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About this Storm Raven:


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#1
Mike Somerville

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Brothers,
I usually spend my time on the "Army List" side of these forums. I have a keen interest in tournament lists and try to be generally helpful.
Over the last week or so of my perusal of army lists, I have noticed that players are beginning to include the Storm Raven in competitive, tournament lists.

Here is the thing, maybe I am missing something, but for a tournament list it appears that the Storm Raven is rather poor.
(For friendly games and from a fluff perspective I have no argument against it)
I think it is poor because of its Armor Value, duality, and cost.

I mostly see the Storm Raven being run as a transport for an Assault based squad (Terminators, DC, etc...) and a Dreadnought (DC, Furioso, Furioso Librarian)

The Storm Raven is only AV12. Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and Melta Weapons will destroy it a little more easily than they would destroy a Rhino.
The Storm Raven is not a Land Raider. I will grant the Storm Raven is faster, but it is far less survivable.

The Storm Raven comes with a good amount of weapons; 6 to be exact. (each Bloodstrike missile is a separate weapon) You can even add more guns to it.
I believe a player using it as a transport is doing him/herself a disservice. To make use of most of the weapons on the Storm Raven, you need to be moving 12 or less.
What are the guys inside doing? Hint: not assaulting.
Now, if a player want to use the Storm Raven as an assault boat to disgorge Infantry+Dreadnought, awesome. But you are sacrificing the multitude of weapons you possess to do so.
If a player want to use the Storm Raven as a gun ship, I think the Predator is a better buy (at almost 1/2 the cost and 1 more point of front armor)
It seems counter-intuitive to me to use the Storm Raven as a transport vehicle or as a gun ship. (Duality means you can use it as both)

The Storm Raven is pricey. (points and money-wise) You can purchase 2 Rhinos and 2 Drop Pods for less than the cost of a Storm Raven. (points-wise) The Rhino is marginally slower than the Storm Raven, but you get two of them. The Drop Pod is a safer alternative to getting Dreadnoughts up close. (though they cannot assault) It does not seem points effective solely as a transport.
Fully kitted, it is almost the cost of a Land Raider (which is more survivable to all weapons except melta and D-weapons) In my opinion, it seems too pricey as a transport or as a gun ship.

My conclusion is that when you sit down to make a tournament list don't just blindly include the newest GW kit. To me it seems, the Storm Raven is simply not that good.
But again, I may be overlooking some rule or build that makes it better. If so, I would like for someone to point that out.

-Mike

#2
Redfinger

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Mike,

I think you bring up some excellent points. I purchased a single SR kit, and one of the new dread kits, but I honestly dont think the SR will ever be fielded in a list of mine for many of the same rreasons you have indicated.

However, where I think people are making errors in using the SR is that fact that they are placing soooo much inside of it, putting a scoring unit and a dread in there can easily take up to 40-50% of your army in a single vehicle, not smart.....if I was to field a SR it would be bar bones, w/ EA possibly, and I would have a single dread in it,then if I was not going first, into reserves it would go, and even then if I did go first I would certainly place it as far as possible from my opponent and hold my breath while he tried to seize the intit....

I think a single SR could work in a tourney list if it had the proper support, more armor and dakka, that way if it was dropped your army is not crippled and you still have plenty of other support units....

I have been playing around with a list that actually uses tactical squads, RB, preds, speeders and a single SR, it is a fun list and I have found it suprisingly deceptive. Time will tell with the SR, but I think it is going to become a Landraider in that you will only get rock lists out of it. Which is a shame really....and it shows that GW really needs to make a more comprehensive armor system that involves hull points, but I digress....


Ashton

#3
Bartali

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It suffers from the same problems as the Land Raider really, a vehicle confused with it's role and paying far too high a price for an assault ramp and its special rules.

#4
igotsmeakabob!!

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I kitbashed a SR out of a valkyrie and some Whirlwind/Landraider bitz a while ago. On paper, I didn't really see the value of the vehicle... 200pts for 12 armor all around doesn't sound so fantastic.

Then I played a few games with it. These first few were terribly disappointing. I'd start it on the table regardless of who deployed first, and it would never survive past the second (if not the first) turn.

Then I played a few more games with it. I kept it in reserve if I was going second, and when I went first tore ass straight towards my opponent's lines with its payload of Assault Terminators and a TDA/SS Epistolary with an underslung Furioso Librarian. I made the majority of my cover saves with it, and thanks to tacking on extra armor it constantly made it to the enemy's lines, dropped off its charge, and then became a gunship.
Once that mini-unit of death is dropped, the enemy seems a lot more concerned with them than the SR, leaving it free of most anti-tank fire and it can fly about dispensing death. Sometimes it gets fragged but ah well, it did its job..
POTMS lets it move 24" and fire, which is quite sweet.

I learned its value (fragile but worth it) and am now planning a 1750 list with two, and a 2k+ list with three.

Edited by igotsmeakabob!!, 07 February 2011 - 03:29 PM.

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#5
JamesI

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I'm looking forward to testing a raven (I won't even get pick mine up until later today). And I think it will likely be something similar to the furioso librarian. A model I love to use in friendlies, but probably won't in tournaments.

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#6
BOBMAKENZIE

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For each of your negative points you are pointing out the positive. The storm Raven is a jack of all trades. Thats why its good. Thats what makes space marines good.

Armour 12 and Melta resistance add up to something that is disconcertingly safe up close (Considerably more then a land raider) Add into this the fact a raven can boost 24" and still fire a weapon and you've got a decent little zippy transport thats tougher then a rhino and can still fire a good gun.

It is also the fastest transport in our book.

It can give you alot of options. Ex: In my second game in a tournament this weekend I put a Devastator squad with Corbulo inside it so I could use them to close the gap with my enemy instead of hanging back and shooting. Which (if it werent for my own stupidity) would have easily won me the game.

The guns on it are also excellent. It can pump out around the same amount of fire as a nice Dev squad whilst moving 6" And that can be very handy (Ex: In the tournament I used it to take down Dreads in 2/3 games first turn. And then keep its contents safe for a round as it closed the gap)

TL;DR

The Storm Raven has lots of guns, transport cap and Speed. You might pay alot of pts for it but it gives you alot of options and can be a great flexible tool in a list. Space marines are good because they are so flexible. Eldar are Harder to play because they are so focused. Its this sort of ease to the balancing act that can make a Storm Raven a great addition to an army.
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#7
Rinion

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Also looking forward to making and using mine. People seem to either love it, or hate it, with most people using at least two in their lists! I've seen people say not to put too much into it, and others who make lists and put a bunch of stuff in both.

I don't think there'll ever be a definite Yes/no answer on this thing.

And igotsmeakabob!!, i'd planned something similar, with Assault Termies and a Furioso, only, i'm not sure on deployment. Assuming either A) you go first, ;) It survives untill your first turn, or C) It comes in from reserve, how do you unload the Dread and Termies? Move 24", jump out and pray you dont scatter/fail difficult terrain, with Wings on the Dread so it lands safely?

#8
igotsmeakabob!!

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And igotsmeakabob!!, i'd planned something similar, with Assault Termies and a Furioso, only, i'm not sure on deployment. Assuming either A) you go first, ;) It survives untill your first turn, or C) It comes in from reserve, how do you unload the Dread and Termies? Move 24", jump out and pray you dont scatter/fail difficult terrain, with Wings on the Dread so it lands safely?


If I'm going first, I stick it right on the edge of deployment. I race it up 24" and then just rely on my 4+ cover and extra armor to keep it alive and mobile. Next turn I move 12" and drop the boys off to assault thanks to the Ramp.

If I'm going second I keep it in reserve, then when it comes in basically do the same thing as above.

Edited by igotsmeakabob!!, 07 February 2011 - 03:58 PM.

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#9
Brother-Captain Lucius

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Brothers,
I usually spend my time on the "Army List" side of these forums. I have a keen interest in tournament lists and try to be generally helpful.
Over the last week or so of my perusal of army lists, I have noticed that players are beginning to include the Storm Raven in competitive, tournament lists.

Here is the thing, maybe I am missing something, but for a tournament list it appears that the Storm Raven is rather poor.
(For friendly games and from a fluff perspective I have no argument against it)
I think it is poor because of its Armor Value, duality, and cost.

I mostly see the Storm Raven being run as a transport for an Assault based squad (Terminators, DC, etc...) and a Dreadnought (DC, Furioso, Furioso Librarian)

The Storm Raven is only AV12. Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and Melta Weapons will destroy it a little more easily than they would destroy a Rhino.
The Storm Raven is not a Land Raider. I will grant the Storm Raven is faster, but it is far less survivable.

The Storm Raven comes with a good amount of weapons; 6 to be exact. (each Bloodstrike missile is a separate weapon) You can even add more guns to it.
I believe a player using it as a transport is doing him/herself a disservice. To make use of most of the weapons on the Storm Raven, you need to be moving 12 or less.
What are the guys inside doing? Hint: not assaulting.
Now, if a player want to use the Storm Raven as an assault boat to disgorge Infantry+Dreadnought, awesome. But you are sacrificing the multitude of weapons you possess to do so.
If a player want to use the Storm Raven as a gun ship, I think the Predator is a better buy (at almost 1/2 the cost and 1 more point of front armor)
It seems counter-intuitive to me to use the Storm Raven as a transport vehicle or as a gun ship. (Duality means you can use it as both)

The Storm Raven is pricey. (points and money-wise) You can purchase 2 Rhinos and 2 Drop Pods for less than the cost of a Storm Raven. (points-wise) The Rhino is marginally slower than the Storm Raven, but you get two of them. The Drop Pod is a safer alternative to getting Dreadnoughts up close. (though they cannot assault) It does not seem points effective solely as a transport.
Fully kitted, it is almost the cost of a Land Raider (which is more survivable to all weapons except melta and D-weapons) In my opinion, it seems too pricey as a transport or as a gun ship.

My conclusion is that when you sit down to make a tournament list don't just blindly include the newest GW kit. To me it seems, the Storm Raven is simply not that good.
But again, I may be overlooking some rule or build that makes it better. If so, I would like for someone to point that out.

-Mike




If you do not think it is competitive then these results show it is:

CORBY took a twin raven mech list to the biggest Irish tourney with 65-70 players and placed 17 with it. They were vital in his army as they transported 2 Furioso's and a 5 man TH/SS termy squad to the enemy lines which then proceeded to wreck havoc.

This tourney had most of irelands best players and he came 17 with his twin raven mech list.
 

#10
breng77

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The Storm Raven is only AV12. Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and Melta Weapons will destroy it a little more easily than they would destroy a Rhino.
The Storm Raven is not a Land Raider. I will grant the Storm Raven is faster, but it is far less survivable.


Not sure how you think its less durable than a Rhino. Against melta (in melta range) it is more durable than a land raider. (4 to glance, 5/6 to pen, not double dice, vs. 6 to glance, 7+ to pen on double dice. In addition the vehicle is likely to get a cover save from moving fast.

I'm not saying it is a great buy, I cannot see takinging one as I think it is too pricey.

#11
Red Fury

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Storm Raven - Drop Pod - Rhino = 115points
Combi-Pred = 135 points

Plus the SR is an Assault Vehicle.

Not a bad deal. Although possibly more dangerous because it is just one target compared to 3. Definitely guilty of "all your eggs in one basket" syndrome.

#12
Mike Somerville

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I am glad to see I am not the only one who feels this way!

@breng77: In the sentence you quoted, i meant that the Storm Raven is less survivable than a land Raider. My mistake for misusing pronouns.

@Lucius: Who/what is CORBY? I am unfamiliar.

@James, Bartali: My thoughts exactly.

@Redfinger: Yeah, losing ~700 points to one shot is hardly a recipe for success.

Anyways thank you guys for the discussion.


-Mike

#13
Black Orange

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The SR is very survivable in the right hands... it requires some tactics (ooooh that is such a dirty word ;) ). I have an article on the SR that should go up on BoLS this week so keep an eye peeled if you are keen on using the skimmer.

G :D

Edited by Black Orange, 07 February 2011 - 05:42 PM.

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#14
evileyevirtue

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Like (most) everything out there, it has its uses.

The armor value here is not even close to an issue. It's got better mobility, therefore comparing it to a Rhino, it's much better in every aspect. 12 all around, plus anti-melta makes it a whole lot more tough than, say, a rhino. It sure isn't a LR, but it is far more durable than any rhino chassis and you don't have to fear positioning it wrong (other than shooting).

The duality role... well that's what being a Space Marine is all about. Space marines are never great at doing anything, but are not bad at doing anything either, making them robust and flexible, but not overpowering in any single aspect. Hell, assault squads fall below almost all other armies out there, and that's supposed to be that unit's specialty. The SR multi-facet capability is what makes it fit into a SM army. You can also give it specific purpose, like a MM/LC, but then you have the issue with moving and firing all your guns. PotMS makes up for this quite a bit and gives it an added flexibility to not only fire a second weapon, but also at a second target. So it gives you choices and flexibility. PLUS it transports a whole lot.

The best use, IMO, is to take the SR to make a quick pass, drop some dudes off and zoom around as a support gunship. Plus, the thing is fast enough that, provided it survives, you can use it to re-deploy troops later in the game. It's a bit better build than the Valk for guard and has better options.

As for the cost, yes it is high. Obviously so. However, if you bought 2 DP's and 2 Rhino's, you don't get that kind of firepower and you lose your ability to redeploy latter in the game, especially with the DP.

One of the neat features of the Valk that I've learned from playing guard, is that you can use it to zoom around the table and take some pot shots and soften up an army before disgourging what's inside. Most people, especially considering the BA are assault oriented, want to jump right in as fast as possible, but with a little softening up first, you can minimize you SM weakness. Even when it comes to assaulting a mob of guardsman, it's a pretty good idea considering a commisar in a 20 man blob can easily hold off a 10 man RAS for between 2 and 4 turns. The last place you want to be is stuck in an assault, you want to be assaulting. The SR can give you the option and flexibility to choose where and when you assault, which is ALWAYS a bonus for you (unless you're choosing to multiple assault 2 DP's with warptime or something else silly).

This new option has its good and bad, but the flexibility is DEFINITELY not a bad.
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#15
Joasht

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Through my sheer theoryhammering (as I've not played nor seen one played) my qualms about it as I've indirectly posted in my other thread is the simple fact that its a lot of points in a not-very-tough basket. I can certainly see the practical applications of it, but very much like a Land Raider I think its best taken in pairs, which means you would probably need a bigger game, otherwise theres simply far too many eggs in two AV12 baskets for my liking. Based on my admittedly fairly extensive experience with Land Speeders (I love those things, heck, see my sig :D) I'm aware that a fast AV12 skimmer isn't AS soft as the paper would have you believe (I've had my AV10 speeders survive entire games unmolested....), but still, dice can always betray you XD

#16
breng77

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One of the neat features of the Valk that I've learned from playing guard, is that you can use it to zoom around the table and take some pot shots and soften up an army before disgourging what's inside. Most people, especially considering the BA are assault oriented, want to jump right in as fast as possible, but with a little softening up first, you can minimize you SM weakness. Even when it comes to assaulting a mob of guardsman, it's a pretty good idea considering a commisar in a 20 man blob can easily hold off a 10 man RAS for between 2 and 4 turns. The last place you want to be is stuck in an assault, you want to be assaulting. The SR can give you the option and flexibility to choose where and when you assault, which is ALWAYS a bonus for you (unless you're choosing to multiple assault 2 DP's with warptime or something else silly).


I think the issue with comparing it to a Valk or vendetta, is the points the SR is 70-80 points more expensive with no upgrades, and the squad inside is also more expensive. (a 5 man assault squad =10 vets, then if you take a dread you are way more expensive.

#17
Zid

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Ravens are pretty damn survivable honestly. With 90% of the meta using meltas as their only pure AT, the ravens pretty hard to tackle. Tack on the fact it works awesome in reserve or on the table.... its well worth the 200!

#18
Whitefireinferno

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Yep the raven is more survivable than people give them credit for they are immune to Melta's extra dice and Immune to Lance by virtue of being AV12 also comparing it to 2 rhino's and 2 drop pods is silly because hey why don't I give My opponent 4 kill points instead of 1? its worth it's points BUT it cant do it alone it needs other targets to take the Heat off. I will be running one with a Crusader both will have things they dont want getting Close and well one is AV14 and the other is Fast and hell I do not care if it becomes a pile of molten slag after it has dropped off its load If it get ignored after that its time to shoot things.

Best game plan for it is

#1 deliver pay load
then
#2 act as gunship
then
#3 continue #2 OR become slag while Mr Blenderfists and Such do their thing
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#19
Zhukov

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Ravens are pretty damn survivable honestly. With 90% of the meta using meltas as their only pure AT, the ravens pretty hard to tackle. Tack on the fact it works awesome in reserve or on the table.... its well worth the 200!

Well I'll leave the term meta alone (it's a myth :P ), but even then I'm afraid you must be playing in a relatively weak area then. Many, many good lists should include S7 and S8 weaponry along with meltas...

Examples:
-IG with quite some Autocannons, but also some S10 sometimes (Hydras being truly painful ofc)
-Wolves with lots of Missiles
-Chaos with Lasscanons
-Tau with S7 Pods + S10 railguns
-Vanilla Marines with Rifleman Dreads, Preds and Razors


All in all at the moment I'm tempted to agree with the OP, it doesn't seem all that competative to me at the moment. However I'm trying a bit now and then to make a list in which you can fully utilize the difference roles it can fullfill. (think about having a cargo which can work on their own if they want to: Jumppack troops and Libby Dreads jump to mind, things like that) That way it might no be an obvious target all the time or not that painfull when it does get killed... Using it as an empty Gunboat when it asks for that while rushing forwards with a cargo in some other game.

It should be clear that this unit requires the complete list being build around it; maybe even more so than with a Land Raider.

Edited by Zhukov, 07 February 2011 - 06:36 PM.

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#20
Godhead

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One raven will go down prob about 2nd turn at worst. A list that contains 2 to 3 ravens, and I don't think you'll ever get them all. Armor 12 isn't the Impenetrable fortress of doom that's a land raider, but it's definitely not a chimera with side armor 10 either. Even if you shoot it down, It really has already moved more than half the distance to your units with whatever cargo it was carrying. Now you have a threat in your back yard that must be dealt with while leaving the rest of your army relatively untouched for a turn or two.
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#21
Corby

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I am glad to see I am not the only one who feels this way!

@breng77: In the sentence you quoted, i meant that the Storm Raven is less survivable than a land Raider. My mistake for misusing pronouns.

@Lucius: Who/what is CORBY? I am unfamiliar.

@James, Bartali: My thoughts exactly.

@Redfinger: Yeah, losing ~700 points to one shot is hardly a recipe for success.

Anyways thank you guys for the discussion.


-Mike



I'm Corby ;)
The thing is , I've been using stormravens for quite sometime , taking them to tournaments etc, they do indeed die very fast , but by which time they'll be in your opponents face. I played a nasty mech guard list in the Tournament Lucius mentioned above , and niether of my stormravens made it past the first turn of guard shooting. Did that bother me? No , as the contents of both ravens were already within 12 inches of my opponents forces.

Mainly the stormraven's usefullness is its extended transport capacity for a dreadnaught and the speed of the vehicle. It only needs a single turn to complete its job , after which surviving is a bonus.


For reference , my list was the following:



HQ

Librarian. . Shield of Sanguinius and Blood lance powers 100pts


Elites

5 Assault terminators. 5 Thunder hammers / stormshields. 225pts

1 Furioso Dreadnaught /w extra armour and blood talons. 140pts.

1 Furioso Dreadnaught /w extra armour and blood talons. 140pts.

Troops

5 Assault Marines. ( removed Jump packs)with melta gun 165pts
Twin Linked lascannon razorback.

5 Assault Marines. ( removed Jump packs) with melta gun 165pts
Twin linked lascannon razorback

5 Assault Marines. ( removed Jump packs) with melta gun 130pts
Heavy bolter Razorback.

Fast attack

Baal predator with dozer blades and twinlinked assaultcannon turret. 120pts


Heavy Support.

Stormraven gunship with extra armour , twinlinked assault cannons and twinlinked Multi-melta 215pts


Stormraven gunship with extra armour , twinlinked assault cannons and twinlinked Multi-melta 215pts

Predator with autocannon turret , and lascannon sponsons. 135pts

Edited by Corby, 07 February 2011 - 07:07 PM.


#22
Black Orange

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I remember when people said the landraider Crusader is balls.

G ;)

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#23
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I remember when people said the landraider Crusader is balls.

G ;)

It is ;)


Discussing how competative a certain unit or list is will always be difficult... It depends for a great deal on what you would call competative and what not.

But it doesn't really matter; because you'll still get different opinions about them which shows other insights and ways you might be able to use it effectively. (and that should be the goal of dicussions in the end)

I'm open to messages again if you want help or advice from me.

 

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#24
Black Orange

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Weve got all these other players drooling over the SR while there are people here who have already panned it based purely on speculation and their own brand of theoryhammer... wow.

G ;)

No one can beat my Wu Tang Sword Style!

my 40k blog:

https://greenblowfly.../alan-seds.html - Terminus Est - Heresy Era Tactics - Lists - Modeling & Painting (Templar Construction)

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#25
Mike Somerville

Mike Somerville

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Nice to meet you Corby, and congratulations on your success with the list you posted.

-Mike




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