Stoneface Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Just because i'v written the Space Marines as heartless in this doesn't mean i see them being quite this bad outside of combat, or that the entire imperium is this dark. Indeed if i did then the imperial officer in the peice would not have been shocked at all, and their would have been no reason to write it. I personally get bored of the uber "there is no hope" take on the 40K universe, and i love that in the Eisenhorn books there are essentially nice planets. Having said that i hate how camp the Space Marines are in the majority of B.L. books now. They wonder around dispensing macho one liners, back talking to their superiors and slapping each other's thighs...or maybe that was another book... My point being, there has to be a balance between the uber dark depressing side of 40k where no one cares, and the reality light B.L. books where the Space Marines are just annoyingly macho. Oh, and with the whole dog of war thing i was trying to hint that they dont act like a standing army, rather they roam the galaxy fighting where they see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Scout Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Again I'm not saying don't write this or even you shouldn't write that. I don't care that some of you see marines as zealots, or cold blooded murders. As many of you have pointed out this is fantasy, it is not a social experiment or Europe in the 1940's. I just wonder why anyone making up a story feels the need to have humanities heroes slaughtering children. Not only do I think it is out of character I think it is unnessicary. Much like over done violence in tv crime shows or second rate horror movies, some people enjoy this others don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoneface Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 "I just wonder why anyone making up a story feels the need to have humanities heroes slaughtering children." You seem to be missing the point Lone Scout, its SUPPOSED to be horrible, not for being horrible's sake, but becasue i DONT think the space marines are flawless heroes. I want the people who read it to go "damn...i suppose if i, a normal person, saw a space marine doing what they do, i'd think they were horrible". Its like the SAS or the Navy Seals or whatever, many people believe they protect us and democracy ect ect... but if you showed those people how they went about protecting us they might be horrified. You understand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terminatorinhell Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I liked this point of view, I bet Iron Hands are even crueler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenguard2010 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Again I'm not saying don't write this or even you shouldn't write that. I don't care that some of you see marines as zealots, or cold blooded murders. As many of you have pointed out this is fantasy, it is not a social experiment or Europe in the 1940's. I just wonder why anyone making up a story feels the need to have humanities heroes slaughtering children. Not only do I think it is out of character I think it is unnessicary. Much like over done violence in tv crime shows or second rate horror movies, some people enjoy this others don't. Not to take a pop here mate, but I don't think anyone particularly enjoyed the idea of infanticide Lone Scout. Stoneface has put that in there purely as an example of the horrors that occur in the 41st Millenium, and to paint Marines in a light that we're not entirely familiar with in order to shake things up a little. I think that there would be no enjoyment derived from it on the marines part, quite the oppposite with any loyalist marine. However, Astartes would indeed carry orders like these out if it was deemed necessary, for example in the interest of stopping the spread of deep rooted heresy etc, would they not? To the observer, yes, this would seem callous, but consider an Exterminatus; billions of children die in these situations. You seem to have an over idealised vision of Space Marines as pure and just. Whilst I'm sure every loyalist chapter strives to that ideal, they would doubtless encounter grey areas such as these where orders conflict with morality. Sure, these are humanties heroes but more often than not, heoroes in literature and films are flawed.. Can I suggest you look a bit deeper into the other attrocities that are constantly portrayed in 40k. Again and again we are presented with harrowing imagery such as crucifictions and skulls impaled on spikes.. And that's often before Chaos even get's a proper look in! If you're of the mindset that THIS is over done violence, then what do you make of the depictions of attrocites commited at the hands of Chaos? Or even the twisted Dark Eldar who derive sadistic pleasure in inflicting unimagineable pain and suffering.. Surely the sheer saturation of stuff like this in the real fluff outweighs the example of attrocity in this fan fiction? This is the harrowing vision of the future that is Warhammer 40,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 There was a piece of fluff a long time ago that had an IG lieutenant watching a BA assault squad tear through a heretic's dwelling, emerging covered in gore and meat. The IG lieutenant saluted the BA sergeant, but could barely hide his revulsion as the marine seemed completely unaware of the impact the gore was having on the "normal" human guardsmen... Or not quite... It was a Mordian Sergeant who had had to give up trying to take a bunker filled with heretics and take cover behind some destroyed vehicles. A BA asault squad and Captain turned up, told the IG sergeant that they would take care of it, and he might have suggested that he doubted that they would. The Captain was rather miffed at this, slaughtered the Heretics, then came back and growled at the IG sergeant (who could tell that the Captain was still itching to kill things - and presumably was wishing he hadnt suggested that the marines would struggle to take the bunker). I think its fair to say that the Cpatain knew what effect the gore might have, but really didnt care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Scout Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yeah I realise what is being written and why and I don't care if the SM enjoy it or not. If it had been DE killing them it would be no more enjoyable or correct or grim dark. I just stated that it wasn't to my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Fisting Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Murdering children to stop the spread of Chaos is pure and just in the eyes of an Astartes. 40K may not be the right cup of tea for anyone that finds this idea disturbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 @Stoneface - The little peice you wrote is fantastic and obviously to some, quite emotive, just how real writing should be. Great work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firenze Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 This is how I see marines now that Ive played for 8 years. Ruthless, cold, but also smart, and are reasonably normal outside of combat. Many marines dont hesitate to carry out orders. I made my marine chapter think for themselves (to a stronger degree than more codex chapters), something that makes them troublesome and feared by authority. Less hypno therapy does that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 i still very much disagree that an ultramarine would shoot unarmed children.. if you disagree with my assertions feel free to post some quotes from established fluff.. and im not talking exterminatus here, thats a whole different ball game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Innocence proves nothing. Edit: well, let me elaborate. Imagine this Ultramarine didn't kill those children. They grow up, the moment of a loyal astartes killing their mother (who might only have been hysterical, not a heretic) forever on their minds. They become heretics, defying the IoM and helping a force of chaos marines or a daemonic incursion to take their homeworld. Sure, this does not have to happen, but it might. And because it might, not killing these possible future traitors would be heresy. If the IoM kills 10.000 innocent children for every future heretic it slays before he can cause harm to humanity, that is a very low price to pay. And the IoM will always rather pay that price than risk losing worlds or even sectors to a traitor they did not kill because he might have been innocent. And while Ultras may be on the more humane side of space marine mindsets, they will certainly not risk the continued existence of the IoM just to save a few possibly innocent children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Augustine Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I liked this point of view, I bet Iron Hands are even crueler. Oh without a doubt. As for our friend Stoneface here... Bravo Good Sir. Very well done, and you accomplished exactly what you set out to do. Personally I don't care to see Marines depicted this way, but that doesn't make it any less likely (read: probably true). Definitely caught my attention there. Also, Yay Controversy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Innocence proves nothing. Edit: well, let me elaborate. Imagine this Ultramarine didn't kill those children. They grow up, the moment of a loyal astartes killing their mother (who might only have been hysterical, not a heretic) forever on their minds. They become heretics, defying the IoM and helping a force of chaos marines or a daemonic incursion to take their homeworld. Sure, this does not have to happen, but it might. And because it might, not killing these possible future traitors would be heresy. If the IoM kills 10.000 innocent children for every future heretic it slays before he can cause harm to humanity, that is a very low price to pay. And the IoM will always rather pay that price than risk losing worlds or even sectors to a traitor they did not kill because he might have been innocent. And while Ultras may be on the more humane side of space marine mindsets, they will certainly not risk the continued existence of the IoM just to save a few possibly innocent children. No, as i said unless you can prove the ultramarines have done it in the past its all suppostion, it is stated in Ultras canon that they are pro-life.. they would kill all armed enemies and leave the inquisition to sort out the rest.. they are soldiers not judge, jury and excutioners. tbh i dont like this attitude that all soliders are child killers, even in the year 40,000 some chapters would be above that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_POINTED_STICK Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I feel an Ultramarine would shoot unarmed children but he'd feel bad about it. Not in a "Maybe we're the baddies" Mitchell and Webb sense but in a half realized subconscious "I await the day when such ugly work will no longer be needed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GooseDaMoose Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 This is sooo gonna turn into an "are Ultramarines awesome" debate.. You should have picked another chapter, like the Dark Angels or Imperial Fists :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 gc08: You cannot just say "no" to an opinion. Also, in my opinion, to deny that any loyal space marine would kill possible traitors the second he has the chance to, whether they be heavily armed madmen, a hysterical woman, children or hamsters, means to not understand the absolutely dystopian and actually fundamental "kill or be killed" baseline of 40k. Obviously, if you prefer to consider your chosen chapter the good guys, I cannot stop you from doing so, I even understand the desire. But there are no good guys in the version of 40k that GW sells. And that's why I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wysten Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 That, is how I imagine space marines. Perhaps not quite the ultramarines, but I believe that in that case, of potencial future heretics, a ultramarine/any marine would have killed him to just cross off a potencial future threat. No marine kills for the sake of killing, but they, the Marines recongise what it is to be a Marine and while more humaine marines, like the Ultramarines, Salamanders and Space Wolves won't kill for the sake of it, they will put all heratics and possible hertics to the blade, if they kill a kids parents who are rebels, then they kill the root of future heresy as every Marine hates a heretic that turns his back on the all father. No matter the age, but will defend the just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 whether they be heavily armed madmen, a hysterical woman, children or hamsters... The Hamsters would be targeted first, being Xenos heretics and traitors :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Also, I might add that "leaving the inquisition to sort out the rest" would be more cruel than just killing them. The inquisition certainly will, only they might torture them first to find out whether they know any other children whose parents died in the rebellion. Then they'd kill those, too. And by the ethics of 40k, they'd even be right. I think it was inquisitor Kryptman who said something along the lines of "Anyone asking whether we have the right to kill billions of innocent by exterminatus doesn't understand what we are fighting here; in fact we have no right to let them live." If you don't understand why this makes sense, then we do not need to continue this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Black Shadow Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I remember when 40k dimgrark was tongue-in-cheek and humorous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 gc08: You cannot just say "no" to an opinion. Also, in my opinion, to deny that any loyal space marine would kill possible traitors the second he has the chance to, whether they be heavily armed madmen, a hysterical woman, children or hamsters, means to not understand the absolutely dystopian and actually fundamental "kill or be killed" baseline of 40k. yes i can when that opinion has no basis in fact... i have stated again and again that the ultramarines are depicted as beng pro life, even going as far as to sacrifice themselves to defend the citizens of the imperium.. without proof the children are heretics and assuming they are unarmed i see no reason to assume they would pull the trigger. you can give your opinions all you want, but without proof they carry no weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Priest Haelaeif Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 What would you consider proof? You seem so desperate to be able to believe that there were good guys in 40k, I don't think you'd accept any reasoning, because you seem to have made "Ultramarines are the good guys" a dogma, and dogmas cannot be argued, except a point-blank range. So can I cite any official source explicitly stating that Ultras would kill children whose guilt is not proven? No, I certainly cannot. But I have known the 40k-verse for 20 years now, and that "innocence proves nothing" statement sums it up very well. There is no in-dubio-pro-reo principle in 40k, there is "if you are not sure whether someone is heretic, better be safe than sorry (ie kill them)". Innocence is not a concept that the IoM can do such a lot with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Opinions don't carry weight. An argument carries weight, backed up by logic and fact... An opinion often flies in the face of logic or fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 What would you consider proof? You seem so desperate to be able to believe that there were good guys in 40k, I don't think you'd accept any reasoning, because you seem to have made "Ultramarines are the good guys" a dogma, and dogmas cannot be argued, except a point-blank range. So can I cite any official source explicitly stating that Ultras would kill children whose guilt is not proven? No, I certainly cannot. But I have known the 40k-verse for 20 years now, and that "innocence proves nothing" statement sums it up very well. There is no in-dubio-pro-reo principle in 40k, there is "if you are not sure whether someone is heretic, better be safe than sorry (ie kill them)". Innocence is not a concept that the IoM can do such a lot with. "innocence proves nothing" is an inquisition saying, and yes those guys would pull the trigger.. but the whole ultramarines (courage and honour) are the good guys is a picture given to us by those who write the fluff.. its hardly my opinion when its clearly written in the ultramarines novels that to let innocent people die for no reason goes against thier beliefs. personally i think going into the whole child killing aspect of the background is wrong and disturbing.. as a family board i honestly beleive you guys are taking it too far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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