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IA: Sons of Pyron v6.0


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#101
Sigismund Himself

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Since these guys will be fighting alongside the Gryphon Guard in the Liber campaign's Crusades for Honour, I figured I might as well critique it after reading it :)

Not satisfied to simply drive the impure from their beloved Imperium, the Sons strive to purge it with holy fire. They have pledged to burn all that stand against Holy Terra. Where the cleansing flame strikes next, only time can tell.

The use of 'holy' here makes me think that

The 35th Millennium was a tumultuous time for the Imperium of Man. In response to the ever growing threat of Chaos and the great losses suffered by Imperial forces, the High Lords of Terra ordered several foundings to bolster the numbers of the Adeptus Astartes. Under these orders, the Adeptus Mechanicus set about to organize and institute these foundings.

By the standards of the Imperium and considering that the Age of Apostasy is just around the corner, I feel that labelling it tumultuous is odd.

The last sentence above is also an example of some of the fat that can be cut from the article. We know that the Mechanicus organises foundings and we should be able to read into it without the sentence. Throughout the article there's a few more like this that can be cut to keep down the word count.

”They (the Sons) are true Angels of Death as the Emperor first envisioned them. I actually pity the impure that face them in combat.”
- Inquisitor Armon Vlox, reporting to the Ordo Xenos

A touch of MISS in my opinion here. Plus it doesn't quite fit into the 'feel' of 40k, Inquisitors get the job done by any means: no pity, no remorse etc.

The Great Crusade reached Pyron during one such period of peace. Pyron was added to the Imperium of Man and the leader of the dominant kingdom was named as Imperial Governor. As the Crusade pressed on, they could not know the course of havoc they'd set for Pyron. The wars began anew. Only now the fighting was over a new prize, the right to rule in the name of the Imperium.

Surely they would put in some provision to stop the violence in the Great Crusade. It doesn't look good to have your latest planet unable to be used as a base or part of the supply line due to the natives fighting one another. This needs to be better explained or removed.

Other notes on the Homeworld section- I think this section is badly placed. The opening little bit of the IA tells us about the chapter and then we're thrown into this section that doesn't contain a single mention of the chapter. It doesn't help with drawing the reader into the article. I would suggest moving it and/or adding more relevance to the chapter.

The Eugenics program- an interesting idea that hasn't been explored properly in a chapter (that I know of). However, I think it takes up too much space at the moment.

Currently, I don't think there's a clear picture of the chapter before the loss of their homeworld. It's hard to get a picture of how they change then. I think this probably would help us connect with the chapter better too.

I don't think you're exploring the full consequences of the eugenics program as well. A chapter is traditionally a brotherhood. In this, you have women training alongside your recruits (you even have them killing the boys in training) and then women becoming chapter serfs. What changes does this bring to the chapter's mentality?

Currently the article feels rather disjointed, I suspect because of editing and multiple versions not quite meshing with one another. There is not a good flow to it and the theme of the chapter doesn't really shine through. I'd have a look at making sure that it just flows nicer from section to section so they feel less like separate info-bytes.

Also, the theme of purity is one that has been done before, albeit not in conjunction with fire. I think that you really need to differentiate it more, perhaps by playing up the connection with fire. This could also be done by also highlighting their impossible task of eradicating Orks entirely. It's a task that they can't hope to complete but their hatred will make them try. It also explains the greater use of flame weapons, so that the Orkoid spores are eliminated. Either that or tie in more of the 'holy' hints that are mentioned occasionally.

Interesting ideas but I think the execution is just holding it back at the moment. Good luck with it :D

#102
Ecritter

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Since these guys will be fighting alongside the Gryphon Guard in the Liber campaign's Crusades for Honour, I figured I might as well critique it after reading it :tu:


Very glad to have the input, and the chance to fight alongside the Gryphon Guard.

The use of 'holy' here makes me think that


I'll work on upping the holiness factor :D

By the standards of the Imperium and considering that the Age of Apostasy is just around the corner, I feel that labelling it tumultuous is odd.

The last sentence above is also an example of some of the fat that can be cut from the article. We know that the Mechanicus organises foundings and we should be able to read into it without the sentence. Throughout the article there's a few more like this that can be cut to keep down the word count.


This has been an ongoing argument. Canon dates show that more Foundings occured during M35 then any other time period, but B&C disagrees. I think I can simply reword this to:

"In response to the ever growing threat of Chaos and the great losses suffered by Imperial forces in the 35th Millennium of Man, the High Lords of Terra ordered several foundings to bolster the numbers of the Adeptus Astartes."

As to the last sentence, I've found that more then a few, bordering on most, that write IAs here don't know how a Founding is organized and established. So I'd like to keep it in if possible.

A touch of MISS in my opinion here. Plus it doesn't quite fit into the 'feel' of 40k, Inquisitors get the job done by any means: no pity, no remorse etc.


Just some filler quotes thrown in a the last minute, can easily be removed.

Surely they would put in some provision to stop the violence in the Great Crusade. It doesn't look good to have your latest planet unable to be used as a base or part of the supply line due to the natives fighting one another. This needs to be better explained or removed.


I'll do better to explain, when the Great Crusade arrived it was a time of peace, and since the Crusade moved on pretty quickly they failed to research the planets warlike background and therefore had no real idea of the problems they'd caused by their actions.

Other notes on the Homeworld section- I think this section is badly placed. The opening little bit of the IA tells us about the chapter and then we're thrown into this section that doesn't contain a single mention of the chapter. It doesn't help with drawing the reader into the article. I would suggest moving it and/or adding more relevance to the chapter.


Well I looked at it like this, all planets existed before the SMs arrived. Any suggestions for a better place?

EDIT:

How about combining the current Homeworld and History sections into a larger History section?

The Eugenics program- an interesting idea that hasn't been explored properly in a chapter (that I know of). However, I think it takes up too much space at the moment.


The problem is that its such radical idea and so important to the article that if I cut it down I'll get the questions about how it works. I pretty much think I'm stuck with it as is for now.

Currently, I don't think there's a clear picture of the chapter before the loss of their homeworld. It's hard to get a picture of how they change then. I think this probably would help us connect with the chapter better too.


This will affect our Campaign 2B alot and I will need to expand it further. Thats one way the Campaign is helping me. Early years of the Sons would show them as being more UM-like in their nature. As a UM successor that should be an understood fact, but I will need to expand to include it more.

I don't think you're exploring the full consequences of the eugenics program as well. A chapter is traditionally a brotherhood. In this, you have women training alongside your recruits (you even have them killing the boys in training) and then women becoming chapter serfs. What changes does this bring to the chapter's mentality?


I thought I'd covered this. They are one big disfunctional family. But since you bring it up, perhaps I haven't done it well enough and I'll need to work on it.

Currently the article feels rather disjointed, I suspect because of editing and multiple versions not quite meshing with one another. There is not a good flow to it and the theme of the chapter doesn't really shine through. I'd have a look at making sure that it just flows nicer from section to section so they feel less like separate info-bytes.


I blame the edits. I only realized a few weeks ago that the location of Pyron had completely been lost in the edits and had to add it back in. I'll have to work on this.

Also, the theme of purity is one that has been done before, albeit not in conjunction with fire. I think that you really need to differentiate it more, perhaps by playing up the connection with fire. This could also be done by also highlighting their impossible task of eradicating Orks entirely. It's a task that they can't hope to complete but their hatred will make them try. It also explains the greater use of flame weapons, so that the Orkoid spores are eliminated. Either that or tie in more of the 'holy' hints that are mentioned occasionally.


I'll have to work on this more.

Interesting ideas but I think the execution is just holding it back at the moment. Good luck with it :D


Thank you for taking the time to review my Sons. I'll do my best to make them come to life and flow better.

Edited by Ecritter, 23 May 2011 - 06:14 AM.


#103
Sigismund Himself

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I'll do better to explain, when the Great Crusade arrived it was a time of peace, and since the Crusade moved on pretty quickly they failed to research the planets warlike background and therefore had no real idea of the problems they'd caused by their actions.

Okay, makes much more sense :lol:

Well I looked at it like this, all planets existed before the SMs arrived. Any suggestions for a better place?

EDIT:

How about combining the current Homeworld and History sections into a larger History section?

Not sure... I always think an IA should start off with the most important section for the chapter that lays out their character the most. For most this is the Origins or History. Currently, the most important part of the Sons' character is their hate and how this came about. I don't see the eugenics program as that important to their actual character, though I didn't get the 'dysfunctional family' idea you were trying to put into it so that might be why.

The problem is that its such radical idea and so important to the article that if I cut it down I'll get the questions about how it works. I pretty much think I'm stuck with it as is for now.

I'd just look at trying to be more concise with it, less words with the same ideas. But I agree there's better things to focus on for the moment.

I thought I'd covered this. They are one big disfunctional family. But since you bring it up, perhaps I haven't done it well enough and I'll need to work on it.

Wasn't getting this while reading. I know what it feels like, I've had Oct and Aurelius tell me to put the Gryphon Guard with 'more slow death' when I think every sentence works its way back to their dying somehow...

#104
Ecritter

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v6 posted.

Updated Homeworld slightly

Updated Beliefs with "A True Family" section

Updated Organization to show how they were before the fall of Pyron

Updated "Falling Behind" sidebar slightly

#105
Marshal Rohr

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For all our differing opinions, this chapter is very good.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#106
Ecritter

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For all our differing opinions, this chapter is very good.


Thank you. I've put a lot of time, work and love into this.

EDIT:

And I had a lot of help from others here.

Edited by Ecritter, 03 June 2011 - 07:11 PM.


#107
Walter Payton

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Hello,

The 35th Millennium was a tumultuous time for the Imperium of Man.


In fact, it was tumultuous time for both of them; M35 was during the Nova Terra Interregnum, or the Age of the Two Imperiums. You could get that in there.

Originally discovered sometime during the Dark Age of Technology, the first colonist to arrive noted the large number of towering volcanoes dotting the planet's surface and aptly named it Pyron. As more and more colonists arrived, several distinct kingdoms developed and their location near the edge of what is now the Imperium of Man and on the border of Segmentums Ultima and Tempestus, Pyron thrived as a hub for galactic trade.


I'd be wary of including history from the Age of Strife as concrete fact; the Imperium knows very little about that era. I would add something qualitative like: "It is conjectured that," or "It is speculated." Same goes for the wars.

Heronus began to press worthy young girls into taking part in the games.


Loyalist traitors, now this?!? I should have guessed ;)

As the first of these girls began to reach maturity, Heronus initiated his Eugenics Program and moved on to the next phase of his plan by adding adult men to the games. The men who excelled in the games would of course not be eligible to become Space Marines, as they were much too old to take part in the conversion of their bodies using the geneseed, but they were perfect for the Eugenics Program. The men who excelled in the games would have their genetic material harvested. Under Heronus' direction, chapter Apothecaries used the genetic material to impregnate the girls.


I might try to come up with a better name than "Eugenics program." That's what it was, not a designation. It would be like naming a Strike Cruiser the Strike Cruiser.

for the first time since the Primarchs … Space Marines were created from worthy parents and trained from birth to be ultimate warriors.


Why the elipsis? And you might want to tone that down a little.

------------------------

This is very impressive, and you managed to end the "Astartes sausagefest" quite plausibly.

Kudos.

"Never die easy."


#108
Ecritter

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Thanks for the great info and for taking the time to C&C my Chapter.

The 35th Millennium was a tumultuous time for the Imperium of Man.


In fact, it was tumultuous time for both of them; M35 was during the Nova Terra Interregnum, or the Age of the Two Imperiums. You could get that in there.


Thanks for the info, I'll add that to my arguements. But I'll leave it to the reader to understand the multitude of problems the Imperium had in M35.

Originally discovered sometime during the Dark Age of Technology, the first colonist to arrive noted the large number of towering volcanoes dotting the planet's surface and aptly named it Pyron. As more and more colonists arrived, several distinct kingdoms developed and their location near the edge of what is now the Imperium of Man and on the border of Segmentums Ultima and Tempestus, Pyron thrived as a hub for galactic trade.


I'd be wary of including history from the Age of Strife as concrete fact; the Imperium knows very little about that era. I would add something qualitative like: "It is conjectured that," or "It is speculated." Same goes for the wars.


Well I see the colonists have a record of when the planet was discovered at least. Though I'm considering it at the moment.

Heronus began to press worthy young girls into taking part in the games.


Loyalist traitors, now this?!? I should have guessed :P


Do you think I should make them from loyalist traitor geneseed as well? <_<

Actually this makes way more sense then what the SMs do now. Or at least to me it does.

As the first of these girls began to reach maturity, Heronus initiated his Eugenics Program and moved on to the next phase of his plan by adding adult men to the games. The men who excelled in the games would of course not be eligible to become Space Marines, as they were much too old to take part in the conversion of their bodies using the geneseed, but they were perfect for the Eugenics Program. The men who excelled in the games would have their genetic material harvested. Under Heronus' direction, chapter Apothecaries used the genetic material to impregnate the girls.


I might try to come up with a better name than "Eugenics program." That's what it was, not a designation. It would be like naming a Strike Cruiser the Strike Cruiser.


Sometimes it best to call a duck a duck. (I yell that from my Battlebarge the Really Big Ship)

for the first time since the Primarchs … Space Marines were created from worthy parents and trained from birth to be ultimate warriors.


Why the elipsis? And you might want to tone that down a little.


Its there to cause a long pause for the reader, and its a key point in the Chapter ... read as very important.

This is very impressive, and you managed to end the "Astartes sausagefest" quite plausibly.

Kudos.


It was never my intention, but thank you. I just wanted a Spartan environment (including very beautiful Spartan women).

Edited by Ecritter, 09 June 2011 - 02:10 PM.


#109
Ecritter

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Well, Chaplain, tac squad and first of the speeders is posted on the commission page. That means we're coming close to the end of the project.

Are there any other comments or concerns for my Sons ... or are they done?

Edited by Ecritter, 15 July 2011 - 06:17 AM.


#110
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Done and dusted me thinks.

#111
Marshal Rohr

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If the Librarium was still open for submission these guys would be good to go.

You've definitely put in the work to make it complete and thought out and its very polished.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#112
Ecritter

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Is the Librarium ever gonna open again?

#113
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Yes. It's gonna be a while though - there's a lot to be done. :(

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#114
Dark Apostle Thirst

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I saw the commission on this chapter, and decided to read the IA for them, which led me here...

I find myself disagreeing with the above posts, unless the 'finished' version (a saying on Imperial Guard armies springs to mind) isn't on the first post?

------------

One of the very critiques, though for a different draft, saw the same issue I have.

It lacks subtlety.

The same thing is repeated throughout the entire IA... it's not pure, burn it. While I find myself drawn to that mentality, I stopped about two thirds of the way through the IA simply because my expression was this - :lol: That's not good, FYI :D

The character of the chapter has room for depth. You could very easily expand their hatred and their mercy. One of the best ways to do this is to describe how they interact with other chapters. more so than the couple of sentences about how they believe they are purer than a few chapters but the rest are all peachy keen. Instituational relationships are rarely so simple.


EDIT: I'm looking at the IA again, with a more critical viewpoint now. There are a few minor nitpicks on polishing it, but other than that I haven't found any other issues with the IA.

Also, the homeworld, which has a ridiculouslly long and bloody history (which means nothing technically, but it makes the planet seem older) doesn't blow up until the ork invasion arrived. Did the orks do something? Did they try and land their space hulk on it? Right now, it breaks the suspension of disbelief right when the IA is beginning to really start.

I mean no offence with this, simply pointing out the issues I see as a reader.

Edited by Dark Apostle Thirst, 18 July 2011 - 05:06 AM.


#115
Ecritter

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It lacks subtlety.


I agree, but don't consider that a bad thing. I feel a more direct approach with the Sons to work better.

The same thing is repeated throughout the entire IA... it's not pure, burn it. While I find myself drawn to that mentality, I stopped about two thirds of the way through the IA simply because my expression was this - :mellow: That's not good, FYI :D


Its purposeful on my part. Purity is key to the mindset of the Sons ... they began much like any other UM successor, but things have led them down this path.

The character of the chapter has room for depth. You could very easily expand their hatred and their mercy. One of the best ways to do this is to describe how they interact with other chapters. more so than the couple of sentences about how they believe they are purer than a few chapters but the rest are all peachy keen. Instituational relationships are rarely so simple.


Funny but in the scenario that we're working on as a group, I've found the Sons to be downright distrusted for their views. Its not that they feel their more pure ... its that they push themselves to be more pure. Other chapters lack this drive in their eyes.


Also, the homeworld, which has a ridiculouslly long and bloody history (which means nothing technically, but it makes the planet seem older) doesn't blow up until the ork invasion arrived. Did the orks do something? Did they try and land their space hulk on it? Right now, it breaks the suspension of disbelief right when the IA is beginning to really start.


That's the mystery. The chapter believes that Pyron destroyed itself to stop the Orks ... most likely this is not the case. Perhaps the highly volcanic planet just happened to reach a point of major activity when the Orks arrived ... again most likely not. More then likely, the fact that the chapter's base was in a very large volcano, housed many weapons of mass destruction, and was being assaulted by perhaps thousands of Orks was the cause. In the end we're never really know since everyone planetside died. A little mystery is a good thing.

I mean no offence with this, simply pointing out the issues I see as a reader.


None taken, I'm glad to recieve the feedback and look forward to more.




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