The True Astartes

[Dinks]

@greatcrusade - Can you stop turning this into a discussion about how "pro life" a chapter is or is not? Instead of belittling and picking apart someones work, how about you actually give Stoneface credit for writing what is actually a very well written short.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

It isn't me who is marketing this game to 8-year-olds. I think it should not be sold to anyone under 16.

 

I think your idea of 40k is rubbish, gc08, but hey, since my opinion is not important to you, you need not mind that. Have fun with what you like about 40k, I'll continue to consider space marines fundamentalist (or insane in the case of SW) mass murderers.

 

And exactly that idea of 40k was very, very well represented by the OPs short story.

[greatcrusade08]

@greatcrusade - Can you stop turning this into a discussion about how "pro life" a chapter is or is not? Instead of belittling and picking apart someones work, how about you actually give Stoneface credit for writing what is actually a very well written short.

first of all, if i find a piece of work to be factually incorrect ill say so.. if you dont want my opinions dont post the work up asking for them.. i have been polite to the OP thus far, so ill appreciate you not trying to do the moderators job..

 

It isn't me who is marketing this game to 8-year-olds. I think it should not be sold to anyone under 16.

 

I think your idea of 40k is rubbish, gc08, but hey, since my opinion is not important to you, you need not mind that. Have fun with what you like about 40k, I'll continue to consider space marines fundamentalist (or insane in the case of SW) mass murderers.

 

again alot of your arguments are coming down to "you think"... "your opinion"

my idea of 40k is based on facts rather than opinions, i have already stated some chapter and the inquisition probably would pull the trigger, just not the ultramarines.

if you want to argue this provide quotes..

 

oh sorry you cant :)

because they dont exist

[Darkchild130]

the children of heretics are heretics by default, whether by bolter or blade those kids would die.

 

Darkchild

[Dinks]

my idea of 40k is based on facts rather than opinions

Well if your going down that route... the official line from GW is that nothing in the fluff is fact, it is all propaganda.

[greatcrusade08]

again alot of your arguments are coming down to "you think"... "your opinion"

my idea of 40k is based on facts rather than opinions

Well if your going down that route... the official line from GW is that nothing in the fluff is fact, it is all propaganda.

 

ok ill see your statement and raise you a

"if nothing is fact why are we allowing people to write about killing children on a family forum?"

 

of course i could counter with a statement on what canon is, especially considering we are discussing the actual background here..

 

edit: the argument here is not whether the inq or SW would pull the trigger, the OP clearly stated it was ultramarines 3rd company.. and ultramarines dont kill unarmed children, if there is a chance of thier loyalty being in question, other IoM forces would deal with them.

if the whole world is beyond saving = exterminatus

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Edit: Sorry, posted something mildly insulting and thought better of it. Have fun.

[Darkchild130]

edit: the argument here is not whether the inq or SW would pull the trigger, the OP clearly stated it was ultramarines 3rd company.. and ultramarines dont kill unarmed children, if there is a chance of thier loyalty being in question, other IoM forces would deal with them.if the whole world is beyond saving = exterminatus

 

Why? Why wouldn't Astartes do it?

 

Darkchild

[greatcrusade08]

edit: the argument here is not whether the inq or SW would pull the trigger, the OP clearly stated it was ultramarines 3rd company.. and ultramarines dont kill unarmed children, if there is a chance of thier loyalty being in question, other IoM forces would deal with them.if the whole world is beyond saving = exterminatus

 

Why? Why wouldn't Astartes do it?

 

Darkchild

 

becuase astartes arent police, they are hit and run specialists.. if the kids are unarmed and not a threat they wont kill them.. the tidy up is done by pdf/imp guard, it is at this point that thier loyalty would be questioned

[Crimson Fisting]

gc08: Why so concerned with this being a 'family' forum? Besides, nothing in this post is in need of censoring... Regardless of whether your average Ultra would kill children, the 40K-verse is still uber violent and I'm of a mind that anyone who's into the hobby enough to peruse forums about it know this and wouldn't have 40K any other way. It's not Star Trek. It's not pretty. It's not nice. It's dark. It's bloody. It's horrific. We'd have it no other way.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

becuase astartes arent police, they are hit and run specialists.. if the kids are unarmed and not a threat they wont kill them.. the tidy up is done by pdf/imp guard, it is at this point that thier loyalty would be questioned

 

(emphasis mine)

 

But they are a threat. That's exactly the point. I think that's our main reason we are having this discussion. I agree that UMs would not kill children that are no threat. Neither would they kill adults who are no threat. But these children are one. They might be heretics. They might be touched by whatever evil force had also touched their mother. And even if they weren't, they might start hating the IoM for killing their mother. You say "fine, leave them to the inquisition" - but the marine can't make sure they won't hide and get away with it if he leaves them now. He has no other chance of stopping the possible threat they pose but to kill them. He can't just stay there and watch these children for the rest of the war.

 

gc08: Why so concerned with this being a 'family' forum? Besides, nothing in this post is in need of censoring... Regardless of whether your average Ultra would kill children, the 40K-verse is still uber violent and I'm of a mind that anyone who's into the hobby enough to peruse forums about it know this and wouldn't have 40K any other way. It's not Star Trek. It's not pretty. It's not nice. It's dark. It's bloody. It's horrific. We'd have it no other way.

 

I like.

[Dinks]

But they are a threat. That's exactly the point. I think that's our main reason we are having this discussion. I agree that UMs would not kill children that are no threat. Neither would they kill adults who are no threat. But these children are one. They might be heretics. They might be touched by whatever evil force had also touched their mother. And even if they weren't, they might start hating the IoM for killing their mother. You say "fine, leave them to the inquisition" - but the marine can't make sure they won't hide and get away with it if he leaves them now. He has no other chance of stopping the possible threat they pose but to kill them. He can't just stay there and watch these children for the rest of the war.

True.

[Darkchild130]

But they are a threat. That's exactly the point. I think that's our main reason we are having this discussion. I agree that UMs would not kill children that are no threat. Neither would they kill adults who are no threat. But these children are one. They might be heretics. They might be touched by whatever evil force had also touched their mother. And even if they weren't, they might start hating the IoM for killing their mother. You say "fine, leave them to the inquisition" - but the marine can't make sure they won't hide and get away with it if he leaves them now. He has no other chance of stopping the possible threat they pose but to kill them. He can't just stay there and watch these children for the rest of the war.

 

This, they are a threat.

 

Consistently in the fluff, people are killed just for being in close proximity to heretics, for risk of taint. This is no different.

 

Darkchild

[greatcrusade08]

your just not getting it.. "might be a threat" is not good enough to warrant killing a child.. ultramarines dont kill children who arent proven heretics..

also rememebr that many 'enemy' soldiers although called heretcis actually arent.. they are simply following the orders of ciorrupt governors and officers etc.. we have seen it many times in BL books (again supporting evidence).. killing thier children would be stupid.

 

ultramarines dont kill anyone that doesnt deserve to die.. period

 

gc08: Why so concerned with this being a 'family' forum? Besides, nothing in this post is in need of censoring... Regardless of whether your average Ultra would kill children, the 40K-verse is still uber violent and I'm of a mind that anyone who's into the hobby enough to peruse forums about it know this and wouldn't have 40K any other way. It's not Star Trek. It's not pretty. It's not nice. It's dark. It's bloody. It's horrific. We'd have it no other way.

then you havent understood anything ive posted, perhaps some reading glasses would help.

ive stated twice already that i agree some chapters and the inq would do it.. the point is whteher ultras would, becuase thats what the story entails.

as for family forum, you dont have to agree, but im a family man and dont particuarly want to hear about the killing of children if its not necessary

[Crimson Fisting]

Back at their fortress-monastary the Marines busy themselves with rocking some kumbaya around a campfire while holding hands and swaying.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

"might be a threat" is not good enough to warrant killing a child

 

In the real world, yes. In the real world, nothing warrants killing anyone, in my opinion. But we are not talking about the real world. In 40k, even the slightest chance that someone could be a heretic does warrant killing them on the spot, because if he is one and they didn't he might kill humanity.

 

 

also rememebr that many 'enemy' soldiers although called heretcis actually arent.. they are simply following the orders of ciorrupt governors and officers etc.. we have seen it many times in BL books (again supporting evidence).. killing thier children would be stupid.

 

ultramarines dont kill anyone that doesnt deserve to die.. period

 

That is contradictory, except if you want to express that UMs won't fight rebel militia because some of them might not actually be heretics but only following orders.

 

Btw: nobody deserves being killed. UMs do kill. So?

[greatcrusade08]

Back at their fortress-monastary the Marines busy themselves with rocking some kumbaya around a campfire while holding hands and swaying.

 

now your just being obtuse

 

That is contradictory, except if you want to express that UMs won't fight rebel militia because some of them might not actually be heretics but only following orders.

 

Btw: nobody deserves being killed. UMs do kill. So?

your purposely being difficult too, you know full well marines kill rebel militia, anyone who faces them in battle is their enemy.. children hiding unarmed and potentially innocent victims are far from being enemies

[Dinks]

I think you fail to grasp the idea of a heretic in the 41st millenium

 

"Every man, woman and child throughout the Imperium carries within them the twin seeds of our defeat. The unstable gene is a mutant beast waiting to erupt; the unstable thought a Heretic Apparent. The Mutant bears his Heresy on the outside; the Traitor hides his in his soul. Trust no one! Fear all! Any one of your fellows may carry the Mark. The Will of the Emperor alone cannot protect you. You must be strong! You must join the crusade and take your place in the unceasing struggle!" - GW

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Back at their fortress-monastary the Marines busy themselves with rocking some kumbaya around a campfire while holding hands and swaying.

 

I prefer Hallelujah, the Leonard Cohen version, as sung by Jeff Buckley.

[Darkchild130]

@great crusade

 

And you are trying to twist established fluff to suit your own ideas. Imperial guard just following orders would be exterminated to a man for opposing the imperium.

 

As would the civilian population that supports them.

 

Its grim dark for a reason.

 

Darkchild

[greatcrusade08]

I think you fail to grasp the idea of a heretic in the 41st millenium

 

"Every man, woman and child throughout the Imperium carries within them the twin seeds of our defeat. The unstable gene is a mutant beast waiting to erupt; the unstable thought a Heretic Apparent. The Mutant bears his Heresy on the outside; the Traitor hides his in his soul. Trust no one! Fear all! Any one of your fellows may carry the Mark. The Will of the Emperor alone cannot protect you. You must be strong! You must join the crusade and take your place in the unceasing struggle!" - GW

 

 

AGAIN as ive stated its not my failing thats the problem here, 40k is bloody and horrible i get it.

the issue here is the failing of you guys to understand the edict of the ultramarines.. courage and honour, every one of the imperiums citizens should be protected if possible..

 

@great crusade

 

And you are trying to twist established fluff to suit your own ideas. Imperial guard just following orders would be exterminated to a man for opposing the imperium.

 

As would the civilian population that supports them.

 

Its grim dark for a reason.

 

poppycock.. the world of pavonis in the nightbringer novels, rebel PDF forces are defeated, even though supported by cartels.. they werent wiped out...

civilian populations who supported the enemy werent killed... funny that.. i must be twisting the words in the book

[Crimson Fisting]

I'll give you that the Ultras are more understanding when compared to some other Chapters, but they're still genetically engineered brainwashed killing machines, their sole purpose being the protection of Mankind through any means necessary. The deaths of millions are acceptable to protect billions. In 40K the end definately justifies the means.

[Darkchild130]

They stopped being worthy of protection when they turned from the Emperor's light.

 

Darkchild

[ravenguard2010]

It's all based on opinions anyway really seeings as 40k doesn't actually exist. It's as grim or as light-hearted as you want it to be. But my question is this now, what if he had replaced Ultramarines with another chapter... say one succeptable to certain 'outbursts' shall we say, like the Flesh Tearers. I'm no authority on them, but I'm sure I recall actual background material about them actually slaughtering innocents.

 

I think the issue here is the reputation of the Ultramarine chapter. I've read a couple of Ventris books but I got the feeling that it is Uriel's belief, and his captain's before him, that the Ultramarines be perpetually noble and moral etc. I'm not sure it was the belief of every marine in the whole chapter. That said, I'm aware BL books are just the author's representation of the 40k universe, you can make your own minds up. I personally believe absolutely anything goes in 40k, and as a slightly tangential example of that just check out some of the Slaaneshi themed stuff that gets published! Some of that would make your hair curl! Family friendly ?? I think not.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

Back at their fortress-monastary the Marines busy themselves with rocking some kumbaya around a campfire while holding hands and swaying.

 

now your just being obtuse

 

But he has avalid point. Marines - ALL marines - are genetically engineered killing machines. They exist to destroy the enemies of humanity. That's all the people who might pose a threat to humanity. Like those children. Marines are not happy-go-lucky people who love each other and secretly want to be gardeners or hairdressers. No, UMs aren't, either.

 

That is contradictory, except if you want to express that UMs won't fight rebel militia because some of them might not actually be heretics but only following orders.

 

Btw: nobody deserves being killed. UMs do kill. So?

your purposely being difficult too, you know full well marines kill rebel militia, anyone who faces them in battle is their enemy.. children hiding unarmed and potentially innocent victims are far from being enemies

 

I am being difficult? You ignore everything we say when it does not fit your views. Have you answered me about these children being a threat? No, you have not. Yes, they are one. In the position of that space marine, there is no way to know whether they will destroy humanity.