Captain Idaho Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Oh BT eh? Well then the answer is simple! 5-7 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws and one (2 if 7 in the unit) with Thunder Hammer, you will cut through anything with that lot! Re-roll to hit from the EC's vow and re-roll to wound, with furious charge, and you will scare even Blood Angels players! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 He's accepted as the "inevitable winner" in the tourney field, so folks play around him for second place prizes, or for painting and sportsmanship awards. Thats why you lose... god I wish Darth Vader was still alive (I mean apart from in my heart)... he would choke 7 kinds of hell out of you guys, find your lack of faith to be disturbing and tell you that you don't understand the power of the dark side (AKA Chaos)! I don't recall you mentioning your creepiness factor in the "What Age Are You?" thread, but i think I just figured it out You have no idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 4, 2010 Share Posted December 4, 2010 Oh BT eh? Well then the answer is simple! 5-7 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws and one (2 if 7 in the unit) with Thunder Hammer, you will cut through anything with that lot! Re-roll to hit from the EC's vow and re-roll to wound, with furious charge, and you will scare even Blood Angels players! sword brethren are just plain nasty.. infact having all BTs have preferred enemy should go along way to killing orks. make sure you get the charge as often as possible so the orks dont get the strength and attack bonuses.. orks with S3 dont kill a whole lot of marines unless they are in strong numbers.. the PK nob will usually bag two MEQs, your aim should always be to win combat and either run them down or cause lots of fearless wounds. if possible gang up on the orks 2 units vs 1 and wipe a whole unit in one go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 This thread has been an interesting read, and anyone who is familiar with my blog knows to what level I've been fighting this ork player...for years. Its not just that this guy - ripped dragon - has a great tournament list, his list has modified slightly over time, and his tactics improve. We were all hoping he would change over to BAs...LOML...but orks remain as his tournament favorite. Lots of the basics to crack this nut were stated above - pop the trukk and kill ghaz. The key to everything is doing it turn 1. Not an easy feat! If he is going first, that truck and stormboyz are deployed to the front, and they all come right at you. 19 inches for a red trukk (IIRR) and 18 for the stormboyz. (ps..he does now use the normal ork trukk...bought with winnings...). After that, it just gets crazy. The meganobz have been replaced with regular nobz spouting bioniks and a painboy, and number to fill the trukk with ghaz. Mixed claws, flamers, etc, so the models are all different. In the last tournament, I drew short straw and played him game 2. The mission was DOW playing for ultimately 2 objectives (locations randomly determined during the game). Not that it mattered....his army is so large at its maximum spacing so as to eclipse the board. His lootas btw were safely bubble wrapped in a grot halo.... I went grimly to work. He went first. Zoomed to midfield where I had a bait unit, dismounted from the truck, wrecked a rhino, and eliminated a tac squad. Then I poured firepower on ghaz and the nobz, using a sternguard and librarian ultimately to ultimately force ghaz and nobz to retreat when he failed a morale check, failed a reroll, and ran back about 8 inches, only to later rally and come back while I dealt with the stormboyz and chewed into a kan mob and boyz mob. I eventually chewed the ghaz and nob mob to 3 models before it was "rescued" by kans. He eventually won, with one objective and the other contested. For me it was one of my best games vs this horde, and by far the closest game for him to a loss that day, if not in months. In ard boyz tournament play, this player has lost only one game in 12...to a dual lash list 2 years ago...this guy is a serious contender. In the Philly 3rd round ard boyz, he actually was afraid of running into mechblower lists, so switched to BAs for that round, too bad, because he did well (considering no practise)...but did not crack the top 10 with BAs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 6 Dreads with Assault Cannons and heavy flamers, all AP4 so lots of dead boyz. And KK's are only armour..10? Should rip through them with the assault cannons. But the assault termies with LC's is a damn good idea too. 3 Crusaders, 3 squads of LC's leap out and you have 20 armour ignoring attacks per 5 man squad. Or Vindicators, with so many squads that big you literally cannot miss. And Lysander or Calgar, just for Graz' and his meganobz. Or borrow my 50 model strong templar army, they love orks, mmmm orks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted December 5, 2010 Share Posted December 5, 2010 KKs are armor 11, and less than 1/3rd the price of a dread for more attacks at S10. Wanna have some fun? Charge 3 kans with a dread...3 Kans will have 6 power claw attacks if you charge them...9 if they charge you...a regular rifleman dread does not stand a chance.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 You know what... this is an interesting problem. I'll see if I can't get my ork friend to use this exact list in the manner described and see how it works, run my lists against them, and see just how well my Iron Hands can handle it. To me, the answer seems very obvious, but I suppose that may not be the case when in front of the army, so I'll get some trigger time and see what I can come up with under pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 But the assault termies with LC's is a damn good idea too. 3 Crusaders, 3 squads of LC's leap out and you have 20 armour ignoring attacks per 5 man squad. Sorry to pick on you, but it's a point that needs re-enforcing. 1. The Ork list is for the most part on foot. 2. It's a horde assault based list 3. It has little shooting 4. It has little anti-tank How do you think you should deal with this ? *Hint* - It's not with 15 Assault Terminators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 How do you think you should deal with this ? With lots of burny goodness! On another note though; a unit of Terminators would be a fairly good idea anyway as a counter-assault unit, or to - at least attempt to - take out Ghaz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roesor Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 But the assault termies with LC's is a damn good idea too. 3 Crusaders, 3 squads of LC's leap out and you have 20 armour ignoring attacks per 5 man squad. Sorry to pick on you, but it's a point that needs re-enforcing. 1. The Ork list is for the most part on foot. 2. It's a horde assault based list 3. It has little shooting 4. It has little anti-tank How do you think you should deal with this ? *Hint* - It's not with 15 Assault Terminators. 3 Redeemers to assault cannon and flame the horde then pop out and assault with terminators with L.C's seems fine to me, just five and a crusader killed 18 for me, but then I re-roll hits. It ensures you get the charge on the orks as well, instead of the other way round. And you're not sorry >_> Or you wouldn't have *sniff* done *sniff* it. Or dreadnoughts!!! :( And I class s10 attacks to be anti- tank. You can't run forever. And if you stay and shoot at 9 KK's chances are you won't kill them all before your tanks get mauled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 That's great if you're killed 18, that just leaves the other 102 Boyz to kill :D Using assault to kill transports is often a poor tactic. If you do catch them, sure you may kill the 35pt Rhino, but then you'll be rapid-fired/flamed by the contents next turn. I'd also say there's a fairly good chance of shooting 9 Kans in a squadron if you're bringing a half way decent marine list. Dakka Preds, Rifleman Dreads, Multi-Melta/Missile Launchers in Tac Squads, MM/HF Speeders etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 people are still forgetting that tailoring is a terrible idea, simply suggesting army lists that only work against a few lists wont do it and its not fair on your opponents. tbh you could do worse than the chappy and assault squad, its a great unit and with twin flamers will cook alot of orksies.. things like vindies work against everyone and those pie plates will make short work of nobs (insta gib) meatman runs his tac squads in a way i find very insiprational, he puts them in a pod with flamer and combi-flamer.. if you wanted to use MoTF youd get 3 templates on the turn you arrive.. plus alot of bolter shots. one should also consider the value of bike squads, especially scout bikers, bolters that re-roll to hit cause alot of wounds and greande launchers are fab. if you get the charge his S3 orks need 6's to wound then comes t-fires, the best way to kill lootas from behind the grot curtain IMO. you should also take a serious look at typhoons, they can move 12" and still fire twin missles or HBs. things like honour guard and claw termies are also worth a look, but IMO with 5+ saves you dont need too many power weapons, youd do better with scouts and assault marines IMO.. of corse against all comers id recommend the HG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Ok, I ran a small pseudo-test at 1500 pts in an indy tourney. The lists were as follows: 1500 pts "Dreadraiders Mk4" HQ Lysander: 200 pts Troops Scout Squad: SRs - 75 pts Scout Squad: SRs - 75 pts Elites Assault Terminator Squad: 5 TH/SS - 200 pts Land Raider: Mmelta - 260 pts Venerable Dreadnought: TLLC - 195 pts Venerable Dreadnought: TLLC - 195 pts Fast Attack Land Speeder: 2x TML, Mmelta - 200 pts Heavy Support Thunderfire Cannon: 100 pts 500 pts sideboard Librarian: TDA w/ SS, Epistolary, NZ & VoD - 190 pts Khan: 160 pts His list was as follows: 1500 pts "Gkan Wall" HQ Ghazgkhull: 225 pts Mekboy: KFF - 85 pts Troops Nob Squad: 5 nobs, Pboy, 2 PKlaws, Cbodies - 230 pts Trukk: Aplates - 45 pts Boy Squad: 29 Boys, 3 Bshootas, Nob w/ PK & Bpole - 235 pts Boy Squad: 29 Boys, 3 Bshootas, Nob w/ PK & Bpole - 235 pts Heavy Support Killa Kanz: 3 Kans, 2 Gzookas & 1 Bshoota - 130 pts Killa Kanz: 3 Kans, 2 Gzookas & 1 Bshoota - 130 pts Elites Lootas: 6 lootas - 90 pts Lootas: 6 lootas - 90 pts Sideboard: 500 pts Kommandos: 11 boyz, Snikrot - 195 pts Some things had to be left out (namely 3 kans and 2 squads of boyz), but it was the same operational concept. He did one game against Dark Eldar Venom/Scourge spam, and was not able to engage in close combat efficiently because he had so few orks in by the end. He was able to kill a few vehicles at range thanks to the grotzookas and big shootas spread all throughout his army, and Ghazgkhull was able to knock down an haemonculi with the glass sword thing after 3 turns of close combat. Ended up as a tie in kill points. He played next against me. Spearhead, random objectives (turned out it was annihilation), and I deployed second. He did his standard kan wall formation, and I put myself in clear line of sight about 30" away from the formation. In this game, he killed off 1 terminator and 2 scouts. I killed Ghazghkull, his nobs, their transport, both squads of kans, one squad of lootas, and made one squad of lootas run off the board. I whittled down the boy squads with the thunderfire cannon, using the airbursting rounds to good effect. This match-up was severely one sided as his lootas could only fire on the land raider and one ven dread, and his big shootas/grotzookas could only tickle my LR/Dreads. He had average rolls with his cover saves, but I did very well getting immobilize results on the kans. Ghazghkull was able to get at me, but Lysander and his friends intercepted the attack and obliterated them all. While I did fail one terminator's invul and lose a wound on Lysander, it was more than compensated for by the death of all the nobz. His 3rd game was against some necrons, which he did well against. The glancefest wasn't enough to put the kans down, and Ghazghkull went to town on the warriors. The monolith ended up blowing itself up, which was the most amazing thing I'd heard ever. They phased out on turn 4. The list definitely works ok, but at this points level, I think it's far from the most horrible thing to hit the table. Next few games, we'll run 2k lists and see if it works better at that point level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 ...and its not fair on your opponents. But Brother, this is war! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltaire Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Hoard you say? Pah my treads'll crush him. IF you were a vanilla marine you'd do this. Master of the Forge - Conversion Beamer - Power weapon Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Landspeeder squadron - x3 x2 Multimelta x2 Heavy flamer - Typhoon Missile launcher Landspeeder squadron - x3 x2 Multimelta x2 Heavy flamer - Typhoon Missile launcher Landspeeder squadron - x3 x2 Multimelta x2 Heavy flamer - Typhoon Missile launcher Predator - Autocannon - Heavybolter sponsons Predator - Autocannon - Heavybolter sponsons Predator - Autocannon - Heavybolter sponsons Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Total - 2000pts Preds'll mow down the mob, razorbacks focus fire on the kans, and the landspeeders have their pick of targets to butcher. Vanilla win, orks lose. Use lots of tanks with massed firepower and your fine, just keep shooting and it wont matter if he reaches you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 ...and its not fair on your opponents. But Brother, this is war! i should have expanded earlier, but you cant tailor in a tourney or other equally competative environment, so why should you be able to do it in a more friendly environment.. its backwards in terms of the typical type of play at a LGS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Hoard you say? Pah my treads'll crush him. IF you were a vanilla marine you'd do this. Master of the Forge - Conversion Beamer - Power weapon Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Tactical - x5 - Combi-flamer - meltabomb Landspeeder squadron - x3 x2 Multimelta x2 Heavy flamer - Typhoon Missile launcher Landspeeder squadron - x3 x2 Multimelta x2 Heavy flamer - Typhoon Missile launcher Landspeeder squadron - x3 x2 Multimelta x2 Heavy flamer - Typhoon Missile launcher Predator - Autocannon - Heavybolter sponsons Predator - Autocannon - Heavybolter sponsons Predator - Autocannon - Heavybolter sponsons Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Razorback - Lascannon - Twinlinked Plasma Total - 2000pts Preds'll mow down the mob, razorbacks focus fire on the kans, and the landspeeders have their pick of targets to butcher. Vanilla win, orks lose. Use lots of tanks with massed firepower and your fine, just keep shooting and it wont matter if he reaches you. I think you have one Razorback too many in there. One extra via cut-n-paste? My main concern with this list is objective battles. 20 Marines in small packages to hold objectives? 8 shots per Predator is nice, but remember cover saves, especially once the battle lines narrow. All of your vehicles except the Speeders must remain stationary to be an actual threat, which puts you at EXTREME risk of a Waaaagh assault. One well-placed Waaagh assault will put the hurt on many of your tanks that didn't move in order to put out full firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 ...and its not fair on your opponents. But Brother, this is war! i should have expanded earlier, but you cant tailor in a tourney or other equally competative environment, so why should you be able to do it in a more friendly environment.. its backwards in terms of the typical type of play at a LGS. It's alright ol' son, I knew what you meant and I agree and disagree; no you can't tailor for a competitive environment - well you can, but don't go cryin' to momma' when you lose - but in terms of "friendly" one-off games I can't see why it isn't viable, especially in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 The Thunderfire's a gun that can work tremendously well in this match-up... so I'm suprised no one has mentioned that yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 i did :tu: then comes t-fires, the best way to kill lootas from behind the grot curtain IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPEDDRAGON Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 As the player in question I have been following this thread for a while. Now for all of you that have no idea who I am or how this works (non flgs guys) ill give you a background on this list and myself. I started playing orks at the end of 3rd with a handful of guys. I slowly expanded on what I liked and what I saw working. This army has been honed over many years of playing and mostly bought with tourney winnings. In 5th edition with the addition of running my orks really began to shine. My current record and all my flgs guys can tell you how much I win. On our local forums I have kept track of my record for 5th. I currently sit at 78 wins 3 losses and 5 draws. The losses were to my first time playing vs Deathwing termi list...45 termis we both had 2 figures on the board at the end of the game, a seer council list and after the game I realized he cheated by casting farseer spells like doom and fortune while coming on the board from reserve and I still almost bear him, and my first game vs twin lash where it took 28 pens on a defiler to kill it and he rolled 3 or more pens from grenades on my kans 4 times. Oh well close losses but never been blownout. Now as the thread stated to start this list is based on a three prong system. First prong: Turn 2 or 1 assault with nobz and stormboyz Second prong: Turn 3 assault with 30 man boyz squads Third prong: Turn 4+ kan mop up The trukk is always hidden so you have a very hard time finding it. Stormboyz tend to flank and hide behind cover. If i go first your plan to stop my trukk fails. You now have very hard targets to kill and need to make a choice and probably split fire. Vindis are good but remember they are random with an average of scattering of 2 inches. Killing ghaz on turn 1 is the key for the most part. But now you have a 20 man mob suiciding into you on turn 2. I will surgically take out the biggest threats with them. Now you focus on the stormboyz and finishing ghaz but my 30 man squads are on you on my next turn. By now most of your units have been multicharged everywhere and you have to charge in and try to kill me. Oh well I am fearless from ghaz still. Kans then come in and mop up whatever you have left. Templates fail vs me cuz I am always spread. Flamer my squads and I will remove models from where your next flamer will be. Shoot at my boyz through my kans and i take half damage cuz of cover. Shoot at my kans...it like killing 9 razorbacks plus you cant stop them from advancing. Focus on my nobz and my stormboyz will get you and vice versa. Now to analyze my weaknesses: Flamers after combat when I am clumped Heavy Mech Assault squads Termi and Raider list: You have low model count and still need to fit in troops. I have kans and ghaz that will tear open your tanks. My kans are in front of my boyz so you have to kill them to charge my boyz. My kans give me cover from your shots. Just so many things wrong with that list. Speeder lists: You run flamers I easily charge you. You run rockets you can kill kans but fail at killing horde. You squadron and I kill you easier and can kill you via glancing hits with boyz. Razor Spam: You just have so many kill points in your army now while I have very few. The 5 man squads are very easy for me to kill even if you charge me. Dread Lists: Ghaz, my nobz, and Kans will have so much fun ripping you a new one. You have so few shots and fewer models and easy kill points. A lot of math hammer and thought have been put into both my list and ways to beat my list. Balanced mech lists have done the best however they have very easy kill points. The termi list that beat me has not won again and I tabled him in by turn 4 the last time I played him via proper multi charges. If you want first hand facts ming and shinyrhino are the best to ask about what happens almost every game. They have gotten better and games have gotten closer in recent times. However, I still win. The big problem for most of these people is that they have to face me in our monthly tourney environment where list tailoring for me would be a bad choice. Yes take some stuff in anticipation to play me but I am only 1/3 of your games and points. I know shiny does not think there is any skill in playing my list but there is much more then meets the eye. Properly guessing distances both my threat ranges and all opponent charge ranges is the big one. After that properly spacing, moving, and evaluating targets while math hammering out what my units can and cant handle in combat (mainly how many units should I multi charge). e The rest of you think what you want to think. You can post all the ideas and all the times you have beaten that list played by other but remember you have not beaten me. The list is not what is playing. They player is what is playing against you. Still think you can win...come on up and play at one of our monthly tourneys. We tend to have 14-24 players every month in our tourney. Go visit crossroadgames.com and check us out or follow me at rippeddragon.blogspot.com where you will find video batreps and see me in action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 congrats on your wins thus far, its good to see someone concentrate on one army and make them work so well like i said before no-one should tailor to face any list its not fair/right, nor is any one list unbeatable. as for myself i never fear to take on any army (sadly your about 3150 miles too far away).. every loss is an experience to learn from.. eventually my win record will be one to beat (its pretty good as is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPEDDRAGON Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 Yah by no means is my list unbeatable. I tend to do well whatever army I pick up not just orks. I just have played and practiced so much and I know the marine codexes in and out. I have also played against people enough at the flgs that I know how each of them plays and how well or poor they tend to roll on dice. Its not like I am playing against bad players either. We have a fairly large field and I have played and met many of the top players in the country. I know someday I will lose at one of the local tourney games and it will be a huge thing. Games have gotten closer and closer over the past three years and heck I had one of the closet games in a while last tourney vs Ming. List tailoring for me is a bad idea cuz if i catch wind I will just turn around 180 and play a BA mech list and have 8-12 tanks. Plus in tourneys I you have to worry about all rounds not just the game against me. Thunderfire cannons are like devs to me. My stormboyz will easily charge and kill it turn 2 and probably multi charge other things a long with it. Good thread and good ideas keep it going tho ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 how many stormboyz do you use? i figure they would be the first to die tbh. if i were facing this list with my scout army id probably refuse one whole flank, use a dedicated long range anti armour unit to keep shooting at kans all game, whittle down thier numbers, cover saves be damned. kill the fast stuff first and then its a case of first come first served with the mobs, refusing a flank means they wont come all together unless you hang back with one flank.. either way its probably an extra turn of shooting. killing big units of orks is tough, but not imposible... i find my scout bikers brilliant at taking on ork mobs, telion take the nob down and the bikers charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPEDDRAGON Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 I use 1 full 20 man squad of stormboyz. I try to find them cover and go down the side of the board. I have also left them behind kans or in cover and leave them as a counter charge unit because of their massive range. Their threat range is huge and I dont need to get them close to charge. They have a 40.5 inch on average threat radius by turn 2 so nothing is safe from them (12+2d6 turn 1 and 18+d6 turn 2). Also when I deploy the only things not getting cover will be my kans. Leaving orks in the open is a bad idea. This list and my strategy is like the Zulu horns of the bull. Fast suicide units in the flank and then the hard hitting head coming in after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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