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IA: Sons of Pyron v6.0


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#76
Ecritter

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That's what I don't like.
Sea is composed of H2O molecules, but these molecules in themselves don't make a sea - so to speak.


I think it would have worked better as "The ocean is made up of seven seas, but those seas themselves don't make an ocean." Or to me that is a better representation of the Chapter.

Well I want to maintain the independence the five companies attainted and continue to feel, how do you suggest I accomplish that? I do want others to 'like' the chapter, but I also realize that I'm not going to be able to please everyone, is this just one of those instances?

I do have to say though, it does get a little repetitive with the "using flames to kill all taint" thing. I think it is said too often in the same section.


Well that is one of their biggest beliefs, but I'll see if I can reword a bit in places.

Edited by Ecritter, 04 April 2011 - 02:18 PM.


#77
Arkangilos

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Oh yeah, deffinately. I think thats all it would need is rewording.

So I take it that flamers are your favorite weapons too? ;)

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#78
Ecritter

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Every squad would have a flamer or heavy flamer ... comes from Pyron burning the Orks when it was destroyed.

I should have 2 Tac Squads painted this week, so It'll be easier to see. Dave is doing an amazing job on them for me. If they look 1/2 as good as my Termie squad I'll be pleased.

#79
Arkangilos

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Yeah, I give all of my models that can have flamers, flamers. All three of my dreads, and I believe at least 5 or 6 of my tactical squads, as well as my assault and devistators. I have even made my chapter champion have one (that looks pretty cool, because it isn't on there like a normal one).

Lol, if our chapters were to fight together on the same battlefield, there would be nothing but flames! :P

I am looking forward to seeing your men :D. Will you post pictures on this topic?

Edited by Telanicus, 05 April 2011 - 02:02 PM.

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#80
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I've added the commission link in my signature.

Here are the Chapter Master and Termie Squad.

Posted Image

Edited by Ecritter, 06 April 2011 - 03:05 AM.


#81
Ace Debonair

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Here are the Chapter Master and Termie Squad.


Neat models, for sure. :)

The SM painter pics look more grey than white, though, or at least to me.
Might be worth changing the painter stuff to match, unless that's a 'First Company only' thing.

#82
Ecritter

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It may be the lighting, the models should be a light grey. In the close up pics I have they do look more grey.

I'll have to wait till the army is done and I have the models. If its off that much I'll change then.

#83
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HOLY ;) THOSE ARE GOOD!
And on the subject of the company thing, honestly I see nothing wrong with it. But I do feel that the "Love Fiyah and hate Ork-ah-erm... :huh: ) :(
Anyways, it does seem a bit simplistic(couldn't find a more appropriate word). I can understand the mechanics behind it, but it should be reinforced elsewhere.
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#84
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v5.0 up for review and C&C.

Alot of rewording and additional text added. I hope it makes more sense now.

#85
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Any glaring mistakes or concerns? Or is this one done?

#86
NightrawenII

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After the time of weeping had ended, the Masters all gathered and it was decided that there would be no new home world for the Sons, for no other world could replace Pyron. The Master of the 1st Company assumed command of the Chapter and set it on a course of vengeance. Dividing the remaining Sons' into five new companies, the new Chapter Master sent them out with two distinct missions. First, to destroy the alien forces that had caused the death of their home world, and second, to cleanse other worlds as Pyron had done … with fire.

There was something, which was always bothering me, but I couldn't express it in words. But finaly, the idea struck the right chord. /// I blame the Empreror's gene-seed and Apothecary-less Chapter threads. :cry:

Sons of Pyron lost their Fortress-Monastery, in other words the Armoury, Forge(s), Librarium, Reclusium, Sepulchre (= place, where do you keep Dreads), Apothecarion and their 'entire' stock of gene-seed.
I don't think that is very wise to embark on Crusade of Vengeance, when you have just five plums, so to speak.

Edit:
The Sons combat doctrine closely mirrors the old adage, “the best defense is a good offense.” They prefer to use the overwhelming force of their oversized companies to crush those that stand against the Imperium, rather then sit and wait behind bunkers for enemies to attack them.
Don't get me wrong, but this sounds like they are tactically inept and use "Hulk-smash!!" combo against everyone.

I will give it more thoughtful read, but the idea struck me right now so... :jaw:

Edited by NightrawenII, 21 April 2011 - 01:09 PM.

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#87
Ecritter

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Well on the first part. How about I add something like this?

Without the support provided by the Fortress Monestary, it was assumed that the Sons would be going to their deaths. Perhaps that was their plan all along. They no longer had an amoury, no forges, no more gene-stock, all they could do was seek vengence and die like true warriors. Yet not only did they survive their crusade of vengence, they came out stronger for it.


On the second part. Perhaps, but preferring an offensive doctrine may not set them that far apart from most chapters. Defense is the realm of the IG ... I've heard many times here. Do you have any ideas to better explain their offensive nature?

Edited by Ecritter, 21 April 2011 - 01:46 PM.


#88
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I think your article has come a long way since you first started it, as rough as it has seemed Nightrawen has made some very good points, many of which I would have brought up had I found the article in its earlier incarnations. Yet through the trials of adversity we all grow and I think you have done a good job fixing the article up to make more sense and be clearer to the reader. That being said there is always room for improvement and extrapolation on certain topics for the sake of clarity.

What I really want to touch on the whole "5 companies of 200" thing you got going on. While it doesn't outright bother me one way or another I know it bothers Night and so I might suggest a means of you keeping 5 companies and justifying the lack of girth in the chapter. In order to do this your companies shouldn't be 200 strong. As a chapter that lost their homeworld, gene-stock, and everything else I think having a full 1000 members is unrealistic. I think you could possibly get away with 5 companies of 150 and claim that 150 were lost in the death of Pyron, and the remaining one hundred were casualties from the crusade that have yet to be recovered... and in order to maintain momentum and have solid reserves each company was granted an additional 50 marines to off-set any short term casualties. In order to accomplish this they would have had to abolish a couple remaining companies and assimilate them into the 5 core ones, but I think it would justify it. After all when on a crusade and lacking gene-seed materials recruitment is going to be slow and taking the time to train new recruits might not be at the forefront of the agenda. Then after the crusade slowed and the fire of their vengeance ebbed slightly (never gone, but diminished over centuries of crusading) they would have clung to their system of 150 sized companies as a contingency "until they could work back to a full strength chapter through protracted recruitment and training, making use of what little gene-seed they had available," which could take X-amount of years to accomplish.

This way they have larger companies, justified through necessity, and still have the 5 you want. It also gives the chapter a sense of wear and tear, or battle damage, while also giving them that small, elite feel I think you are going for. I mean the loss of Pyron should be more than just an emotional wound, it should have a substantial impact on how the chapter functions and I think the permanent absence of 250 marines, the loss of all the equipment and banks, not to mention recruiting grounds, all add up to make it a cataclysmic event in the history. Yet I maintain that the lack of the 250 marines is really where you can get a sense of the damage done. A Chapter that is down 1/4 of its strength due to a massive event such as the death of their home world is not something that will go away quickly. Just look at how long it took the Ultramarines to rebuild their 1st company after the Tyranid assault on Macragge. A good long while. Gives more character to the chapter in my opinion.

What do you think?

Edited by Ravenfeld, 21 April 2011 - 07:23 PM.

[size=2]"Recall the Principle Lesson." -- "Only the Spirit is Pure - The mind may be swayed, the body may fail"[/size]
[size=2]"Only the soul cradles vengeance - Become the weapon of the soul." -- "Where the mind hesitates, overcome it - Where the body fails, replace it"[/size]
[size=2]"Aspire to the condition of the Primarch - Emulate his union with steel" -- "Never waver, never retreat, never doubt."[/size]
[size=2]"The flesh is weak - The weak shall be purged - What remains is strength" -- "The flesh is weak - What remains is strength."[/size][i][b][size=2] -- [size=3]"The flesh is weak."[/size][/size][/b][/i]
 
My Iron Hand Clan Company-- [topic='275162']IA: Clan Bracchus[/topic]   <---- FINISHED!

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#89
Ecritter

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I can add this right after the split:

Due to the loss of Pyron and the marines there, the companies were only slightly over normal strength at this time.


As for current strength, remember the loss of Pyron was over 2,000 years ago. But I can add that the 200 is only on paper and that normally the companies run lower then that due to combat losses.

Following the Chapter limits set forth in the Codex Astartes, the organization structure of the Sons allows each company to maintain 200 combat ready marines. However, due to their aggressive combat doctrine, the number of combat marines is more often seen at only around 150 per company.


work?

Edited by Ecritter, 22 April 2011 - 06:01 AM.


#90
NightrawenII

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Well on the first part. How about I add something like this?

Without the support provided by the Fortress Monestary, it was assumed that the Sons would be going to their deaths. Perhaps that was their plan all along. They no longer had an amoury, no forges, no more gene-stock, all they could do was seek vengence and die like true warriors. Yet not only did they survive their crusade of vengence, they came out stronger for it.

The problem is not the result, but the process itself.

Thre are several examples of something similar:
Marines Errant: Huron has stolen nearly all the Chapter's gene-seed, dooming the Marines Errant to a slow demise.
Crimson Fists: Loss of HW, but slowly re-building. However they did the exact opposite of the Sons and their success is considered a little miracle.
Fire Hawks: I will look up this one later.

As you can see with loss of Pyron, you have written yourself into relatively hard position. You have to explain why was your Chapter successful in rebuilding their strenght, when all indicators point to otherwise.

On the second part. Perhaps, but preferring an offensive doctrine may not set them that far apart from most chapters. Defense is the realm of the IG ... I've heard many times here. Do you have any ideas to better explain their offensive nature?

They prefer to use the overwhelming force of their oversized companies to crush those that stand against the Imperium - Me likes ma hammer, let's go bash some skullz. :)

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
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Give the peasants neither life nor death.

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~ Blaise Pascal


#91
Ecritter

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I actually see the loss of the armory and forges to be more devastating then the loss of gene-stock. After all, gene-stock comes from marines and the Sons had between 5-700 living marines after the loss of Pyron. I know it takes time to grow and harvest the geneseed but its a normal process. Now the forges and armory is another thing, most likely most of the techies were on Pyron when it was lost ... but even then over time I feel that they can be rebuilt. Am I wrong? (and don't just say yes, please explain :) )

I will be thinking on this one and it may need a rewrite to explain more.

On the second part, are you saying the Sons are becoming what they hate the most ... Orks? ;)

EDIT:

Marines Errant: "Blackheart escaped with nearly all the Chapter's gene-seed, dooming the Marines Errant to a slow demise." Thats the quote I get, but taking the others you list, I just don't see it.

Crimson Fists: Down to around 100 marines with no gene-stock, now after 500 years they are back to half strength

Fire Hawks: "In 983.M41 the chapter was officially declared lost in the warp and assumed destroyed." and "As many as two hundred members of the Chapter managed to survive as the Legion of the Damned." Lost in the warp makes this a special case I believe.

Edited by Ecritter, 26 April 2011 - 12:44 PM.


#92
NightrawenII

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I actually see the loss of the armory and forges to be more devastating then the loss of gene-stock. After all, gene-stock comes from marines and the Sons had between 5-700 living marines after the loss of Pyron. I know it takes time to grow and harvest the geneseed but its a normal process.

Indeed, but how long it took to find a suitable recruiting world?

Now the forges and armory is another thing, most likely most of the techies were on Pyron when it was lost ... but even then over time I feel that they can be rebuilt. Am I wrong? (and don't just say yes, please explain :o )

The "over time" is very fitting choice of words. :D
But they have to put some effort into rebuilding the Chapter. The crusade of vengeance is exact opposite.

Crimson Fists: Down to around 100 marines with no gene-stock, now after 500 years they are back to half strength

Following the Battle of Rynn's World, the chapter is committing all available resources into rebuilding this organisation.
~
The chapter's fleet vessels are commanded by Techmarines under the Master of the Fleet, and a number of Apothecaries are also stationed aboard these ships. The presence of these experienced brothers is vital to the rebuilding of the chapter, for without the Techmarines' intricate knowledge of the workings of the Machine God. the Crimson Fists could not remain a viable fighting torce, and without the Apothecaries' knowledge of the complex process of creating new warrior brethren, the chapter would dwindle and disappear within a short span of years.
~
The chapter only narrowly escaped extinction during the destruction of its fortress-monastery. According to the genetor-adepts of the Adeptus Mechanicus, a chapter reduced to less than a company of brethren has only a 20-25% chance of survival, for the failure rate of the progenoid gland will often preclude the successful harvesting of new gene-seed, resulting in an inability to induct new brethren. It was only the chapter's superior gene-seed that saved it from extinction, for the Crimson Fists have been reduced to less than a company of brethren, yet seem more than capable of rebuilding their numbers - however it will take many decades before those numbers are at anything approaching full strength.

~ Index Astartes, Crimson Fists

Fire Hawks: "In 983.M41 the chapter was officially declared lost in the warp and assumed destroyed." and "As many as two hundred members of the Chapter managed to survive as the Legion of the Damned." Lost in the warp makes this a special case I believe.

The Fire Hawks paid for their defiance with the loss of their first home world, Zhoros... In the days after the Reign of Blood, the Fire Hawks were left in tatters, without a home and a mere handful of surviving battle brothers, and would take centuries to rebuild back to their full strenght.
~ Imperial Armour IX, Fire Hawks

The Chapter's history then falls into obscurity as this first home world was believed to have been destroyed and the Chapter is listed as either destroyed or missing in action in several records dating circa M.37. It is not until the great battles of Caberiad Wars nearly two thousand years later that the Raptors are listed with surety at full Chapter strenght.
~ Imperial Armour IX, Raptors

This reputation worked against the Chapter often, but rarely with such consequences as during the Chaos attack on Corilia during 9th Black Crusade (573.M38)... Reduced to barely two hundred surviving battle brothers... Returned at full strength after slowly rebuilding the fleet and brethen, the Lamenters were requested by the HLoT to form part of the defences in the Maelstorm Zone in 587.M41.
~ Imperial Armour IX, Lamenters

It may seem counterintuitive but in ancient warfare, fleeing from battle was usually a good way to get oneself killed.
~ Jeffrey R. Cox - Cascading Failure: The Roman Disaster at Adrianople AD 378

 

Give the peasants neither life nor death.

~ Tokugawa Ieyasu

 

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.

~ Blaise Pascal


#93
Ecritter

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I guess I should put in some more detail on the Crusade of Vengence. Covering how they rebuilt during this time. Rewrite pending I guess.

#94
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v5.2 up for review.

Somewhere along the way the position of Pyron and the new recruiting worlds got lost. I've added that back in.

Added to Recruiting and Organization some explanation as to how the chapter survived without a Fortress Monastery.

#95
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I like the story line and can honestly say it kept my attention. There are a couple part that might need a little polish, but that may just be my opinion. The reappearance of Techmarines to your Chapter just kind of happens and I wondered if they were from another Chapter or initiates that were already being trained. The other point would be the use of Sons and Daughters of Pyron and Sons of Pyron being the Chapter name. Hard to tell when you are talking about Astartes and when you are talking about the Eugenics program. Are there any male serfs in the Chapter? Just my two cents.

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#96
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I like the story line and can honestly say it kept my attention. There are a couple part that might need a little polish, but that may just be my opinion. The reappearance of Techmarines to your Chapter just kind of happens and I wondered if they were from another Chapter or initiates that were already being trained. The other point would be the use of Sons and Daughters of Pyron and Sons of Pyron being the Chapter name. Hard to tell when you are talking about Astartes and when you are talking about the Eugenics program. Are there any male serfs in the Chapter? Just my two cents.

Madwolf


Madwolf, thanks for the input, always good to see things through someone elses eyes.

- Techmarines, were already a few out with the battle companies already and some already on Mars when Pyron was destroyed. Most likely a few were rushed to Mars too post Pyron. I'll update in a few days.

- The Sons are the SMs, and those initiates to become SMs. I can change Sons in the Eugenics Program to Young Sons?

- No male serfs. Daughters fill all their roles in addition to parenting the new Sons and Daughters. That should be clear in the IA, if not please let me know.

#97
SpecialIssue

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MORE FIRE! :D

Nice short and succinct with clear theme and choler of the chapter. Not to upset the cart or anything, but just had an idea to build on this "cleanse things with fire" thing going on - ritual scarring/immolation by fire? Burns on the flesh allowed to scar into deathly white skin? Something like that would enhance their fanaticism with fire and their purity aspect at the same time...

Just an idea...

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#98
Ecritter

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MORE FIRE! :rolleyes:

Nice short and succinct with clear theme and choler of the chapter. Not to upset the cart or anything, but just had an idea to build on this "cleanse things with fire" thing going on - ritual scarring/immolation by fire? Burns on the flesh allowed to scar into deathly white skin? Something like that would enhance their fanaticism with fire and their purity aspect at the same time...

Just an idea...


Thats a cool idea ... but I just don't think it fits with my vision of purity driven SMs. Thanks for the input.

#99
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Very nice idea and professionally done. A good read ;) The miniatures are very good also. You dont paint yourself?

Edited by Crusader of Dorn, 06 May 2011 - 01:28 PM.

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#100
Ecritter

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Very nice idea and professionally done. A good read ;) The miniatures are very good also. You dont paint yourself?


Thanks and thanks, but no Dave80y did them and soon more for me. The commission link is in my sig.

Edited by Ecritter, 06 May 2011 - 02:08 PM.





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