.

A Dread phase device could have longer range or greater accuratcy in the assumption that a bigger/heavier device is better than what could be done with a "man portable" device chould do, much in the same logic a dread/vehicle can support extra systems such as adiquate cooling for plasma weapons.

Finally, I vote against the single Monolith varent of the LR. I'd like to see at least two versions of LR present in the Codex. A long range AT killer like the Godhammer version, and one focusing on transport capasity and shorter range weapons like that of the Crusaider and Redeemer. IH still needs an armored box to sit on objectives. A monolith Raider with teleportation capability should be reserved for Apocalypse games, I would imagine it granting accurate phaseing to units within a bubble.

I hope some of this proves useful, oh well if it doesn't.
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#16
Bannus

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Before we go too much further, I think it best that we set guidelines and goals for the project.

Do want this list to ultimately be playable?

How extensive of conversions do we want to encourage?

What is the ultimate goal of the project?

Without proper guidelines, a project like this can go round and round without ever getting anywhere.
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#17
Honda

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Before we go too much further, I think it best that we set guidelines and goals for the project.


Agreed. As I can answer these "framework" questions easier, than some of the other points, I'll endeavor to help us by shaping the goals.

Do want this list to ultimately be playable?


Yes, very. Anyone can throw a bunch of "stuff" together and try to pawn it off on an unsuspecting opponent. My intentions from the get go have been:

1. Remain true to the fluff. The article is what inspired me to take this on. I have some experience in developing similar projects in the Epic world and producing a playable list is a lot of work. Part of that work is producing something that people will enjoy while remaining consistent with the original vision.

2. Produce a product that is as balanced as we can get it. In other words, a very playable list. However, I also think it needs to be fun to play, so that means it ought to have flexibility in the creation of the list and how it plays. The ideal list would be intriguing enough of a concept that people not familiar with the Dornian Heresy might want to check it out and the more adventurous be willing to play the list. So I think it will be critical to establishing our credibility that the choices we've made make sense (because of #1).

3. I am also striving for a list that will inspire others to model this list, if only in part. I don't think it's going to have the same effect as say a new GW produced product, but if we develop our own little following for the DH, that would be a good thing...if for no other reason that some will wonder what in the world we are doing. So, the entries (at least some of them) should strive to test our creativity in support of the list.

How extensive of conversions do we want to encourage?


I am strongly in favor of providing as many opportunities as we can.

What is the ultimate goal of the project?


Ideally, a somewhat easy to use, easy to share pdf with a hobby section. I don't know if that answers your question.

Without proper guidelines, a project like this can go round and round without ever getting anywhere.


Now, it is my intention to push us in a general direction, much like a project manager. If I were to extend that analogy, I would consider Aurelius Rex our project sponsor, with me being the nice "jerk" that keeps us on focus and moving forward.

It's what I do for a living. :P

My intention is to guide because it's been my experience in this sort of collaborative effort that someone has to "own" the project. Consensus efforts fail because they generally produce a camel instead of a quarter horse and then die because there is no mechanism for resolving conflicts.

I definitely intend to push the team to explore and "get out of the box" as far as thinking goes. One of the reasons I wanted to guide this effort is that, not only have I been an IH closet fan boy for awhile, but we have the opportunity to deliver something significantly different than all the other chapters, with the exception of the perhaps the Ultramarines, at least as far as released articles go.

Most of the others can be put together from a few bits and pieces from the other codexes, not that that would be a necessarily simple task, but we have the opportunity to really produce something very unique. So within the context of the fluff, I intend to stretch us in regards to how the list could be composed. It would be easy to do a one to one port and just stick green bits on the end of our bolters.

We should strive for a lot more.

So, a bit of a long winded monologue, but I wanted to answer the question and provide what I would consider the charter for the project.

I will start digesting all the comments and try to narrow things down a bit. All things being equal, I'd like to have a summary of sorts up before the end of the weekend.

Cheers,
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#18
Bannus

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If you are willing to indulge me, a few more questions:

Since the Iron Hands (along with the other 'Loyalist' Legions) are now on the heretical side of the war, do we use the Chaos 'dex as the basic 'template' to build upon or are we going to use the Space Marine 'dex?

In adapting the Necron angle to the Iron Hands, do we want the final product to look like the Iron Hands are transforming slowly into Necrons or will they be Space Marines who have utilized Necron technology to their own ends?
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#19
DerekLee688

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The chaos dex doesn't have too much to offer IH in the way of compatible fluff as most of their stuff is daemon powered. Possessed, cult, mutation, and daemons pretty much sums up all the good stuff. C:SM is where its at, after all they are the "vanilla dex" with the most non-unique SM equipment/vehicles.

I believe marines useing necron tech. is the most accurate way to describe what DH:IH are. I recall no mentions of "experimental marines" or any test activations of the device, so createing necro-marines would be stretching what little fluff we have.





What needs to be done first to prepare for a dex/list/pdf./etc. is a solid groundwork of what can and can't be done according to fluff.
Resurection:No
Gauss replace Bolters:Yes
etc.
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#20
Honda

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I believe marines useing necron tech. is the most accurate way to describe what DH:IH are. I recall no mentions of "experimental marines" or any test activations of the device, so createing necro-marines would be stretching what little fluff we have.


This is currently how I am thinking as well.

What needs to be done first to prepare for a dex/list/pdf./etc. is a solid groundwork of what can and can't be done according to fluff.
Resurection:No
Gauss replace Bolters:Yes
etc.


Agreed. I am going to take a first cut at this over the weekend. I will also attach some of my reasoning for the choices so that you guys don't have to do the old "Amazing Karnak" gig (all apologies to Johnny Carson).

Cheers,
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#21
Chengar Qordath

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So, just to toss out an idea of what an Iron Hands tac-equivalent squad would look like so that we have a bit of a starting point for discussion. To be honest, getting a nice selection of units with the current Necron codex is going to be tricky; Marines are all about options and flexibility, and Necrons have a very short selection of options and wargear.

For the record, I'm currently thinking that "The Flesh is Weak" could be something like 4th-edition bionics, since it would be perfectly fluffy for the Iron Hands and would give the army a bit more of a Necron-esque feel.

Iron Hands Tactical Squad
UnitWSBSSTWIALdSv
Iron Hands Sergeant444414293+
Iron Hands Marines444414193+


Iron Hands Tactical Squad {Troops}..........X points
Unit TypeUnit CompositionWargearSpecial RulesDedicated Transport
  • Unit Type
  • 1 Iron Hands Sergeant
  • 4 Iron Hands Marines
  • Gauss Flayer
  • Close Combat Weapon
  • Power Armor
  • Frag Grenades
  • Disruption Fields
  • And They Shall Know No Fear
  • Combat Squads
  • The Flesh Is Weak
  • Rhino
  • Razorback


  • May Add up to five Iron Hands Marines: X points per model
  • If the Squad numbers ten models, one Iron Hands Marine may replace his Gauss Flayer with:
    • A Gauss Blaster: +X points
  • If the Squad numbers ten models, one Iron Hands Marine may replace his Gauss Flayer with:
    • A Gauss Cannon: +X points
    • A Heavy Gauss Cannon: +X points
  • The Iron Hands Sergeant may replace his Gauss Flayer and/or Close Combat Weapon with:
    • A Power Weapon: +15 points
  • The Iron Hands Sergeant may take:
    • A Teleport Homer: +15 points

Edited by Chengar Qordath, 10 December 2010 - 01:50 PM.

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#22
Bannus

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I was thinking along similar lines - but I feel that more limitations need to be imposed to offset the gauss weaponry. Remember, this weapon is like special ammo for Sternguard - it can kill anything....tanks, infantry, etc.

I don't think they should have ATSKNF because they are no longer in the Emperor's light.

Adding any kind of FNP rule will also imbalance the unit (unless it is restricted to the Sergeant only). Adding the gauss weaponry alone to a Space Marine is potent enough.

I like the disruption fields, but I think the Iron Hands would forgo all imperial weaponry and ditch the frag grenades too.


Here is where I am wondering if we shouldn't use the Chaos 'dex as the base. The Iron Hands will not have been influenced by the Codex Astartes and would still be following traditional legion unit composition.
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#23
DerekLee688

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What weapons, if any, are useful enough to keep? Flamer/Heavy flamer/Missle launcher,etc. and we need to establish the level of Necron tech the IH have acess to. For example, does the IH have the expetese to build gauss blasters or do they have to make twinlinked flayers; mirroring the progress from bolters-->TL-bolter-->Storm Bolter. I feel that if we knock off all the traditional weapons, then that would severly limit the options we can build with.

I purpose a two tier approach to unit technology. The top one of course being marines in PA/TDA wielding gauss technology for planetary assaults and such. The "second line" units all get the hand-me-down weapons for either lack of training or to avoid the risk of some raiding force losing such weapons behind enemy lines. Necron tech should come at a premium in points, the 25pt. sternguard/noise-marine comes to mind; and regular bolter and chainsword type equipment should be discounted, thinking of sisters of battle/blood claw.


I believe I'm the most ignorant of the finer points of IH fluff, so I have to ask. How do IH treat their innitiates? Are they scouts, vehicle crew, or issued PA?
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#24
Bannus

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What weapons, if any, are useful enough to keep?


From the IA:

"The legion has also forsaken their former arsenal of ranged weaponry for those based on the principle of gauss flux projection."

To me, it means that they have forsaken all of their ranged weaponry for gauss weapons.

I purpose a two tier approach to unit technology. The top one of course being marines in PA/TDA wielding gauss technology for planetary assaults and such. The "second line" units all get the hand-me-down weapons for either lack of training or to avoid the risk of some raiding force losing such weapons behind enemy lines. Necron tech should come at a premium in points, the 25pt. sternguard/noise-marine comes to mind; and regular bolter and chainsword type equipment should be discounted, thinking of sisters of battle/blood claw.

We may have to go this route for the purposes of game balance. But I feel we should explore adhering the existing fluff first.

I believe I'm the most ignorant of the finer points of IH fluff, so I have to ask. How do IH treat their innitiates? Are they scouts, vehicle crew, or issued PA?

What fluff exists for them as a loyalist chapter would not apply as a renegade/heretical chapter. Personally, I'd omit that aspect as it has been done for the Chaos Legions.
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#25
DerekLee688

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Scraping an entire legion worth of weapons seems very un-spartain to me. Now wether or not IH still adhire to such ideals is beyond me, perhaps they do scrap obsolete technology like tech freaks tend to do.

So are we giving IH the pure-uncut Necron dex weapons, reflecting they have mastered the technology, or are we going for an earlier period of Marine/Necro tech. still being adapted to legion tactics?
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