29 replies to this topic

[dentonius]

Hi all,


I am gonna rebuild my old BA army but I have some doubts about the DC. Are those guys worth to spent alot of points ? They have rage, so they are uncontrollable and they have no rending anymore. So you need some powerfists for high toughness guys. I still like the idea behind those guys but are we not able to have the same succes with a regular assault squad with a priest for less points.

[Erasmus of Baal]

Well, first off, welcome back!

They are nowhere near as pointsworthy as in the PDF, and I don't know about before that. If you want them to be effective, then they'll get very expensive very quickly. Jump Packs are usually considered overpriced on them (but don't let that inhibit you, brother), and they are typically given a vehicle as that makes them controllable (usu. either a Land Raider or a Stormraven (for which, in case you don't know, a model is to be coming out in February)). What has become very popular is to give them Bolters and enjoy being Relentless, as they can move, shoot their bolters, and fire in one turn.

[Ruthven]

I absolutely think they are worth it! I run 9 and a Chaplain in a Rhino. I give two of them power weapons and one a powerfist. I want them to look imposing and scary for the opponent. I have debated putting them in a Land Raider, but I think that a Landraider might prohibit my opponent from firing at them, which is what I want! I want my opponent to be so preoccupied with them that he ignores the rest of my army. First turn their Rhino charges out 18" and pops smoke. If you don't get first turn, make sure you position them the best you can to avoid taking fire and at worst allow them to get a cover save. I also run a couple assault squads and some Assault Terminators to really give my opponent no good options to shoot at. Don't play timidly with your forces!

[Gv0zD]

As Erasmus of Baal said, the implementation of DC has changed. The main setback IMHO is that DC are 'not free', have no rending, are uncontrollable. You may check this thread I started some time ago, regarding the same question.
I personally stick to the tactics Erasmus of Ball has mentioned - give them Bolters and let them shoot&run. Some players still find DC a menacing unit, so you may use them as a distraction. IMHO that's the most appropriate way to run them.

Edited by Gv0zD, 13 December 2010 - 06:30 AM.

[Redo]

The two comments above provide some sound advice. I certainly believe that DC with Jump Pack are not worth 35 points a piece. Just two pricey for an uncontronable unit and I think that there are more potent and effeicient options in the codex.

DC without JPs have their uses but I for one have moved away from them...first time since 2nd Edition that I have palyed games without my trusty DC.

[vahouth]

The two comments above provide some sound advice. I certainly believe that DC with Jump Pack are not worth 35 points a piece. Just two pricey for an uncontronable unit and I think that there are more potent and effeicient options in the codex.

DC without JPs have their uses but I for one have moved away from them...first time since 2nd Edition that I have palyed games without my trusty DC.

If the DC would have to march half the table to reach the enemy, I would agree with you.

Try instead to DS them in the middle of the enemy line with a chaplain or Lemartes and judge for yourself if 35pts a piece is a bargain or not.
All you need is Dante or Locator beacon.
*This way you won't need to control them, they can rapid fire or shoot templates or melta anything in range.
*They will be fairly safe from enemy ordnance since he wouldn't want to shoot his own guys.
*The terrified opponent leaves the rest of your army alone.
*Next turn most of them charge!

[Tabgoi]

Pre PDF were the glory days of the DC really. A unit that effectively was worth no points in terms of scoring that everyone was terrified of. Nothing like getting a lucky series of rolls and watching the fear in your opponents eyes as you put down a 24 man DC with three power weapons and a power fist with a pair of chaplains all with jump packs. Though normally you ended up with about 12 to 14. Your oppenent focused all their fire on your DC and the rest of your army devistated them, or they focused on your army and had no hope against a full DC crashing into their lines.
Unfortunately since I am redoing my army I have not had the chance to get into a good battle yet as everyone I know is redoing theirs as well. They are no where near as imposing as they used to be in terms of combat effectiveness. However, anyone who played against a BA player back before the PDF codex will still likely focus an undue amount of attention due to nightmares from previous games. Though I will say this, the pleasure you get as your chaplains high fived over the dead corpse of a Farseer was great. But double chaplains was extremely OP back then, you only really ran them when someone upset you with smack talking. I was one of those nuts everyone made fun of for running devistator squads back then. Had a huge laugh when instead of wasting a wave serpent they charged it in close combat and got wrecked by the howling banshees inside. Still won the match, but despite all the close combats there, the ones I remembered was the one where I was thuroughly trounced.
Personally I still plan on running a 9 man DC with a chaplain, power weapon, and a thunder hammer in a rhino, bolt pistols and chainswords all around. Call it nastalgia, but I still really like the unit. If it does nothing other then draw fire it has succeded. If it forces someone to dedicate a unit to kiting it around, cool. If I can get the unit into close combat to kill things, win all around.

[Drachnon]

Personally I've been thinking about running death company in a drop pod. 9 DC + chaplain/reclusiarch with powerfist, 1 or 2 power weapons, thunder hammer and equipped mostly with bolters except for the power weapons. Haven't had time to buy the models though so I'm hoping for someone else to run something similar and post the results.

[shatter]

If anyone's interested, I sand-boxed this 6 times: (350) 10 JP DC with bolters ate (380) 2 10 JP RAS five of six times. Each side got the charge 3 times.

[Redo]

The two comments above provide some sound advice. I certainly believe that DC with Jump Pack are not worth 35 points a piece. Just two pricey for an uncontronable unit and I think that there are more potent and effeicient options in the codex.

DC without JPs have their uses but I for one have moved away from them...first time since 2nd Edition that I have palyed games without my trusty DC.

If the DC would have to march half the table to reach the enemy, I would agree with you.

Try instead to DS them in the middle of the enemy line with a chaplain or Lemartes and judge for yourself if 35pts a piece is a bargain or not.
All you need is Dante or Locator beacon.
*This way you won't need to control them, they can rapid fire or shoot templates or melta anything in range.
*They will be fairly safe from enemy ordnance since he wouldn't want to shoot his own guys.
*The terrified opponent leaves the rest of your army alone.
*Next turn most of them charge!

Yeah i seen and even tried this tactic...still do not think that it justifies 35 points. Sure it will work treats against opponents such as Tau but against many armies the problems is that they have good to great close combat units and will make sure that you do not get the charge. They are also aware that this is just a ploy to distract them from the real threat; the rest of your army and dedicate one unit to tie them up and aviod the DC charge mayhem.

Actually I watched a firend of mine try this against a guard army recently. Most of the DC were splattered from a battle cannon and so were some of the guardsmen when the shot mildly scattered but as the guard player said; who cares they are only guardsmen and they would have died anyway. Sure the rest of the BA army did not have the face the battel cannon but that is what the Veterans were there for as well as the Earthshaker.

Totally agree with you about the foot slogging DC but that is why they should be placed in a Rhino or a drop pod which is cheaper than JPs and the drop pod is a safer delivery option. Obviously the tactic is distraction but I would counter that once again folks have wisened up to this and will charge the DC first.

[The Red Worm]

I have been playing a unit of 10 with jump packs and 1 fist in 2,000 point lists and they have eaten everything thrown their way. I'll be adding some power weapons and maybe a hammer just to get some extra punch for the high toughness targets.

I'm not saying they "earn their points back" or are "cost effective", but they really do the job of frightening most opponents. I haven't faced an opponent who knows enough counters to them and I don't play in tournaments so your mileage *will* vary. However, they are easy to play and really allow the rest of my army to get where they need to be with minimal casualties.

I played an Apocalypse game with every model I have as Death Company, but using the weapons the model has. I phased out a Necron army in two turns using 60% of the army. It really is a crazy army to play at that level.

[Irabrai]

I quite regularly run a set of 5 death company + chaplain/reclusiarch.

Most of the time i run them in a rhino, but have had them in a drop pod before. The drop pod idea failed - the plan was to drop behind a Smurf vindicator, chaplain's infernus destroys it then they run amok...only i missed and got shelled and the Chaplain was the only survivor.

First time i ran them they chewed up Marneus + combat squad with ease tho marneus did then run off...and then proceeded to cause alot of mayhem...The most recent time however they chewed up a whole chaos space marine squad with aid of the rerolls...to which my opponent said they were under costed - tho i dare say i'd have said that if the shoe was on the other foot.

As for the load out, as i say i've only got 5, and one has a power weapon. the rest have ccw/bolt pistols. When i've finished dabbling with Chaos myself i'll be returning to my BA and expanding the Death Company squad i've got and get a couple with power fists and boltguns - the fact they wouldnt get an extra attack if they have bolt pistols makes it a better idea to give them bolter, and it also means they can crack open some tanks with things other than krak grenades. Theres also the fact they'd be charging with S10 attacks (if i'm right - normal strength of 4, +1 for furious charge, then doubled for Power fist? - If not it'd be S9...i dont know :S)

[shatter]

9

[Demoulius]

tbh ive stopped using the DC the second they werent mandatory anymore. tbh with SP's mixxed in your army you can get the same results for cheaper units. and you get more army for it

a assault squad only loses 1 attack per model, but even with added SP still costs a great deal less points. they are scoring, you can control them and can be kitted out for various scenario's (whereas DC can only be kitted for close combat, the assault squad can be given specialist weapons to help with tactics...i personaly found the meltagun a welcome addition )

tbh IF id field one id keep the squad as small as possible. its "only" 5 guys after all and they lost rending. the huge amount of attacks should prove to be a thorn in peoples side im sure

[TheHarrower]

A lot of people say that they aren't worth the points and this is a pretty common debate. I've been playing since the onset of 3rd Edition and I actually like the new DC better than the old ones. With WS5 now and the option to take upgrades, I don't miss Rending so much. Add to that rerolling hits and wounds on the charge with a Chaplain makes them insanely bad ass. I typically run a 5 man DC with powerfist lead by a Reclusiarch in a Razorback with twin-linked heavy flamer. They have never let me down. I also like taking them because you can get a DC dread. My new favorite is the DC Dread with blood talons. The amount of damage you can inflict in an assault is just stupid. To me, the DC are a must have unit except in lesser than 1,000 point games.

[Kanis]

Personally, it comes down to fluff vs. people that play competitively. Every game I've used my Death Company they deal out some pain, or hold against ridiculous odds. They aren't controllable out of their transport, but that fits the fluff, they are insane, after all. And honestly, rending is nice, but not that game changing around here, where everything is a gaunt, or an ork and they won't miss a few buddies.
I love my Rage-crazed marines, and I use them each game, for the fun, the fluff, and to enjoy my opponents dealing with them. In the end, it's player preference and style. To each their own. ^ ^

[shan vener]

i can't say this enough. death company are always worth it! i run them with 8 power swords and 2 hand flamers. believe me iv'e taken out daemon princes, 30 boys, crisis suits, and the like and they never fail. i've had them shot at by 2 twin linked auto cannons, 10 chaos marines, and 10 thousand sons, and only 1 died.

[Red Fury]

I think a mounted DC squad is worth its points. I like a 5 man with a chappy (elite slot type) in a razor with TLHflamers, or a full 10 man in a rhino. 2 PWs and a hammer are enough bits to make them effective against most anything. I also really like the idea of a black Storm Raven, with the assault ramps you can point and shoot your dc and dread effectively. Never tried it though, just too many points.

The DC fits well with Mech BA. You can fling them forward or hold them back as counter assault. But when you start making a DOA list it is really hard to find a place for them. Plus we have so many other options you just can't field them all at the same time. I occasionally want to use a squad of Sang Guard or a tooled out VV, that leaves no points for a DC, and vice versa.

[spanko101]

Everyone has made some very insightful comments regarding both point cost and strategy. However, I use my DC a little differently. I run 5 DC with JP, as well as Lemartes. Now, the Rage rule is only in effect if you DC can see an enemy unit; hiding then behind buildings/rocks etc where they’re blind is great – YOU DONT HAVE TO MOVE TOWARDS AN ENEMY UNIT. It’s like keeping a big black dog on a chain in the back shed, then opening the shed door and releasing the ‘puppy’ when the target is in range. This REALLY messes with opponents heads (most are Chaos players). I find most opponents keeping their units away, or having to dedicate vehicles to draw them out – which ties up one of their units.
I took out 2 demon ‘princesses’ in my last game with 5 DC and Lemartes....Without a casualty! Sure my DC then got torn apart from every direction, but they did their job – scared my opponent :cussless, and kill at least 1 unit.
I’ll always run DC with JP. Their fast and effective even without special CC weapons (with FC and LB they can penetrate the ass-end of a Rhino!). My RAS and VV do all the ‘Tactical stuff’, but when it comes to sheer terror – nothing beats DC.

My 2 Cents

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

In my eyes, Death Company are worth their points easilly! I love playing with them in friendly games and love how they often truly own the board, and sometimes truly get owned by the enemy. But in my eyes, they own more than they get owned.

There is only one major issue in playing them competitively that goes beyond their unpredictable and unreliable nature: The fact that how Rage gets ruled on a multi-model unit is a matter of much debate. This is mostly why I would not add them in a tournament list, which makes me a really sad panda

Edited by Brother-Captain Devlonir, 20 December 2010 - 07:12 AM.

[JamesI]

In my eyes, Death Company are worth their points easilly! I love playing with them in friendly games and love how they often truly own the board, and sometimes truly get owned by the enemy. But in my eyes, they own more than they get owned.

There is only one major issue in playing them competitively that goes beyond their unpredictable and unreliable nature: The fact that how Rage gets ruled on a multi-model unit is a matter of much debate. This is mostly why I would not add them in a tournament list, which makes me a really sad panda

Tournaments shouldn't be an issue for Rage. Just contact the TO before hand and findout how it will be ruled. If the TO's ruling works for you, run your DC proudly. If not, well you have enough notice to swap out the DC for something else.

[Ultramarcos]

I've been using for while already , 7 DC (2 PW + 1 PF) in a Rhino with a Chaplain...it my "mini"deathstar squad...I do exactly what was said before...1st turn 18" pop smoke...after that throw them in almost anyone and they will regret...oh, and those who have no special weapon, I give them Bolters...Walk and shoot rapid fire....really good.
I tried for some time the Droppod setup but I think Rhino is still more reliable.
I personally think that jump packs on them are expensive, but I run a Full mech list anyways so they wouldn't have place for JP.

[Brother Biskit]

A while ago I was playing an apocalypse game against Orks, my opponent used some psychic power to move a 100+ model green tide into the middle of my lines thinking they would trash anything that got close. Instead in went my 7 DC with lemmy and two talon dreads. The Orks went from green tide to green smear in a turn flat between the heavy flamers, and the assault. DC on their own killed 27 Orks on the charge, and the only power weapon was lemmys crozius. Not even the warboss got an attack back. Horrific.

If you can get the charge off with a chaplain then even with jump packs they are probably one of the most under costed units in the game.

[BigBaals]

I can think of 4-5 other units that I would rather use. If you're going for an Astorath led Death Company army then they are right for you. I'd rather spend the points on... Sanguinary Guard, Vanguard Vets, Sanguinary Priest(s), Assault Squad, Attack Bikes, Furioso Dreadnought, Chaplain(s), RAS/Razor. I swore by them in the AdobeDex, not so impressed with them anymore. WS5 is nice though. I used them in 5 games (Mech List) and put them on the shelf. There are too many better units to field in my DoA list, and my play style is more MSU so the Deathstar Land Raider/Death Company doesn't work for me either. That's just my experience! They are a BEAUTIFUL kit though. Perfect for blinging your worthwhile squads

The only time I was mildly impressed with my DC was a 4,000 points per person (80,000 total!) APOC game where they killed about 10 terminators. Meh, it was still there best performance.

[Nanodave]

I've been thinking of running an 8 man DC in a rhino with a chaplain and a librarian with SOS and MOH. I can only imagine that would be frustrating for my opponent. They'd get at least 4 attacks on the assault, 3 in cc if I equip them with bolters. 1 more on each if I don't use bolters, which I probably wouldn't do.