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Blazing Sons + IG2011


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#1
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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Blazing Sons.

Personality:
Pre - Heresy Luna Wolves crossed with Black Templars with a smattering of Iron Hands rage and uncompromising nature.


Aesthetics are of Saxon/Anglo Saxon/Early Northern European influence.

Detailing.

-Combat Doctrine:


The Blazing Sons fight in a form inherited from their homeworlds protracted intercine wars and especially the traumatic conflict with the forces of Nurgle. The Blazing Sons favour Flamers out of both a spiritual connection with flame and fire for both purity and it's effectiveness against the plague of unbelief. General battle terms are inherited from the people of Firaxis directly. The Sons prefer close range firefights before closing to finish the enemy with their blades.

Heavily dislike static warfare and long-range slugging matches.


-Organization:

The Blazing Sons continuous and perhaps never ending crusade in the northern expanse stretches their resources and supply lines to breaking point. As such any and all recruits that survive the induction process are sent directly to their battle companies, being drawn up into power-armoured assault squads, to gain their first blood against the enemies of Mankind. Only when they have proved themselves in the fires of war are they elevated to full brotherhood. Each company is a full-fledged battle-company, no reserve companies exist. Each company holds more marines than are the norm, though these are made up of 'young bloods' who have not yet proved themselves in a major campaign the fact remains that they contain a number more power-armoured units than most chapters.

(Note, more power armoured units does not necissarily mean more men overall, so don't get the wrong idea and start harping on about chapter size ;) )


***** Everything below may be cut. *****


-The Order of the Sun:

The Order of the Sun is the planetary cult that has, as per the Blazing Sons instructions remained the populations major religion. Grown from the ground up during a particularly vicious cycle of wars that culminated in the corrupt nurgle followers from the far reaches of the continent returning and causing havoc until the coming of the Sons. The Order was built out of the final scraps of the Imperial Cult, a single shred of a hard-woven banner from the twilight of the Heresy. "The Emperor is as the Sun in the sky..."

The Order is in the same vein as the Knights Templar or Knights Hospitaller, they were a religious order of warriors, though somewhat more like the Warrior Priests of Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy in feel and aesthetics.


************************

In my mind I imagine the Blazing Sons standing on a battlefield in their scuffed, dirty, dented and scarred (never clean) bronze power armour, notched swords and axes, round shields either in hand or slung on their backs with Bolters in hand. They are rough, course, unrefined Astartes in the same way he Pre-heresy Luna Wolves were rough and ready. These are the kind of men who don't tell you they are coming, they don't insult, warn or intimidate you, they just flat out hit you.

They have the same passion for a cause and a similar, determined mentality to the Black Templars but with less of the ostentatious pomp. They know what they want and rarely give up once they have set their sights on something. They don't travel in massive crusade fleets, they don't announce their intent to the universe and so vocally object to their enemies existence. The only reason anyone else knows about the Sons self-set Crusade is because of other organizations and chapters being caught in either it's path or in it's wake.


-----------------------------------------------------


Ok, here lies newer notes. Above lies the old and slightly cut down outline I had many moons ago.

Now for a tighter outline.


Origins

  • Chapter is founded (?th/?rd founding) using Ferrus Manus gene seed, named by Tarot.
  • Given mandate to secure area/subsector/region (whatever) against recent insurgent activity.
  • Iron Hands training cadre assigned, chapter embarks.
  • Sons feel severely disconnected from those they are meant to protect, Iron Hands seek to exploit this.
  • Rediscover (how?) Firaxis
Origins pt2

  • Firaxis in throes of chaos-fueled civil war.
  • Iron Hands cadre instructs Firaxis be cleansed, clearly they are weak for allowing chaos to spread.
  • Blazing Sons reject Iron Hands instructions, remove as mentors.
  • (Psychology behind rejection - Sons see Firaxians choice to fight chaos as fervently as they evidently are. Viable?)
  • Sons instead commit entire chapter (not full strength, six/four/three companies?) to Firaxis and liberate loyal people.
  • Discover Order of the Sun, integrate with chapter.
  • Cadre dumped at nearest human world, resulting in animosity between parent and successor. Chapter begins life as independent entity.


-------------------------


Battle Cry

Less of a battle-cry than a simple oath of the moment, relating back to the practices of the legions during the Great Crusade. "Choose wisely brothers..." Is intoned "... Lest death choose you." To follow.

----------------


Homeworld

  • Once a pre-dark age world, rediscovered during the Great Crusade, stripped of all old tech by the mechanicus and in the process of rebuilding and recolonization when the Heresy broke the Imperium in two.
  • Firaxis had no resources, no facilities and as such no tactical or strategic importance in the civil war, quickly abandoned.
  • World is crisscrossed by the disparate remains of old-tech, fallen sky-bridges, buildings, highways and factories.
  • In between the fallen architecture live the tribes of Firaxis, ten thousand years later. Large settlements exist amongst the ruins of the former colonies.
  • Order of the Sun founded by several warriors recieving visions, discover heresy-era chapel set up by the Lectitio Divinatus, new religion is born.
  • Chaos warriors come to Firaxis looking for <something>. Tribes fallen out of favour with the larger tribal community flock to these invaders looking to regain power, status and a measure of revenge.
  • Order of the Sun fights against invaders turncoat tribes.
  • Blazing Sons and co. arrive in orbit.
Still to come in the outline:

Combat Doctrine, Organization, Beliefs, Gene-seed.

Edited by Grey Hunter Ydalir, 02 February 2011 - 04:49 AM.

The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#2
Donkey Kong

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And now, neophytes, we learn of the true tenacity of the Adeptus Astartes ;) .

though these are made up of 'young bloods' who have not yet proved themselves in a major campaign the fact remains that they contain a number more power-armoured units than most chapters.


Blood Claw style?

Origins

Chapter is founded (?th/?rd founding) using Ferrus Manus gene seed, named by Tarot.


I think it would be easier to have them named when they discover the Order of the Sun instead of relying on coincidence.

Given mandate to secure area/subsector/region (whatever) against recent insurgent activity.

]

Doesn't quite fit with the Astartes mentality of duty first if they're assigned to a region and then say to hell with it to go on crusade.

Blazing Sons reject Iron Hands instructions, remove as mentors.


The whole sequence is kind of over the top. Astartes are taught to follow orders, their commanders tell them how to act, they not only refuse, they kick them out of the chapter, and then that creates animosity between the Sons and Iron Hands. I think political infighting in the chapter would lead to a more believable explanation, maybe with even some of the mentors siding with the rest of the Sons.

#3
Dosjetka

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  • Blazing Sons reject Iron Hands instructions, remove as mentors.
  • Cadre dumped at nearest human world, resulting in animosity between parent and successor. Chapter begins life as independent entity.

For me, this is the problematic part. I don't think that they would even think of saving the humans if there has been a Nurgle infestation, even if it's small. To quote from the DIY Guide:

The Imperium is an untrustworthy place, and prefers to kill first and maybe ask questions later.

I really don't think that the training cadre, especially Iron Hands, would let such a thing happen. And also, such infestations surely have some kind of Inquisition involvement and I doubt they would let the Chapter have their recruits from a ex-infested home world either

That said, I'm looking forward to seeing what else you have in store and I do like the fluff behind the Order of the Sun.

Ludovic

*Oh, and I apologise for any harshness, I just don't really agree with the points I mentioned above ;)

Edited by Battle-Brother Ludovic, 29 January 2011 - 03:51 PM.

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#4
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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Ruddy hell that was quick! B)

And now, neophytes, we learn of the true tenacity of the Adeptus Astartes ;) .


:blink:

Blood Claw style?


Yup, not quite as... bloodthirsty or wild but yeah, basically.

I think it would be easier to have them named when they discover the Order of the Sun instead of relying on coincidence.


The Emperors Tarot isn't coincidence! It's the Emperor's foresight guiding the chapter! ;)

Waiting till they discover the Order of the Sun is a bit long to go around without a name isn't it? For an organization that relies so much on a group identity it seems a little counter-intuitive.

Doesn't quite fit with the Astartes mentality of duty first if they're assigned to a region and then say to hell with it to go on crusade.


Fair cop. In my defence I was thinking of it to be more their initial gig until they find their feet. The chapter stabilizes the region and then has a secure jumping off point to do whatever else they want to do.

The whole sequence is kind of over the top. Astartes are taught to follow orders, their commanders tell them how to act, they not only refuse, they kick them out of the chapter, and then that creates animosity between the Sons and Iron Hands. I think political infighting in the chapter would lead to a more believable explanation, maybe with even some of the mentors siding with the rest of the Sons.


So are all soldiers, to a lesser or greater degree. It lies to those with a strong enough will or individual sense of what they think is right to stand up for what they believe. Most soldiers don't disobey orders, true. Those that do disobey the orders they don't believe in are few and far between, but they are usually for good reason and go against that man's conscience.

It usually takes one leader to stand up and state his case for others who may have felt the same way to rally behind him.

Also the cadre hasn't been with them that long, not long enough to properly indoctrinate them. Also they are the training cadre, not a replacement for the chapters native command structure. Though some are, I don't think it works very well and wasn't how I was presenting it, at least, not to myself. :P

I'm not sure the Cadre would side with any of the sons. They are Iron Hands. Weakness is their antithesis and just about all of them are psychotic mass murderers. However, I could be rather wrong, but that's how I personally have been characterizing them.

For me, this is the problematic part. I don't think that they would even think of saving the humans if there has been a Nurgle infestation, even if it's small.


Thing is there are plenty of worlds that have been attacked by chaos and are saved by actions of the Astartes and Imperial Guard. There are sanctifying measures that can be taken once the initial taint is eradicated.

I'm not talking about an infestation that rots half the planet. The population is low-ish and the various tribes are fairly self-contained. This is one tribe that has fallen from grace (their own fault in the original draft) and turned to whatever they can find to regain status or gain revenge.

The Sons see that the rest of the people have (under the leadership of the Order of the Sun) taken arms against a truly horrific (maybe a handful of true daemons and a lot of the walking dead) enemy and are fighting valiantly, just without the means to truly stem the tide, since the dead always outweigh the living.

I really don't think that the training cadre, especially Iron Hands, would let such a thing happen. And also, such infestations surely have some kind of Inquisition involvement and I doubt they would let the Chapter have their recruits from a ex-infested home world either


It's a relatively fair cop, and I'm not quite sure how else to give an explanation you'd be satisfied with other than chaos has attacked other Imperial worlds and Space Marine homeworlds and even called down daemons and hellfire, and yet those worlds are still in Imperial hands and used for manpower and resources.

*Oh, and I apologise for any harshness, I just don't really agree with the points I mentioned above


No worries, I love it. ;)

The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#5
Dosjetka

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Ruddy hell that was quick!

Well, I do enjoy your Chapters, though they never get finished, and so I get some C&C done right away :P

Blood Claw style?


Yup, not quite as... bloodthirsty or wild but yeah, basically.

What a surprise ;)

The Sons see that the rest of the people have (under the leadership of the Order of the Sun) taken arms against a truly horrific (maybe a handful of true daemons and a lot of the walking dead) enemy and are fighting valiantly, just without the means to truly stem the tide, since the dead always outweigh the living.

Fair point, though I'm not sure much of the warriors would survive, especially if there are daemons, as the contagion spreads very quickly and it's only a matter of time before even the healthiest succumb to it (not to mention that any wound that any man has would become infected in a matter of hours, sometimes minutes if they are near the war zone).

It's a relatively fair cop, and I'm not quite sure how else to give an explanation you'd be satisfied with other than chaos has attacked other Imperial worlds and Space Marine homeworlds and even called down daemons and hellfire, and yet those worlds are still in Imperial hands and used for manpower and resources.

Do you have any examples handy? Because all the ones I think of (apart from Cadia) have either become infected worlds or been destroyed via Exterminatus. I tried the same thing with Orks, it got shot down and I think that in the case of a Nurgle infection, it's very similar to the spreading of Ork spores. Also, GW do tend to stretch things a bit ;)

No worries, I love it.

Good ;)

Ludovic

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#6
Shinzaren

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Do you have any examples handy? Because all the ones I think of (apart from Cadia) have either become infected worlds or been destroyed via Exterminatus. I tried the same thing with Orks, it got shot down and I think that in the case of a Nurgle infection, it's very similar to the spreading of Ork spores. Also, GW do tend to stretch things a bit

Armageddon is another. During the first War for Armageddon, after defeating Angron, they decided the world was too valuable to Exterminatus, so they separated all the possibly warp touched and hauled in an entire new population. The decision to destroy a world or not rests in the hands of the commander for the Imperial Forces that have been fighting on said planet. In most Chaos battles, the commander realizes the world can't be saved and so they bomb it. However, if the Blazing Sons fought alone here, defended the world, and stood ready to ensure that nothing like it ever happened again, who would stop them? The =][= might watch them carefully for any signs of taint, but I doubt they would suddenly Warp in and bomb the place.

Now, perhaps the Iron Hands called for them? The Inquisition/Iron Hands show up and want to destroy it but the Sons lay it all the line and vouch for the world? The Inquisitor gives them the 1,000 yard stare and tells the Sons that they will be watched closely and leaves, and the Iron Hands just utter "We'll be back." and leave too. Sets up future entanglements with Imperial Forces if desired, and adds an emotional tie to the world of Firaxis.

Also, I hear a rumor that the Blazing Sons have a cool two part saying that they sometimes use before battles. Can you confirm or deny these rumors? :P

P.S. Proofread what I sent you so I can make final changes and get my Legends of the Liber entry submitted :rolleyes:

Edited by Shinzaren, 29 January 2011 - 08:24 PM.


#7
Aegnor

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Mordia was another example of a world that suffered a major Chaos incursion but wasn't exterminated.

As is Terra! ^_^

Edited by Aegnor, 29 January 2011 - 10:20 PM.

Fbm7BxJ.jpg SWyTedd.jpg

WIP - Salamanders and other randomsIt's not more guns or tactics this army needs, it's Thunder Hammers, and lots of them!

#8
Plague Angel

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[img]*snip*[/img]


1986?

Blazing Sons.


I applaud the pun. Good show.


Aesthetics are of Saxon/Anglo Saxon/Early Northern European influence.


With knightly orders? The aesthetics wouldn't fit.


Chapter finds it's Homeworld.
-Blazing Sons find the world (Firaxis) in the midst of a tumultuous war with Chaos.
-Inhabitants adhere to an offshoot of the Imperial Cult.
-Blazing Sons make planetfall and do battle with pirate slavers and nurgle incursion.
-Eventually Blazing Sons cleanse the world with fire and sword.
-Explanation of the Order of the Sun, who link the Chapter to the homeworlds people.


I like all this. Good planet name.

Each company is a full-fledged battle-company, no reserve companies exist.


I don't understand why this is so popular. It doesn't bother me, I'm just wondering why.

[Note, more power armoured units does not necissarily mean more men overall, so don't get the wrong idea and start harping on about chapter size ^_^


So they put the recruits in power armour right away instead of making them be scouts first?


[*]Chapter is founded (?th/?rd founding) using Ferrus Manus gene seed


That was unexpected. Why Manus? They don't seem to have any ties to their genetic heritage. Given their intimacy with the planet cult, would they really turn their back on their own Primarch completely like that?


[*]Sons feel severely disconnected from those they are meant to protect, Iron Hands seek to exploit this.


Exploit it how? To what end? Why are the Iron Hands sounding like simple villains?

They are Iron Hands. Weakness is their antithesis and just about all of them are psychotic mass murderers.


What.

Edited by Plague Angel, 29 January 2011 - 10:42 PM.


#9
Aegnor

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Each company is a full-fledged battle-company, no reserve companies exist.


I don't understand why this is so popular. It doesn't bother me, I'm just wondering why.


probably because a lot of people are like me and don't understand the whole reserve company thing and how it's meant to work and why it offers any benefits. Happy to be illuminated.

Edit: actually I'll make a separate thread on the main board so as not to derail this thread.

Edited by Aegnor, 29 January 2011 - 10:59 PM.

Fbm7BxJ.jpg SWyTedd.jpg

WIP - Salamanders and other randomsIt's not more guns or tactics this army needs, it's Thunder Hammers, and lots of them!

#10
Shinzaren

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probably because a lot of people are like me and don't understand the whole reserve company thing and how it's meant to work and why it offers any benefits. Happy to be illuminated.

Edit: actually I'll make a separate thread on the main board so as not to derail this thread.

Actually, it's not bad to answer it here, so that GHY gets the explanation if he needs it. The simple answer is that Reserve is a misnomer. While technically the Battle and Reserve companies are separate, the truth is slightly more convoluted. Fighting forces of Space Marines are almost never drawn wholesale from each company, but are instead assembled from a variety of companies. The 1st will supply Veterans, the battle companies will provide tactical marines and the bulk of the forces, and the "reserve" companies will provide the specialists, ie: Scouts, Devastators, Bikes, Assault Squads, etc. This enables marines to deal with every possible threat. The reserve companies also fulfill another role.

If your entire army was fighting all the time, except for your Scouts(who are still fighting a lot), the attrition from combat will mean that your battle companies will eventually run out of recruits and will therefore be unable to continue. The reserve companies train marines in combat, and as their skills improve, they move to the next phase, ensuring a steady supply of brothers that are reaching the pinnacle of their training and becoming tactical marines. It is only through this assembly line of skill training, that tactical squads receive a constant flow of well trained and well rounded brothers.

The purpose of the reserve companies is to further train the new marines into fully rounded marines. They enhance the specialties already taught to them as Scouts. By mastering each specialization, and gaining combat experience with each, they are better prepared to become tactical marines, who are required to fight with all weapons as needed. If the reserve specialists are unavailable for whatever reason, tactical marines will switch over to fill the missing roles. In this way, the skills they learned in each of the specialized companies are put to use, enabling them a huge degree of flexibility. If you take that away, and thrust Scouts directly into Tactical Companies, they will be lacking the specialized skills they would have otherwise honed in the reserves.

There are notable exceptions to this, most prevalently the Space Wolves and the Templars, who each make up for this shortcoming in their own way. The Wolves specialize in melee combat, and thus place the most emphasis on it, allowing their Blood Claws to master that skill first, and allowing only the most veteran brothers to handle the roles of Devastator. The Templars pass on their skill individually, from Initiate to Neophyte, ensuring that the necessary skills are there. The most reliable, and quite frankly, the most sensible option is the Reserve companies, which the vast majority of Chapters uses. To say that your company has no reserve companies and instead has all their men fighting all the time, in every possible role and position, means that you will eventually run out of men. More importantly, you will run out of the specialized roles which can only be mastered through practice and repetition.

Hopefully that helps answer the question of why Reserve companies are important and useful, though not strictly mandatory. Any proper explanation of recruitment and training can bypass this. It is only a question of why you would do so, when GW has already given you a well planned out training paradigm. Still, the choice is yours :P

#11
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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The =][= might watch them carefully for any signs of taint, but I doubt they would suddenly Warp in and bomb the place.


*Inquisitorial ships warp in with a door-smashing sound*

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

1986?


Yes, a bit of inexcusable egotism there when the image was created. It's the year I was born! ;)

With knightly orders? The aesthetics wouldn't fit.


It's less of a knightly order and more like the Warrior Priests of Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy.

That was unexpected. Why Manus? They don't seem to have any ties to their genetic heritage. Given their intimacy with the planet cult, would they really turn their back on their own Primarch completely like that?


Number one, the geneseed is stable and pure so far as I am aware. Secondly, while most chapters will be Ultramarines and Imperial Fists descendants, the other first founding chapters would likely have a certain percentage of geneseed passed on in every founding if they desired.

Lastly, because everyone picks ruddy UM or IF geneseed. I have a heavy dislike of the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are everywhere. Also because it helps set up a bit of a narrative.

*Edit*
Oh and lastly, they do have their own, lesser obsessive traits, you just haven't seen them yet. It's not weakness of the flesh that bothers them, it's weakness of will. You choose your own fate and if you choose wrongly, you die. There can be no excusing your own bad choices and if you try, you die. Really it's all rather bleak if you choose wrongly in the Sons eyes.

Exploit it how? To what end? Why are the Iron Hands sounding like simple villains?


Because that's their role in this story, to be frank. The Iron Hands are notorious for being cold, unemotional and psychotic in their desire to rid both themselves and the Imperium of weakness. They have slaughtered entire planetary populations before simply for not matching up to their insanely (literally) high standards. The entire chapter cult breeds a psychosis that mandates machine strength overcome the weakness of the flesh. Un-damaged flesh, the flesh they were given when they were made Astartes.

It's both easier and more characterful to have villainous Iron Hands when their obsession fits the needs of the narrative so well, at least to my mind.

Also keep in mind these are just extremely trimmed down bullet points. Nothing has been expanded on so you're drawing a bit too much 'simplicity' from something that is designed to be a simple bullet point.

What.


See above.

It is only a question of why you would do so, when GW has already given you a well planned out training paradigm. Still, the choice is yours


Ah well, this could be a thorny subject.

Each of the companies being self-contained to me makes more sense than mixing and matching forces from other companies.

If a company is self-contained and self-sufficient it is implied that they draw their own recruits and train them independently. Does this mean they aren't trained properly? No it just means they aren't all lumped in together in the scout company.

The explanation you've given is more of an explanation of a combined arms force, not a special forces team. I envision Space Marines to be more the latter than the former. Most special forces groups (so far as I know) are generally somewhat self-contained, unless working with regular forces (in this case, the Guard or similar).

Oh and related to this:

So they put the recruits in power armour right away instead of making them be scouts first?


Yes and it's something I was never sold on, but liked nonetheless. It seems to fit the Sons character more than the scout route, but I never found a way to replace the role held by the scouts other than just using regular fast attack units.

It may be too much of a problem and I'll just cut it and go with standard codex SOP.

Edited by Grey Hunter Ydalir, 30 January 2011 - 03:33 AM.

The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#12
Plague Angel

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1986?

Yes, a bit of inexcusable egotism there when the image was created. It's the year I was born! :HQ:


Me too, actually. I was just making sure I wasn't seeing things!

With knightly orders? The aesthetics wouldn't fit.

It's less of a knightly order and more like the Warrior Priests of Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy.


Hmm.

Posted Image
Posted Image

Yeah, I guess those look similar enough. Never noticed before.


Lastly, because everyone picks ruddy UM or IF geneseed.


Well there's a very good in-universe reason for that. However:

Oh and lastly, they do have their own, lesser obsessive traits, you just haven't seen them yet. It's not weakness of the flesh that bothers them, it's weakness of will. You choose your own fate and if you choose wrongly, you die. There can be no excusing your own bad choices and if you try, you die. Really it's all rather bleak if you choose wrongly in the Sons eyes.


This sounds interesting, and I'm looking forward to the full IA now. Consider this question fully satisfied.

Why are the Iron Hands sounding like simple villains?


Because that's their role in this story, to be frank.


Fair enough.

Also keep in mind these are just extremely trimmed down bullet points. Nothing has been expanded on so you're drawing a bit too much 'simplicity' from something that is designed to be a simple bullet point.


Touché. I am watching this with interest. It looked promising, and your answers to my questions only reinforce my expectations.

#13
Dosjetka

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Armageddon is another. During the first War for Armageddon, after defeating Angron, they decided the world was too valuable to Exterminatus, so they separated all the possibly warp touched and hauled in an entire new population. The decision to destroy a world or not rests in the hands of the commander for the Imperial Forces that have been fighting on said planet. In most Chaos battles, the commander realizes the world can't be saved and so they bomb it. However, if the Blazing Sons fought alone here, defended the world, and stood ready to ensure that nothing like it ever happened again, who would stop them? The =][= might watch them carefully for any signs of taint, but I doubt they would suddenly Warp in and bomb the place.

I completely disagree. While we are both talking about Chaos incursions, the one on Armageddon and the one the Blazing Sons have on their hands pretty much completely different.

Nurgle is the Chaos God of disease and rot, meaning that he releases all these illnesses and viruses to try them out on humans to see how they work out. When Nurgle chooses a planet to become infected and sends his own daemons, he will do everything to get that planet completely infected (see the Gheistos Cataclysm, in the 5th Ed. Rulebook, after the page about Daemons of Chaos). A disease can last a long time and can survive in extreme climate, etc..., especially in the case of viruses, as we can see in our own time (viruses can "hibernate", IIRC). Imagine what kind of viruses there would be in the future! I do agree that in the case of the Bubonic Plague and the Spanish 'Flu, they came and went, leaving millions dead but never (for the moment) reappearing. IMO, it would be the same on Firaxis, and the Ordo Malleus would never (again, in my opinion) let humans, let alone Space Marines, live on a planet tainted by Nurgle. Especially since it's not only the humans that can get infected but also the plants, water and animals.

Armageddon was a different matter as it was not a Nurgle infestation, but a Khorne one, which is of different nature (lots of killing but no disease and the taint is quickly removed by executing all humans who witnessed the attack).

Again, this is only myopinion, so feel free to ignore it.

Ludovic

Edited by Battle-Brother Ludovic, 30 January 2011 - 11:03 AM.

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#14
Aegnor

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Bubonic plague is still pretty common in some parts of the world. For the most part, closed sewers, hygiene and antibiotics have made it a thing of the past, but it still kills hundreds or more in the developing world.
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#15
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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I suppose I could be pursuaded to move the chaos incursion from Nurgle to Khorne (or Tzeentch or Slaanesh), however it was just such an iconic battle to me. For the dark-age (saxon) people of Firaxis being lead by the warriors of the Order of the Sun to fight against the implacable, growing tide of dead and corrupted former kinsmen.

Hmm. Thinking about it, perhaps a different god would be better. After all, the odds are more highly stacked against them when fighting the forces of Khorne, and nothing speaks to manipulating their way back into favour for the slighted tribe, the same going for their bruised pride and ego's when dealing with Slaanesh. Chaos in general perhaps may be the best way to go, undivided and all.

Anyone have anything they would add to the discussion to help the decision? It'd be greatly appreciated.

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#16
Dosjetka

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Bubonic plague is still pretty common in some parts of the world. For the most part, closed sewers, hygiene and antibiotics have made it a thing of the past, but it still kills hundreds or more in the developing world.

Sorry, didn't get my facts exactly right, but my point is the same.

Ludovic

Edit:

I suppose I could be pursuaded to move the chaos incursion from Nurgle to Khorne (or Tzeentch or Slaanesh), however it was just such an iconic battle to me. For the dark-age (saxon) people of Firaxis being lead by the warriors of the Order of the Sun to fight against the implacable, growing tide of dead and corrupted former kinsmen.

Hmm. Thinking about it, perhaps a different god would be better. After all, the odds are more highly stacked against them when fighting the forces of Khorne, and nothing speaks to manipulating their way back into favour for the slighted tribe, the same going for their bruised pride and ego's when dealing with Slaanesh. Chaos in general perhaps may be the best way to go, undivided and all.

Anyone have anything they would add to the discussion to help the decision? It'd be greatly appreciated.

I think it would be better if it were Undivided, but maybe include human traitors/renegades and Traitor Marines: if there are too many daemons, there is a greater chance of Grey Knight involvement and Exterminatus.

Maybe you could use my Serpent Corsairs in your attack? :cuss

Edited by Battle-Brother Ludovic, 30 January 2011 - 11:00 AM.

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#17
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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I don't want to include too many outer influences on the fight. I'd prefer it to be more the fact that the people are fighting against odds that are clearly against them and yet they still go on. They choose to resist and to fight, that's the key moment and what draws the Blazing Sons to them, to their aid and to take the world as their home.

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Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
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#18
Dosjetka

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I don't want to include too many outer influences on the fight. I'd prefer it to be more the fact that the people are fighting against odds that are clearly against them and yet they still go on. They choose to resist and to fight, that's the key moment and what draws the Blazing Sons to them, to their aid and to take the world as their home.

Ok, no worries, I'll find someone else :D

Ludovic

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#19
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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No no don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind using your Serpent Corsairs, however it'd have to be really small numbers, like a handful of squads at most, which seems like a really small number to bring to the table given that since it is an established warband of another Liberite, more would have to go into the explanation as to how they didn't get the hell out of dodge when the Blazing Sons fleet first showed up, then proceeded to make planetfall.

If you can answer those questions, I'll be all for it! :D

The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#20
Dosjetka

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No no don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind using your Serpent Corsairs, however it'd have to be really small numbers, like a handful of squads at most, which seems like a really small number to bring to the table given that since it is an established warband of another Liberite, more would have to go into the explanation as to how they didn't get the hell out of dodge when the Blazing Sons fleet first showed up, then proceeded to make planetfall.

If you can answer those questions, I'll be all for it! :D

Ok, give me some time and I'll get a few ideas down. As for the small numbers, that's exactly how I saw them operating :lol:

Ludovic

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#21
Shinzaren

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Nurgle is the Chaos God of disease and rot, meaning that he releases all these illnesses and viruses to try them out on humans to see how they work out. When Nurgle chooses a planet to become infected and sends his own daemons, he will do everything to get that planet completely infected (see the Gheistos Cataclysm, in the 5th Ed. Rulebook, after the page about Daemons of Chaos). A disease can last a long time and can survive in extreme climate, etc..., especially in the case of viruses, as we can see in our own time (viruses can "hibernate", IIRC). Imagine what kind of viruses there would be in the future! I do agree that in the case of the Bubonic Plague and the Spanish 'Flu, they came and went, leaving millions dead but never (for the moment) reappearing. IMO, it would be the same on Firaxis, and the Ordo Malleus would never (again, in my opinion) let humans, let alone Space Marines, live on a planet tainted by Nurgle. Especially since it's not only the humans that can get infected but also the plants, water and animals.

Armageddon was a different matter as it was not a Nurgle infestation, but a Khorne one, which is of different nature (lots of killing but no disease and the taint is quickly removed by executing all humans who witnessed the attack).

Again, this is only myopinion, so feel free to ignore it.

Ludovic

Yeah, I understand that Nurgle is a bit extreme, but Chaos is Chaos. The requirements to bomb a planet are pretty low in the Imperium. I'm not saying they SHOULD let the planet live, but I am saying that if every planet Nurgle touched was burned, there would be no planets left. If a world is valuable enough, they WILL find a way to preserve it. Yes, Nurgle is a special case, but I don't think it is impossible for it to work. I would recommend a God switch too, but if he wants Nurgle, it can still work.

#22
Grey Hunter Ydalir

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This is very much the feel I was going for with Firaxis. Though obviously toned down a fair bit, but the mood is right.

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*Edit*

It could work with Nurgle, after a lot of work and explanation. At this stage I'm more than willing to go with an infinitely easier route given the state of the rest of the article (ie: non-existent).

The god switcheroo is fine, but to Undivided or another, specific god? I was leaning towards undivided because I'd rather go middle of the road than anything else. Also chaos furies being smacked with axes and shot with crossbows sounds like fun. :)

Edited by Grey Hunter Ydalir, 30 January 2011 - 05:31 PM.

The Octaguide.
The Thousand Marine Myth.

On the scale mismatch of bolts and bolters by Coldfyre

Commissar Molotov's Castigators - Essential reading for IA Creation.

"...I have seen the birth of this world and I have seen its death. I walked with the first men and I shared a beer with the last. For me everyone is both old and young at the same time as a million lifetimes pass before my eyes and humanity is like the grains of sand in the desert, each breath to me a sigh in the vast never-ending vacumn of space."
-Silver Phoenix


#23
Shinzaren

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Firaxis has giant demon dragons!? That's pretty much the most awesome thing ever. Goodluck killing it though, looks pretty big. I'd request Titan Legion support :)

#24
CKO

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As far as nurgle infection is concern, the Cadian Gate Worlds all have fallen victim to nurgle's disease at one point in time but they were not exterminated. Nurgle disease is deadly but it can be overcome and it certainly isnt an automatic death button for an entire world.

Edited by CKO, 30 January 2011 - 08:42 PM.


#25
Marshal Renatus

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The Blazing Sons continuous and perhaps never ending crusade in the northern expanse stretches their resources and supply lines to breaking point. As such any and all recruits that survive the induction process are sent directly to their battle companies, being drawn up into power-armoured assault squads, to gain their first blood against the enemies of Mankind. Only when they have proved themselves in the fires of war are they elevated to full brotherhood.


There is an inherent paradox here. The Blazing Sons are waging such a vast and costly crusade that they barely get enough supplies and equipment to sustain it, and to combat this they take all of their recruits and put them in rare and costly power armor versus putting them in cheap and easy to produce carapace armor? Wouldn't it be more likely that they'd field some squads of battle brothers in carapace armor, in addition to the recruits, due to their dire supply constraints? Or maybe they can only field "X" number of fully equipped battle companies...the rest of the chapter using whatever is available? Or even sending teams of scouts to scour space hulks and old battlefields for forgotten wargear that could be salvaged?

Just some thoughts.