142 replies to this topic

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Oh not your rules. The base+bolt-on concept is the problem. The current book doesn't bother much with flavor text for the psyker powers.

I just want to know what purpose the bolt-ons have in your mind.

The division should be meaningful and not split hairs. My suggestion follows.

Librarians are a Chapter's countermeasure against malefeasant warpcraft. They serve the Chapter's officers as bellweathers and advisers against diabolic sorceries, and where possible, they confront directly the creatures of the warp and their mortal pawns. Librarians may employ their arcane abilities directly in battle, but must never fall victim to the fell powers they battle against.

Codiciers may choose one power from a basic list including a 5+ cover save, a 2d6 run move, smite, machine curse, and the avenger at s4. Basic librarians should be ancillary characters used mostly for their psychic hood and force weapon, so they become bonus slots to normal HQ characters, have one power, and are reduced from their current stats to a minor hero's ld9. Their primary functions are weeding out unstable recruits and analyzing intelligence, not acting as walking cannons.

Only the most experienced Librarians are permitted to actively develop and employ their psychic talents, and they often assume various idioms conforming to their personal character and cultural context. They choose one power from the basic list, and they also choose one power from the arcane lore. These are the vortices of doom, the gates of infinity. Librarians Seniori are proper HQ choices with major hero stat lines, and the powers they choose from might indicate their chapter. Judgement allows them to reduce a single enemy model to one attack, Righteousness gives a 4++ to their squad, Heresy gives them an extra attack at s10 that auto-hits but can backfire, Arcana allows their squad to move as beasts and S&P, Repugnance allows a vehicle within twelve inches to fire at cruising speed, regardless of being stunned, Glory mastercrafts a unit's armor and weapons.

Looks like the Librarian issue is solved then

[bannus]

It looks like the marked daemon weapon model, which does have some benefits.

I think bannus' idea is to link the librarian powers, at least vaguely, to chapter archetypes....Since the project is based on Insignium Astartes, I can't see that the powers make much of a difference. The only incentive to tinker with them is for distinguishing among Chapters, but that is surplus to strict requirments.

- Librarians should be a viable choice in every codex, though not a must-have unit.....Should all the schools be equal in cost and ability, or should we have variations in how good one school is, with appropiate points range? I'm personally a fan of having all the schools be equal, but that's just me.

Wow, you guys have really taken off with this! Kudos!

Yes, I was thinking that the 'schools' would represent archetypes that would be appropriate for certain types of Chapters (but would not have to be too specific - staying generic enough for DIYs) - but with a base of powers common to them all - probably the most basic and effective powers. These 'root' powers would be very simple in effect - as far as rules go and suitably vague in description so that one power could represent a variety of 'counts as' effects.

Schools of Thought might include a category that focuses on tricking the enemy mind, one that can manipulate elemental forces, one that can 'amp up' individuals (speed/strength), one focused on meshing with the mechanical (aka Machine Curse and other powers along that vein), etc. Potential ideas for schools are endless.

This ensures that all Librarians (regardless of Chapter/School) would be largely equal in power and ability, but the 'Schools of Thought' would allow for some variety to distinguish Librarians from different Chapters - so that they are not all be 'the same'.

Ideally, I would like the pros and cons of each school to be balanced - but that is a pretty tall order to fill.


Does this seem like a logical approach? As VSM pointed out, Insignium Astartes doesn't offer much in this category. So we don't have any real guidelines to follow outside of paint and wardrobe.

Edited by bannus, 23 September 2011 - 04:37 AM.

[voi shet magir]

Did you want to link schools and other chapter traits? I don't think you should; it doesn't provide anything, but that would be the only reason for distinct groups of powers.

If I were using this codex or playing against it, I'd rather avoid worrying about legal combinations of powers. Each school would consist of a single signature power. Librarians could choose only once from the signature powers list, and any others would have to be basic. The signature powers would be the major powers, and the basic ones only utilitarian perks like the invulnerable save you mentioned. If that power is to make a single model's normal save invulnerable, it provides insufficient incentive to take the librarian, so the focus remains on whatever signature power accompanies it.

I wonder also if you are assuming the powers' prices will be included in the base unit price. I'm very comfortable with that and see no reason to add a whole extra price list.

I just want to know what purpose the bolt-ons have in your mind.

cuz I want to leaen new ways of thinking. new always, and better

[bannus]

Did you want to link schools and other chapter traits? I don't think you should; it doesn't provide anything, but that would be the only reason for distinct groups of powers.

Not necessarily - but it is possible that some Chapters may be restricted in selections. The concept is still pretty fluid at the moment.

If I were using this codex or playing against it, I'd rather avoid worrying about legal combinations of powers. Each school would consist of a single signature power. Librarians could choose only once from the signature powers list, and any others would have to be basic. The signature powers would be the major powers, and the basic ones only utilitarian perks like the invulnerable save you mentioned. If that power is to make a single model's normal save invulnerable, it provides insufficient incentive to take the librarian, so the focus remains on whatever signature power accompanies it.

I would like to see a selection of powers available from each school - but the Libby may only choose one.

As for the invulnerable save - I see it as an incentive to take the Libby. As it is now, the lack of an invulnerable save outside of Terminator armor/storm shiled is a downside.

I wonder also if you are assuming the powers' prices will be included in the base unit price. I'm very comfortable with that and see no reason to add a whole extra price list.

That would be ideal - yes. However, if we have issues making the powers 'equal' (I know the term is very subjective) in capability, I would not be opposed to a points allocation for some (in a similar manner to 4th edition).

I just want to know what purpose the bolt-ons have in your mind.

cuz I want to leaen new ways of thinking. new always, and better

Not necessarily. On the other side of coin we have "if it isn't broken - don't fix it."

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I just want to know what purpose the bolt-ons have in your mind.

cuz I want to leaen new ways of thinking. new always, and better

It adds variety to the game, which in turn makes it more enjoyable. There is a fine line between making a variety of options and making it overcomplicated, but so long as we make sure we doon't cross that line we should be fine.

A side note, it's always bothered me that Librarians don't have a 5++ as standard. I understand having the power to extend that protection, but their psychic defenses should always be up, not just when they choose to use a certain power.

[bannus]

A side note, it's always bothered me that Librarians don't have a 5++ as standard.

Just a note - in these rules, not even Chapter Masters have an invulnerable save as 'standard'. Only Chaplains have the invulnerable save as part of their standard wargear.

[voi shet magir]

I have written psychic powers, and appended a unit entry for Librarians. Profiles should differ in more than just their wounds, and differ in more than just their stat lines in general. So Ld9 Librarians get only a junior power and cannot use terminator armor, and cannot even lead an army. Librarians Seniori chapter-specific powers and have substantial statlines. They are just expressions of the overall idea that some librarians are modest junior officers and some have authority and skill.

Farseers choose from five powers, chaos sorcerors have seven, including three god-specific ones. If each chapter lineage got only one power, and there were several generic powers, we would exceed those numbers impractically. The more important reason to limit their proliferation is their relevance. You seem to get along for years without any contact with Librarians. Even for those players who do use them, psychic powers do not demand any change in modeling, and I assume we will continue to build their price into the librarian's base points, so they don't even affect points totals.

Any Librarian must select one psychic power from the following list.

Andromantine: this power may be used instead of a shooting attack. For remainder of the turn, one model in the Librarian's unit may treat its armor save as though it were invulnerable.

Machine Curse is a psychic shooting attack made against units with an armor value. Instead of rolling to hit, the librarian rolls a d6. On any result other than a one, a vehicle within 18” takes one glancing hit.

The Avenger: The Librarian may make an assault 1 psychic shooting attack with a template at s4, ap3.

seven celerous cervejas:I don't know, not really During the shooting phase, roll two dice. The Librarian and his unit may use one of these as their run move. Add the other to their initiative value for remainder of the turn. The librarian and his unit count as fleet.

Might of Ancients, or something like it.

Smite: the Librarian may use the Smite psychic shooting attack, whatever that happens to be that week.


Librarians Seniori may select one psychic power from the following list of Chapter Lore, or may have a seconf power from the list of mundane powers.

Judgment:attempted at the start of an assault phase, before any assault moves have been made. For the remainder of the assault phase, a single enemy model within six inches may make no more than one attack, including all bonus attacks for multiple close combat weapons, charging, or other sources. (These are "Dark Angels")

Might: This power is attempted in the Space Marine movement phase. For remainder of the turn, the Librarian and any unit he is with may reroll any armor saves or rolls to hit that result in ones. (Salamanders)

Intransigence: This is a psychic shooting attack with range 18” made against a unit with an AV value within line of sight of the Librarian. The Space Marine player may force that vehicle to count as stationary, moving at combat speed, cruising speed, or as a skimmer moving flat-out for the remainder of a game turn, regardless of how far it actually moves. No ballistic test is required, and the power may be used against friendly models. (Iron Hands)

Righteousness: This power may only be used during an opponent's movement phase. Successful rolls to wound made against one unit within six inches of the Librarian must be re-rolled. (Imperial Fists)

Deception: This is a psychic shooting power with a range of 30”. If the Librarian passes his ballistic test, the target unit must test for its spotting distance when it wishes to shoot or charge. (Raven Guard)

Celerity: If the Librarian and any unit he is part of do not make an assault move, they may make a normal fall back move as though they had lost a morale test. The move may be made in any direction and can be used to board a transport, but the unit must still regroup normally and counts in all ways as falling back for purposes of movement, assault, and regrouping.(White Scars)

Arcana: This power may be attempted in an assault phase. In addition to his normal attacks, the Librarian may perform one attack at s10 that ignores armor saves. This attack does not require a roll to hit. If this attack rolls a one to hit or penetrate, resolve it against the Librarian's squad instead.(Blood Ravens/Relictors)

LIBRARIUM

	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Librarian Senioris	5	5	4	4	2	5	3	10	3+
Codicier or Lexicanium	5	4	4	4	2	4	2	9	3+

170 points

Unit Composition	Unit Type	Wargear	Special Rules
1 Librarian Senioris	Infantry	Power armor Force weapon Psychic hood Bolt pistol Frag and krak grenades	Independent Character Psyker

Options:

• The Librarian may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol, storm shield, power fist, lightning claw or thunder hammer.
• The Librarian may replace his force weapon with a lightning claw, powerfist, or thunder hammer for free
• The Librarian may take a bolter, storm bolter, or combi-weapon.
• A Librarian Senioris may replace his power armor with artificer armor.
• The Librarian may take a jump pack or Space Marine Bike.
• The Librarian may take digital weapons and/or melta bombs.

OR

• A Librarian Senioris may replace his power armor, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades with Terminator armor and storm bolter (retaining his Force Weapon and psychic hood).
• The Librarian Senioris may exchange his storm bolter for power weapon, storm shield, thunder hammer or lightning claw, power fist or chainfist.

Epistolary: Librarians Seniori may attempt two powers per player turn. Or this probably inflates points unacceptably, especially when including wargear and > 200pt squad.

Lex Diabolus: The galaxy abounds with hidden terrors, and one grim branch of the chapter is permitted to delve the lore of these enemies. Space Marine armies are often accompanied by psychic warriors whose advice blends the academic and the arcane. Their knowledge of planning and chapter history is sometimes eclipsed by their vigilance against the forbidden dangers that live within all men. For every other HQ selection made, on codicier may be included in the army for ninety points each.






Carrying on with differentiating profiles in rules, I have some new ideas about the Captain. One is the standardized profile, and duplicates the idea that as a Chief Librarian is probably not too different from an Epistolary, a Chapter Master probably has equals in the senior Captains - Marneus Calgar may as an individual be amazingly better than everyone, but Agemman and Sicarius would probably have stats unmodified from those they have now either of them end up as Chapter Master. So as the above Codicier has stats for a minor hero, and the senior Librarians are major heroes, so too the regular captain is a major hero, and a master of the chapter has the stats of a lord, which he would share with the separate Chapter Master entry. This should indicate that the job of leading a company can be filled by different types of person.


I think the whole idea of masters of the chapter can be rolled into allowing the upgraded, lord-level profile to have Orbital Bombardment or to choose Scouts or Terminators, etcetera, as troops.

Company Master

	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Captain	5	5	4	4	2	5	3	10	3+
Lord Commander	6	5	4	4	3	5	3	10	3+

90 points

Unit Composition	Unit Type	Wargear	Special Rules
1 Captain	Infantry	Power armor Close Combat Weapon Bolt pistol Frag and krak grenades	Independent Character Mounted Assault Chapter Incarnate

Options:

• The Captain may replace his close combat weapon with a plasma pistol, power weapon, power fist, lightning claw, thunder hammer, or relic blade.
• The Captain may replace his bolt pistol with a plasma pistol, power weapon, storm shield, power fist, lightning claw or thunder hammer.
• The Captain may take a bolter, storm bolter, or combi-weapon.
• A Captain may replace his power armor with artificer armor.
• The Captain may take a jump pack or Space Marine Bike.
• The Captain may take digital weapons and/or melta bombs.
• The Captain may be upgraded to a Lord Commander.
• Iron Halo
• A Lord Commander may exchange his bolter for a Psycannon.

OR

• The Captain may replace his power armor, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades with Terminator armor, power weapon, and storm bolter.
• The Captain may exchange either of his weapons for power weapon, storm shield, thunder hammer, lightning claw, power fist or chainfist.

Chapter Incarnate: The presence of a captain on the battlefield indicates supremely intensive coordination and indomitably concentrated resources. The battle is no minor operation, but a committed decision of the Chapter's authority as embodied in its chosen proxy. If a Captain is included in the army, the Space Marine player may choose to begin rolling for reserves in his first turn. Reserves arrive on a 4+, and this rule does not affect subsequent reserve rolls.

Edited by voi shet magir, 02 November 2011 - 07:30 PM.

[bannus]

I haven't looked at all of the Libby powers in depth, but they look to be fairly universal - great job.

The problem with giving Libbies a Leadership of 9 is that no one will take them. That was the problem in 4th edition. In the words of many Space Marine players at that time "Ld9 Libbies basically suck". We could alter their profile in other categories (number of attacks and BS as you have done), but the Ld9 will make the lower level Libby a non-starter for most players.

Also, limiting the lower level Librarian to a single power will further cripple his potential appeal.

Would you spend the points on the lower-level libby in your army?

[voi shet magir]

I'm going to behave as though that isn't a rhetorical question.

Librarians are different things when they are in different armies and have different point costs and provide different powers.

If I take a captain (I would if he has a powerful ability like Rites of Battle or the one I wrote in above), and I want a psychic hood, I can get one for less than a hundred points, or a slightly better one for twice as many points. Leadership nine psychic hoods are something like 15/36 effective against ld 10 powers, and ld ten powers are 21/36. I think, I just did that as I was typing. Either way, that margin is not worth twice the points. Anyway, if ld9 junior libbys end up facing ld9 junior libby opponents, the psychic hood problem goes away.

Psychic hoods are extremely important. Of course, they actually involve chasing down a psyker to get within him inside range of a hood. That means you'd rather have a cheaper, dedicated hood than a hood on an expensive combat monster whose priority is casting his own powers in other areas of the board. It also means junior Librarians don't have to necessarily worry about being confronted by opposing ld10 hoods or tyranids' Shadow in the Warp.

Then of course it depends on the powers available. The current powers are situational and limited, so Librarians get two powers just so that they can actually do something more than once a game. There also seems to be this idea in 5th that marine HQ choices need to be a certain amount of points, so so they should get to be useful most of the game. Since the junior Libby is not actually an hq choice, his points can be lowered below 100, and it becomes more reasonable to cast only one power per game.

I also have this agendum of keeping tactical squads out of close combat, even with their new close combat weapon (and Ultragrit armies prefer close combat by a noticeable margin). I think the way to do that is limit their access to power weapons, so suddenly a ws5 force weapon becomes more appealing for those situations when combat against hardened enemies is called for.

It's also weird that they have leadership ten, because it is still the leadership stat and they are probably as- or less experienced than most veterans. They are functionaries whose job involves performing individual feats: they aren't suddenly enormously better than 97% of the chapter. I use this expression "individual feats," because I'd like to make it a benchmark for standardized profiles.

The marine who is a unit champion, or member of a unit-of-champions (veterans) is defined by being the demonstrably greatest of his peer group. This is a literal meaning of the word - he's the biggest dog in a yard, but if all the other dogs are small, that doesn't specify that he is of a particular size. He is the greatest representative of a group, but does not have to have accomplished anything on his own.

Of course, sometimes the position of greatest is indeterminate, so some groups do not have champions. They may be a group of marines among whom none have particularly distinguished themselves from the rest.

The next step is minor hero. Once again relying on a literal sense of the term, a hero can perform feats on his own. Whereas a unit champion might be able to jump significantly higher than the other members of his group, a minor hero meets some objective criterion of being able to jump over a wall of some imposing dimension. A champion might be the best of his peers, but that does not mean he will actually win out over the opposition, only that he has the best chance of doing so. The hero's identity does not depend, the way a marine's or a champion's does, on being a member of a group.

The minor hero's identity is independent. His ability to perform independently is facilitated by a second wound, and his competence is represented by his confrontational advantage over group-members: weapon skill five. An increase in leadership beyond that of the champion is unwarranted, because his feats may be isolated.

Major heroes must not only perform these feats of surpassing standards, they must do so consistently, to popular acclaim, and to greater degree than minor heroes. Only this consistence and acclaim can justify the improvements in ballistic skill and leadership, the confrontational edge over minor heroes their initiative, and their higher standard of performance their third attack.

Lords are heroes emeritus, their heroics are fait accompli. This demonstrated endurance merits a third wound, and ws6 is supplied by their undoubted confrontations with other major heroes. It also means that a minor hero, like a "master sergeant" captain-in-waiting has to improve every part of his profile in order to reach this status.

Marines will probably not be made captains unless they have the qualities of Major Heroes. Psykers who are not great enough to be minor heroes would probably be killed, to say nothing of being allowed into battle.

So I almost insist that marines who are not champions have the classic marine profile, and all veterans be champions, since that is the criteria for admission to first company, and continuous with the original rogue trader "assault squad" - a unit of champions. "Master Sergeants," company-level chaplains, junior librarians, and senior apothecaries cannot do their jobs unless they are minor heroes, and all exalted offices be occupied by major heroes. Chapter Masters and Chapter Masters-in-waiting (terminator captains, et al) obviously have the resumes to merit Lord stats.

Chaplains provide fearlessness, not leadership. If they were the same, they wouldn't be different. Lesser Librarians do not have the best-practically-possible chance of casting their psychic powers, so if they do not fit into the army with less than maximized leadership, then we can only fix that by either providing a more useful payoff (rewriting the powers) or lowering their points. The ability to make one model's armor save invulnerable has great potential, and if machine curse becomes, say, an automatic-shaken result with weapon destroyed on a 4+, ld9 becomes a non-issue.

You have to change Master Sergeant's title. I don't think marines go in for this senior-gunnery-sergeant-second-class business. Even if some do, it is in the class of Khan or Shadow Captain, it can't be a universal measure. You don't have to use Company Champion or Force Commander, but those are much closer to idiom of the fraternal orders of holy supermen than Master Sergeant.

I'll add at the end that it's true, the statlines may seem unexalted, but the problem with stats is that they are ordinal numbers and they have a limited range. They are not cardinal, there is nothing magical about hitting 5/6 of the time unless compared to hitting 2/3 of the time. When this kind of ordinal number is improved just to suit the perceived dignity of an independent character, it only causes an arms race of adjusting other units' stats until everyone is maxed out. Once Ld10 psychic hoods are confronting nothing but Ld10 powers, there is no point in having a leadership stat at all. This applies to weapon skill just as well.

You wouldn't have to give chapter masters four wounds to make them better than captains if captains only had two wounds in the first place. What's more, an extra wound is a lot more valuable when it is added to two wounds than when it's added to three. If somebody were to come up with, say, the greatest chapter master of all time and he's made entirely out of bionics, adding a wound to a standardized four-wound profile is almost meaningless, so he would need even more elaborate measures to make him great. Stat-lines are a resource you need to husband.

(It's Calgar) Some exceptions might obviously be made, like master of the forge, or the very occasional special character. I mean very few.

Edited by voi shet magir, 20 October 2011 - 12:55 AM.

[bannus]

Sorry for seems like a slow response. I had typed up a rather long response a few weeks ago - but it was lost to the warp.

Librarians are different things when they are in different armies and have different point costs and provide different powers.

If I take a captain (I would if he has a powerful ability like Rites of Battle or the one I wrote in above), and I want a psychic hood, I can get one for less than a hundred points, or a slightly better one for twice as many points. Leadership nine psychic hoods are something like 15/36 effective against ld 10 powers, and ld ten powers are 21/36. I think, I just did that as I was typing. Either way, that margin is not worth twice the points. Anyway, if ld9 junior libbys end up facing ld9 junior libby opponents, the psychic hood problem goes away.

Psychic hoods are extremely important. Of course, they actually involve chasing down a psyker to get within him inside range of a hood. That means you'd rather have a cheaper, dedicated hood than a hood on an expensive combat monster whose priority is casting his own powers in other areas of the board. It also means junior Librarians don't have to necessarily worry about being confronted by opposing ld10 hoods or tyranids' Shadow in the Warp.

At this point, we might want to ask ourselves - should the Librarian/psychic hood be that easily accessible? For a Chapter like the Blood Ravens, I could see this a potential option (or where a Chapter might concentrate Libbies for a special occasion....that is why the Chief Libby 'unlocks' Libbies as an Elites choice - but requires the original commitment in the HQ category first) - but I don't think it would be a viable option for all Space Marine armies. Is there a particular reason in the fluff that justifies this change? There is a reason why there is a limit to the number of HQ selections for all armies. If a player feels that a psychic hood is critical - then he must use an HQ slot to get it. Personally, I don't see Librarians being so commonplace (outside of the Blood Ravens) to warrant an independent Elites option.

Then of course it depends on the powers available. The current powers are situational and limited, so Librarians get two powers just so that they can actually do something more than once a game. There also seems to be this idea in 5th that marine HQ choices need to be a certain amount of points, so so they should get to be useful most of the game. Since the junior Libby is not actually an hq choice, his points can be lowered below 100, and it becomes more reasonable to cast only one power per game.

I agree that the HQ choices should start at 100 points - I don't see this inexpensive option meshing with what we know about Space Marines.

I also have this agendum of keeping tactical squads out of close combat, even with their new close combat weapon (and Ultragrit armies prefer close combat by a noticeable margin). I think the way to do that is limit their access to power weapons, so suddenly a ws5 force weapon becomes more appealing for those situations when combat against hardened enemies is called for.

Limiting close combat weapons will not keep Tactical Squads out of close combat - by their very nature, they must get within charge range to start becoming effective. Close Combat is inevitable for Tactical Marines. But I am working on another idea for them.

It's also weird that they have leadership ten, because it is still the leadership stat and they are probably as- or less experienced than most veterans. They are functionaries whose job involves performing individual feats: they aren't suddenly enormously better than 97% of the chapter. I use this expression "individual feats," because I'd like to make it a benchmark for standardized profiles.

Actually, I will have to disagree with you here. The percentage of psychic Space Marines that survive to truely become Librarians is very, very small - even the weakest Librarian will be an elite of an elite. They have tremendous mental discipline - and their Ld statistic should reflect that.

The marine who is a unit champion, or member of a unit-of-champions (veterans) is defined by being the demonstrably greatest of his peer group. This is a literal meaning of the word - he's the biggest dog in a yard, but if all the other dogs are small, that doesn't specify that he is of a particular size. He is the greatest representative of a group, but does not have to have accomplished anything on his own.

Of course, sometimes the position of greatest is indeterminate, so some groups do not have champions. They may be a group of marines among whom none have particularly distinguished themselves from the rest.

The next step is minor hero. Once again relying on a literal sense of the term, a hero can perform feats on his own. Whereas a unit champion might be able to jump significantly higher than the other members of his group, a minor hero meets some objective criterion of being able to jump over a wall of some imposing dimension. A champion might be the best of his peers, but that does not mean he will actually win out over the opposition, only that he has the best chance of doing so. The hero's identity does not depend, the way a marine's or a champion's does, on being a member of a group.

The minor hero's identity is independent. His ability to perform independently is facilitated by a second wound, and his competence is represented by his confrontational advantage over group-members: weapon skill five. An increase in leadership beyond that of the champion is unwarranted, because his feats may be isolated.

Major heroes must not only perform these feats of surpassing standards, they must do so consistently, to popular acclaim, and to greater degree than minor heroes. Only this consistence and acclaim can justify the improvements in ballistic skill and leadership, the confrontational edge over minor heroes their initiative, and their higher standard of performance their third attack.

Lords are heroes emeritus, their heroics are fait accompli. This demonstrated endurance merits a third wound, and ws6 is supplied by their undoubted confrontations with other major heroes. It also means that a minor hero, like a "master sergeant" captain-in-waiting has to improve every part of his profile in order to reach this status.

Marines will probably not be made captains unless they have the qualities of Major Heroes. Psykers who are not great enough to be minor heroes would probably be killed, to say nothing of being allowed into battle.

So I almost insist that marines who are not champions have the classic marine profile, and all veterans be champions, since that is the criteria for admission to first company, and continuous with the original rogue trader "assault squad" - a unit of champions. "Master Sergeants," company-level chaplains, junior librarians, and senior apothecaries cannot do their jobs unless they are minor heroes, and all exalted offices be occupied by major heroes. Chapter Masters and Chapter Masters-in-waiting (terminator captains, et al) obviously have the resumes to merit Lord stats..

I understand what you are saying here and - to a point - agree with you. But I do not think that the "profile progression" should be so fixed and inflexible. Each statistic of each profile should be altered on a specific merit - that is why I have Sergeants with Ld 9 and Veterans with Ld 8 - to reflect the specialized leadership training that Sergeants get and other Marines do not. I also think there should be room for the "Telions" in a Space Marine army. Outside of his one wound, he is comparable to a Captain in fighting prowess. I think a fixed progression of stats (all basic Marines get this, all Veterans get that, all minor IC's get something else....) constrains us to a box and limits our options too much.

Chaplains provide fearlessness, not leadership. If they were the same, they wouldn't be different. Lesser Librarians do not have the best-practically-possible chance of casting their psychic powers, so if they do not fit into the army with less than maximized leadership, then we can only fix that by either providing a more useful payoff (rewriting the powers) or lowering their points. The ability to make one model's armor save invulnerable has great potential, and if machine curse becomes, say, an automatic-shaken result with weapon destroyed on a 4+, ld9 becomes a non-issue.

It may come to a revamp of the psychic powers - or maybe stay with the simple solution of making all Libbies Ld10. I can see it working either way, but see the latter as providing less headaches.

You have to change Master Sergeant's title. I don't think marines go in for this senior-gunnery-sergeant-second-class business. Even if some do, it is in the class of Khan or Shadow Captain, it can't be a universal measure. You don't have to use Company Champion or Force Commander, but those are much closer to idiom of the fraternal orders of holy supermen than Master Sergeant.

The term 'Master Sergeant' is a generic term (much like Captain is - in the DA's he is a Company Master, in the Red Scorpions he is a Commander, etc.). The term 'Master' simply means he is the senior Sergeant. You can call him whatever you like in your army. He is not a 'Champion' however - that role is reserved for a different character that is not responsible for a leadership position - so we cannot use that name. Force Commander applies to.....well....the commander of the force and the Master Sergeant may not be in that role.

I'll add at the end that it's true, the statlines may seem unexalted, but the problem with stats is that they are ordinal numbers and they have a limited range. They are not cardinal, there is nothing magical about hitting 5/6 of the time unless compared to hitting 2/3 of the time. When this kind of ordinal number is improved just to suit the perceived dignity of an independent character, it only causes an arms race of adjusting other units' stats until everyone is maxed out. Once Ld10 psychic hoods are confronting nothing but Ld10 powers, there is no point in having a leadership stat at all. This applies to weapon skill just as well.

That may be true, but if no one even bothers selecting the Ld9 hood to begin with - then the point becomes moot.

You wouldn't have to give chapter masters four wounds to make them better than captains if captains only had two wounds in the first place. What's more, an extra wound is a lot more valuable when it is added to two wounds than when it's added to three. If somebody were to come up with, say, the greatest chapter master of all time and he's made entirely out of bionics, adding a wound to a standardized four-wound profile is almost meaningless, so he would need even more elaborate measures to make him great. Stat-lines are a resource you need to husband.

Absolutely. But I did not arbitrarily give the Chapter Master the option for 4 wounds. As I point in the original text. This character is one-in-a-thousand among a group that is one-in-a-million. His profile needs to reflect that. Space Marines are gods among men and the Chapter Master is a god among the gods. He should be very, very special and very, very expensive.

[Araith]

I've been reading through this thread for the past week. I like it. I like it a lot. Not that I necessarily agree with every design choice, but I've seen some very interesting and rather original ideas presented here. That's what got me hooked. I'm thinking in particular of the idea of entering tactical, assault and devastator squads as Troops choices; and your various thoughts about the command squad.
VSM, your posts are also interesting if only for the conceptual thinking portrayed there. It helps take a step back and look at what you're trying to design.

Your ideas and efforts have dragged me back into my design mode. Not that I can use it right now; I'm busy enough as it is without this additional distraction. But since I can't stop thinking about designing Astartes, I might as well let it out. So, soon I will start posting my ideas and pitching in in your discussion here - irregularly, since I'm rather busy these days. Pitching my own ideas I can do in this thread, or in a new thread, as you desire.

In the meanwhile, here's the last working document from when I was previously designing an Astartes codex, at least a year ago. Some ideas there might just appeal to you.
You'll note a major discrepancy between the Troops section and the rest of the codex; in that marines elsewhere all have 2 wounds. That was an idea I had back then, after which most of the codex was designed. Later however I started having doubts and rewrote the Troops section with only 1 wound per model. That's more or less when I stopped working on the project.

As regards my design philosophy, I largely base myself on existing fluff, especially as regards specific Chapters. However, I also take a step back and consider the army as a whole - not just on the table, but also in the background, and I consider how it would function. Then I largely design the army around that. It's thoughts like that which have led me, for example, to have doubts on whether the ubiquitous Rhino actually has a place in an Astartes army - just to give an example.

[bannus]

Your ideas and efforts have dragged me back into my design mode. Not that I can use it right now; I'm busy enough as it is without this additional distraction. But since I can't stop thinking about designing Astartes, I might as well let it out. So, soon I will start posting my ideas and pitching in in your discussion here - irregularly, since I'm rather busy these days. Pitching my own ideas I can do in this thread, or in a new thread, as you desire.

That depends on the ideas.

If you are just coming up with new and different rules ideas for Space Marines - then possibly a new thread would be best.

If you are looking at improving the rules/fluff relationship (i.e. making changes to the rules that reinforce the fluff and not diverge from it), then posting the ideas here would be great.

The point of this thread is somewhat threefold:

1) Make the army list balanced in a sense that each element has a valid and desireable effect in the army (so that it does not promote specific competative builds for example and so that units like Tactical Squads actually have a viable use in the army list besides objective holding).

2) Adhere to the established fluff using Insignium Astartes as the primary "canon" source for information. Other sources are secondary, but may be used where IA is lacking in information. There is a bit of a conflict here because of the introduction of previously non-existent units (Vanguard Vets for example) which have model ranges currently in production. So we have to make a few concessions for commercial reasons.

3) Simplifying the army list to minimize RAW vs. RAI issues - even at the expense of of being competative with the "newer" codicies that are being produced. The premise of this project assumes that the "power level" of each army would be brought into balance with the others - ending the cycle of "Codex Creep". As a subcategory of this, I also want to bring as many codices 'under one banner" as possible - so that each army can be effectively represented with as few alterations from the basic list as possible.

Within this framework, I'm open to hearing ideas to fix the Space Marine army. My opening post pretty much explains what is being attempted here.

Edited by bannus, 01 November 2011 - 08:07 PM.

[voi shet magir]

The Ultramarines have 28 Librarians, and the Blood Angels over 26. This number is greater than captaincies and company chaplaincies combined, and most Librarians would not be given formal command responsibilities. If a Chapter deploys 4-5 armies, each one could have five librarians of various ranks. In third edition, all Independent Characters were placed in HQ, but really Librarians should be as much like Techmarines as they are like commanders.

It is a suggestion exploring "the rules/fluff relationship." Juniors would be upgrades to a proper HQ, who tote them around as advisers and counter-measures. They would almost be wargear, a squad upgrade for a Captain or Chaplain. I don't care about anything other than troops, though.

It is strange that you are trying to explain things to me. You don't need to do that; you can't, really.

role is reserved for a different character that is not responsible for a leadership position

The current company champion is a confabulation and does not exist, I thought.

Do you know what arbitrary means? It doesn't mean random.

Can you describe what ld9 sergeants are meant to do to your army? Do you have a plan for them, an effect on the entire fielded army's performance? The line does not indicate that a squad in any way bereft without the exceptional leadership of their sergeants, that their performance depends on the individual with training in how to read a map.

god among the gods.

You get the same effect by giving captains two wounds and Masters three. More of one, actually.

Of course, you could be wrong. When the Chapter Master dies, do they go through another million candidates to be sure they have the best out of a million? They just appoint themselves a new chapter master, is what they do.

constrains us to a box

Constraints are good. Be a scientist


Araith

whether the ubiquitous Rhino actually has a place in an Astartes army

With the idea that they are invincible shock troops who drop out of the sky, right.

You know, I think the idea of basing it in Insignium Astartes is that regardless of how they relate to other armies and what their biology is, we want all the different units to be able to do their jobs. It is not to do with how a marine army distinguishes itself from other armies, and more interested in how offices identify themselves within a Chapter.

Of course, Insignium Astartes is a hideous book and a complete waste of effort on part of GW, apart from whatever revenue beyond the recycled copy and a tiny art budget.

Edited by voi shet magir, 01 November 2011 - 11:57 PM.

[bannus]

The Ultramarines have 28 Librarians, and the Blood Angels over 26. This number is greater than captaincies and company chaplaincies combined, and most Librarians would not be given formal command responsibilities. If a Chapter deploys 4-5 armies, each one could have five librarians of various ranks. In third edition, all Independent Characters were placed in HQ, but really Librarians should be as much like Techmarines as they are like commanders.

Having 25-26 Librarians does not mean they would all take to the field all of the time. Under special circumstances - yes. Those special circumstances are already covered in the rules. I'm not saying that an independent elites option is out of the question - only that it needs to be evaluated for balance and fluff. Would such an alteration represent Space Marines more accurately than they are now?

It is a suggestion exploring "the rules/fluff relationship." Juniors would be upgrades to a proper HQ, who tote them around as advisers and counter-measures. They would almost be wargear, a squad upgrade for a Captain or Chaplain. I don't care about anything other than troops, though.

I don't recall any fluff where Librarians use other Librarians in this manner.

It is strange that you are trying to explain things to me. You don't need to do that; you can't, really.

Not as strange as this statement. Explanations are often necessary when different people are exchanging different ideas. It is how this forum has operated for years.

The current company champion is a confabulation and does not exist, I thought.

Which is why there is no Company Champion in this list - he has been moved to the Honor Guard. I couldn't eliminate him completely for commercial reasons.

Do you know what arbitrary means? It doesn't mean random.

Yes, I know - that is why I chose it instead of "random".

Can you describe what ld9 sergeants are meant to do to your army? Do you have a plan for them, an effect on the entire fielded army's performance? The line does not indicate that a squad in any way bereft without the exceptional leadership of their sergeants, that their performance depends on the individual with training in how to read a map.

If you think that leadership training is just how to read a map, then I can see why you have a hard time seeing the justification. I have explained the reasons before. You may not agree with them and that is fine.

god among the gods.

You get the same effect by giving captains two wounds and Masters three. More of one, actually.

There are multiple profiles in each category to give players the option of representing them as they see fit. So if you want a character with fewer wounds, you have that option.

Of course, you could be wrong. When the Chapter Master dies, do they go through another million candidates to be sure they have the best out of a million? They just appoint themselves a new chapter master, is what they do.

Yes they do. That method of selection differs from Chapter to Chapter, but the Chapter Master tends to be better than his rivals - so his profile reflects that. The Chapter Regent also reflects this in having a profile in between that of a regular Captain and the Chapter Master.

constrains us to a box

Constraints are good. Be a scientist

Science and art go hand-in-hand - and I so much enjoy thinking outside the box.

Of course, Insignium Astartes is a hideous book and a complete waste of effort on part of GW, apart from whatever revenue beyond the recycled copy and a tiny art budget.

In that case, maybe it would be better better if you step away from this project.

[voi shet magir]

Juniors would be upgrades to a proper HQ, who tote them around as advisers and counter-measures. They would almost be wargear, a squad upgrade for a Captain or Chaplain. I don't care about anything other than troops, though.

I don't recall any fluff where Librarians use other Librarians in this manner.

This is what makes it hard to communicate.

[Araith]

Okay then.

Pitching in on the discussion of profiles, here's a list I devised while getting back into codex designing while reading this thread a few weeks back. Up for consideration.

EDIT: I'm sorry the table has this weird tall black bar; I don't know how it got there, or what to do about it.

Unit profiles

	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Scout	4	4	4	4	1	4	1	8	4+
Battle Brother	4	4	4	4	1	4	1	8	3+
Sergeant	4	4	4	4	1	4	2	9	3+
Veteran	5	5	4	4	1	4	2	9	3+
Champion	6	5	4	4	1	5	2	9	3+
Chaplain	5	5	4	4	2	4	2	10	3+
Master	5	5	4	4	3	5	3	10	3+
Honour Guard	6	5	4	4	2	5	3	9	2+

The profiles of the battle brother shouldn't be much of a surprise.
The scout then; I'm not sure of the WS and BS of 4, but in contrast with guardsmen they already are some of the best fighters of their planet and presumably they've also had years instead of months of training before being sent into the field. There's no canon about that as far as I know, but it takes some time before the first implants settle in, and I guess they aren't already fielded during that time, needing at least the constitution of the Astartes to even keep up with the rest.
As for the sergeant; according to the Insignium in contrast with the 5th edition codex they aren't veterans from the 1st Company, but I think we can assume they are company veterans. A2 is a common method of representing that. As regards to the whole discussion of whether they should have Ld8 or 9, I've also thought about that and I'm on the side of 9, as you can see. Two reasons. For one, as already said I think we can assume they're among the veterans of the Company. I'm trying to distinguish here between the more experienced members of the Company and those veteran heroes of the Chapter that are invited into the 1st Company. Any way, as 'veterans' they will be steady themselves. The second reason is that they've received leadership training as sergeants. So both the 'internal' and the 'external' factors of the Leadership stat in 40k are strong in them; that's why I think Ld9 befits them.
Then I move on to another sort of veterans altogether: 1st Company Veterans. They're both veterans as in experienced soldiers and they're the best, most heroic men of the Chapter: the elite. The Ld9 is a result of that experience and heroism, and perhaps for some or even many of them, sergeant training from before their induction in the 1st Company. The WS and BS 5 then... that's a more radical idea. They are among the best fighters of the Chapter. They deserve it. Gamewise it also gives you an extra reason to take them next to the excellent selection of Troops we now have: with their skills, they will get the job done. They will probably kill what you send them against.

Then some more remarkable individuals.
First the Chaplain. Chaplains are in general veterans, some of the most reliable battle brothers, before entering chaplaincy. As such, Veteran stats befit them. A second wound reinforces both their die-hard character and game-mechanically their position as IC and leader of the army.
Then the Champion. Ld9 and A2 remarks him as probably one of the company veterans, but he doesn't deserve a second wound. What does remark him are his exceptional fighting skills: otherwise he wouldn't be a champion. Hence the top-notch WS6, BS5 and I5. Perhaps BS could be taken down to 4, but the high weapon skill and initiative are what's needed to set him down as a duelling champion. He's going toe to toe with the best enemy fighter, and hopefully kill him.
The Master then. What I denote as a 'master' is one of the masters of the Chapter basically; that includes the various Company Captains, the Chapter Master and other possible functionaries on that level. He's an all-round veteran, hero and commander. Veteran skills, W3, A3 and Ld10 are befitting him. He doesn't need WS6 because he's not necessarily the best fighter of the lot; that's not what he became Captain for.
Finally the Honour Guard, who may be the most surprising in stats. They're described as the oldest and best heroes of the Chapter, who've often been Company Captain or somesuch; they've seen it all and embody the Chapter. As such I do think they deserve the stats I've given them: basically Captain stats with one wound less (they're not ICs after all) and improved WS to denote their exceptional skill. They'd make great ambassadors, advisors and body guards.

That's it for now. I'm curious what you think of this.

Edited by Araith, 10 November 2011 - 01:30 PM.

[Oiad]

Araith, the 'black bars' come from putting a backspace at the end of any entry line. No worries you're not the only one with this problem. Bannus seems to suffer from it too.

Here's what your code should look like:

[table=Unit profiles][th][/th][th][b]WS[/b][/th][th][b]BS[/b][/th][th][b]S[/b][/th][th][b]T[/b][/th][th][b]W[/b][/th][th][b]I[/b][/th][th][b]A[/b][/th][th][b]Ld[/b][/th][th][b]Sv[/b][/th][tr][td=50%]Scout[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]1[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]1[/td][td=5%]8[/td][td=5%]4+[/td][/tr][tr][td=50%]Battle Brother[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]1[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]1[/td][td=5%]8[/td][td=5%]3+[/td][/tr][tr][td=50%]Sergeant[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]1[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]2[/td][td=5%]9[/td][td=5%]3+[/td][/tr[tr][td=50%]Veteran[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]1[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]2[/td][td=5%]9[/td][td=5%]3+[/td][/tr][tr][td=50%]Champion[/td][td=5%]6[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]1[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]2[/td][td=5%]9[/td][td=5%]3+[/td][/tr][tr][td=50%]Chaplain[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]2[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]2[/td][td=5%]10[/td][td=5%]3+[/td][/tr][tr][td=50%]Master[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]3[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]3[/td][td=5%]10[/td][td=5%]3+[/td][/tr][tr][td=50%]Honour Guard[/td][td=5%]6[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]4[/td][td=5%]2[/td][td=5%]5[/td][td=5%]3[/td][td=5%]9[/td][td=5%]2+[/td][/tr][/table]

Also, I have to disagree with your ideas, as with the Honour Guard. Such a profile with their current wargear choice would dramatically boost their points cost alone.

Edited by Oiad, 10 November 2011 - 11:06 PM.

[bannus]

Araith: Those profiles would force a significant change in points value for many of these units - possibly pricing them out of practicality. I can see why you would have the skills "progression" the way that you do (based on the skilled warriors of other armies). I deliberated what to do with Scouts myself (as you have) and in the end I decided to give players the option of two profiles - so they can choose which one best fits their "idea" of what Scouts should be.

Bannus seems to suffer from it too.

When you do the amount of editing and cut-n-paste that I do, it is bound to happen from time to time.

Edited by bannus, 10 November 2011 - 08:23 PM.

[voi shet magir]

Are you saying they should be be good because they are good?

Imagine, and you have done this in actuality, so it is not hard, that you want to improve the chainswords putatively wielded by assault squads and sergeants. The most reasonable rule for a distinct chainsword piece of wargear would be to allow it to re-roll failed wounds, as Araith has done. This imposes a complexity cost, since an army can have only so many rules and remain playable. It has to in some way make the army something it would not otherwise be. The single chainsword in a tactical squad would not affect the choices made for the tactical squad. The chainswords in an assault squad would not change the assault squad's role. The army has gained no more distinct identity than it would have otherwise had, but paid the complexity cost of a new piece of wargear.

It is possible that sometimes GW gets things right.

Five is a quantity greater than four. Even if ws5 squads were a meaningful improvement over ws4 squads, that does not make worth giving to veterans. Veterans with either skill are still used against hard targets, and in lower quantities. Their attacks, leadership, and wargear give them vastly different identities than other squads'. Skill stats do not affect those things.

This is why I ask about sergeant leadership. You haven't even addressed how an army whose troops have a single ld9 model is different than an army whose troops have only exceptional access to ld9. This entire dimension is absent from consideration, and it is really the only dimension. The discussion so far is deficient to the point of dysfunction.

--------


In third edition, all independent characters became HQ selections. This should not confuse anyone into equating Captains, Librarians, and Chaplains, in skill or responsibility, only on the basis of their latterly-shared slot. Their stat lines and wargear choices have at least been differentiated hero and supporting characters, and this is only appropriate.

Librarians are not commanding officers. Unless they are extremely senior, they would, in the same manner as techmarines, only be found accompanying and assisting command officers like Captains, senior Sergeants, and Chaplains.

[bannus]

The issue is we are dealing with a D6 system where the range is very limited. For WS, a 1 is incompetent, 2 could be considered averaged, 3 as trained, 4 as elite and 5-6 being very exceptional. Even with the armor value of vehicles, we have the same very limited range: 10 being nearly unarmored and 14 being considered the most impenetrable armor. So these small incremental changes are significant at every level.

While I am for small changes here or there, I do believe that the whole of the army shold keep very close to the profiles that GW has already provided for us.

[voi shet magir]

That isn't even slightly the issue. There is no possible basis for saying that a unit with so many black belts has such a weapon skill.

Assertions that a unit deserves this stat or this stat because they are compared to captains or they have special training aren't right, aren't wrong: they just don't even matter.

There is no reason to adhere to GW precedents, especially not out of poorly applied conservatism. If an entirely new codex were made on sound principles, it would look like GW codices. We would arrive independently at skill4 ld9 veterans, because they are correctly constituted. There are no "changes" to be made or avoided, because there is no reason to amdend a document that is not ours when we can produce a competitor, which happens to look the same because it does the same thing.

[bannus]

GW codices (and the profiles of the various characters/etc) have changed in various editions. So it is obvious that even GW has had different ideas at different times about the profiles of different characters. Comparing stats in a fictional game will be a matter of opinion and (of course) game balance. If Araith feels that certain characters should have different profiles, he is entitled to his opinion. Personally, I would not want to alter any profile as much as he suggests for game balance, but I still like to hear his reasons and justifications for his ideas. It may inspire some other idea - just like your ideas do.

[Oiad]

Bannus seems to suffer from it too.

When you do the amount of editing and cut-n-paste that I do, it is bound to happen from time to time.

Time to time? It happens in nearly every entry of your first set of posts.

Edited by Oiad, 10 November 2011 - 11:03 PM.

[bannus]

Yep, and that happens on occasion from repeated editing. I have painstakingly edited each and every table for you.

[angryswarmofbees]

I quite like Araith's reasoning with regard to the Honour Guard. Maybe not as good as he's made them but they should be better than the row of 4s they are now. Or they shouldn't be described as being so awesome. I know there's a big disconnect generally between the description of marines and their rules but I think the widest gap is with Honour Guard. Maybe they could all have the current Chaplain's stats? Or the option to upgrade some to this exalted position. And of course a hefty increase in points...