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Marine weapons with scopes on...


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#1
ShinyRhino

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So, Marines not only have biologically-enhanced vision (as well as other senses), but also helmets with in-built HUDs, tracking, etc that are powered by their armor.
So, why do Marine weapons need scopes?

Isn't that kind of like pointing the gunsights of your Apache helicopter into a pair of binoculars?
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#2
MalevolentPixel

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Okay, taking a logical look on things.

A Marine has a Helmet with a built in HUD, yet Battledamage and breaking of the Lens, may force the marine to remove his helmet completley. now, the Space marines are the ultimate soliders, efficent and prepared, having a scope on your weapon is a decent idea to me.

Also, space marine sight is enhanced, but in our army, the sights are used for reconasance. they are a tool. like a pair of bino's as you mentioned. so another reason a squad might have a scope in the squad.
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#3
Debauchery101

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i think that a scope would still greatly enchance to hit targets at long range but bolters arent long range so i never have seen the point. i think the helmets have a varied setup but i dont think either are really stocked with high zoom lenses except maybe devastators.
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#4
The Emperor's Champion

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Because the helmet's autosenses allow Marines to see through the scopes of their guns, regardless of if the Marine is holding the scope to his eye or not.
Marines can shoot from the hip nearly as accurately as if they were actually looking down the sights.
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#5
Lucien Eilam

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A regular scope would always give a better zoom than their helmet could, just because of the laws of optics. You'll notice in the real world, telescopes, telephoto lenses, etc. are lengthy and large devices. There's only so far you can compress optics and still do the job, and a helmet eyepiece is probably too far.

There are also a few references to the scope being linked to their armour, so they can switch their helmet view to a sort of gun cam, handy for shooting round corners, or with accuracy while moving. Some models (notably the Deathwatch), that's the only way it would work, because the scope is only open at one end with a cable at the other.
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#6
13skullz

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From my understanding, there is a camera set into the front of the bolter, right above the barrel, that is linked directly to the helmet, thus negating the need for any form of optic whatsoever. Also, considering the fact that there are more zooms other than optical zoom (cough cough, digital zoom), it would be totally an completely feasible to have magnification on both ends.
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#7
The Emperor's Champion

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Digital zoom < optical zoom
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#8
13skullz

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I know digital zoom is worse than optical zoom, and I never use it for my photography. However, in the future they might have Photoshop Creative Suite 9338 built in to super-enhance the picture quality.

All I'm really saying is that digital zoom is compact, thus throwing the need for optical zoom out the window.
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#9
OraIncognita

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i think that a scope would still greatly enchance to hit targets at long range but bolters arent long range so i never have seen the point.


What is long range? A boltgun most likely has a range of some 1000+ metres. I would reckon that they are fairly accurate at range too. A scope was most likely added just because children think they are cool and usefull.

#10
calgar101

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They're not actually laser sights but long range laser engravers so they can engrave nasty words on their enemies :tu:


#11
Xeonic

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Bolters aren't long range on the tabletop because then every game would be like playing Tau vs Tau.

As stated above, though the helmet autosenses are no doubt quite adequate at short/medium range, a scope could incorporate higher resolution, more sophisticated longer range optics, or types of vision mode not normally allowed for by helmet optics. In addition a scope could be used without the need for a helmet at all.
Likewise any small optics built into the bolter(there'd almost have to be, the iron sight backup is a joke) would be necessarily simplified compared to a huge and comprehensive full optics array.
Even if the optics zoom far exceeded the weapon range they would still be useful to have for spotting targets for heavy weapons, orbital bombardments, and etc.
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#12
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In the Imperial Armour books the classic large, clunky out-of-the-box type of scope is the 'dark-eye'. It is designed for unit marskmen, providing 'powerful' infrared for low light missions and improved magnification, but is described as a hindrance in close quarters, and must be disabled. It is stated to link up to the helmet's autosenses. In the Anphelion Project and probably elsewhere the boltgun itself is specifically stated as having a targeter which also connects to the autosenses. I love how the IA books flesh out this sort of thing, just brilliant.

I've always wondered about Deathwatch scopes, which are awesome designs. I don't seem to recall reading about them in the index astartes, despite their featuring in the deathwatch iconography and being so ubiquitous.

Edited by Schmitt., 11 February 2011 - 05:28 AM.

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#13
Ethrion

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Okay, taking a logical look on things.

A Marine has a Helmet with a built in HUD, yet Battledamage and breaking of the Lens, may force the marine to remove his helmet completley. now, the Space marines are the ultimate soliders, efficent and prepared, having a scope on your weapon is a decent idea to me.

Also, space marine sight is enhanced, but in our army, the sights are used for reconasance. they are a tool. like a pair of bino's as you mentioned. so another reason a squad might have a scope in the squad.


This is very true. In almost every 40K book the marine removes his helmet either because he got annoyed with it (his hair got itchy) or it got damaged. Scopes on the bolters allow for this inevitability.

#14
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Helmets aren't Heroic.

This is why Marine Sergeants, Imperial Guard Officers, and the majority of Adepta Sororitas don't wear them.

Hats - in the case of They Who Must Not Be Named - are plenty heroic, however, from Jack Sparrow's floppy cap to Nelson's tri-corner.

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#15
Kitchen Knife

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Helmets aren't Heroic.

This is why Marine Sergeants, Imperial Guard Officers, and the majority of Adepta Sororitas don't wear them.

Hats - in the case of They Who Must Not Be Named - are plenty heroic, however, from Jack Sparrow's floppy cap to Nelson's tri-corner.


To me, taking of the helmet is like begging to get shot in the head :D

Maybe, in the good old times, the bolters had scopes, because they made a massive use of silenced bolt shells for sneaky sniper action. Nowadays it's just there, because the techmarines and the mechanichus are afraid to remove them and making the weapon spirit cranky....
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#16
husi2100

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Helmets aren't Heroic.

This is why Marine Sergeants, Imperial Guard Officers, and the majority of Adepta Sororitas don't wear them.

Hats - in the case of They Who Must Not Be Named - are plenty heroic, however, from Jack Sparrow's floppy cap to Nelson's tri-corner.


To me, taking of the helmet is like begging to get shot in the head :D


and your sargents wearing a red helmet is better? :D

its like saying, hey! im the leader, kill me!
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#17
Br0ther Rafen

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I would probably go with the optical zoom over the digital zoom argument, magnification is so much better through a scope then it is in digital.
But the thing that really bugs me... why bother asking?
I mean, scopes are one the most awesome and cool things in 40k. It's like turning your assualt rifle into a sniper. It's just pure, unmitigated awesome.
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#18
OraIncognita

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Helmets aren't Heroic.

This is why Marine Sergeants, Imperial Guard Officers, and the majority of Adepta Sororitas don't wear them.

Hats - in the case of They Who Must Not Be Named - are plenty heroic, however, from Jack Sparrow's floppy cap to Nelson's tri-corner.


To me, taking of the helmet is like begging to get shot in the head :)


and your sargents wearing a red helmet is better? :)

its like saying, hey! im the leader, kill me!


There are plenty of examples where "leaders" have chosen not to wear a helmet in the field of battle. And the opposite too.
Personal preference.

#19
ShinyRhino

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Interesting points, all. I wasn't aware of the linkup between autosense and scopes, etc. I was operating under the impression that it was a simple optic scope, like the one I have my my rifle at home. Any sort of overlay over my eye (paint a HUD on your shooting glasses or something) would not transfer through the optics, and would in fact be a hindrance.
But, the laws of sci-fi and Rule of Cool (which trumps all explanations anyways) win :HQ:
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#20
WingsOfTheFalcon

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I think this is probably a case of digital zoom vs. optical zoom.

You can only enhance an image so far with a small (helmet) lens before the image loses sharpness. When you want a clear image at longer range, larger lenses are required i.e. a scope.

#21
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#22
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Both the Barrett .50 and the WA2000 feature that smiley face cap cover in the CoD game MW2.. Incidentally is that an M14?
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#23
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Or the scopes put a reticle on the hud, where the bolters pointing, that's where the reticle is?
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#24
Alys

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Scouts and non helmeted marines seem to use scopes, so it seems likely that they are a redundant system.

The thing I wonder though is, is it really needed? The Bolter is practically a machine-RPG. I'm no sure what the effective range is, but on slugs that big, it mustn't be able to do long range that well.

Maybe they are throwbacks. Bolters that are older, before the targeting hook-up was perfected, and like the armour, they are exonerated. These ancient glass scopes are as much a part of the history of the gun, as the scrollwork and carved grips.
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#25
Hellios

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Scouts and non helmeted marines seem to use scopes, so it seems likely that they are a redundant system.

The thing I wonder though is, is it really needed? The Bolter is practically a machine-RPG. I'm no sure what the effective range is, but on slugs that big, it mustn't be able to do long range that well.


Well some seem to be set up as sniper rifles (stalker pattern and so on).