Darkchild130 Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Another opinion.. I might be off, but I'll chuck it in. The beginning of the IA comes across as 90% mystery 10% fact. Spell it out a bit more I reckon. At least give me a name or something. Other wise its that crazy UNNAMED chapter master.. And his UNNAMED sergeant. the sergeant will get a name then, the chapter master will not. there is a valid reason he is not named, he shamed himself and the chapter. The origins are supposed to be mysterious though, that is deliberate. I can understand why one guy was saying the IA needs a WHY. I kinda agree. Like if you said in the speech to the new recruits. "Our cousins are trapped by tradition and arrogance, we are not. Every action you take from this day forward will be dedicated to victory and its achievement. Nothing else is of worth, not honor nor glory nor acclaim. Only victory..." Then you would establish why these guys do things the way they do. IE because they only care about winning. Because right now they just seem to do it for no reason, because in the fluff honour bound chapters are winning 90% of their battles too. So what would be the justification for their practices.. this is brilliant, I'm stealing this ;) I thought it would be clear that my chapter is all about winning from the "duty and death" they literally care about nothing else. but obviously not. I am surprised these guys don't call themselves Chapter 466. No icon etc is pretty no nonsense. I dont really like the "null" part of their name. Null Blades symbolises (to me) a weapon you dont know exists or was never even there, capturing the Astartes ethos of attacking without warning to smash the enemy entirely. I could change it back to Chapter 466, with only the 1st company veterans called the Null Blades, but I'm not dropping the name entirely as I like it. tell me what you think Duty and Death sounds pretty cool. thanks! 2cents Your advice is excellent. While I've got MMA training tonight and will not be able to update, I will factor your suggestions in at a later date. @Ecritter: I agree, and was thinking of changing it to a black stripe running down the entire left arm of each battle brother, a reminder of an old battle where the "Null Blades" (honour guard) formed a 'Thin black line' of defence against a traitor horde. As it is one of the very few times they have suffered a 'heroic last stand' (still hate those events), they chose to commerorate the act with an armour marking. what do you think? Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogi Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 If you like the name keep it. Your explanation gives it meaning. Glad you like what I wrote.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Daeger Helsir Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'd like to say, it's possible for these fellows to have an atheistic, rational approach to things without being dogmatic or deluded about it. Atheism in the sense of "Lalalala demons don't exist" is bad, because that philosophy helped caused the Horus Heresy. However... it's perfectly valid to have your marines be atheists in the sense that they do not credit the Ruinous Powers or their servants as 'gods.' Instead they are simply the most understandable and predictable aspect of the Immaterium, explainable by a simple premise; mankind has beliefs, these beliefs are mirrored in the Immaterium and interact with the warpstuff in a manner which creates malevolent entities. Therefore your Chapter can acknowledge that Chaos exists yet deny it its divinity- even the stoutest Ecclesiarchal preacher will not deny that the Chaos Gods are gods; he will merely say that they are evil and vile gods who must not be allowed to tear you from the side of the True God (i.e the Emperor). The Null Blades view would strip them of some of the aura of mystery, power, and terror thinking of them as gods gives them- to a Null Blade, a Daemon is not some supernatural servant of an evil divinity. It is instead more akin to a particularly powerful and dangerous beast that is understood to be given rise from one of Mankind's various failings affecting a dimension of ectoplasm. In a sense, this might actually be a more beneficial belief, as one key point of 40k is that warp entities are what we have made them. Therefore if your chapter believes in them not as awesome demons and evil gods, but instead disgusting and deadly beasts of unfortunately great potency that it is your duty to put down where they arise, they might actually be weakening those entities a small bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'd like to say, it's possible for these fellows to have an atheistic, rational approach to things without being dogmatic or deluded about it. Atheism in the sense of "Lalalala demons don't exist" is bad, because that philosophy helped caused the Horus Heresy. I agree with the, "it is possible to be athiestic" but dissagree with the "That philosophy helped cause the Horus Heresy." What caused the Horus Heresy was that Horus ended up ACKNOWLAGING them as gods, as upposed to entities. He did that because the Word Bearers refused to acknowlage that gods did not exist. The Emperor kept telling them, "Gods do not exist, I am not a god, do NOT worship me." However, the Word Bearers were like, "Fine, if you do not want to be worshipped, I will find the true gods that do." So he began his search for "gods" and found the warp entities in the Eye of Terror. From there he sent Errabus to Horus, who told tricked Horus to go to Davin, where he became corrupted with the idea that he could rule the Imperium, and also began to see them as Gods. The chaos entities want humans to worship them, because it gives them power. Humans would not worship them if they did not believe they were gods. All this being said, I believe that if the Null Blades maintained their Athiestic views (as the Emperor himself demanded of his legions), they would be completely uncorruptable (in terms of turning to chaos). In other words, as much as I believe in the Emperor, the Null Blades are some of the smartest marines out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Daeger Helsir Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 A large part of the Horus Heresy is said to have occurred in part because the Emperor taught his followers to refuse to acknowledge Chaos and such existed, in the hope that the lack of belief would cause their powers to wane. Instead it obscured the insight of his followers just enough that Chaos was able to get its claws into several of the important ones, and the rest was history. Also I'd advise you to run your posts through a spellchecker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Will do. The Word Bearers were the first to turn to Chaos (amongst the legions) because they wanted a god, and the Emperor said they did not exist. This is not satisfy them, but if they would have believed the Emperor when he said it, they would not have gone to search for the gods of the warp, and the Horus Heresy would not have happened. Horus himself, who killed one of the demons said that it was merely an alien from another dimension. The problems all came when the people REFUSED to believe that gods did not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Daeger Helsir Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 No one's saying Lorgar and co. weren't in effect the root cause/catalyst for the Heresy. Just that I recall reading somewhere about how an overly blind disbelief in chaos helped things along. Regardless though, we're getting off topic from the Null Blades, so since we both agree it's possible for them to be Reasonable Atheists, how about we find something else Nullblade related to discuss? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I concur :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 However... it's perfectly valid to have your marines be atheists in the sense that they do not credit the Ruinous Powers or their servants as 'gods.' Instead they are simply the most understandable and predictable aspect of the Immaterium, explainable by a simple premise; mankind has beliefs, these beliefs are mirrored in the Immaterium and interact with the warpstuff in a manner which creates malevolent entities. Therefore your Chapter can acknowledge that Chaos exists yet deny it its divinity- even the stoutest Ecclesiarchal preacher will not deny that the Chaos Gods are gods; he will merely say that they are evil and vile gods who must not be allowed to tear you from the side of the True God (i.e the Emperor). The Null Blades view would strip them of some of the aura of mystery, power, and terror thinking of them as gods gives them- to a Null Blade, a Daemon is not some supernatural servant of an evil divinity. It is instead more akin to a particularly powerful and dangerous beast that is understood to be given rise from one of Mankind's various failings affecting a dimension of ectoplasm. this is already exactly how my chapter views chaos. Warp energy is given form by emotion in the real world, therefore how can any of it be classed a god? they are monsters that need to be killed. End of chat. that is a Null Blade's outlook on warp entities. Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Daeger Helsir Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Ah, okay then, cool. You might want to change your wording in the IA a touch then, since the way it's currently worded it gives the impression of fingers-stuffed-in-ears "La la la Chaos doesn't exist" denial, rather than "Warp entities are just another set of ugly mean things we need to kill for the sake of the Emperor and Humanity." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 All this being said, I believe that if the Null Blades maintained their Athiestic views (as the Emperor himself demanded of his legions), they would be completely uncorruptable (in terms of turning to chaos). If you think so, then you gravely underestimate the corrupting powers of Chaos. The Black Templars are better protected against Chaos than the Null Blades ever will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 from Null Blades beliefs section "They differ to other chapters however, in that they refuse to acknowledge the existence of sentient warp powers, seeing the patrons of the archenemy as raw power, manipulated into being by the undisciplined egos of men." This sums it up perfectly imo. No need to elaborate further. Chaos "gods" are beasts given form by a galaxy of hate, no more, no less. It may be an ignorant view, but that's the way they see it. Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 All this being said, I believe that if the Null Blades maintained their Athiestic views (as the Emperor himself demanded of his legions), they would be completely uncorruptable (in terms of turning to chaos). If you think so, then you gravely underestimate the corrupting powers of Chaos. The Black Templars are better protected against Chaos than the Null Blades ever will be. I dont particularly care either way. flaws add character, I never said my marines were perfect. EDIT: on another note, I was kind of content to let this particular thread slide into obscurity as I will be tweaking it substantially over the weekend and may post a version 2.0 at some point, dependant on if I think it warrants it (dont yet know how much will end up being different). But for now, let the debate continue! Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Why ... just update the first post with the new version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 haven't decided what to change yet, may be a slight (but important) focus shift or a near total re-write, depends on what I like when I re-read it all. Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Fairly major update. Sorted coding, added artwork, tightened up most sections and most importantly they are no longer Raven guard successors! After it occured tome that their combat doctrine is just intelligent soldiering, I thought being slightly paranoid, eccentric Ultramarine successors fit the theme better than Raven guard. I still need to expand the notable action section (and cut down text on individual actions) and some final editing. Due to the schizophrenic nature of my editing, this update may contain more errors than previous updates, so if anyone notices any glaring inconsistancies or major language problems, please tell me. As always, Comments are welcome. Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulse Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I will have a read over this when i get time mate! You a fan of Mass Effect by any chance? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Yep :) I'd appreciate the feedback, they considerably different to their first version,which was pretty much just Combat doctrine. Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 I really like it. I also really like how you have the sketches, but can't help thinking, "That PDF sergeant might still be alive if he was not busy sketching the space marine." :) Silly PDF. :) Do your space marines have a ceremonial "dress" color? When I think of a Chapters paint scheme being bright blue or blood red, I often think that that is more of their "ceremonial dress" and not really their battle dress. I believe, like you, that camoflauge is best and I am sure that space marines would agree, at least in the older fluff. In fact, I saw a picture that had several diffent 'schemed scouts, each for a differant theater of combat, and the final one was in their colors, and was titled "dress camo." or something like that. So, just curious if you had a more vibrant "dress" one. (Though I guess it would be unimportant as your chapter has no real value in that area). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 Nope, nada. Training, fighting and killing is all they do brother :) Glad you like it! Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I also really like how you have the sketches, but can't help thinking, "That PDF sergeant might still be alive if he was not busy sketching the space marine." :P Silly PDF. :P Well, the pen is mightier than the sword... ...I had to, honestly. I don't have time right now but i will definitely give the IA a read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkchild130 Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 Please do! Darkchild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I believe, like you, that camoflauge is best and I am sure that space marines would agree, at least in the older fluff. Yeah, except 90% of Chapters disagree... You don't understand the mindset of Astartes. The Space Marines don't use camoflauge because not only it's waste of time and effort, but because it's contra-productive as well. The "bright" colours are weapon of SMs on its own, an weapon of psychological warfare. Marines play the role of "We are Angels of Death! Fear our Wrath!". They want to be seen, because it is moral boost for the allied forces and moral damage for their enemies in the way of "You can see us, but you cannot kill us.". Look at Panzer VI Tiger. Yes, its abilities were undeniable, but the psychological impact it has on the enemy forces was far greater, the so-called "Tiger Schreck". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 And Marines 'Fear no evil' so what do they have to hide from. The King Tiger was even bigger, slower and slightly less effective .. but it'd scare the pants off of anyone facing it. EDIT: There is at least one Chapter that uses camo ... so no big deal to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkangilos Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 By his logic, over 100 do. And do they disagree? Can you prove that 90 percent, have not, at one time or another, used camo? They will use whatever means necessary to win. If that means using camo, they will use camo. If that means being bright and vibrant, they will use bright and vibrant colors. You bring up the Tigers of WWII, but did you know that they were also often concealed with camo? You get a much better effect if they don't see you, you pop out, you kill a few in an ambush, and then you hid again. Now they know Space Marines are there (and still fear them), only now they think, "Oh gods, they can be anywhere!" So now they have to watch their backs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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