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[DH] Dornian Heresy - Iron Hands Codex - Variant H


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#26
Bannus

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Scraping an entire legion worth of weapons seems very un-spartain to me. Now wether or not IH still adhire to such ideals is beyond me, perhaps they do scrap obsolete technology like tech freaks tend to do.

That is what the IA implies.

So are we giving IH the pure-uncut Necron dex weapons, reflecting they have mastered the technology, or are we going for an earlier period of Marine/Necro tech. still being adapted to legion tactics?

For the sake of making the rules acceptable to other players, I would say we stick with the profiles of the Necron weapons as much as is possible. The only thing I would see adding (based on the IA) would be a pistol weapon (12" range, Pistol1 - other stats as flayer and blaster).


Here is a possible Troops selection:

IRON HANDS RAIDER SQUAD


WSBSSTWIALdSv
Iron Hands Sergeant4444142103+
Iron Hands Marine444414193+

115 points
Unit CompositionUnit TypeWargearSpecial Rules
  • 1 Iron Hands Sergeant
  • 4 Iron Hands Marines
  • Infantry
  • Power armor
  • Gauss flayer
  • Disruption fields
  • Deep Strike

Options:
  • May include up to fifteen additional Iron Hands Marines......................+20 points per model.
  • One Iron Hands Marine may replace his Gauss Flayer with a Gauss Blaster..............+5 pnts.
  • If the squad numbers 10 or more, one Iron Hands Marine may replace his Gauss Flayer with
    a Gauss Blaster for +5 pnts, a Gauss Cannon for +w pnts or a Heavy Gauss Cannon for +x pnts.
  • The Iron Hands Sergeant may take a Warscythe for +z points.
    (The Sergeant might be allowed other options - like the pistol mentioned above - but I would limit those options to only a few)



This is patterned somewhat after the the basic Chaos Space Marine Troops organization which we can assume better reflects what it was like around the time of the Heresy. Points are for reference and are "ballpark" where noted. We could change the names of the Necron weapons (as I think we should) to reflect that it is adapted technology - but don't alter the profiles. So we could call them Gauss Rifle (instead of Gauss Flayer), Gauss Gun (instead of Gauss Blaster) and something completely different for the Warscythe type weapon.

Edited by bannus, 13 December 2010 - 07:31 PM.

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#27
Machine God

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Scraping an entire legion worth of weapons seems very un-spartain to me. Now whether or not IH still adhire to such ideals is beyond me, perhaps they do scrap obsolete technology like tech freaks tend to do.

So are we giving IH the pure-uncut Necron dex weapons, reflecting they have mastered the technology, or are we going for an earlier period of Marine/Necro tech. still being adapted to legion tactics?


What about using Bolters for the models for Troops with the equivalent Gauss stat line? Like a magazine of green tipped bolt shells with containing Gauss Bolts.

The only time consuming thing about this thread will be filing off All the Aquila's from my Marines! But I was intending to do that anyway.

Edited by Scion of Ferrus, 11 December 2010 - 02:30 AM.

"Borg to the Max!" "Destroy All Flesh!"
 
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#28
Honda

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I like the start that Bannus has taken. There's a couple of points that I think will help us adjust to the fact that these aren't your Momma's Iron Hands:

1. Ferrus Manus is not who he physically appears to be. He has in some unexplained way, been possessed by the spirit of the Dragonshard.

2. Because of #1, Imperial influence and experience on how the chapter behaves and operates is going to be reduced significantly. The reference point for this list is as the Iron Hands are now within the DH framework. Weaponry in particular has transcended beyond what the Imperium is capable of.

One note here on the Gauss weaponry. Do keep in mind that 5th edition has toned down the basic gauss shot. Not to say that the new Necron codex won't address this, but for the time being, realize that it is not as strong as it was in 4th edition.

Now, we could very easily put space marine heads on Necron bodies and be done with this exercise, but I think that would be a cop out. I think there is a diamond of an idea in this story and we have the potential to produce something very unique.

One thing I am curious about is the Ld of 9 for the basic trooper. I'm not saying that isn't something we'll end up doing, but where did that come from? Is that a Necron Ld value?

More later...
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#29
Bannus

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One note here on the Gauss weaponry. Do keep in mind that 5th edition has toned down the basic gauss shot. Not to say that the new Necron codex won't address this, but for the time being, realize that it is not as strong as it was in 4th edition.

Yes, it has been reduced a bit, but like the assault cannon, the weapon is still very potent.

One thing I am curious about is the Ld of 9 for the basic trooper. I'm not saying that isn't something we'll end up doing, but where did that come from? Is that a Necron Ld value?

I did this off the top of my head - as it has been a little while since I looked at my Chaos 'dex. The idea was to match the profiles and organization of the Chaos Space Marine units - once I have time to double-check my 'dex, I'll correct any profile errors.

The higher Ld represents their devotion to their beliefs. Like Chaos Marines, they are very highly motivated and - also like Chaos Marines - do not benefit from ATSKNF.
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#30
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I don't see the Ld 9 as being a problem as we'll cost appropriately, just curious as to the source. Necs are Ld 10 and C:SM are 8. I didn't realize that CSM were 9.

I ordered some Nec bits today, so hopefully, I can do a little modeling over the holidays.
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#31
Bannus

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If you liked the basic unit from above, then what I have posted below would be a logical extension of that unit (note that I made a small adjustment to the Sergeant's profile to match that of the Chaos Marines). Basically, I applied the same adaptation to the Chaos Havoc squad:



IRON HANDS SUPPRESSOR SQUAD


WSBSSTWIALdSv
Iron Hands Sergeant4444142103+
Iron Hands Marine444414193+

115 points
Unit CompositionUnit TypeWargearSpecial Rules
  • 1 Iron Hands Sergeant
  • 4 Iron Hands Marines
  • Infantry
  • Power armor
  • Gauss flayer
  • Disruption fields
  • Deep Strike

Options:
  • May include up to fifteen additional Iron Hands Marines......................+20 points per model.
  • Up to four Iron Hands Marines may replace their Gauss Flayer with a Gauss Blaster
    for +5 pnts, a Gauss Cannon for +w pnts or a Heavy Gauss Cannon for +x pnts.
  • The Iron Hands Sergeant may take a Warscythe for +z points.
    (The Sergeant might be allowed other options - like the pistol mentioned above - but I would limit those options to only a few)

Edited by bannus, 13 December 2010 - 07:32 PM.

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#32
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Alright, I had a few more ideas this morning specifically dealing with the vehicles.

Let's see what people think:


Land Raider: The Iron Hands (using acquired Necron Technology) adapt it to be a skimmer - using the Ponderous rule as a Necron Monolith. It has Living Metal technology and replaces its twin-linked heavy bolters with twin-linked gauss cannons and replaces its twin-linked lascannons with twin-linked heavy gauss cannons. An option would allow it to replace its transport capability and twin-linked gauss cannons with a power matrix. It could have an optional pintle-mounted gauss blaster and pintle-mounted particle projector.

Rhino: The Rhino isn't really required as a dedicated transport if the army deep strikes and phases out like a Necron army. So the Rhino would also be adapted using Necron technology as a fast attack vehicle. It would be a Skimmer (Fast) and take up a Fast Attack slot in the Force Organization Chart. It would be armed with a gauss blaster (option for a second) and could upgrade its gauss blaster to a gauss cannon or heavy gauss cannon. It would retain its transport capability. This would - in effect - serve as an Iron Hands 'Destroyer' or 'Heavy Destroyer'...but with a transport capability - also handy for hauling cargo, such as stolen technology and resources.

Predator: The Predator would also be a Skimmer (Fast) and be equipped with a turret mounted heavy gauss cannon with the option of sponson-mounted gauss cannons or heavy gauss cannons. It could have an optional pintle-mounted gauss blaster.

Vindicator: Same treatment as the Predator except the Demolisher cannon is replaced with a Particle Whip.

Dreadnought: The Dreadnought would be the only other vehicle to benefit from the Living Metal rule. I thought about a skimmer option - but decided against it. I think the Dread needs to walk among its disciples! It would have a DCCW with built-in gauss blaster (upgradeable to a particle projector) - the DCCW should remain standard w/no option of being replaced....it would be odd for an Iron Hands Dreadnought not to have an "iron hand" after all! The other arm would be armed with twin-linked gauss cannons (also upgradeable to a heavy gauss cannons). The DCCW might even have the warschythe's ability. Other possible options could include the Lightning Field, Solar Pulse and Veil of Darkness - provided the Dreadnought occupies an HQ slot.


And here is an idea for the psychic null (name needs work):


IRON-SUPERIOR

WSBSSTWIALdSv
Iron-Superior5444242103+

100 points
Unit CompositionUnit TypeWargearSpecial Rules
  • 1 Iron-Superior (unique)
  • Infantry
  • Power armor
  • Warscythe
  • Gauss Blaster
  • Phase Shifter
  • Disruption Fields
  • Independent Character
  • Deep Strike
  • Psychic Null
  • Soulless (see Codex Necrons)


Psychic Null: Any psyker within 24" of an Iron-Superior at the start of their turn must make take a Morale Check or fall back with any squad they are attached to. If the psyker fails the moral test while in close combat, he will not fall back but will only hit on a 6+ in the close combat phase. If a psyker is required to take a psychic test (while using one of his powers) within 24" of the Iron-Superior, he must re-roll any successful tests. The second result stands even if it succeeds again.

The Iron-Superior is an HQ selection.

Edited by bannus, 13 December 2010 - 07:03 PM.

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#33
Chengar Qordath

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I think the current base Iron Hand Marines are a bit overpriced. Gauss guns and deep strike are nice, but they're not worth 5 points per model extra, especially since compared to base CSMs they lose Ultragrit and the Grenades.
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#34
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A couple of early comments/thoughts while I borg the rest for later:

1. I think the tac squad should replace the vet sgt with a terminator equipped, matrix personality leader. I would give him a war scythe and a gauss pistol.

2. Vehicles thoughts:

- a. The fluff specifically mentions Landraiders and Predators. I would like us to drop the rest...it's too C:SM, too space mariney.

- b. Flying LR and preds...I really have to think about that. I'm not against the concept specifically....well, maybe a little, but I wonder if there is a way to approach this without becoming comical. I'm not trying to make light of your thoughts, but there is a bit of a barrier there. I don't know if you've tried socializing some of these ideas around yet, but people are watching this effort rather closely.

As a counter thought, what if we melded a Landspeeder to the firepower of a Predator? Then leave the Landraider on the ground.

3. I think the rest of the tac squad is good enough to test with.

4.

It has Living Metal technology and replaces its twin-linked heavy bolters with twin-linked gauss cannons and replaces its twin-linked lascannons with twin-linked heavy gauss cannons. An option would allow it to replace its transport capability and twin-linked gauss cannons with a power matrix.


I am in full support of all this.

5. Iron Superior - I like this concept a lot. I am in favor of putting it in one of the HQ slots. However, I don't want this to replace a Pariah equivalent unit in Elites. So do some of your mojo on that idea if you don't mind and let's see what you come up with. Your on a roll. :cuss

6. Suppressor squad: I think you're on the right track. We should probably cut them down to max 10 for squad size. From a gaming perspective, nobody is going to wrap that many ablative wounds around the larger weapons...also consider an idea below...

7. Synergy - something I'd like you to be thinking about.

How are the various units going to work together. In general, old style Necrons operated like an infantry phalanx with the other units in a supporting role...like Spartans (the Greek ones, not HALO). So in this concept, we have tactical squads advancing to secure objectives (the missing tech), eliminating any resistance as efficiently as possible, then bailing out.

So...while I was envisioning this vague idea, I started thinking about heavy weapons that are not static, but move with the phalanx and support it. So then I was thinking about a unit of 5 terminators equipped with heavy gauss weaponry, marching along with the tactical phalanx, addressing threats until the objective was secured. What think?

8. Overall FOC at this point seems to look like:

HQ:

Named Character <Gabriel Santar?>
Iron Father
Iron Supreme

I'm Ok with holding off on Ferrus for the time being. He shouldn't be critical to the list, unless other list champions decide to go that route like the list creators for Tempus Fugitives, where the primarchs were modeled.

Elites:

Dreads (agree with you that they should be walkers, with a large warscythe and gauss weaponry, thinking on Living metal)
Iron Primes - Pariah equivalent...this could easily be a retinue for Iron Superiors
Tomb Constructs - Tomb Spyder/Stalker equivalent

Troops:

Tactical squad (leaning towards the squad led by Terminator Matrix Leader, squad size 5-20)

Support:

Landraider (with gauss weaponry, Living Metal, possibility of power matrix)
Flying Pred (heavy gauss weaponry, skimmer)
Also thinking about some sort of Pylon type of weapon. It would be static and have a nasty gauss thing on it.

Army Rules:

All units may deep strike
Phase Out
<what else do we need here?>
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#35
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1. I think the tac squad should replace the vet sgt with a terminator equipped, matrix personality leader. I would give him a war scythe and a gauss pistol.

I believe it should be an upgrade/option - but not mandatory. He should be armed with a gauss blaster - not a pistol if so equipped. As an alternative, I was toying with the idea of making Terminators in the IH army IC's that take up an elites slot (similar to the Sanguinary Priests of the Blood Angels).

2. Vehicles thoughts:

- a. The fluff specifically mentions Landraiders and Predators. I would like us to drop the rest...it's too C:SM, too space mariney.

That doesn't mean the Iron Hands don't use the other vehicles common to both Space Marines and Chaos Marines. I made variations of the vehicles common to both. It seems likely that this would remain consistent even in this alternate reality.

- b. Flying LR and preds...I really have to think about that. I'm not against the concept specifically....well, maybe a little, but I wonder if there is a way to approach this without becoming comical. I'm not trying to make light of your thoughts, but there is a bit of a barrier there. I don't know if you've tried socializing some of these ideas around yet, but people are watching this effort rather closely.

It isn't really that significant in terms of game rules - but visually would give them a high-tech look. Instead of rolling on tracks on the ground, they are hovering just above it.

As a counter thought, what if we melded a Landspeeder to the firepower of a Predator? Then leave the Landraider on the ground.

The Speeder hadn't been discovered at the time of the Heresy and is only available to the loyalists.

3. I think the rest of the tac squad is good enough to test with.

As I stated earlier, the numbers are "ballpark" and we can adjust them accordingly.

4.

It has Living Metal technology and replaces its twin-linked heavy bolters with twin-linked gauss cannons and replaces its twin-linked lascannons with twin-linked heavy gauss cannons. An option would allow it to replace its transport capability and twin-linked gauss cannons with a power matrix.


I am in full support of all this.

It seemed logical.

5. Iron Superior - I like this concept a lot. I am in favor of putting it in one of the HQ slots. However, I don't want this to replace a Pariah equivalent unit in Elites. So do some of your mojo on that idea if you don't mind and let's see what you come up with. Your on a roll. :D

To keep the concept unique, I was intentionally avoiding the idea of a Space Marine 'Pariah' unit with a one-for-one exchange. It didn't make sense to me. Whereas the Pariahs are 'built', the nulls of the Iron Hands must be 'found'. I don't see that resulting in a process where entire units of nulls could be sustained.

6. Suppressor squad: I think you're on the right track. We should probably cut them down to max 10 for squad size. From a gaming perspective, nobody is going to wrap that many ablative wounds around the larger weapons...also consider an idea below...

People may not take that many ablative wounds. I was following the Havoc pattern which should be the organization for units around the Heresy time period. The same should also apply to the Assault Squad unit - it should also have a maximum of 20 - it seems to be the Legion standard during the Heresy and the Iron Hands would not be influenced by the Codex.

7. Synergy - something I'd like you to be thinking about.

How are the various units going to work together. In general, old style Necrons operated like an infantry phalanx with the other units in a supporting role...like Spartans (the Greek ones, not HALO). So in this concept, we have tactical squads advancing to secure objectives (the missing tech), eliminating any resistance as efficiently as possible, then bailing out.

So...while I was envisioning this vague idea, I started thinking about heavy weapons that are not static, but move with the phalanx and support it. So then I was thinking about a unit of 5 terminators equipped with heavy gauss weaponry, marching along with the tactical phalanx, addressing threats until the objective was secured. What think?


The army should function similar to a Necron army - get in, get what you want and get out. To that end, I kinda added a bit of Dark Eldar influence with the Fast Rhinos acting almost like DE transports - something to haul the loot away in.

I think we should first work on them according to the fluff:

"The clan companies themselves are led by marines so ancient that most are veterans of the Great Crusade. With such great age comes immense experience and wisdom, which has been rewarded with complete mechanisation. So bulky and valuable is the Blantar equipment that fully mechanised marines must enter battle housed inside one of the legion’s suits of Terminator armour. Such is the veneration of these ancients that their presence is used to inspire and lead squads of their younger power armoured brethren on particularly critical missions."

It implies that Terminators are more rare in this alternate reality - I don't see them serving in whole units.

8Elites:

Dreads (agree with you that they should be walkers, with a large warscythe and gauss weaponry, thinking on Living metal)
Iron Primes - Pariah equivalent...this could easily be a retinue for Iron Superiors
Tomb Constructs - Tomb Spyder/Stalker equivalent

I don't see the Tomb Spyder or Pariah unit as being particularly 'adaptable' by the Iron Hands.

We should add Techmarines and Servitors to the Elites.

Support:

Landraider (with gauss weaponry, Living Metal, possibility of power matrix)
Flying Pred (heavy gauss weaponry, skimmer)
Also thinking about some sort of Pylon type of weapon. It would be static and have a nasty gauss thing on it.

The pylon is an Apocalypse weapon - are we going to develop weapons for this aspect of the game as well?

Army Rules:

All units may deep strike
Phase Out
<what else do we need here?>


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run the zombies....just the guy next to you.
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#36
Chengar Qordath

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While a landspeeder wouldn't work on account of being post-heresy tech, I think we definitely want something that will more or less fit into it's overall role in the army list. A fast-moving firepower-focused skimmer or jetbike unit would be very in character for a combined Necron-Marine force, after all.

Also, on the topic of Terminators I don't really see how the fluff piece particularly implies that Terminators are rare in the Iron Hands; all it says is that fully mechanized Iron Hands are always in Terminator Armor and leading power-armor squads. Considering the fact that squad leaders are fully mechanized, they should probably have different statlines too. I would say either allow sergeants to take it and have standard Terminators, or give Iron Hand Terminators a rule similar to the Pack Leaders rule that Wolf Guard have so you can split some off to be squad leaders.
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#37
DerekLee688

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I believe IH were destened to either have Land Speeders or Necron hover destroyers. A combination of the two seem to be in order, or at least jet bikes.

I think the Dread section needs an Assault Gauss cannon just for conversion possibilities, or hurricane gauss for sickness.

Are IH going to use a "Phase Packs" instead of a Jump Packs?
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#38
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I believe IH were destened to either have Land Speeders or Necron hover destroyers. A combination of the two seem to be in order, or at least jet bikes.

That is what I had envisioned the Rhino turning into for the Iron Hands. Speeders are a post-Heresy discovery and I think that 'Destroyer bodies' would be a bit beyond the Iron Hands understanding of the tech. Plus we want to avoid wholesale translation of units from one army list to the other - right? If the Iron Hands cannot use the Necron tech of fully mechanized bodies in anything smaller than a suit of Terminator armor, then it stands to reason that the Iron Hands adaption of the Destroyer would be larger and more bulky as well. That is one reason why I chose the Rhino.

I think the Dread section needs an Assault Gauss cannon just for conversion possibilities, or hurricane gauss for sickness.

I'm personally against adding 'sickness' to the list. Adding something like this might make it unpalatable for opponents. i'd like to avoid that.

Are IH going to use a "Phase Packs" instead of a Jump Packs?

I think that would be very appropriate for them.

Edited by bannus, 13 December 2010 - 03:55 AM.

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#39
DerekLee688

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I'll drop hurricane, but still want Assault Gauss cannon.

Are jet bikes a worthy addition to IH? They aren't in C:SM, C:CSM, or C:Necron and they add in needed veriety to what we have to work with.

I'll second the idea of combining Rhino with destroyer perpulsion. The question is how do we arm them and what are their capasity? A razorback varent could fufill the speeder/storm roles. I imagine the Rhino would be in dedicated transport and the Razorback in the Fast Attack?

Fast Attack prospects:
Jet bike squad
Phase Assault Unit and Veteran Phase Assault Unit (includes psy-nulls and fancy blades)
or Phase Assault Unit with option to upgrade each marine to vet. or "champion/chosen" as in the CSM codex.

(I'm still wrestling with the Legion not Codex unit composition)

Edited by DerekLee688, 13 December 2010 - 03:21 PM.

A codex is NOT made of special characters.

#40
Bannus

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I'll drop hurricane, but still want Assault Gauss cannon.

A twin-linked gauss cannon is a lot more potent than an assault cannon already. I personally don't think it is necessary and would be hard for opponents to accept.

Are jet bikes a worthy addition to IH? They aren't in C:SM, C:CSM, or C:Necron and they add in needed veriety to what we have to work with.

I was toying with the idea, but I don't think that the Iron Hands' grasp of the Necron technology would be that good. It seems that the Iron Hands can replicate some of the Necron technology - but it is suggested that it is more bulky than the original.

I'll second the idea of combining Rhino with destroyer perpulsion. The question is how do we arm them and what are their capasity? A razorback varent could fufill the speeder/storm roles. I imagine the Rhino would be in dedicated transport and the Razorback in the Fast Attack?

Razorbacks are post-Heresy discoveries...just like the Landspeeders. So that option would be out. Chaos Rhinos have the option of adding an Havoc launcher and the Space Marines have the Razorback. To give the Iron Hands something along similar lines, I recommended allowing the pintle-mounted gauss blaster to be able to be upgraded to a pintle-mounted heavy weapon (gauss cannon or heavy gauss cannon). It makes for a simple (if not elegant) solution.

Fast Attack prospects:
Jet bike squad

I'm on the fence on this one. The jetbike seems a bit out of reach to me. I don't think the Iron Hands grasp of technology would allow them to build something that compact. It would have to be something closer to a Speeder in size. I think that fast skimmer Rhinos/Predators/Vindicators might fill this niche on their own. I am also thinking that too many mobile units in this army using Necron weapons might imbalance it against other armies. That is my opinion.

Phase Assault Unit and Veteran Phase Assault Unit (includes psy-nulls and fancy blades)
or Phase Assault Unit with option to upgrade each marine to vet. or "champion/chosen" as in the CSM codex.

I think that the psy-nulls would be far too rare to employ in any unit. I would like to see them function as an HQ/IC only unit. I like the idea of phasing fast attack infantry unit. Maybe use the rules for Warp Spyders for them?

(I'm still wrestling with the Legion not Codex unit composition)

It makes sense when you consider that this is following an alternate timeline - the Iron hands in this reality never accept the Codex Astartes,

Edited by bannus, 13 December 2010 - 04:14 PM.

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#41
Mordray

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Didn't the [DH] Iron Hands IA state that the Blanks were part of the assault squads? Perhaps as an upgrade? To the assault squad (either to the 'sergeant' or as a separate upgrade/replace style unit.) and/or perhaps as an upgrade to independent characters.

Mind you there is a difference between a Blank and a Pariah. A blank only creates a field of unease and untouchablility; while a pariah appears to be able to actually assault a psyker as though he were a predator.

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#42
Bannus

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"The exceptions to this are those staggeringly rare individuals who, through a quirk of genetics, cast no shadow into the Warp. Similar to the Sisters of Silence, the mere presence of these Blanks or Psychic Nulls causes pain and unease amongst psykers and disrupts the use of their unnatural powers. So valuable are these abilities to the Iron Hands that despite their lower rates of successful gene-seed implantation than those recruited from the Medusan clans, the Iron Hands have been known to raid worlds specifically to capture these anomalies."
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#43
Mithril hound

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I would merge Terminators and Devastators into one unit. A TDA gauss powerhouse....
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#44
Mordray

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The Iron Hands are coldly logical and methodical in their approach to combat, probing for areas of weakness and suppressing the enemy with ranged fire before their specialised Assault squads phase in to strike the final blow. This is where the Nulls are most commonly to be found. Their mere presence is an anathema to daemons and psykers, and they fill even normal humans with a sense of dread which makes their onslaughts so effective.

Most of the Nulls are used within the Assault squads rather then in specialized formations. It is likely that some leaders will be Nulls however those will be the exception not the rule.

I'd suggest an upgrade to a assault squads. This upgrade would allow for a single model within the squad to gain the null special rule. I'd suggest that this upgrade be limited to a 0-1 or 0-2 cap.

These nulls would not be full-on Pariah's, but instead would be the more common blanks who cause unease (perhaps can cause Daemons to test for breaks? - I think that was the term.) and negate (perhaps only reduce them in their chance of success...) psyker powers.

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*Due note that I'm a fan of the fluff, not the Table Top game.*


#45
DerekLee688

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Are jet bikes a worthy addition to IH? They aren't in C:SM, C:CSM, or C:Necron and they add in needed veriety to what we have to work with.

I was toying with the idea, but I don't think that the Iron Hands' grasp of the Necron technology would be that good. It seems that the Iron Hands can replicate some of the Necron technology - but it is suggested that it is more bulky than the original.

Fast Attack prospects:
Jet bike squad

I'm on the fence on this one. The jetbike seems a bit out of reach to me. I don't think the Iron Hands grasp of technology would allow them to build something that compact. It would have to be something closer to a Speeder in size. I think that fast skimmer Rhinos/Predators/Vindicators might fill this niche on their own. I am also thinking that too many mobile units in this army using Necron weapons might imbalance it against other armies. That is my opinion.


Marines had jet bikes and only lost them over the thousand of years after the Heresy, so they already have the technology. I believe Necron hover tech would help IH keep their jet bikes.

If we're going to convert some of the SM armory and ditch the rest, then we have to start making up stuff to replace what is being cast off. We don't have too many options, and I think jet bikes are legit for IH to have. Fast raiders FTW! So we either add regular bikes, because there really isn't a reason why they shouldn't have them, or we go with the superrior tech jet bikes that follows the trend that's already going on.
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#46
Bannus

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If we're going to convert some of the SM armory and ditch the rest, then we have to start making up stuff to replace what is being cast off.

Doesn't gauss weaponry, deep striking and teleporting count for anything?

Keep in mind that these advantages need to be offset by other disadvantages compared to Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines.
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#47
Chengar Qordath

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If we're going to convert some of the SM armory and ditch the rest, then we have to start making up stuff to replace what is being cast off.

Doesn't gauss weaponry, deep striking and teleporting count for anything?

Sure they count, but we don't want to end up with a ridiculously barren Force Organization Chart. Take out all the land speeders and bikes and you'll wind up with a IH Codex that only has a single Fast Attack choice (assault troops). Considering that every 5th edition codex has gone with at least four reasonably different options in the Elite, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support slots we will need to add stuff in to replace whatever gets taken out.

Likewise, the wargear list needs some degree of variety to give units a decent number of flexibility and customizability for its units; Necrons might not be big on options, but Marines are. Warscythes are very nice, but do we really want them to be the only close combat weapon in the entire list?

Keep in mind that these advantages need to be offset by other disadvantages compared to Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines.

No access to ATSKNF or Marks, some form of Phase Out, and losing out on many of the nicer options in the Marine armory should count for a lot in the disadvantages column.
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#48
Bannus

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The selections available to the Iron Hands in this adaptation will likely be somewhere between what the Necrons have and what Space Marines have. This works in our favor in two ways: 1) By making the army list limited, we eliminate the possibilities of IP issues and 2) It keeps the army balanced between a Space Marine and Necron army.

If we want to have the flexibility of the other Space Marine army lists, then our only legal alternative is to generate a few special units that characterize the Iron Hands that can be added to Chaos Space Marine army list (in similar manner to the way the Cult armies are handled).

Edited by bannus, 16 December 2010 - 01:00 PM.

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#49
DerekLee688

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I'm mainly conserned for the number of units per FOC slot. Gauss and teleporting/deepstriking are killing several times more units than they are creating.

I purpose bumping the tech priest from elite to HQ to replace Librarian because of the lack of Psykers, while making a servitor squad an option for Iron Father/Tech priest

I have to ask before dropping all TDA units, why is TDA so rare and does IH make a substitute? If IH needs a TEQ then how about 2+ Sv, Relentless, built in Phase pack, and feel no pain replaceing terminator honors, seeing that to wear terminator armor an IH would need to have replaced alot of his body with bionics.

HQ:
Chapter Master=Legion commander
+Honor Guard

Chapter Captain=Legion Lieutenant
+Command squad

Librarian=Tech Priest/Master of the Forge
+Servitor Squad
Chaplain=Iron Father

Elite:
Reg Dread
Ven Dread
Tech Priest
TDA
Feel No Pain Bionic/shock troop unit

Troop:
Tac. squad
Scout Gauss sniper/CCW+Gauss Pistol

Fast attack:
Skimmer rhino/w light+heavy weapon (possibly 1-3 squadron)
Jet bikes (current vote is me=yes, and bannus=maybe)
Assault squad
Phase dread (if included and not Elite)

Heavy:
Land Raider(s)
Predator(skimmer or not)
Heavy Dread/Ironclad
Devestators
TDA Devestators

All entries are possiblities and not final.
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#50
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It is because of IP issues that the Codex: Salamanders and Codex: Iron Hands projects had to change directions.

So from an IP perspective, we have to be sure minimize what we "expose" of GW rules/etc.

So if we want an expansive list with lots of units, then it will have to offer very few details and list only minimal changes to the units themselves.

For example; A pre-Heresy Iron Hands army uses all units as Codex Space Marines, but all bolters are exchanged for gauss flayers for +5 points per model.


Or we can have a minimal number of units and use the level of detail as suggested in the units in the previous posts.

What we CANNOT do is develop an expansive list with the same level of detail as the units posted previously.



That is our choices.
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