34 replies to this topic

[Sister Acacia]

Sorry 7eal, I know you don't like people making new threads willy-nilly, but it needs to happen... and I'll make sure to keep it updated based on latest info.

So, here's what we have from the old dex:
They're accurate shooters (twin-linked) who are also one of the best close combat units due to WS 4 I 4 and 2 CCWs each, along with their special H&R.
They are a favourite for some people, with the mobility, Leadership-boosting effect, reliable shooting and deep strike
But it Tank Edition, people tend to just take Dominions because Immolators
Also the cost could probably, if Assault Marines are an indication, do with lowering a bit
Taking the VSS is even more of a no-brainer than usual, so (as with all units in this) we might as well just make them an automatic part and include the cost
They can be seen as Celestians with Jump Packs, in a way

So we could be looking at something like this, to pull it off the top of my head:

SERAPHIM SQUAD

Seraphim

Character	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Veteran Superior	4	4	3	3	1	4	2 (3)	9	3+
Seraphim	4	4	3	3	1	4	1 (2)	9	3+

Seraphim {Fast Attack}..........90 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Jump Infantry	1 Veteran Superior 4 Seraphim	Power Armour Frag Grenades Krak Grenades Jump Pack 2 Bolt Pistols The Veteran Superior counts as having a Simulacrum Imperialis	Adepta Sororitas Stubborn Faithful (1 Faith) Double-Tap Seraphim Flight Angelic Visage	None

Flavour Text Goes Here!

Seraphim Flight: Seraphim are such experts at diving in and out of combat with their jump packs that they gain the Hit & Run USR. However, they do not have to roll, the Hit & Run is automatic. It is the same as the USR in all other respects.

Double-Tap: Seraphim excel in pistol-based shooting. As such, any Pistol weapons wielded as a pair may be fired twice, just as though they were Assault 2 weapons. The exception is a pair of Hand Flamers, which are instead fired as a Flamer. In close combat, they could as two close combat weapons (the bonus is already provided in the stat block above, in brackets).

Options:
Up to five additional Seraphim may be taken for +17 points each
The entire unit may take Melta Bombs for +5 points per model
Up to two Seraphim may exchange their Bolt Pistols for:

• Two Hand Flamers for +10 points
• Two Plasma Pistols for +15 points
• Two Inferno Pistols for +20 points

The Veteran Superior may exchange both of her Bolt Pistols for:

• A pair of Blessed Chainswords for +15 points
• Two Hand Flamers for +10 points
• A pair of Neuro Whips for +15 points
• Two Plasma Pistols for +15 points
• A Sororitas Assault Glaive for +15 points
• Two Inferno Pistols for +20 points
• An Eviscerator for +20 points
• A Blessed Weapon for +25 points

Possibility:
The unit may be joined by one Seraphim-Hospitaler for +25 points. She uses the profile of a regular Seraphim, but has Narthecium (granting the entire unit the Feel No Pain USR) and wields a pair of Needle Pistols that use the following profile: 12" S X AP 5 Pistol, Poisoned (4+)

Possibility: there was a previous idea of allowing various units to take a Mistress (because, IIRC, "the mini looks awesome"). It's one of the advisor-like attachments for Erelim, I suppose with a bit of converting they could be added to Seraphim (who can benefit from a CC specialist). You are now picturing a flying jellyfish with deadly tentacles just floating along for people to get caught in.

If this is an option, we're probably looking at "May add a Mistress for +30 points" (give or take - and that means the maximum unit size becomes 11). She has a Mistress statline (including Feel No Pain or an Inv. save depending on what people decide they like - and Ld 10 to give the unit), her usual gear, Frags, Kraks and a Jump Pack. She would then probably bestow Rage or something on the whole unit and might be allowed to swap her whips for an Eviscerator or a Power Stake.

Edited by Sister Acacia, 18 February 2011 - 10:20 AM.

[Furyou Miko]

The Ld boosting ability is Angelic Visage, and doesn't work on the squad itself.

They just get a baseline +1 Ld. Heh.

Don't know about the Mistress. Never really liked it as much as everyone else seems to, though. Plus, I find dual whips frankly ridiculous even in power armour.

Especially with a cloak to tangle them in. >>

That and the floating jellyfish is waay too chaos for my tastes.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Hmmmmm, I might just borrow the "floating jellyfish = chaos" idea for a project of mine. Quick question - what is the Sororitas Glaive? Haven't seen mention of that before. Cost lowering for jump infantry is important/necessary, with the boost of the survivability of troops in transport in 5th, the mobility of jump troops is less awesome, and they're comparatively a lot more fragile.

Couple of thoughts - one potential use/strong image I see of the Seraphim on the tabletop would be charging an enemy assault unit, holding it in place until the end of the opponent's assault phase, then hit and running out to leave it vulnerable to shooting. The two problems with that is their less than reliable Hit&Run due to so-so Initiative, and the fact they'll be minced in short order by dedicated assault units. So, in addressing these issues we could fall upon their image/fluff as very graceful, skilled and agile Jump Troops who specialize in Hit&Run tactics - granting them the ability to re-roll Hit&Run rolls (less odd for a human than I5), and granting them a 4+ "Dodge" invulnerable save in close combat, a la wyches (I know that sort of save seems a bit odd on a model that isn't a superagile elf, but it might be jussstttttt plausible on the agile, skilled jumppacker). This would give them a pretty unique/useful purpose in the army.

Also, perhaps let them purchase meltabombs individually, instead of all-or-nothing for the entire squad? (Perhaps also allow them to consolidate if the bomb destroys the vehicle as they flit away from the explosion behind them).

They're one of those models/concepts that's really characterful, having suitably colourful rules seems almost a must to me.

[Sister Acacia]

Thanks Miko, I didn't have my Codex on me.

Okay then, flying jellyfish is out.

Sororitas Glaive: 2-handed Power Weapon, strikes at +1 S (so, S 4), has a built-in Bolt Pistol (for firing, not the extra attack) and grants the Counter-Attack USR. It was vaguely decided on for Celestian Spears/Blades.

The one that I typed up there was 17pts each (with +10 for the VSS). A sight cheaper than the 22 each they previously had, yet still more expensive than Celestians. Probably needs fiddling.

I'm not sure about the Dodge thing - worth debating though - but just re-rolling H&R is a lot more palatable. And yeah, using them to tie enemy units down, whittle away at them then leap off for shooting to occur sounds like a fantastic role.

Melta Bombs: should we make them individual? Sounds like a pain to keep track of (well I suppose WYSIWYG fixes that, and gluing a melta bomb to the side of a Celestian is hardly a major conversion exercise).

[Chengar Qordath]

I would personally lean against a dodge-based invulnerable save for Seraphim since Spirit of the Martyr gives them plenty of capacity for tarpitting elite units. Rerolling Hit and Run seems like a good idea though; it gives them a nice added degree of flexibility.

Also, the Seraphim Unit entry probably needs to have a description of the Gun Fighters rule included, since it's fairly important to how they function.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

D'oh, I'd completely forgotten about Spirit of the Martyr. That would make the dodge save pretty redundant/pointswaste, plus, it would add some opportunity cost to the strategy.

Glaive sounds to be good weapon idea, /approves

As long as WYSIWYG is adhered to, the Meltabombs shouldn't be much of an issue. Having them bought per model for the entire squad would make the cost become prohibitively high, since they wouldn't really need that many meltabombs to guarantee the target's destruction (unless they're trying to meltabomb a skimmer that's gone flat out or somesuch, or a superheavy). If it is kept as a "whole unit" upgrade, then perhaps take a page from Imp. Guard Veterans and have it as a single price for the entire unit, regardless of size (and at a slight discount from buying them per model, since many of them would be redundant).

Actually, I'd forgotten to post my thoughts on the Neurowhips apart from the chaos quip - I think they could potentially be an interesting upgrade (although having a mistress in a non repentia unit seems strange, just offer the whips as a weapon upgrade). A flying torture device sounds right up the Hereticus' alley, really.

If neurowhips are in a squad, perhaps it can inflict D6 wounds/pinning test on the enemy unit when the Seraphim Hit&Run, representing them whip wielder dragging the whips over the enemy as the Seraphim jet away? (I'm obviously a bit inspired by the recent improvements to Dark Eldar Reavers.) Characterful, and supports the potential role of slowing down enemy assault units.

I think that Seraphim need these sort of quirky, specialized rules - I can live with a Marine Assault squad's sole purpose being "We Hit People", but I sorta feel that the Seraphim (and other Sisters units) should be a bit more complex than that.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 14 February 2011 - 07:10 AM.

[Furyou Miko]

I'm getting flashbacks to Red Alert 3's Rocket Angels with all these "flying women with whips" comments (The RA3 unit are women in jetpack power armour, armed with a multiple rocket pod and a Paralysis Whip, which is basically a laser that stops enemy units from doing anything).

On the other hand, I DO like the idea of them inflicting damage on the 'run' part of 'hit and run'. Perhaps giving them a 'free shot' at a unit during their Hit and Run? Just one shot each (I don't remember if Seraphim Gunfighters allows twin-linked firing, or two shots at the moment. I'm a proponent of two shots).

Heh. Seraphim are supposed to be multi-taskers extraordinaire, so how about something like the Long Fang's fire control ability to let them split their shots? Less super-effective because of the short range of most pistols, and especially their anti-tank pistols, but still useful and characterful.

Regarding meltabombs, I'd rather take it as a flat-point upgrade for the squad rather than a 'per model' or 'at x points per model' upgrade. They're an organised, elite fighting force, not a motley mob of improvisers with mixed gear.

Edited by Furyou Miko, 14 February 2011 - 10:10 AM.

[Oiad]

Looks good. Hit & Run seems like a good USR addition, fits in with Saint Celestine. A few other points:

• Like 'Qordath mentions above, it would be good to get a description of what Gunslingers actually is, or at least refer to it elsewhere as it's not a USR or part of the Sister's overall rules.
• Excuse the naivety, where exactly does the (S4) come in from?
• I think their Initiative is good for H&R. A 'dodge' ability speaks to me of units capable of hitting I6 and above - thus capable of showing such quick reflexes.
• Meltabombs = upgrade only, imo.

Keep up the work!

Edited by Oiad, 14 February 2011 - 03:28 PM.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Quoting from the talk on the Battle Squad discussion:

Gunfighters: The squad may the Strength value of its pistols when fighting in close combat in addition to the benefit of fighting with two weapons. Special weapons instead count as power weapons.

It's a good fix for making Sisters assault units actually intimidating in assault without bumping the price too much (note that the special weapons functioning as power weapons swing at S3). (Oiad - I think this is where the profile's S4 is coming from. It would probably be better to have the profile display their sans-special rules strength of 3, though).

Thoughts on the pricing for meltabombs for the whole unit: for the Imp. Guard Veterans, the doctrine upgrade "Demolitions" provides the entire squad of 5-10 models meltabombs and one demo charge for a flat rate of 30 points. The demo charge is priced at 20 points for the lower BS special weapon squad, so we could possibly confer that the meltabombs were worth solely 10 points - however, seeing as this sort of "package deal" tends to have a points discount, and Seraphim are much more adept at catching up to vehicles, I'd bump the price for upgrading the entire squad of Seraphim to have meltabombs to a flat rate of 20 points (a price which would equate to buying about 4 on a per model basis, however, 4 meltabombs would be more than enough to waste most vehicles. Additionally, having an identical upgrade on every model in a squad has a lower "per model" value than upgrading a few not only due to the overkill aspect, but due to the fact that there are no meatshields for the special weapons - the squad will start losing the special weapon upgrades immediately).

Ah, but do the Rocket Angels believe so hard that their bullets become extra armor-piercing? :P

I think currently their dual pistols are simply twin-linked, which is the typical way of handling it, but I'd personally be open to the idea of switching it over to two shots (it's not without precedent, dual-wielding Avengers Exarchs can pull off the same trick). It's something I'm personally undecided on.

I'm not sure on the splitfire idea and free shots from the entire squad when hit&running, though. They seem like more of a "scalpel" unit than a saturation fire unit when in their shooting phase, and splitfire is one of the more uncommon, highly regarded abilities, which should only really be given out to a unit whose theme it matches pretty much exactly. Of course, these thoughts are largely dependent on my personal "image" of the unit, so take with a grain of salt. My concern with the free shot when hit&running is primarily a balance one. In most situations, it's only really beneficial for the Sisters player to hit&run during the opponent's assault phase, as leaving assault immediately before the opponent's turn would leave the Seraphim very vulnerable. Since they will mainly be leaving assault immediately before the Sisters' movement/shooting phases, the ability to take a free shot at the enemy unit, immediately followed by the Seraphim's normal shooting phase would be a bit much. (I know a similar argument could be applied to the "hit&run whipping" random suggestion, but that would only be a few wounds from one upgrade, not from the entire unit, so it would be a bit less intense.)

Also, Acacia, would you mind if I posted that "Avenging Angel" jump infantry concept I mentioned in the main project thread (or just PMed the profile to you to place in the first post), changing this thread to a Sisters jump-infantry thread? It would lower the clutter of threads on the main board, and I don't think there'd be too much confusion (plus, working on the two jump infantry units [assuming the angels are accepted, it's bit of a kooky idea] side-by-side would help us focus on how they'd coexist in codex).

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 14 February 2011 - 06:40 PM.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Internet was acting iffy, I guess it sent the post off 3 times?

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 14 February 2011 - 06:38 PM.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

This is just silly. Sorry 'bout this! If someone with post-deletey powers could cut these out, it would be awesomesauce.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 14 February 2011 - 06:48 PM.

[Chengar Qordath]

Regarding meltabombs, I'd rather take it as a flat-point upgrade for the squad rather than a 'per model' or 'at x points per model' upgrade. They're an organised, elite fighting force, not a motley mob of improvisers with mixed gear.

Not to mention that it would make it easier to cut the point cost for them down to something that people would actually be wiling to pay for on a semi-regular basis. As it currently stands, melta bombs at 5 points per model are probably going to be one of those "standard" options that kind of has to be in the list, but which almost every player will ignore.

[Furyou Miko]

Well, back in the day... (heh), Seraphim were a fire saturation unit. They'd use their jump packs to get into range, fire both their pistols (at a -1 to hit penalty, or as a flamer... or, if they were feeling REALLY suicidal, they could get into hand flamer range and fire both hand flamers. Hand flamer range was about 4", by the way.) then kite back just outside charge range, continuing to shoot. Then they upped everything's charge range when they switched over to a flat movement system (once apon a time, units had a 'movement' score, usually 4", that they could double when attempting to get into CC) that increased assault ranges without increasing pistol range. At the same time, they switched Seraphim over to twin-linked (because they had a shiny new rule and wanted EVERYTHING to use it!), basically crippling the unit. They added melta-pistols and hit and run to try and tip the scales back the other way a little when they released the current codex, but it was too little, too late.

So... original incarnation Seraphim:

Ranged combatant, use mobility to stay ahead of enemy counter-attack. Purely anti-infantry.

Current incarnation Seraphim:

Surgical combat strikes, then use Hit and Run tactics to slow enemy units and open them up to shooting.

[Chengar Qordath]

I've always found it slightly curious that my side project of divergent Sisters actually wound up bringing the Seraphim a lot closer back to their original roots by making them much more firepower focused, as opposed to the Inquisition project's boosting of their cc prowess for a more balanced unit.

[Sister Acacia]

Well, making them especially shooty could be done, but it would also be a little weird, for pistol-wielders. A possibility however.

So, do we like "The whole squad" for +20 (meaning ~4 each, with better savings for each extra one you take, just in case that Bastion REALLY NEEDS 10 Melta Bombs this round)?

And yeah, perhaps it's best not to have a motley assortment where one has a Melta Bomb, one has a Frag, one has a Krak, one has a Defensive, one has a Swooping Hawk Grenade, one has Gas Grenades (Imperial Armour), one has a Haywire Grenade, one has Psyk-Outs, one has a Vortex grenade etc.

I'll add in the Gun Fighters rule in a moment. Basically it's "If you dual-wield pistols you fire them as Twin-Linked* and for Bolt Pistols or Hand Flamers, strike at S 4 in close combat. Plasma Pistols strike at S 3 as Power Weapons, and Inferno Pistols at S 4 as Power Weapons."

And I have no qualms with Avenging Angels being added. Go ahead and post them.

*We could consider making it double-tapping instead.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Gunfighters
Personally, I think that just having Bolt pistols = S4 attacks, special weapons = S3 power weapons would be better, simpler. Handflamers aren't cheap enough to make it over powered (and there's precedent for flamers set a close-combat setting have power-weapon status in Burna Boyz), and Plasma is already seen as eh next to melta, devaluing it further wouldn't be great. (Thought: Maybe they could strike at their natural strength, and as power weapons, in the assault phase IF they have not been fired in the shooting phase? Blatantly ripping from Burnas, I know, but still a viable approach).

Avenging Angels/The Memetim
This unit's an interpretation of the "Avenging Angels" (alt. less corny name "The Memetim") from the Sisters' Dawn of War appearance, glowing, ghostly, winged apparitions of either the souls of dead sisters or a coalescence of the army's faith. Basic purpose: quirky assault jump infantry unit.

Avenging Angels

Unit	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Avenging Angel	4	4	3	3	1	4	2	10	-/4+

Avenging Angels {Fast Attack}.......... 95 points

Unit Type	Unit Composition	Wargear	Special Rules	Dedicated Transport
Jump Infantry	5 Avenging Angels	Close Combat Weapon	Adepta Sororitas Fearless Faith Embodied Souls of the Fallen Fury of the Fallen	This unit cannot take a transport.

• May include up to 5 additional Avenging Angels: +19 points per model

Faith Embodied:
At the beginning of each of the owning players movement phase (or beginning of game, perhaps?), they may select one Act of Faith for the Avenging Angels squad to benefit from.

Souls of the Fallen:
Avenging Angels always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike, even in missions that do not normally use these rules. Avenging Angels may not be joined by any independent characters other than Saint Celestine. When joined to a squad of Avenging Angels, Saint Celestine benefits from the Souls of the Fallen special rule.

Fury of the Fallen:
Keep a count of all allied models with the Faithful Adepta Sororitas special rule killed. At the start of each of your turns, consult the table below to determine the effect of the Fury of the Fallen. From the beginning of that turn, all models with the Fury of the Fallen are affected by these cumulative bonuses:

Casualties Effect
1-4 None
5-9 All units with Fury of the Fallen have Fleet.
10-14 All attacks from units with Fury of the Fallen ignore Armour saves.
15-19 All units with Fury of the Fallen have +1 S.
20+ All units with Fury of the Fallen have a 3+ Invulnerable Save.

Edited by Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer, 16 February 2011 - 09:41 PM.

[Furyou Miko]

As a supernatural uber-unit, I'd give them S/T4. In DoW, after all, their main ability is "I'm invulnerable and a high priority target", after all. They're mostly a distraction to lock enemies in close combat while the rest of the army shoots at them. That doesn't work in TT, but...

Also, that's a lot of Faithful casualties required for their special abilities. Or are we calling all Sisters Faithful and you don't mean Faith Inspiring, which is what we have instead of the old Faithful?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Yeah, by "Faithful", I meant the special rule we've been using in this project that seems to be applied to every Sisters model. Then again, changing it to specify the "Adepta Sororitas" special rule would be less confusing (but it would have the curious side effect of the death of an Avenging Angel potentially empowering the rest. Does make some sense I guess). Still, the casualties required might be a bit high even then, it's something that can be fiddled about with (It's mainly the mechanic of them becoming stronger/more capable the more sisters are martyred that I'm into than any of the specifics).

An older writeup I made of the unit had S/T 4, but that was before the "Fury of the Fallen" idea - I'd bumped down to 3 when the +1S option was added. Still, you have a point - T3 4+ inv save is a bit too fragile for a unit that in its original appearance was indestructible (although the change can be tidily explained away - many more Sisters are slain in a game of DOW than on the tabletop, by the time Avenging Angels would appear in game Sisters casualties would be well above 20), T4 standard might be a good answer. I'm trying to avoid having the stats be too impressive, though, due to the combination of the "Fury of the Fallen" and the "Faith Embodied" rules (these combined miiiight be a bit of a special rules overload, and Faith Embodied would probably be the first to be dropped, but I am rather fond of it due to its tie-in with them being a manifestation of Faith).

[Oiad]

Gunslingers
It seems like y'all having problems getting this one to work within the confines of the weaponry provided.
Having both the bonus at distance (twin-linked) and the power in assault is enticing. Surely it is really going to boost the cost of the unit.

For assault, I say try to keep it consistent. Use the strength value of the weapon regardless. To balance it out, upgrade weapon costs would have to go up on the squad imo as your paying for both a stronger weapon at range and a stronger on in cc.

Avenging Angels/ The Memetim
Is Memetim meant to be the feminime of Memitim? I'm always impressed by people who share an interest in Angelology. A few outsider ideas & suggestions:

• Invulnerable Save - Giving them a 3++ save from the start would fit better with the concept of the dead - similar to Legion of the Damned.
• Ahh, the freebies - Their Faithful embodied ability and Fury of the Fallen ability together as double bonus modifiers seem too OTT. Just keep them as a faithful unit.
• Fury of Fallen - An idea for keeping it even more simple - something akin to Power through Pain came to mind. They'd gain the following USRs for each faithful unit destroyed:
  • 1 Units = Fleet
  • 3 Units = Furious Charge
  • 5 Units = Feel no Pain
    Of course they don't have to be those USRs or those unit amounts. Mix-'n'-match to whichever you prefer.
• Souls of the Fallen - Not feeling the character specifics, even for Saint Celestine. Disallowing all ICs from joining could knock off a few points considering all the bonuses they already receive. Anyway, if you're a Saint you should be honourable enough to respect the dead more so.
  In keeping with Legion of the Damned style traditions you could allow to re-roll any scatter dice instead.

As a supernatural uber-unit, I'd give them S/T4. In DoW, after all, their main ability is "I'm invulnerable and a high priority target", after all...

I've never understood the fascination with side-projects that turn Sororitas into cc-specialising Space Marines?...

Edited by Oiad, 15 February 2011 - 10:15 PM.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Gunslingersfighterswhatever
The cost of the assault boost is something to consider, the main reason I suggested the Burna Boyz-style option for special weapons - the drawback would make the price increase fairly low.

Still, S3 power weapons are only valued at 10 points, so the cost increase wouldn't be too horrible.

That the Seraphim have seemed to travel from having a shooting focus to a shooting/combat focus is curious, but I suppose makes some sense - since their weapons are 12" range or less, if their shooting doesn't eradicate a unit (which it likely won't, due to limited number of shots), they'll be in charge of the enemy unit in the following turn. While on solution would be to simply leave that as their drawback, that they should be carefully used to pick off smaller, weakened units or vehicles, making them decent on a charge is also fairly entertaining/allows for more aggressive play. This miiiight be affected by the models look, the angelic gunslingers firing away in close combat is a pretty strong image.

Inv. Save
Not having auto-3+ has two origins in my planning - avoiding making them too costly, and the image of them becoming more "solid", having a stronger tie to the physical plane.

Faithful
Switching to faithful would probably be a good change, yeah.

Fury of the Fallen
A power through pain-type set-up could potentially work, it would be slightly simpler, but there's one advantage to the Epidemus-type set-up; units needn't be entirely eradicated to provide the benefit to the unit with the rule, thus if the controlling player is careful enough to avoid having many units being totally removed the Memetim can still benefit (Dark Eldar don't need this benefit since they mainly gain Pain Tokens through close combat - they'll either destroy or be destroyed once the combat commences, so they're fine with gaining powers by number of units destroyed). While the simplification present in power through pain is necessary for an army wide special rule in which each individual unit has its own "score", but any units Memetim would share the same score.

Souls of the Fallen
My main thought on allowing Celestine to join them was that in DOW, the unit is actually summoned to the field by a Living Saint. Dunno about closing her off from them, even if having an SC referenced in a unit rule is kinda odd.

Plus, should be relatively easy to keep track of - just use each slain Sisters model as a marker (placed off-gameboard) to keep track of the count.

[Furyou Miko]

Actually, in Campaign at least, the Avenging Angels are summoned by the Canoness, not the Living Saint.

Oiad - it's not that I'm trying to make "the sororitas" into cc-specialising Marines. It's that the Avenging Angels in particular were represented as primarily being Hard To Kill, hence the toughness boost. As for the Strength, I don't really know why I put that in. To stop them suffering from Banshee Syndrome, I guess.

[Sister Acacia]

Hmm, so, would we like to change Seraphim back to their shooting style? There are different ways to go about this of course - and it would also involve removing the melee part of Gunfighters at the least, as well as reducing Close Combat weapon options. Examples:

• Let them fire paired pistols twice
• Let them shoot once when using H&R
• Let them count any paired pistols as the regular version (Bolt Pistols -> Boltgun/Storm Bolter, Hand Flamers -> Flamer, Inferno Pistol -> Melta Gun, Plasma Pistol -> Plasma Gun) for better range
• If the above is done, consider changing them from Jump Packs to Jet Packs - they could move (or not), shoot out to 12" and then jet back 6", keeping them 18" away, outside of move+charge range (and requiring a very lucky fleet).

[Chengar Qordath]

Well, I would say it depends on whether we want to put the emphasis on mobility or firepower when it comes to Seraphim. Letting them shoot their pistols twice would certainly fit with how GW has handled some other recent double weapons like Typhoon and Cyclone Missile Launchers, and would make them a pretty potent close-range shooting unit. Of course, I might be biased since that's what I did with OotFB.

[Furyou Miko]

Shooting!

Shooty shooty shooty...

*cough* Sorry. It's just that they're iconic.

[- 7eAL -]

Hmm, so, would we like to change Seraphim back to their shooting style? There are different ways to go about this of course - and it would also involve removing the melee part of Gunfighters at the least, as well as reducing Close Combat weapon options. Examples:

• Let them fire paired pistols twice
• Let them shoot once when using H&R
• Let them count any paired pistols as the regular version (Bolt Pistols -> Boltgun/Storm Bolter, Hand Flamers -> Flamer, Inferno Pistol -> Melta Gun, Plasma Pistol -> Plasma Gun) for better range
• If the above is done, consider changing them from Jump Packs to Jet Packs - they could move (or not), shoot out to 12" and then jet back 6", keeping them 18" away, outside of move+charge range (and requiring a very lucky fleet).

Presented with these possibilities, then my personal preference is to reinforce the shooting style. I agree this would remove the close combat effects of the Gunfighters rule, and reduce close combat weapon options. I would suggest firing paired weapons twice, as Chengar Qordath has indicated is more common with double weapons with moderate to low Strength and output.
I disagree with having paired pistols count as the next size up, because they are functionally not too different from Vanguard with jump packs, because their standard armament is a boltgun. Streamlining would dictate that, in order to eliminate unnecessary special rules, we would replace the Seraphim wargear with a boltgun, bolt pistol and close combat weapon. I also disagree with having paired pistols count as the next size up because they are not visually representative of the distinctive and beloved models. If hand flamers no longer count as the next size up, then I would elect to fire twin-linked using the stats of the hand flamers in the Blood Angels codex, as firing twice may simply cause too many hits under the template.

Because short range is a concern, I believe the best choice is to allow Seraphim to pass Hit and Run Initiative tests automatically. They can retain the present style of attack: shoot, charge, weather enemy Assault phase, automatically pass Hit and Run, and do something else.